Can KNCMiner really deliver 28 nanometers?

[Anenome5]

They produced a working Mars FPGA based on their ASIC design at least. That proves at least chip-designing chops and the ability to code it to a working state.

Actually, you would normally develop an ASIC based on a FPGA design and not vice versa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPGA_prototype

Yes, but there are certain pitfalls when you go to actually tape-out that takes seasoning and sophisticated simulation software to know how to avoid. BFL seems to have hit these snags considerably. If anyone can avoid them, it's an org such as Orsoc.

Saying that an ASIC company "has FPGA experience" is as informative as saying that Albert Einstein knew  arithmetics. There's simply NO way for an ASIC company not to know about FPGAs.

That's basically my point. Just having shipped FPGAs doesn't mean BFL could make an easy transition into ASICs.

You would expect an airline pilot to be able to land a single-engine airplane, but you would not necessarily expect a single-engine pilot to land an A380, roger ?

Indeed. So we'd be calling KNC true airline pilots, and BFL experienced in little more than Cessnas, whereas Avalon is somewhere in the middle to where at least they pulled off shipping.

[coinedBit]

You would expect an airline pilot to be able to land a single-engine airplane, but you would not necessarily expect a single-engine pilot to land an A380, roger ?

Indeed. So we'd be calling KNC true airline pilots, and BFL experienced in little more than Cessnas, whereas Avalon is somewhere in the middle to where at least they pulled off shipping.

Well, at least for the time being, I beg to differ, I will only call someone a "true airline pilot" once I have seen him actually fly, takeoff and land an airliner - but without such a track record, it's all hearsay, because I haven't actually seen too many ASIC vendors actually deliver upon their promises, despite some of them appearing more legit than others admittedly.

[aeronautical]

If anyone can deliver it's the guys from opencores.org and theres a very strong link between them and KnCminer. I would in fact say that their normal side of there business at ORSoc
was a little slow because of the EU problems so they simply turned there attention to Bitcoin. There starting position would have been nothing like BFL and Avalon, their starting experience
could only be bettered by someone like Cadence Design Systems who have been buying up industrial IP core for some years and bought lots electronics CAD companies for the past decade.
So the next step up in hardware design would be a contracted CDS by a larger company that wanted to really make an impact or damage Bitcoin.
Lots of the major E-CAD companies used opencores as a starting based for design work. I know i worked for CDS.

[KS]

If anyone can deliver it's the guys from opencores.org and theres a very strong link between them and KnCminer. I would in fact say that their normal side of there business at ORSoc
was a little slow because of the EU problems so they simply turned there attention to Bitcoin. There starting position would have been nothing like BFL and Avalon, their starting experience
could only be bettered by someone like Cadence Design Systems who have been buying up industrial IP core for some years and bought lots electronics CAD companies for the past decade.
So the next step up in hardware design would be a contracted CDS by a larger company that wanted to really make an impact or damage Bitcoin.
Lots of the major E-CAD companies used opencores as a starting based for design work. I know i worked for CDS.

But they are entering a whole new ballgame: shipping complete retail products.

Designing the core is one thing, turning it into a product and managing the whole pipeline is quite another. These are two completely different businesses.

[Anenome5]

If anyone can deliver it's the guys from opencores.org and theres a very strong link between them and KnCminer. I would in fact say that their normal side of there business at ORSoc
was a little slow because of the EU problems so they simply turned there attention to Bitcoin. There starting position would have been nothing like BFL and Avalon, their starting experience
could only be bettered by someone like Cadence Design Systems who have been buying up industrial IP core for some years and bought lots electronics CAD companies for the past decade.
So the next step up in hardware design would be a contracted CDS by a larger company that wanted to really make an impact or damage Bitcoin.
Lots of the major E-CAD companies used opencores as a starting based for design work. I know i worked for CDS.

But they are entering a whole new ballgame: shipping complete retail products.

Designing the core is one thing, turning it into a product and managing the whole pipeline is quite another. These are two completely different businesses.

They have a company making them, they have a company assembling them, what makes you think they don't have a company shipping them too?

[aeronautical]

I think the others ASIC companies got them selves in a tangle with issues like setting up SMT lines, not sure why you would bother.
I think they will get it done and in a reasonable manner so long as they use a contract manufacture and good shipping logistics.
ORSoc are smart, way above the starting point of BLF, reading the blogs it nearly sound like there's some bitchy comments and right now and everyone is an expert SHA 256 ASIC designer.

But like i said for a team at CDS to crank out a 28nm chip would be no problem that wiped the Bitcoin market so hard, they are doing all day long go check out the IP list at
http://ChipEstimate.com

[J35st3r]

But they are entering a whole new ballgame: shipping complete retail products.

Designing the core is one thing, turning it into a product and managing the whole pipeline is quite another. These are two completely different businesses.

They have a company making them, they have a company assembling them, what makes you think they don't have a company shipping them too?

What's more, they will be shipping prototypes. They don't even have a chip test strategy in place yet! It will be several months after first silicon that they will be in a position to ship production quality goods. But in this respect they are in exactly the same boat as Avalon and BFL. Welcome to the bleeding edge of electronics design

[KS]

If anyone can deliver it's the guys from opencores.org and theres a very strong link between them and KnCminer. I would in fact say that their normal side of there business at ORSoc
was a little slow because of the EU problems so they simply turned there attention to Bitcoin. There starting position would have been nothing like BFL and Avalon, their starting experience
could only be bettered by someone like Cadence Design Systems who have been buying up industrial IP core for some years and bought lots electronics CAD companies for the past decade.
So the next step up in hardware design would be a contracted CDS by a larger company that wanted to really make an impact or damage Bitcoin.
Lots of the major E-CAD companies used opencores as a starting based for design work. I know i worked for CDS.

But they are entering a whole new ballgame: shipping complete retail products.

Designing the core is one thing, turning it into a product and managing the whole pipeline is quite another. These are two completely different businesses.

They have a company making them, they have a company assembling them, what makes you think they don't have a company shipping them too?

Not what I said.

I meant they're going from and OEM/ODM business to a full retail business.  A completely different beast. Already they don't have enough personnel just for support. So, like the others, they're bound to run into snags, which means delays. I'm sure they can iron things out eventually (basically like everyone before them), if they are serious about staying in business. As I said many times already: it's wait and see time.

[Bitcoinorama]

Yo, update!:

Re: BitcoinOrama Report on the KnCminer/OrSoC Open-day Mon 10/06/13 (Stockholm)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=232852.msg2503674#msg2503674

Haz videoz!!

[KS]

So they ARE using Altera, Stratix4 (not 5 - so Quartus II?)...only full ASIC instead of HardCopy, but on the fab. So it's either Altera or eASIC (FPGA agnostic) or another 3rd party? meh...

tic toc

[tacotime]

It's kind of funny hearing everyone talk about ORSoC like they're some kind of master chip designing company...  They're listed on LinkedIn as having between 11 and 50 employees.  Butterfly Labs, comparably, has about 40 employees.

[dree12]

It's kind of funny hearing everyone talk about ORSoC like they're some kind of master chip designing company...  They're listed on LinkedIn as having between 11 and 50 employees.  Butterfly Labs, comparably, has about 40 employees.

# of employees doesn't really matter. Avalon has far fewer than BFL, but finished earlier. ORSoC's employees are probably more efficient than BFL's, especially when you consider Josh Zerlan is included in that 40 BFL employees.

[Anenome5]

It's kind of funny hearing everyone talk about ORSoC like they're some kind of master chip designing company...  They're listed on LinkedIn as having between 11 and 50 employees.  Butterfly Labs, comparably, has about 40 employees.

Lol, and yet Orsoc still has infinity-times more chip designers, since BFL employs -zero-. Orsoc employs at least 4 people who are outright ASIC designers, professionally and full-time.

[MrHempstock]

Thanks, guys. This thread has given me more information about and insight into KNCminer than some threads that were much, MUCH longer.
 

[AstroBoy]

I'm glad this thread exists.  I was curious about KNCminer as it is one of two 28nm ASIC producers at the moment ActiveMining (a.k.a VMC)  is going with a Standard 28nm design.  It'll be interesting who hits the market first and who hits their power and hashing targets.  Both are using eASIC too which really evens the odds.

It'll be fun watching in September!

[CoinHoarder]

I will be really surprised if KNC keeps their timeline.

They are the next BFL. You heard it here first. 

If it makes you feel any better, Avalon is the first new BFL anyways (delays, customer service, etc.).

[sickpig]

I'm glad this thread exists.  I was curious about KNCminer as it is one of two 28nm ASIC producers at the moment ActiveMining (a.k.a VMC)  is going with a Standard 28nm design.  It'll be interesting who hits the market first and who hits their power and hashing targets.  Both are using eASIC too which really evens the odds.

It'll be fun watching in September!

Firstly dunno anything about VMC but KnC's not using easic, secondly hashfast is claiming to use 28nm in their product.

[Xian01]

I will be really surprised if KNC keeps their timeline.
They are the next BFL. You heard it here first. 
If it makes you feel any better, Avalon is the first new BFL anyways (delays, customer service, etc.).

 I genuinely hope you are wrong about KNC entering the upper echelons of Bitcoin infamy as BFL, and to a lesser degree Avalon, but my gut is telling me you are right.

 I have a tremendous respect for the Swedes. I work with a bunch of them and they are incredibly intelligent and hard working folk, but I've got a real bad feeling, mostly due to the 28nm factor.

 I honestly think we're still at least a year away from that. Maybe as soon as 6 months.

 </0.02 BTC>

[YipYip]

It's kind of funny hearing everyone talk about ORSoC like they're some kind of master chip designing company...  They're listed on LinkedIn as having between 11 and 50 employees.  Butterfly Labs, comparably, has about 40 employees.

Finally a source of reason removing the emotion of it all

What are the facts...hmmm.... Thank you LTC for keeping me warm at night and my ASIC nightmares away

[YipYip]

Did u see the picture of KNC smiling with Josh @ the NY conference in the other thread

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262134.msg2845693#msg2845693


There is some real bad ju ju coming out of that picture...lolz... ;( ...lolz