[ANN] [QRK] Quark | Core 0.10 upgrade

[pabloangello]

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/8972/quarkcoin-noble-intentions-wrong-approach/

So what's wrong with this guy's logic?

Nothing. I think he really knows what he is talking about.

Never heard such a clear explanation of the underlying problems with cryptocoins.

Quark faces a lot of problems much like other cryptocoins do.

Quark pretends to have solved a lot of those problems, but that is simply not the case.

But that doesn't mean that other coins are "better"...

it just means that no one has yet found the ultimate coin, and it is still an arms race to create the one supercoin that really has more security, stability and fair distribution.

Same audit he and many others can make for bitcoin, litecoin or whatever. In every coin existed right now you will find something that could be better, something that seems not right etc.

And another big fact to mention - this is all decentralized!! People (WE) decide what to buy for long term, what to pump, which to dump which to hold right now etc. We are the living organizm together that has its moods not necessarily consistent with the facts.

We have no ideal coin yet and without a monarchy or tyranny we will not have one coin that is "the best" in all.

That is why we just have to have a few main coins not one. Next year we will have a coins championship and this will be an interesting competition Blood will flow.

[gnode]

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/8972/quarkcoin-noble-intentions-wrong-approach/

So what's wrong with this guy's logic?

His logic is that Quark isn't perfect so consequently it is no better than bitcoin. Nothing is better than the original! Of course what would you expect for bitcoinmagazine.  

[pabloangello]

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/8972/quarkcoin-noble-intentions-wrong-approach/

So what's wrong with this guy's logic?

His logic is that Quark isn't perfect so consequently it is no better than bitcoin. Nothing is better than the original! Of course what would you expect for bitcoinmagazine.  

In people minds what is most expensive it is the best. So bitcoin is the best in human collective mind right now. Despite of that it is slow as f..ck.

[georgem]

are people dreaming - post the problems and i will post how we have solved them : lets do this :

and then i will collaborate it into a post to put onto our forum -

you start - go grab a "problem"

ok.

one problem that I thought about before and see mentioned in this article http://bitcoinmagazine.com/8972/quarkcoin-noble-intentions-wrong-approach/
is that QRK is somehow totally ASIC proof.

I understand that ASICs are customized chips that can have ANY conceivable algorithm embedded in their circuit.
Once an ASIC is created it can only do this one algorithm/task. ... but by no means is an ASIC limited to ONLY the sha-256 hash algorithm.

So qrk does NOT use the sha-256, so far so good, so at this moment all worldwide available cryptocoin ASICs are NOT suitable to be used for the QRK-hashing algorithms, but there is NOTHING that can prevent an ASIC developper from designing a chip that CAN calculate the QRK-hashing algorithms, and then go ahead and order a 100'000 of those chips at one of the big chip manufacturers.

It will cost a lot, alright. millions of dollars.

So its not worthwhile to do that,  at this moment . But what if QRK actually rises in price?

What if one QRK costs 10 dollar sometime in the future?

A smooth operator will see the chance of his life to create the QRK-ASIC, and he will probably be without competition for a year or two, mining away a big part of the million QRK that is available every year.
A good return on investment. And what if ASIC designing and creation actually drops in price even more in the future?
We see cpus and gpus drop in price all the time. ASICs will follow.

Ofcourse I am only speculating here. But I am starting to suspect that the only thing that makes QRK ASIC-proof is its low price. AND NOTHING ELSE!

PS, and ofcourse, the first QRK ASIC creator will de facto rule the network and can destroy it if he chooses to do so. But obviously he will not want to endanger his investment. But we will see a monopoly then.

Disclaimer: I am a QRK fan. But some tough love is appropriate from time to time. The time of daydreaming and wishful thinking is now over.

[digitalindustry]

are people dreaming - post the problems and i will post how we have solved them : lets do this :

and then i will collaborate it into a post to put onto our forum -

you start - go grab a "problem"

ok.

one problem that I thought about before and see mentioned in this article http://bitcoinmagazine.com/8972/quarkcoin-noble-intentions-wrong-approach/
is that QRK is somehow totally ASIC proof.

I understand that ASICs are customized chips that can have ANY conceivable algorithm embedded in their circuit.
Once an ASIC is created it can only do this one algorithm/task. ... but by no means is an ASIC limited to ONLY the sha-256 hash algorithm.

So qrk does NOT use the sha-256, so far so good, so at this moment all worldwide available cryptocoin ASICs are NOT suitable to be used for the QRK-hashing algorithms, but there is NOTHING that can prevent an ASIC developper from designing a chip that CAN calculate the QRK-hashing algorithms, and then go ahead and order a 100'000 of those chips at one of the big chip manufacturers.

It will cost a lot, alright. millions of dollars.

So its not worthwhile to do that,  at this moment . But what if QRK actually rises in price?

What if one QRK costs 10 dollar sometime in the future?

A smooth operator will see the chance of his life to create the QRK-ASIC, and he will probably be without competition for a year or two, mining away a big part of the million QRK that is available every year.
A good return on investment. And what if ASIC designing and creation actually drops in price even more in the future?
We see cpus and gpus drop in price all the time. ASICs will follow.

Ofcourse I am only speculating here. But I am starting to suspect that the only thing that makes QRK ASIC-proof is its low price. AND NOTHING ELSE!

PS, and ofcourse, the first QRK ASIC creator will de facto rule the network and can destroy it if he chooses to do so.

now we are getting somewhere -

Ok so for an ASIC to be made they would need to have 6 different chips on the board - ok , that's more justifies a $100 + to $500 Per Quark price point -

so we have the EQ reward coming up right + fees  (we will likely add some fees to the EQ reward as extra incentive)  http://forum.qrk.cc/thread/874/quark-secured-after-initial-distribution

so lets assume the worst OK - ASIC rush to get the whole lot of that EQ+fee reward    = ok so what are they getting and what are they doing with it ?

are people suggesting  that ASICs will rush to horde the EQ+fee reward , all that will do is drive the price higher ?


you see the point is this:

here is Bitcoin:

http://bitcoindifficulty.com/

with 40% + to go -

Quark is in the hands of investors and being spread further every day .


* keep them  coming i will have to edit them for the post -  


** of course by the time an ASIC is designed to do this at 500$ + ASICS will be in your hand watch and $2 a piece - our you will make it yourself -

[georgem]

Same audit he and many others can make for bitcoin, litecoin or whatever. In every coin existed right now you will find something that could be better, something that seems not right etc.
And another big fact to mention - this is all decentralized!! People (WE) decide what to buy for long term, what to pump, which to dump which to hold right now etc. We are the living organizm together that has its moods not necessarily consistent with the facts.

Yes, and although I think this community feeling is awesome and important.... if the underlying mathematics ARE FLAWED then community is pretty much useless.

Remember, the reason why cryptos exist in the first place is because the underlying mathematics are an incredible breakthru for humanity. No need for central authority or trust.

First priority is always sound mathematics.
Second priority (once first priority is established) is a good community.

You can't have the second without the first. But you can have the first without the second. 

Let's imagine the bitcoin algorithm never appeared on the world stage... no amount of good-hearted community would have created this phenomena we see now. People created complementary currencies all the time in human history, but they ALWAYS faced problems like counterfeit and doublespend, and therefore never really were successful enough to challenge the status quo.

So good mathematics is the enabler of cryptocoins. It's what makes the dream a reality, so a community of awakened people can grow around it.
If you try and do that without mathematics, you are only creating a cult, a religion, based on wishful thinking.

We have no ideal coin yet and without a monarchy or tyranny we will not have one coin that is "the best" in all.

Wait a minute. What will make a coin the best is free market competition and therefore a real tough evolution where only the best survives, and losers disappear.
It has nothing to do with a monarchy or tyranny. I don't understand how you can spin it this way.

[Pantagruel]

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Quark only as strong as the weakest of its hashing functions ?

[digitalindustry]

Same audit he and many others can make for bitcoin, litecoin or whatever. In every coin existed right now you will find something that could be better, something that seems not right etc.
And another big fact to mention - this is all decentralized!! People (WE) decide what to buy for long term, what to pump, which to dump which to hold right now etc. We are the living organizm together that has its moods not necessarily consistent with the facts.

Yes, and although I think this community feeling is awesome and important.... if the underlying mathematics ARE FLAWED then community is pretty much useless.

Remember, the reason why cryptos exist in the first place is because the underlying mathematics are an incredible breakthru for humanity. No need for central authority or trust.

First priority is always sound mathematics.
Second priority (once first priority is established) is a good community.

You can't have the second without the first. But you can have the first without the second. 

Let's imagine the bitcoin algorithm never appeared on the world stage... no amount of good-hearted community would have created this phenomena we see now. People created complementary currencies all the time in human history, but they ALWAYS faced problems like counterfeit and doublespend, and therefore never really were successful enough to challenge the status quo.

So good mathematics is the enabler of cryptocoins. It's what makes the dream a reality, so a community of awakened people can grow around it.
If you try and do that without mathematics, you are only creating a cult, a religion, based on wishful thinking.

We have no ideal coin yet and without a monarchy or tyranny we will not have one coin that is "the best" in all.

Wait a minute. What will make a coin the best is free market competition and therefore a real tough evolution where only the best survives, and losers disappear.
It has nothing to do with a monarchy or tyranny. I don't understand how you can spin it this way.

not claiming "the best" mathematics  just claiming as secure as Bitcoin - that's all  -

people have personal differences about the SHA256 being designed by the NSA and registered with NIST - , but personally i don't find this a huge issue -

its a non issue for me -  

i have always had a problem with the centralization - and distribution model =

[achillez]

Guys, rly, why is this coin slowly dropping day for day, whats wrong with it ?

because the QRK run is over, early adopters made 40000% from beginning/middle November until it hit 0.000289 in December

there's not much interest in this coin except people hoarding waiting to dump it when it reaches certain highs, it's pretty much dead at the moment

There is tremendous attention and adoption in quark tho.

I still hold my QRK for a reason. Anyhow, compared to others it's really not doing well.

it obtained too much interest from people that wanted to slam it (e.g., reddit), negatively publicity pushed it down. However, just like bitcoin I suspect it's going to bounce back up. Unlike a bunch of the other coins (*cough* dogecoin) it actually has a purpose and a real community. I'm hoping QRK will ultimately bounce back to 0.0002+  

dogecoin isn't even funny anymore rather annoying. All the spams and that stupid dogface. The hype is over volume on cryptsy has been crashing down.

Yah I feel really really bad for all the people that invested in it. They probably saw that they could buy 1 million coins for 0.1 BTC and thought it was a great deal. It's too bad they didn't read these forums calling it out as a scam.

[digitalindustry]

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Quark only as strong as the weakest of its hashing functions ?

you are wrong -

and SHA256 is only one hash function - ?

[georgem]

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Quark only as strong as the weakest of its hashing functions ?

No, the hashing functions are applied one after the other.

The result of the first hash becomes the input of the second hash, the result of the second hash becomes the input of the third hash and so forth.

So it's more like the layers of onion skin, and NOT like a chain (with a weakest link)

so, in pseudo code:

hash9(hash8(hash7(hash6(hash5(hash4(hash3(hash2(hash1(...)))))))))

(now correct me if I am wrong)

[georgem]

so we have the EQ reward coming up right

When will this come up, and is this already inspectable at github?

[digitalindustry]

so we have the EQ reward coming up right

When will this come up, and is this already inspectable at github?

very soon - in days and 100% yes we already have made changes and are making changes now -  We have very Active devs - they don't like to talk but check out the next Wallet - : )

[georgem]

not claiming "the best" mathematics  just claiming as secure as Bitcoin - that's all  -

people have personal differences about the SHA256 being designed by the NSA and registered with NIST - , but personally i don't find this a huge issue -

its a non issue for me -  

i have always had a problem with the centralization - and distribution model =

I agree. Evolution is about surviving, and not about being the best.

So while I think that qrk is interesting at the moment, I hope it will not end up as the Hors d'oeuvre of the upcoming t-rex coin.

And about the NSA thing, to be honest I don't care.

The whole early internet was largely based on US military research... and look what humanity has done with it. Government has created it's own biggest enemy. That's how it goes.

So as long as something is open source and available for everybody to inspect I really don't care if some bad guys participated in it at early times (for whatever reason)


Government bureaucrats never understand the future implications of some research they are doing... ofcourse not, they are not free market enterprises who have to understand something to make a profit.
I see them as very well funded but inneficient goons, who are allowed to do all that because we have this taxation system based on force and coercion.

But that doesn't mean that government mathematics can't be useful for us at a later moment. Science is science.
Math is neither good nor evil,  it's just a tool.

[Pantagruel]

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Quark only as strong as the weakest of its hashing functions ?

No, the hashing functions are applied one after the other.

The result of the first hash becomes the input of the second hash, the result of the second hash becomes the input of the third hash and so forth.

So it's more like the layers of onion skin, and NOT like a chain (with a weakest link)

so, in pseudo code:

hash9(hash8(hash7(hash6(hash5(hash4(hash3(hash2(hash1(...)))))))))

(now correct me if I am wrong)

OK thanks for your answer georgem. So if one of the hashing functions was compromised, then the others would do the job anyway...

Now that's interesting. That would make Quark the most secure of all the alt-cryptos out there ?

[Sparood]

This thread is finally going somewhere. Adress issues and questions in a polite way.

Enjoy reading your tough love georgem

[georgem]

very soon - in days and 100% yes we already have made changes and are making changes now -  We have very Active devs - they don't like to talk but check out the next Wallet - : )

but they should talk more, lol 

[digitalindustry]

not claiming "the best" mathematics  just claiming as secure as Bitcoin - that's all  -

people have personal differences about the SHA256 being designed by the NSA and registered with NIST - , but personally i don't find this a huge issue -

its a non issue for me -  

i have always had a problem with the centralization - and distribution model =

I agree. Evolution is about surviving, and not about being the best.

So while I think that qrk is interesting at the moment, I hope it will not end up as the Hors d'oeuvre of the upcoming t-rex coin.

And about the NSA thing, to be honest I don't care.

The whole early internet was largely based on US military research... and look what humanity has done with it. Government has created it's own biggest enemy. That's how it goes.

So as long as something is open source and available for everybody to inspect I really don't care if some bad guys participated in it at early times (for whatever reason)


Government bureaucrats never understand the future implications of some research they are doing... ofcourse not, they are not free market enterprises who have to understand something to make a profit.
I see them as very well funded but inneficient goons, who are allowed to do all that because we have this taxation system based on force and coercion.

But that doesn't mean that government mathematics can't be useful for us at a later moment. Science is science.
Math is neither good nor evil,  it's just a tool.

actually very well said  +1

[Pantagruel]

This thread is finally going somewhere. Adress issues and questions in a polite way.

Enjoy reading your tough love georgem

I agree, it's getting very hard to find untrolled discussions.

Now about these 6 algorithms : blake, bmw, groestl, jh, keccak, skein... I wonder which one is the most secure ? Some of them must have their drawbacks ?

[Bitcoin2CDKey]

btc38.com under maintenance, is quark coming?