[OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading

[Sukrim]

Secondly, is there any way you could add your own FRR calculation to your bot? For example, could I either create or modify a bot that simply duplicates the current FRR calculation and offers at that rate?

It is really hard, if not impossible, to calculate the FRR from publicly available data unfortunately.

[Bagpipe]

This doesn't imply that at all, what it does imply is that the site that you are using to receive market data may not display it in real time. Secondly, where is this "trade floor" that you can call using a telephone? I have not heard of it, though I did start Satoshi Square in New York, and that was probably the closest there has been to a trading pit. Also, I don't think Microsoft Quickbasic is a matching engine, but I could be wrong about that, I don't use it.

Either way, we have a major upgrade in the works, which has been announced, and should put us solidly in the lead as far as speed, but to be fair, it isn't hard to be fast when you have such low volume...

Thank you for the response.

Two things if I may, Mr. president.

ONE:
a) the problem is at bitfinex and I was stupid enough not to notice it earlier and adequately abuse it like some others did.
b) the problem was noticed before by many others; some of which wanted to trade some 10k or more coins with you. (left)
c) trade floor as in oldschool NYSE
d) you are missing the problem by a mile
e) proper architecture demands a separate order matching server unconnected to the internet, only to the UI server

Now, six:
last time I wrote to btc-e to improve their relationship and cooperation with Bitcoinwisdom.com, they PROMPTLY done so, and extended their public API service. I just pointed out HOW MUCH the trading volume on their site dropped when Bitcoinwisdom went down (or just btc-e connect to bitcoinwisdom.)

seven:
"it isn't hard to be fast when you have such low volume..." -- it has proven to be very hard for you so far

eight:
your swap system has very, very high fees; just because the annual rate is 30%, it doesn't mean it will be my cost. I painstakingly 'bought' some swaps and in 2 hours they were gone. Why? Because I did some small trades and the borrowed dollars were returned, together with huge fees for me. Basically what this means is: "people don't dare to trade and don't put market orders in", which results in lower site turnover than what it would have been. The other option is that you will bleed on the fees heavily. Due to this I'm seriously considering to become a heretic and convert to huobism.

[mjr]

Look, you are entitled to make whatever choices you like. We have around 4X the volume of BTC-E, but if you like them better, that is the whole reason for a market. Our volume is increasing daily, and we are closing in on 1 million coins over the trailing 30 days (we currently are at around 966k). You are comparing things that don't exist (The bitcoin trade floor...where? NYSE never offered this).

We have a lot of wonderful customers, who like what we are offering. We have some of the lowest fees, and as far as your swap example, I am confused. If you close your position, you are ending the swap contracts early, the swap provider cannot end it early. As far as fees, you can pick what you would like to pay if you want margin, that is why there is a market. If you are providing swaps, you are only paying fees on profits you have made.

Either way, like I said, pick whatever exchange works best for you. Before I ever started working here, I had already chosen Bitfinex as my preferred exchange. I don't regret that choice, and I still think it is the best platform out there. I am working every  day to make it better.

[atlosas]

Bitfinex down?

[HowardF]

not for me...

[dreamspark]

Bitfinex down?

not for me...

It was for a very short time earlier. Everything's now back to normal.

[Bagpipe]

...

I observed and checked and yes:
the bitfinex site lag (not the web UI, but the placing and processing of orders) has intermittent lag, choke points.
Sometimes an market order of 0.01 btc is executed quickly, but sometimes... it takes FOUR seconds just to acknowledge that the order was placed.
So I can imagine the same is true for all the API.

Of course, such data lag causes price extremes, as people push in many market orders and all of them will be executed AT ONCE agains an empty orderbook, awarding worst possible outcomes ;-)

[Bagpipe]

You are comparing things that don't exist (The bitcoin trade floor...where? NYSE never offered this).

Who said THAT? I had a very specific example of Bitfinex taking 30 seconds between me placing an order and getting market results back. I protested that 30 seconds is just too much.

...as far as your swap example, I am confused. If you close your position, you are ending the swap contracts early... ...you can pick what you would like to pay if you want margin...
...I still think it is the best platform out there. I am working every  day to make it better.

Okay then. Can you make flash swaps that are loaned by the minute? I saw above how somebody was very happy to have earned much, much more from the less-than-one-day swaps than the standard rate, but then; how about the daytraders?

[tekke]

Hi! I would like to offer some Bitcoins in the Liquidity Providing market , But I can't find the way to do it. I've seen the Offer Swap Tab , but it is just for USD , as far as I'm concerned.

So if anybody could point me where I could offer my Btc as swappable, that would be great.
Thanks

[milady]

Bitfinex down?

not for me...

It was for a very short time earlier. Everything's now back to normal.

Since this problem I have the message "you can not place new orders" when I try to create an order, for info I have less than 50 orders placed and my position was very small (0.02 BTC) when the problem started. Any idea?   

[HowardF]

Hi! I would like to offer some Bitcoins in the Liquidity Providing market , But I can't find the way to do it. I've seen the Offer Swap Tab , but it is just for USD , as far as I'm concerned.

So if anybody could point me where I could offer my Btc as swappable, that would be great.
Thanks

right below the main tabs there should be a smaller row of tabs for USD / BTC / LTC / TH1 .  Click the BTC one to offer BTC for swap.

[tekke]

Hi! I would like to offer some Bitcoins in the Liquidity Providing market , But I can't find the way to do it. I've seen the Offer Swap Tab , but it is just for USD , as far as I'm concerned.

So if anybody could point me where I could offer my Btc as swappable, that would be great.
Thanks

right below the main tabs there should be a smaller row of tabs for USD / BTC / LTC / TH1 .  Click the BTC one to offer BTC for swap.

Thanks a lot!

[MustMan]

First off, this was my suggestion a while ago, and NO, that is not what would happen at all, because why would EVERYONE pick '-0.0001%'? Some people would pick  '-0.01%' or -0.02%', and I still don't think that the "wall" is a valid complaint. It means that here is a bunch of offers which NOBODY TOOK. That means someone else's offer was taken. It means that all those using the FRR are NOT competing because they don't have active swaps. I love how people keep saying "you aren't going to get good rates using FRR, you should actively manage or use a bot", and then say that they can't compete with the FRR.

The problem with the FRR is that it creates a ton of offers at a very specific price point ( the wall ), which becomes so large that any active lenders are going to specifically target that number to undercut (otherwise we simply can't make enough money to be worthwhile).  That means that unless there is a HUGH flash run, the FRR will constantly go down, because all the lends going out are below THAT SPECIFIC point.  By spreading pending loans out along a much wider range, even with millions in pending loans, each specific price point would likely have very little waiting, so active traders would have more flexibility in choosing a target to undercut.  This would create a much more natural moving average, up in heavy demand, down in light demand.  As it is right now, I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of loans are always taken out just a few point below the FRR, which isn't a natural price flow at all, but a permanent strong downward pressure, regardless of current demand.

Secondly, is there any way you could add your own FRR calculation to your bot? For example, could I either create or modify a bot that simply duplicates the current FRR calculation and offers at that rate? Again, I think it is interesting, because if everyone simply chose to use that calculation (as they ARE doing right now), the situation would be identical (besides the floating of the rate) and you would still get a "wall".

I wouldn't be able to create my own FRR unless I had access to all active loans via the API. Well, I could probably fudge something pretty close together based on historic market data, etc, but why would I want to?  I'm only interested in algorithms that spread out offers, so loans can go out in a more natural spread.

I just think that the "wall" that people are complaining about will always exist in that there are a lot of people competing for a fixed amount of demand, the people willing to go the lowest are the ones who make ANY return, and right now, you have people who are using the FRR in order to passively gain returns staying OUT of that competition at least some of the time (whenever there is a wall).

I disagree completely.  If there would "always be a wall", then why doesn't this carry over to buying and selling coins?  I don't always see walls on the orderbooks, yet we're competing for limited supply and  demand there.  Walls are not common in a traditional market, and are almost always the result of a single entity attempting to manipulate  the market.  Its just in relation to FRR, Bitfinx itself is the manipulator.

So even though some people might complain, others seem to be jumping in front to push that rate lower...

We're complaining about the fact that the market feels very controlled and manipulated.  If it were a natural flow market, even if the rates went lower as a result, I wouldn't complain.  I would be happy to compete in a natural market, whatever the result.

It continues to grow, because in my opinion, it offers an extremely great risk to reward ratio.

Despite my complaints above, I agree with this completely.  That's why I'm still here, and its why I care.  I'd hate to see this become untrue...  

I agree with your points, and I am really glad you are part of this discussion now. That is the most concisely someone has summed up the current problems with the FRR, and it was why I suggested allowing a delta to offset from this current number. The other side of it that we are working on, is creating an FRR that moves more fluidly, this would mean that you couldn't just "set it and forget it" underneath the FRR, because that number would change every hour, and track the market better.

The part that always frustrates me, and why I like your comment, is because you don't have a rate agenda in mind. If the rate lowers without the FRR, you are ok with that. So, it is the most intellectually honest critique. Just wanted to say thanks.

I must say you are not that smart than I thought you should be.

You always preconceived with the notion that everyone arguing with FRR issues here must  "have a rate agenda in mind".

The truth is most of people discussing FRR here cares more about free flow rates than kind of rate in their mind.
and this man-made distorted FRR system is broken as I said previously.

As HowardF said it well: Bitfinx itself is the manipulator.
and it is you Bitfinx that causes swarp rates not flow freely.

If it were a free flow swap market, nobody would complain and should not complain.  

Because everybody would be happy to compete in this natural free market no matter how lower the rates is.

Edit: Despite you dealing with FRR badly,
I still think your are the best BTC exchange I can see and willing honestly communicate with its customers on public forum !

Edit2: imo, just keep the FRR only for reference , don't let it be the option to autolend, and this free the swarp markets !

[LeChatNoir]

I'm trying to use the API call for cancelling multiple orders at once but it doesn't work.


If i post a request with the following JSONpayload:

{"request":"/v1/order/cancel/multi","nonce":"311508580","order_ids":[{"order_id":"140046162"},{"order_id":"140046163"},{"order_id":"140046164"}]}


I receive the response:

{'result':'Orders cancelled'}


But the orders are not really cancelled, they remain opened.
What am i doing wrong?

EDIT:
Thx to Raphael i solved this, the correct payload should be:
{"request":"/v1/order/cancel/multi","nonce":"311508580","order_ids":[140046162,140046163,140046164]}

[milady]

Bitfinex down?

not for me...

It was for a very short time earlier. Everything's now back to normal.

Since this problem I have the message "you can not place new orders" when I try to create an order, for info I have less than 50 orders placed and my position was very small (0.02 BTC) when the problem started. Any idea?   

Problem solved a few minutes ago (still I don't know why I had it, is there a limit on the number of orders placed in a day?)

[HowardF]

Problem solved a few minutes ago (still I don't know why I had it, is there a limit on the number of orders placed in a day?)

Not that I know of, though I could be wrong.  If there was a limit per day I'm pretty sure some of my bots would have hit it by now.  There is a limit on API calls, but even that is a pretty high limit.  My bots almost never hit it.

[milady]

Thanks for the answer, I don't use API, I enter the orders manually but they can be more or less one hundred some days (and I cancel some). Maybe it was a bug...Otherwise until then very satisfied with Bitfinex order execution.

[gog1]

First off, this was my suggestion a while ago, and NO, that is not what would happen at all, because why would EVERYONE pick '-0.0001%'? Some people would pick  '-0.01%' or -0.02%', and I still don't think that the "wall" is a valid complaint. It means that here is a bunch of offers which NOBODY TOOK. That means someone else's offer was taken. It means that all those using the FRR are NOT competing because they don't have active swaps. I love how people keep saying "you aren't going to get good rates using FRR, you should actively manage or use a bot", and then say that they can't compete with the FRR.

The problem with the FRR is that it creates a ton of offers at a very specific price point ( the wall ), which becomes so large that any active lenders are going to specifically target that number to undercut (otherwise we simply can't make enough money to be worthwhile).  That means that unless there is a HUGH flash run, the FRR will constantly go down, because all the lends going out are below THAT SPECIFIC point.  By spreading pending loans out along a much wider range, even with millions in pending loans, each specific price point would likely have very little waiting, so active traders would have more flexibility in choosing a target to undercut.  This would create a much more natural moving average, up in heavy demand, down in light demand.  As it is right now, I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of loans are always taken out just a few point below the FRR, which isn't a natural price flow at all, but a permanent strong downward pressure, regardless of current demand.

Secondly, is there any way you could add your own FRR calculation to your bot? For example, could I either create or modify a bot that simply duplicates the current FRR calculation and offers at that rate? Again, I think it is interesting, because if everyone simply chose to use that calculation (as they ARE doing right now), the situation would be identical (besides the floating of the rate) and you would still get a "wall".

I wouldn't be able to create my own FRR unless I had access to all active loans via the API. Well, I could probably fudge something pretty close together based on historic market data, etc, but why would I want to?  I'm only interested in algorithms that spread out offers, so loans can go out in a more natural spread.

I just think that the "wall" that people are complaining about will always exist in that there are a lot of people competing for a fixed amount of demand, the people willing to go the lowest are the ones who make ANY return, and right now, you have people who are using the FRR in order to passively gain returns staying OUT of that competition at least some of the time (whenever there is a wall).

I disagree completely.  If there would "always be a wall", then why doesn't this carry over to buying and selling coins?  I don't always see walls on the orderbooks, yet we're competing for limited supply and  demand there.  Walls are not common in a traditional market, and are almost always the result of a single entity attempting to manipulate  the market.  Its just in relation to FRR, Bitfinx itself is the manipulator.

So even though some people might complain, others seem to be jumping in front to push that rate lower...

We're complaining about the fact that the market feels very controlled and manipulated.  If it were a natural flow market, even if the rates went lower as a result, I wouldn't complain.  I would be happy to compete in a natural market, whatever the result.

It continues to grow, because in my opinion, it offers an extremely great risk to reward ratio.

Despite my complaints above, I agree with this completely.  That's why I'm still here, and its why I care.  I'd hate to see this become untrue...  

I agree with your points, and I am really glad you are part of this discussion now. That is the most concisely someone has summed up the current problems with the FRR, and it was why I suggested allowing a delta to offset from this current number. The other side of it that we are working on, is creating an FRR that moves more fluidly, this would mean that you couldn't just "set it and forget it" underneath the FRR, because that number would change every hour, and track the market better.

The part that always frustrates me, and why I like your comment, is because you don't have a rate agenda in mind. If the rate lowers without the FRR, you are ok with that. So, it is the most intellectually honest critique. Just wanted to say thanks.

I must say you are not that smart than I thought you should be.

You always preconceived with the notion that everyone arguing with FRR issues here must  "have a rate agenda in mind".

The truth is most of people discussing FRR here cares more about free flow rates than kind of rate in their mind.
and this man-made distorted FRR system is broken as I said previously.

As HowardF said it well: Bitfinx itself is the manipulator.
and it is you Bitfinx that causes swarp rates not flow freely.

If it were a free flow swap market, nobody would complain and should not complain.  

Because everybody would be happy to compete in this natural free market no matter how lower the rates is.

Edit: Despite you dealing with FRR badly,
I still think your are the best BTC exchange I can see and willing honestly communicate with its customers on public forum !

Edit2: imo, just keep the FRR only for reference , don't let it be the option to autolend, and this free the swarp markets !

one of the thing that amazes me is, whether one has a 'rate agenda in mind' or not is irrelevant to this problem / solution.  I can only see BFX getting more in terms of trading fees and lending fees by fixing this god damn thing!

[HowardF]

wow, someone has a million dollar swap offer on the books at .75%, but for only 2 days....  I guess thats one method....   

[noggin-scratcher]

wow, someone has a million dollar swap offer on the books at .75%, but for only 2 days....  I guess thats one method....   

Strange strategy... if someone wanted to pay me 0.75%/day on $1M, I think I'd let them keep doing that for just about as long as they wanted.