Experimenting with Jalapeno firmware...

[LordTheron]

Hi Guys,

I have flashed 1.2.5 firmware to 2 of my Jalapeno but im not getting even 7gh/s. Max I get is about 6.7gh/s at 37C on both units and hardware errors at 0.17%. Is there anyway to get it up to 8GHs? 

Many thanks,

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[cp1]

Run getinfo in cgminer and look at how many engines your chips have.

[jonesgear]

Just bought the firmware debugger, this thread is outstanding, thank you.

[LordTheron]

Run getinfo in cgminer and look at how many engines your chips have.

Sorry to ask silly question, how do I getinfo in cgminer?

[cp1]

I've never done it, but it looks like you can do something like:
java API stats | grep GetInfo

[tom99]

Run getinfo in cgminer and look at how many engines your chips have.

Sorry to ask silly question, how do I getinfo in cgminer?

   read api.readme

[kano]

I've never done it, but it looks like you can do something like:
java API stats | grep GetInfo

Yep and also make sure cgminer was started with --api-listen or
"api-listen" : true, in the conf file
If you are on Windows then you'd just need to use java API stats and look through the output for [GetInfo]
... and just in case you are on linux and have more than one SC ...
java API stats | grep -v POOL | egrep "\[ID\].*BA|GetInfo"

[LordTheron]

I've never done it, but it looks like you can do something like:
java API stats | grep GetInfo

Yep and also make sure cgminer was started with --api-listen or
"api-listen" : true, in the conf file
If you are on Windows then you'd just need to use java API stats and look through the output for [GetInfo]
... and just in case you are on linux and have more than one SC ...
java API stats | grep -v POOL | egrep "\[ID\].*BA|GetInfo"

Thanks for that. Im running "api-listen" : true in the conf file but where do I use java API stats? Im on windows and just started using cgminer so all is new to me.

Kano I have a question for you. When you upgraded firmware on your Jalapeno did your hash rate go up to 8ghs and stay at that rate? both of my upgraded units seems to be going up to 6.7ghs, stay there and from time to time they would hit 8.4ghs for few sec. Does that mean my hardware is not capable to go to 8ghs?

[kano]

I've never done it, but it looks like you can do something like:
java API stats | grep GetInfo

Yep and also make sure cgminer was started with --api-listen or
"api-listen" : true, in the conf file
If you are on Windows then you'd just need to use java API stats and look through the output for [GetInfo]
... and just in case you are on linux and have more than one SC ...
java API stats | grep -v POOL | egrep "\[ID\].*BA|GetInfo"

Thanks for that. Im running "api-listen" : true in the conf file but where do I use java API stats? Im on windows and just started using cgminer so all is new to me.

Kano I have a question for you. When you upgraded firmware on your Jalapeno did your hash rate go up to 8ghs and stay at that rate? both of my upgraded units seems to be going up to 6.7ghs, stay there and from time to time they would hit 8.4ghs for few sec. Does that mean my hardware is not capable to go to 8ghs?

On windows you need java installed then when you are in the cgminer directory type
java API stats

The 'avg' hash rate shown by cgminer changes around a lot at the start - you need to give it at least 10 minutes to get an idea of where it is at.
An hour is pretty certain of what it is.

[LordTheron]

Many thanks for your reply. I will install java and try that.

My hash rate after 11hrs is 6593.19MH/s at 41c, 0.76% Reject and 0.19% HW errors. diff is set to 8. It seems to be a bit low as I was expecting to hit 7+.
 

[kano]

Many thanks for your reply. I will install java and try that.

My hash rate after 11hrs is 6593.19MH/s at 41c, 0.76% Reject and 0.19% HW errors. diff is set to 8. It seems to be a bit low as I was expecting to hit 7+.
 

If it is a newer Jalapeno, then don't expect it to go as high.
The newer ones use different class chips and thus a standard Jalapeno will be less likely to clock up as high.

[goxed]

Many thanks for your reply. I will install java and try that.

My hash rate after 11hrs is 6593.19MH/s at 41c, 0.76% Reject and 0.19% HW errors. diff is set to 8. It seems to be a bit low as I was expecting to hit 7+.
 

If it is a newer Jalapeno, then don't expect it to go as high.
The newer ones use different class chips and thus a standard Jalapeno will be less likely to clock up as high.

Ahaa, thanks for the heads up.

[LordTheron]

Many thanks for your reply. I will install java and try that.

My hash rate after 11hrs is 6593.19MH/s at 41c, 0.76% Reject and 0.19% HW errors. diff is set to 8. It seems to be a bit low as I was expecting to hit 7+.
 

If it is a newer Jalapeno, then don't expect it to go as high.
The newer ones use different class chips and thus a standard Jalapeno will be less likely to clock up as high.

Thats what I thought. Still not bad, almost 2ghs extra

I was wondering if it will be possible to add more chips to the board. There are only 2 chips and 6 free spaces.

[tom99]

Many thanks for your reply. I will install java and try that.

My hash rate after 11hrs is 6593.19MH/s at 41c, 0.76% Reject and 0.19% HW errors. diff is set to 8. It seems to be a bit low as I was expecting to hit 7+.
 

If it is a newer Jalapeno, then don't expect it to go as high.
The newer ones use different class chips and thus a standard Jalapeno will be less likely to clock up as high.

Thats what I thought. Still not bad, almost 2ghs extra

I was wondering if it will be possible to add more chips to the board. There are only 2 chips and 6 free spaces.

 

  yes, you can add more but not too much  and not easy job to put BGA chip on board.

[Kuusou]

Damn, I wish there was some sort of "one-click." method for this that went through the USB. I swear every single time I try to do something like this I end up failing miserably. I always have horrible luck, especially when there are guides and everyone else seems to have no issue.

My Jalapeno is running at 5650 MH/s and although that's fairly awesome seeing as I though I was getting 4500, I still would love to have 7000 - 9000. I doubt I will be doing it though, maybe after I make ROI or if/when the difficulty is high enough that I don't feel bad having my miner not running (I know someone in here said 0.12 BTC was nothing, but I'm running at 0.09 per day, and at 9+ dollars a day that's quite a bit, haha.)

Isn't it an awful feeling to feel as though no matter what you do, you risk a tonne of money and time? lol.

I'm definitely saving this thread, it was awesome to read though.

[LordTheron]

Many thanks for your reply. I will install java and try that.

My hash rate after 11hrs is 6593.19MH/s at 41c, 0.76% Reject and 0.19% HW errors. diff is set to 8. It seems to be a bit low as I was expecting to hit 7+.
 

If it is a newer Jalapeno, then don't expect it to go as high.
The newer ones use different class chips and thus a standard Jalapeno will be less likely to clock up as high.

Thats what I thought. Still not bad, almost 2ghs extra

I was wondering if it will be possible to add more chips to the board. There are only 2 chips and 6 free spaces.

 

  yes, you can add more but not too much  and not easy job to put BGA chip on board.

That's great.Ive done a lot of BGA rework so this chip looks  easy compared to ps3 gpu. Was there any reason way BFL didn't populate the rest chips? Could you tell me what else need to be done to get additional chips going? Will the firmware recognize the chips automatically? Also any idea on any blf chips being delivered to customers?

[Flashman]

Was there any reason way BFL didn't populate the rest chips? Could you tell me what else need to be done to get additional chips going? Will the firmware recognize the chips automatically?

I believe the thermals weren't looking so great cased up, and the power circuitry was a little strained to offer a little single product on that board. In a brief chat session with Josh, he seemed to indicate that it was a near thing that they didn't do the little single on that, and he thought it was capable of running 8 chips, and I guess with re-doing things for the big single and not being able to use the original jally board, it made more sense to up the jallies to those boards and do a one board solution for the others. There only seems to be a small fraction of little single orders compared to bigs and jallies.

Anyway, this is what Luke-Jr was originally running, the infamous "April 1st delivery" an 8 chip little single on that board.

Indications are that if it runs that single firmware, it will recognise more chips.

There was also an early running change from "hot mosfets" to a part with either a better spec, or that actually met the spec, so 2nd week onward jallies might be more capable of running 8 chips long term than the earlier ones. (That's a spitball of where the change was, might have been a tad earlier, but that's delivered in 2nd week, with 1/3 shipping plan some 3rd or 4th week orders might have got early production) However, we are not quite sure if anything else other than the ASICs are missing off the jally boards, like maybe some resistor packs or surface mount caps, if Luke-Jr is in possession of that original little he might be able to compare with a jally, but not sure if he is. Also not sure how much things are changing as production continued, if they had a stack of populated 8 chip boards they are using those first, but if it comes to using unpopulated boards, or re-ordering they might have more stuff left off.

So, actually several ways to go...

If you've got many jallies and are okay with straining the original PSUs, you might add just 2 chips and get somewhere between 12 and 16GH on them, this probably allows reuse of heatsinks also. May be capable of running cased with minor mods.

If you've got a medium number of jallies and can furnish 100W of PSU (Actually many older ATXes and AT PSUs will give you 10A on 12V so you should be able to find 100W for free practically) stick 4 more chips on for 6 total... Now, if you've got grade A chips on there, you might be able to run uncased on original heatsink with upgraded fan, if on the aluminum sink, but the copper/heatpipe sinks that were "used up" early on may do better. You should see over 20GH on these, if you have a good sink and PSU you may be able to push them to 30GH BUT if trying to get them high clocked use a IR thermometer on those mosfets and make sure they don't get too hot.

If you've got a handful and get a lot of chips, you could go for broke and fill all 8 pads, you would need an excellent heatsink, probably a minimum 150W PSU, maybe more depending on how inefficient the mosfets are getting by this time. Try to be gentle first power up flash it to low speed (Best done in advance). Here's where I think YMMV greatly because I think they blew a lot of boards in the lab before they got a handle on what was happening. Stick a killawatt on it or an amp clamp on the DC and kick it up one speed level, and see how much the watts/amps jump, if they jump 50W at that point, I think you're gonna have to stop there and be happy with what you get which might at that point be on the low side of 30GH. Also check temperature of mosfets... if you get lucky with your chips, you might get to kick it up one speed step at a time until it's mid 30s. If you get really lucky and you like living dangerously, you might get 40GH out of it. With 8 chips I think you're going to have to hand tune every one, keep a close eye on cooling, upgrade it as much as possible and generally "baby" it somewhat. Large scale miners might not want to bother with 8 chips. In my estimation the power usage per speed level is gonna be somewhat exponential, my best guess is that you want to stop at 200W and expect double the last increase... meaning if the last bump was 30W and took you to 190, then the next might be more like 60 and take you to 250W, which could be magic smoke liberation time.


This is all best guess based on following development closely and needs to be proved or amended by experiment.

EDIT: Oh another point to note, keep an eye on that barrel connector at power levels over 100W make sure you use a barrel connector that fits perfect, since there might be several that are "close" otherwise it's going to spark/melt or weld itself together. You may want to add additional or upgraded power connectors. A possible deal for Canadians, these http://www.sunforceproducts.com/product_details.php?PRODUCT_ID=148 have been on clearance at local Canadian tires here, something like $1.99 a set, the polarised 12V connector there, 3rd from left on pic, is actually on the end of all 7 of those leads, so you get 8 of them in there. Known as an "SAE connector". Not quite sure what max is on that, but I'd stick 2 on an 8 chip just to be sure.

[LordTheron]

Was there any reason way BFL didn't populate the rest chips? Could you tell me what else need to be done to get additional chips going? Will the firmware recognize the chips automatically?

I believe the thermals weren't looking so great cased up, and the power circuitry was a little strained to offer a little single product on that board. In a brief chat session with Josh, he seemed to indicate that it was a near thing that they didn't do the little single on that, and he thought it was capable of running 8 chips, and I guess with re-doing things for the big single and not being able to use the original jally board, it made more sense to up the jallies to those boards and do a one board solution for the others. There only seems to be a small fraction of little single orders compared to bigs and jallies.

Anyway, this is what Luke-Jr was originally running, the infamous "April 1st delivery" an 8 chip little single on that board.

Indications are that if it runs that single firmware, it will recognise more chips.

There was also an early running change from "hot mosfets" to a part with either a better spec, or that actually met the spec, so 2nd week onward jallies might be more capable of running 8 chips long term than the earlier ones. (That's a spitball of where the change was, might have been a tad earlier, but that's delivered in 2nd week, with 1/3 shipping plan some 3rd or 4th week orders might have got early production) However, we are not quite sure if anything else other than the ASICs are missing off the jally boards, like maybe some resistor packs or surface mount caps, if Luke-Jr is in possession of that original little he might be able to compare with a jally, but not sure if he is. Also not sure how much things are changing as production continued, if they had a stack of populated 8 chip boards they are using those first, but if it comes to using unpopulated boards, or re-ordering they might have more stuff left off.

So, actually several ways to go...

If you've got many jallies and are okay with straining the original PSUs, you might add just 2 chips and get somewhere between 12 and 16GH on them, this probably allows reuse of heatsinks also. May be capable of running cased with minor mods.

If you've got a medium number of jallies and can furnish 100W of PSU (Actually many older ATXes and AT PSUs will give you 10A on 12V so you should be able to find 100W for free practically) stick 4 more chips on for 6 total... Now, if you've got grade A chips on there, you might be able to run uncased on original heatsink with upgraded fan, if on the aluminum sink, but the copper/heatpipe sinks that were "used up" early on may do better. You should see over 20GH on these, if you have a good sink and PSU you may be able to push them to 30GH BUT if trying to get them high clocked use a IR thermometer on those mosfets and make sure they don't get too hot.

If you've got a handful and get a lot of chips, you could go for broke and fill all 8 pads, you would need an excellent heatsink, probably a minimum 150W PSU, maybe more depending on how inefficient the mosfets are getting by this time. Try to be gentle first power up flash it to low speed (Best done in advance). Here's where I think YMMV greatly because I think they blew a lot of boards in the lab before they got a handle on what was happening. Stick a killawatt on it or an amp clamp on the DC and kick it up one speed level, and see how much the watts/amps jump, if they jump 50W at that point, I think you're gonna have to stop there and be happy with what you get which might at that point be on the low side of 30GH. Also check temperature of mosfets... if you get lucky with your chips, you might get to kick it up one speed step at a time until it's mid 30s. If you get really lucky and you like living dangerously, you might get 40GH out of it. With 8 chips I think you're going to have to hand tune every one, keep a close eye on cooling, upgrade it as much as possible and generally "baby" it somewhat. Large scale miners might not want to bother with 8 chips. In my estimation the power usage per speed level is gonna be somewhat exponential, my best guess is that you want to stop at 200W and expect double the last increase... meaning if the last bump was 30W and took you to 190, then the next might be more like 60 and take you to 250W, which could be magic smoke liberation time.


This is all best guess based on following development closely and needs to be proved or amended by experiment.

EDIT: Oh another point to note, keep an eye on that barrel connector at power levels over 100W make sure you use a barrel connector that fits perfect, since there might be several that are "close" otherwise it's going to spark/melt or weld itself together. You may want to add additional or upgraded power connectors. A possible deal for Canadians, these http://www.sunforceproducts.com/product_details.php?PRODUCT_ID=148 have been on clearance at local Canadian tires here, something like $1.99 a set, the polarised 12V connector there, 3rd from left on pic, is actually on the end of all 7 of those leads, so you get 8 of them in there. Known as an "SAE connector". Not quite sure what max is on that, but I'd stick 2 on an 8 chip just to be sure.

This is fantastic explanation mate!!! Many thanks for that, much appreciated. One more question, do I need to add chips in pairs or single chip will work? Being able to add single chip and run tests would be good for experimenting and finding the right balance between speed and temp. It may not go up to 30GH but if i could double up the speed without abusing other components, then its worth to give it a go.

Now how do I get my hands on couple of  chips to run the experiment? Anyone got any chips for testing I could buy?

 

[Flashman]

Odd numbers of chips do apparently work, the major objection to doing that is mechanical, it's hard to get even heatsink mounting pressure on odd number of chips. Back in the day when overclockers were pulling the heatspreaders off K6-2/K6-3 chips to get the last 50-100Mhz out of them, the solution to stabilise the sink and keep from crushing the core was either to cut a shim from plastic or to use high density foam "stick on feet" or similar on the corners to prevent wobble. Methods similar to that may work, but even so be careful mounting the sink.

Another point there, is that additional ASICs might not sit as conformally in the same plane as they would have done if installed at the factory, due to variation in mounting process, slight amount more solder etc. Even BFL is expecting some variation and is using the thermal pads to combat minor variance. This could be greater with chips you mount yourself or get a "reflow" tech to do for you. So inspecting fit very carefully before initial power up would be recommended.

[yonvanom]

I have an order for two jallies (5GH/s) and was planning on flashing them, do you guys think upgrading to 7GH/s to get better chips would be worth it?