Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today!

[erk]

Unlike some other ASIC vendors, BFL products are priced in $US not BTC, how you come up with those $US is up to you.

You're far far away from truth.

1. BFL products are priced both in USD and BTC. You can see the proof on the commercial invoice BFL issues to their customers. The official document for every purchase is the INVOICE:



2. How I "come up with those $US" is exactly NOT my choice but BFL's choice, because customer acts entirely upon BFL instructions how much bitcoins to what bitcoin address they have to pay!

If you choose to use Bitpay instead of Paypal because you want to convert some BTC to $US to pay for the item, then what happens to the BTC after Bitpay receives them is no longer your concern.

1. If I choose to use PayPal I have to be PayPal customer! Customers paying in BTC don't choose to use BitPay. BFL made this choice. BFL customers are not BitPay customers for they don't sign any contract with BitPay to be their customers. BFL signed such a contract with BitPay to be their customer.
2. You are correct that once BTC are on BFL's bitcoin account with BitPay customers don't have any control over them. Reason for this is that transactional currency is BTC not USD. As we all know refund is nothing else but a reversal of a transaction. This is why BTC refund must be in BTC not in USD.
3. Bitcoin refunds are treated by BFL as if customers didn't purchase ASIC but USD. This is a blatant violation of all forex regulations. Neither BFL nor BitPay have been licensed to make currency conversion for BFL customers. They are not regulated as exchanges.

The BTC price is generated as a spot price by Bitpay not BFL, as the bitpay.com URL at the top of the page would obvioulsy tell you if you hadn't deliberately left it out of the picture. I have a Bitpay merchant account, I know how it works.

If you don't have a PayPal account then bad luck, they are the two options on the checkout. To pay any other way you would have to contact BFL and arrange it, eg they accept bank transfer.

Once again as the purchase price is in $US your point about forex is not valid.

I don't own any $US, it's not my local currency, for me to pay BFL I would have to convert to $US generally using PayPal, and if I wanted a refund I would expect to have to convert back from $US to my local currency myself,  regardless of what happened to the exchange rate in the meantime. If my local currency was BTC I would expect the conversion to use the spot exchange rate, not some past exchange rate.

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[becoin]

I understand if you didn't have time to talk to your lawyer yet

I understood that BFL lawyer is too busy talking with other customer lawyers. We must be very careful to not allow BFL file for bankruptcy before we get what we can get.

[greyhawk]

I understand if you didn't have time to talk to your lawyer yet

I understood that BFL lawyer is too busy talking with other customer lawyers. We must be very careful to not allow BFL file for bankruptcy before we get what we can get.

In that case you should be quick, because from what I'm hearing things are gonna heat up "real soon now" (non-BFL time).

[Red_Wolf_2]

That said, I also understand the real world, and how business works. [...] Truth is, when you deal with it day in, day out, it starts to take its toll on you. You become jaded, short tempered and often quite nasty when pushed even a little bit. I've been lucky to almost never have had to deal with people who take the insults beyond a professional level apart from one fat unhappy girl who decided to say how hopeless I was to a colleague while I was working on her machine, right next to her. I ended up reminding her I was right next to her, and my body language got the hint across the rest of the way. Had she persisted, I would have said "Fix it yourself", then gone and reported her to my manager.

You understand how business works, and you think it's ok for a business to extort apologies from customers?  The business you'd like to run would be one in which all customers pampered your little butt, eh?  If folks don't pamper your soft little butt, you'd start abusing customers because you can't handle it?  You have no clue how business works.  You're a low-level tech who should be fired from your job.

Yeah, I do understand how business works. No sane business would put up with the crap spewed forth on here. They would cancel your order, and not offer the chance to apologise. I wouldn't bother abusing customers personally, its counterproductive for the most part, and any customer that would willingly engage in such conduct as to push me or any reps of mine to that point would not be customers I would want to keep.
As for your personal attack, seriously, thats just pathetic. After the points I made previously, you just come out and tell me I'm a low level tech who should be fired from my job? For one thing, you don't know what I do for work, and for another, you don't judge how well I do my work. For the record, I am very good at what I do :-)

[becoin]

I have a Bitpay merchant account, I know how it works.

I have too. This is why I'm surprised to read that you don't undestand what is the difference between paying by bitcoins and paying by PayPal/credit card.

I don't own any $US, it's not my local currency, for me to pay BFL I would have to convert to $US generally using PayPal, and if I wanted a refund I would expect to have to convert back from $US to my local currency regardless of what happened to the exchange rate in the meantime. If my local currency was BTC I would expect the conversion to use the spot exchange rate, not some past exchange rate.

Didn't I already mentioned 2 times that to pay using PayPal you have to be PayPal customer? This is not the case with BitPay, because BFL customers are not BitPay customers!

If I pay USD priced product via a credit card run in GBP my bank is doing the currency conversion for me and sending USD to the merchant. My bank has a contract signed with me and is licensed to do such currency conversions. The transactional currency is USD and merchant never has control on my GBP. They don't even see how much GBP I have paid. Respectively the invoice is issued in USD. If there is a refund request USD are converted in GBP AGAIN by MY BANK because this is my bank I have authorized to do so! How can BFL claim they refund USD if they don't even know what is the USD bank account of their customer?

[erk]

Yeah, I do understand how business works. No sane business would put up with the crap spewed forth on here. They would cancel your order, and not offer the chance to apologise. I wouldn't bother abusing customers personally, its counterproductive for the most part, and any customer that would willingly engage in such conduct as to push me or any reps of mine to that point would not be customers I would want to keep.
As for your personal attack, seriously, thats just pathetic. After the points I made previously, you just come out and tell me I'm a low level tech who should be fired from my job? For one thing, you don't know what I do for work, and for another, you don't judge how well I do my work. For the record, I am very good at what I do :-)

My ignore list here has about 80 names on it since April, that's more than the sum total of ignore lists on every other forum I am currently on, or have ever been a member of, that should tell you about the kind of people that post here. Pretty much all on my list are trying to smear someone, which would receive warnings and bans on other forums, even on the BTC-e troll box! The problem seems endemic.

[greyhawk]

As for your personal attack, seriously, thats just pathetic. After the points I made previously, you just come out and tell me I'm a low level tech who should be fired from my job? For one thing, you don't know what I do for work, and for another, you don't judge how well I do my work. For the record, I am very good at what I do :-)

Says here: IT Support October 2011 – January 2013

Looks like a low level tech to me.  

[Flashman]

Knowing from my own experience how some mods ferociously defend BFL crooks on these forums it won't surprise me at all!

I've been posting days but lurking months, what I've seen is mods defending sanity, civil discourse, common sense and reason against the zombie hordes of the batshit insane.

Not surprising really though that baseless accusations are made about the motives of those who moderate baseless accusations.

Anyway, pursuing a course of libeling the forum and mods, let me know how that pans out for you.... oh that's right you won't be able to from a banned account.

[becoin]

My ignore list here has about 80 names on it since April, that's more than the sum total of ignore lists on every other forum I am currently on, or have ever been a member of, that should tell you about the kind of people that post here.

Yeah, and my ignore counter has 41 counts. That should tell you how many BFL sock puppets we have on these forums!

[Red_Wolf_2]

As for your personal attack, seriously, thats just pathetic. After the points I made previously, you just come out and tell me I'm a low level tech who should be fired from my job? For one thing, you don't know what I do for work, and for another, you don't judge how well I do my work. For the record, I am very good at what I do :-)


Cleaned as agreed...

[greyhawk]

As for your personal attack, seriously, thats just pathetic. After the points I made previously, you just come out and tell me I'm a low level tech who should be fired from my job? For one thing, you don't know what I do for work, and for another, you don't judge how well I do my work. For the record, I am very good at what I do :-)

Says here: IT Support October 2011 – January 2013

Looks like a low level tech to me.  

Ahh, so we've gone to stalking me have we? Yeah, thats me. Truth is the job market sucks around here. IBM has made a whole bunch of people redundant, the banks have done the same. I now have competition with people with 20+ years experience. In any case, that is only a fraction of what I do and have done, I tailor that to suit the roles available.
Now, why exactly are you looking me up? What do you hope to achieve? Going to try and insult my personal life too? I'm guessing you're now going for facebook stalking too? You might even find pictures of me somewhere if you're lucky.

Nah, I just like shitting on people's parades. It's what I do.

[Red_Wolf_2]

As for your personal attack, seriously, thats just pathetic. After the points I made previously, you just come out and tell me I'm a low level tech who should be fired from my job? For one thing, you don't know what I do for work, and for another, you don't judge how well I do my work. For the record, I am very good at what I do :-)

Cleaned...

[greyhawk]

Oh boy, I hope they send me a nice dhall. Have not had a good one since the only good Indian here closed.

[Malawi]

That said, I also understand the real world, and how business works. Deadlines are not always met. Estimates can be over optimistic. Customers can get upset, money can be lost.

The money is not lost, it is in BFL's hands. After a reasonable amount of time, failure to deliver becomes breach of contract.
Caveat emptor is not a defense when you break a contract to deliver product after the customer has paid in full.

The question boils down to: would a judge feel that it is reasonable for someone to wait 7 months to deliver a product that has been paid for.

No, the question would rather boil down to: Would a judge find it reasonable that the development and shipping of a product clearly stated to be in development took more than double the time as stipulated. (AFAIK the original stipulation was 4 months.)

Does this mean that it's not possible to offer a product for sale while it's still in development?

I am a latecomer to BTC, but to me the whole BFL thing is a crowdfunding project that went sour because of many very impatient buyers.

[erk]

No, the question would rather boil down to: Would a judge find it reasonable that the development and shipping of a product clearly stated to be in development took more than double the time as stipulated. (AFAIK the original stipulation was 4 months.)

Does this mean that it's not possible to offer a product for sale while it's still in development?

I am a latecomer to BTC, but to me the whole BFL thing is a crowdfunding project that went sour because of many very impatient buyers.

You can always offer a product for sale when it's still in development. The building industry does it every day, selling off the plans.

If something takes 2-3 times as long to produce as originally stipulated, then you would want to have a contract in place with performance clauses, which I doubt anyone bothered to in the BFL case. Most people buying mining gear are not that bright, or they don't care.

[becoin]

No, the question would rather boil down to: Would a judge find it reasonable that the development and shipping of a product clearly stated to be in development took more than double the time as stipulated. (AFAIK the original stipulation was 4 months.)

Translated... The question would rather boil down to: Would a judge find it reasonable that BFL customers are actually investors without having the rights of investors!

[Korbman]

You're far far away from truth.

1. BFL products are priced both in USD and BTC. You can see the proof on the commercial invoice BFL issues to their customers. The official document for every purchase is the INVOICE:

2. How I "come up with those $US" is exactly NOT my choice but BFL's choice, because customer acts entirely upon BFL instructions how much bitcoins to what bitcoin address they have to pay!

If you choose to use Bitpay instead of Paypal because you want to convert some BTC to $US to pay for the item, then what happens to the BTC after Bitpay receives them is no longer your concern.

1. If I choose to use PayPal I have to be PayPal customer! Customers paying in BTC don't choose to use BitPay. BFL made this choice. BFL customers are not BitPay customers for they don't sign any contract with BitPay to be their customers. BFL signed such a contract with BitPay to be their customer.
2. You are correct that once BTC are on BFL's bitcoin account with BitPay customers don't have any control over them. Reason for this is that transactional currency is BTC not USD. As we all know refund is nothing else but a reversal of a transaction. This is why BTC refund must be in BTC not in USD.

Good god man, you're still going on about BitPay? I think the last conversation we had about this was months ago...is this the only thing you've been posting?

3. Bitcoin refunds are treated by BFL as if customers didn't purchase ASIC but USD. This is a blatant violation of all forex regulations. Neither BFL nor BitPay have been licensed to make currency conversion for BFL customers. They are not regulated as exchanges.

I'm sorry, what?

Here's a quick little step-by-step on how payments for products (in this case, products from Butterfly Labs) works:

1. Customer [with Bitcoins] is on the website.
2. They select a BFL product they'd like to purchase, choosing payment in Bitcoins.
3, Invoice is generated and a third party payment processor (BitPay) takes over at checkout.
4. Bitcoins are sent to the BitPay address as listed on the invoice.
5. BitPay recognizes the payment and converts all of those coins to a fiat (in this case, USD) at whatever the current market rate is.
6. BitPay shows that you've paid your invoice and redirects you back to the previous website.
7. BitPay sends the payment (in fiat) to Butterfly Labs (and takes their cut).
8. BFL shows you've paid and are processing your order.

So, explain to me again why BFL should pay out Bitcoins during a refund?

[becoin]

Good god man, you're still going on about BitPay?

Not me man, it is BFL trying to pass their troubles to BitPay!

Here's a quick little step-by-step on how payments for products (in this case, products from Butterfly Labs) works:

1. Customer [with Bitcoins] is on the website.
2. They select a BFL product they'd like to purchase, choosing payment in Bitcoins.
3, Invoice is generated and a third party payment processor (BitPay) takes over at checkout.
4. Bitcoins are sent to the BitPay address as listed on the invoice.
5. BitPay recognizes the payment and converts all of those coins to a fiat (in this case, USD) at whatever the current market rate is.
6. BitPay shows that you've paid your invoice and redirects you back to the previous website.
7. BitPay sends the payment (in fiat) to Butterfly Labs (and takes their cut).
8. BFL shows you've paid and are processing your order.

So, explain to me again why BFL should pay out Bitcoins during a refund?

Here's a quick little one-step answer:

1. BFL instruct customer to pay in bitcoin, they get bitcoin, and issue commercial invoice priced in bitcoin.

[Nemesis]

Why the fck you guys even feed this pathetic troll? Put him on ignore and dont give a fck of what he said.

Quoting him ruined it for everyone.

[SLok]

I am laughing hysterically... This obscene adult is being shown up by a seventeen year old who runs his business flawlessly!!!

Was jetzt Werner, du bist so still, schön ein Wiedergutmachungsschnitzel für 2 bestellt?