✨✨✨ The Reason We Use Money ✨✨✨

[ShortCoins]

The reason we need money is to have a medium to exchange goods and services for each other. Money is the way we divide the world's resources.

What is money?
Money is a FUTURE claim on services or goods. It represents an amount of goods one is entitled to collect on


Now lets think about how this differs from crypto currency

The reason we need crypto is to exchange goods and services for each other using a digital medium and to provide it in a decentralized but secure way.


What is crypto?
Crytpo is a PAST claim on services or goods. It represents an amount of goods or services that one has already used



Here is what I mean by the difference between a future and a past claim on goods or services. Money is a future claim on the world's resources (including labor and services). You can use that money at a future point to collect in on what you are 'owed'. This differs dramatically from crypto. Crypto is actually a past claim on services or goods, because it cannot be earned without destroying resources. The value of crypto comes from the fact that electricity, man hours, and hardware are destroyed in order to create. We are essentially destroying resources in order to make a medium that will allow us to divide the rest of the resources up. Instead we should be earning currency based on the good things we do and the resources we protect. We should be incentivized to save the world, not destroy it.

I think the process of adopting crypto is too much of a sacrifice when it comes to resources. The very things we are trying to divide up we are destroying. We arguably need money to divide the resources, but we don't need to destroy resources just to make the money

[nullius]

Folks, please read this before you buy into this junk, or even bother arguing about it.  ShortCoins is a spammer on a prolific FUD binge.

ShortCoins didn’t even bother to respond when I replied to the exact same text he posted on another thread:

What is money?
Money is a FUTURE claim on services or goods. It represents an amount of goods one is entitled to collect on

[...]

What is crypto?
Crytpo is a PAST claim on services or goods. It represents an amount of goods or services that one has already used



Here is what I mean by the difference between a future and a past claim on goods or services. Money is a future claim on the world's resources (including labor and services). You can use that money at a future point to collect in on what you are 'owed'. This differs dramatically from crypto. Crypto is actually a past claim on services or goods, because it cannot be earned without destroying resources. The value of crypto comes from the fact that electricity, man hours, and hardware are destroyed in order to create.

Say what?  I quoted enough to provide sufficient context; but what I am really interested in is this:  “Money is a future claim on the world’s resources (including labor and services). You can use that money at a future point to collect in on what you are ‘owed’.”

From where do you believe “money” derives that claim?  In itself, and/or in contradistinction to “crypto”.

(I leave aside for now the nasty myth that “crypto” derives its value from “electricity, man hours, and hardware are destroyed in order to create.”  That’s patently untrue; but to understand why, first you must have a clear definition of “money”.)

[ShortCoins]

Ah. I didn't mean to put it as a reply, I meant to make a new thread.

That's why I didn't see your response. Although I wouldn't respond anyhow as I feel you are just being a cyber bully at this point. I have seen you attack person after person on the boards for seemingly no reason. I have no idea what your intentions are. I'm sorry you don't like me.

However, I am not spamming at all and have been enjoying making friends and discussing bitcoin topics

You should live and let live. Because I don't wish to argue or fight with you.

[nullius]

Ah. I didn't mean to put it as a reply, I meant to make a new thread.

Well, I can see how you made such a misdirected post with so many threads to keep track of.

That's why I didn't see your response. Although I wouldn't respond anyhow as I feel you are just being a cyber bully at this point. I have seen you attack person after person on the boards for seemingly no reason. I have no idea what your intentions are. I'm sorry you don't like me.

However, I am not spamming at all and have been enjoying making friends and discussing bitcoin topics

You should live and let live. Because I don't wish to argue or fight with you.

You say you want reasonable discussion.  I asked you a reasonable question.  Contra what you insinuate, I’m proud that my post history clearly demostrates my own desire for reasonable discussion with intelligent people.  (It also evidences my total intolerance of Bcash shills and abject idiots; and I am proud of that, too.)

So, I am wondering:  How do you define “money”?  Where do you suggest it obtains its “future value”?  I think the crux of the issue is:  Do you posit that “money” is backed by something tangible, or a promise of something tangible which can be redeemed?  That seems to be hinted, but your position is unclear.

[Iranus]

The value of crypto comes from the fact that electricity, man hours, and hardware are destroyed in order to create.

This is a hideous way of describing the value of Bitcoin.

The cost of mining rises and falls because of the change in Bitcoin's value, not the other way around.  The fact that electricity was used in order to create Bitcoin has no effect on Bitcoin's value, apart from the sunk cost fallacy that may be exerted by miners (as well as speculators).

Also, the block reward is not a permanent feature.  In about 123 years, it will no longer exist.

[Sundark]

Personally I hate money cuz it causes a lot of problems. I wish it was like hundreds years ago when people just exchanged things that they needed. It was called barter. it can eliminate the financial stratification between people. It could be the victory over poverty.

[ShortCoins]

Nah I don't think fiat money is backed by much of anything. When I say money represents a "future claim" on goods and services I mean the literal definition of a claim: a demand or request for something considered one's due. Which is exactly what it is.

So instead of exchanging product A for service B we exchange product A for money and then buy service B

This allows us to transfer assets without a direct trade through the use of a medium (money)

The cost of mining rises and falls because of the change in Bitcoin's value, not the other way around.

Wrong. Each BTC that is mined increases the difficulty of the next computation. In order to solve a more difficult equation, more electricity is required. Therefore, Bitcoin increases in value when mining costs rise. The price needs to rise in order to cover the losses of the miners (which they receive in direct payment of BTC).

Real Life Example: If cost of goods sold go up, so should your sale price

[nullius]

Nah I don't think fiat money is backed by much of anything. When I say money represents a "future claim" on goods and services I mean the literal definition of a claim: a demand or request for something considered one's due. Which is exactly what it is.

So instead of exchanging product A for service B we exchange product A for money and then buy service B

This allows us to transfer assets without a direct trade through the use of a medium (money)

You seem to be suggesting that “money” be a credit system in favor of the holder of money, which can be used as a “demand or request” against arbitrary persons “for something considered one’s due.”  Is that an accurate characterization of what you mean?

The cost of mining rises and falls because of the change in Bitcoin's value, not the other way around.

Wrong. Each BTC that is mined increases the difficulty of the next computation. In order to solve a more difficult equation, more electricity is required. Therefore, Bitcoin increases in value when mining costs rise. The price needs to rise in order to cover the losses of the miners (which they receive in direct payment of BTC).

Real Life Example: If cost of goods sold go up, so should your sale price

No, you are 100% incorrect.  You clearly do not understand how mining works, or what it does.  I just wrote you an explanation of the purpose of mining on one of these other threads you spawned; I suggest you read that first.  Further than that:

Incorrect:  “Each BTC that is mined increases the difficulty of the next computation.”  No.  The difficulty increases based on a calculation of how quickly the network is generating blocks.  There is a 10-minute generation target; every 2016 blocks (intended to be about every two weeks), the difficulty is raised or lowered based exclusively on whether blocks were taking shorter or longer than 10 minutes, on average.  It has absolutely nothing to do with how many BTC are mined.  The number of BTC mined is set by a schedule by block height.  This is basic stuff—you should a beginner-level introduction to how Bitcoin works, so as to avoid such mistakes.

[stompix]

Wrong. Each BTC that is mined increases the difficulty of the next computation. In order to solve a more difficult equation, more electricity is required. Therefore, Bitcoin increases in value when mining costs rise. The price needs to rise in order to cover the losses of the miners (which they receive in direct payment of BTC).

Real Life Example: If cost of goods sold go up, so should your sale price

Wrong.Wrong, a thousand times wrong.

But first, stop creating topics with these titles. Those are annoying as hell and I will start reporting them.
This is not kindergarten where we draw ponies and rockets.

And although @nullius corrected a few there are some he didn't.

Each BTC that is mined has nothing to do with difficulty, future difficulty, or electricity.
The difficulty increases after each set of 2016 blocks if the average time between blocks was below 10 minutes and decreases if the time was longer. Nothing to do with how many BTC are mined as a reward.
Time between blocks determine future difficulty.

Mining and price have nothing to do, again.

Price has gone up by 16x time since January, difficulty has gone up 5 times.

Difficulty has nothing to do with electricity.
Difficulty is related more to hashrate and an increase in hash rate doesn't mean more energy consumption it can mean better miners higher hash/w

Miner loses??? What loses? You know how much you get for a 1500$ S9 by running it one month?

[darkangel11]

The value of crypto comes from the fact that electricity, man hours, and hardware are destroyed in order to create. We are essentially destroying resources in order to make a medium that will allow us to divide the rest of the resources up. Instead we should be earning currency based on the good things we do and the resources we protect. We should be incentivized to save the world, not destroy it.

I think the process of adopting crypto is too much of a sacrifice when it comes to resources.

I guess you haven't heard about POS coins

Wrong.Wrong, a thousand times wrong.

But first, stop creating topics with these titles. Those are annoying as hell and I will start reporting them.

He's doing his best to make the thread visible. People in the services section have been doing it for years. Or he just likes the bling

Folks, please read this before you buy into this junk, or even bother arguing about it.  ShortCoins is a spammer on a prolific FUD binge.

ShortCoins didn’t even bother to respond when I replied to the exact same text he posted on another thread:

Isn't reposting the same stuff in different sections spamming?

P.S. Are you borrowing this from somewhere or making it up yourself because those claims are baseless. Not only this one but the ones in your other threads as well.
like this thing:

90% of all bitcoin owners have less than 0.1 BTC each

How did you come up with that? Did you make the research asking a test group of 1000 bitcoiners about their holdings or did a fairy whisper it to you?

[Beefcake]

All the philosophical stuff is nice to think about, but at the end of the day only one thing really matters.  When I go to exchange my bitcoins for something, be it dollars or something else, what do I get in return?  Right now I get a large pile of cash.  Maybe that will change tomorrow but right now I am happy to say that bitcoin represents a nice storage of wealth in the present time.  What it means for the past or future, I will leave that up to the university types to write papers about.  Let them argue the finer points among themselves and twist up a simple thing with convoluted logic.

[Youghoor]

But you are not even reading what this piece if trash in form of user called "shortcoins" is posting

Why are you posting this? he is not even asking this thing, he is just talking crap about bitcoin and everything about cryptocurrencies.

I understand that you hate money and bla bla bla.

Personally I hate money cuz it causes a lot of problems. I wish it was like hundreds years ago when people just exchanged things that they needed. It was called barter. it can eliminate the financial stratification

and ShortCoins, you should know that no one is going to stop using cryptos because you say that they are wrong.

You should be banned, or tagged, because the only thing that you post in here is crap, and no one pays attention to your posts.

Only the account farmers like the one i quoted are posting here seriously.

[stompix]

Wrong.Wrong, a thousand times wrong.

But first, stop creating topics with these titles. Those are annoying as hell and I will start reporting them.

He's doing his best to make the thread visible. People in the services section have been doing it for years. Or he just likes the bling

And it has worked wonders...
Have you checked the altcoin section now? I can't even read the titles correctly nowadays.
Making the thread visible will just make the others doing the same and in the end we won't be able to distinguish words from rainbow eating bears and dancing unicorns ....
And there will be, trust me

90% of all bitcoin owners have less than 0.1 BTC each

How did you come up with that? Did you make the research asking a test group of 1000 bitcoiners about their holdings or did a fairy whisper it to you?

Actually for the first time he might be close to reality. Of course a twisted reality but still
He probably followed the info on this:
https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html
90% of all addresses have a balance lower than 0.1
Of course addresses/wallets/persons are different things but in the end there could only be at maximum 210 million people holding 0.1
Even if we include satoshi's coins and other that still means 3% of the population.

[ShortCoins]

Can yall stop spamming the boards? Haha

I love how you all come in and repeat the EXACT same thing like it isn't spam. Also there is a rule that all replies must be related to the original title, so how about you all learn to follow the damn rules before pointing fingers at others. If you have an issue use the report button. You don't need to repeat yourselves over and over about how bitcoin bears are awful and should be banned from the forum. Theres bulls and bears in every market. Get over it.

Perhaps I have explained the fees slightly wrong. But every source you read will say that bitcoin mining costs are going up.

So really all your points are moot. I actually didn't see a single piece of evidence that shows bitcoin prices and mining costs aren't correlated. There can be other variables at play and not a 100% correlation. You would actually have to use quantitative modeling to prove it and not just spitting out bullshit.

If you aren't interested in discussing the reason we use money...

Simple SOLUTION! Stop bumping the thread and reading it LOL! That's not block chain science, that's common sense

P.S. Are you borrowing this from somewhere or making it up yourself because those claims are baseless.

Haha I love how you tried to say one of my claims was baseless. And someone on your own FUD team instantly proved you wrong, LOL

[brushtooth]

The reason we need money is to have a medium to exchange goods and services for each other. Money is the way we divide the world's resources.

What is money?
Money is a FUTURE claim on services or goods. It represents an amount of goods one is entitled to collect on


Now lets think about how this differs from crypto currency

The reason we need crypto is to exchange goods and services for each other using a digital medium and to provide it in a decentralized but secure way.


What is crypto?
Crytpo is a PAST claim on services or goods. It represents an amount of goods or services that one has already used



Here is what I mean by the difference between a future and a past claim on goods or services. Money is a future claim on the world's resources (including labor and services). You can use that money at a future point to collect in on what you are 'owed'. This differs dramatically from crypto. Crypto is actually a past claim on services or goods, because it cannot be earned without destroying resources. The value of crypto comes from the fact that electricity, man hours, and hardware are destroyed in order to create. We are essentially destroying resources in order to make a medium that will allow us to divide the rest of the resources up. Instead we should be earning currency based on the good things we do and the resources we protect. We should be incentivized to save the world, not destroy it.

I think the process of adopting crypto is too much of a sacrifice when it comes to resources. The very things we are trying to divide up we are destroying. We arguably need money to divide the resources, but we don't need to destroy resources just to make the money

Not like we cut down millions of trees to make paper money or mine precious ores to make coins? Long term digital currencies will be better for the environment than physical currencies, in time we will have sustainable energy sources and the electricity usage won't matter. As for if any of this makes them a money or not, no it doesn't, I have no idea what point you were trying to make with that.

[adam2018]

The reason we need money is to have a medium to exchange goods and services for each other. Money is the way we divide the world's resources.

What is money?
Money is a FUTURE claim on services or goods. It represents an amount of goods one is entitled to collect on


Now lets think about how this differs from crypto currency

The reason we need crypto is to exchange goods and services for each other using a digital medium and to provide it in a decentralized but secure way.


What is crypto?
Crytpo is a PAST claim on services or goods. It represents an amount of goods or services that one has already used



Here is what I mean by the difference between a future and a past claim on goods or services. Money is a future claim on the world's resources (including labor and services). You can use that money at a future point to collect in on what you are 'owed'. This differs dramatically from crypto. Crypto is actually a past claim on services or goods, because it cannot be earned without destroying resources. The value of crypto comes from the fact that electricity, man hours, and hardware are destroyed in order to create. We are essentially destroying resources in order to make a medium that will allow us to divide the rest of the resources up. Instead we should be earning currency based on the good things we do and the resources we protect. We should be incentivized to save the world, not destroy it.

I think the process of adopting crypto is too much of a sacrifice when it comes to resources. The very things we are trying to divide up we are destroying. We arguably need money to divide the resources, but we don't need to destroy resources just to make the money

This is perhaps more of a philosophical approach, but personally i think Money means different things to different people.

Somebody living in a poor part of the world struggling for basics will probably see Money as nothing more than a means of survival.

For me, its more a store of value, a asset and then a medium of exchange.

What you said about electricity and hardware being used to produce Digital Money like Bitcoin may be true to a extent, but then the same can be said for Paper Money - we as a species probably
destroy millions of acres of trees and forests to produce the paper needed to then produce our valuable paper money. Also we "destroy" or "consume" millions of tons of concrete, wood, metal and other
commodities to produce Wealth in the form of a House - the Houses we build become a asset and a store of value, and we can exchange them for cash/goods/services...coming back to the point that we
consume alot of things to produce a single House but that doesnt mean its not beneficial, it actually has many benefits.

Same thing with digital money. The speed, the transparency, the ease with which we can send/receive digital money makes it more efficient than carrying around stacks of paper money.

I also dont think Bitcoin only represents a past claim on goods/services.... if that was the case i would not be able to buy things with it now.

Even my Car - which cost alot more than a Bitcoin to be produced in electricity, hardware, and man-hours, is not a past source of value, because i can sell it and exchange it for other forms of wealth.

If you argue Digital Money is a depreciating source of wealth like my Car or Laptop - again i would beg to differ because it will continue to have value so long as people give it value - and thats basically what money is.

Also if your main objection to Bitcoin and Digital Money is the cost of production (electricity, hardware) then i think you should look into Alt-coins - some of which are produced/generated in radically different ways that
does not involve 'mining' at all.

[ShortCoins]

Long term digital currencies will be better for the environment than physical currencies, in time we will have sustainable energy sources and the electricity usage won't matter

Agree. Several people including myself have pointed out over and over that fiat is also a waste of resources. However, crypto is not replacing that problem, it is making it DRAMATICALLY worse. In fact crypto is now 27 times more expensive than fiat to produce. And by the year 2020 crypto mining will have consumed as much electricity as the entire planet if it continues on the same path.

Of course fiat is a waste of resources. That is why we need to make a digital currency that SAVES resources. Bitcoin destroys resources

[SamReomo]

I completely disagree with you. Crypto isn't doing any damage to resources but yeah making our future better by giving us a safe environment to buy goods without get worried of anything. The thing that is destroying the environment isn't mining of crypto but usage of fuels and electricity itself.
Bitcoin or any other crypto currency and their mining rigs aren't that harmful for destroying anything because there are many more destructive things that we use in our everyday life that are destroying the resources and polluting the environment.
There are many machines that are getting damaged because of electricity and if you concern is correct then why aren't you opposing them instead of miners?
Look man it's simple, just be cool and allow something new to happen in the world and your own life.

[darkangel11]

And it has worked wonders...
Have you checked the altcoin section now? I can't even read the titles correctly nowadays.
Making the thread visible will just make the others doing the same and in the end we won't be able to distinguish words from rainbow eating bears and dancing unicorns ....
And there will be, trust me

You might be right he could come here from the altcoin section. Those shitcoins are going down, time to troll the shit out of those stupid BTC holders who think they know better!

Actually for the first time he might be close to reality. Of course a twisted reality but still
He probably followed the info on this:
https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html
90% of all addresses have a balance lower than 0.1
Of course addresses/wallets/persons are different things but in the end there could only be at maximum 210 million people holding 0.1
Even if we include satoshi's coins and other that still means 3% of the population.

Not really. The difference between him saying that 90% of bitcoin holders have less than 0.1BTC each and referring the same to the population.
First of all the exact number of Bitcoin holders isn't known, and since one person can have thousands of addresses there's no data to hold on to. He's trying his best to build a whole theory an a made up fact and he knows it.

Perhaps I have explained the fees slightly wrong. But every source you read will say that bitcoin mining costs are going up.

So is the value of BTC. A completely normal thing in economy. If the bread cost $1 to make and is being sold by $2 and suddenly somebody pays you $10 for it it's natural that more people will want to make bread and the competition will increase making the resources (flour) more wanted and valuable, thus increasing their prices.

Haha I love how you tried to say one of my claims was baseless. And someone on your own FUD team instantly proved you wrong, LOL

Where did that happen? My team? I have made 1 post in this thread and I don't have a team, although if any of you guys want to cheer for me I'll be happy to oblige  

Btw, could you at least point the person you're referring to. So many people have disagreed with you in this thread that it's getting hard to see who the target of the rebuttal is.

[Iranus]

every source you read will say that bitcoin mining costs are going up.

That's correct.  The price of BTC increased and the Bitcoin fees increased, so the value of the block reward + the transaction fees (what miners receive when they mine a block) increased.

Because of this, more miners piled in to join the "lottery" and try to mine a block.  At the next difficulty adjustment (a difficulty adjustment occurs every 2016 blocks), how difficult it is to mine a block is altered in order to ensure that a block is still mined approximately every 10 minutes.

The mining costs are going up because the price is going up.  Correlation != causation.

I actually didn't see a single piece of evidence that shows bitcoin prices and mining costs aren't correlated.

Exactly.  They are correlated because if the Bitcoin price increases, the reward for miners in fiat terms when mining a block increases.  Not the other way around.

You would actually have to use quantitative modeling to prove it and not just spitting out bullshit.

Nope, you'd have to read about how Bitcoin works.