Bitcoin Forum
December 14, 2017, 09:57:06 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  

Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

Pages: « 1 ... 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 [345] 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 ... 914 »
  Print  
Author Topic: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining)  (Read 1058520 times)
drawingthesun
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1078


View Profile
September 11, 2013, 03:58:22 AM
 #6881

Unless they are stupid I really wonder why they decided to solo mine, they could have been collecting revenue from the get go and the first dividend would be very nice. (Might not be a lot but its something)

With the hash rate increase solomining with 0.002% of network power seems like a bad idea.

There must be a reason.

pooled mining is easier to verify – everyone will be able to see the hashrate

Oh there it is.
1513288626
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513288626

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513288626
Reply with quote  #2

1513288626
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1513288626
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513288626

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513288626
Reply with quote  #2

1513288626
Report to moderator
dwdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 966


- - -Caveat Aleo- - -


View Profile
September 11, 2013, 04:05:30 AM
 #6882

Anyway, here's an example to help show why solo mining is a terrible idea.

Let's imagine two players playing a game. One player flips a coin 10 times and gets $1 every time it comes up heads.  On average, he'll make $5.

The other player has a 20 sided die, which he rolls 10 times.  If it comes up with a '1' he gets $10  On average Just like the coin flipper, on average he gets $5. 

The reason is that the coin flip has 2 possibilities, on of which is winning, and the die roller has 20 possibilities, one of which wins 10x as much.  So in the long run they make the same amount of money.

Now, in the long run the amount of money they make is the same.  Sometimes the dice roller will never roll one, sometimes they'll roll a 1 twice and every once in a while they'll role a 1 every single time and make $200!   All of that should even out in the end.

But, let's change the rules and say after 10 flips/rolls the reward is halved, from $1 to $0.5, to $0.25, etc.   And from $10, to $5, to $2.50. (Sound familiar?)

In that case, if the person has bad luck in one round, they will never have the opportunity to earn that back by having good luck in a later round!

Now, I suppose that doesn't matter as much if you're constantly adding hash power to keep up with the network, but there's no guarantee labcoin will be able to do that.  ASICMiner is down from 20% to like 6%.    And they could have good early luck instead of bad early luck, which won't be balanced out by bad luck in the future.

However, investors are already taking enough risk as it is with this stock, and you should not be gambling with investor money, which is what solo mining at 2TH/s is doing. Plus, pooled mining is easier to verify – everyone will be able to see the hashrate, and when blocks are found by the pool and calculate how much they should be getting.

So yeah, I don't think Labcoin should be solo mining at this point. 

However it is just as likely the solo miner will be lucky as unlucky and therefore just as likely he will make more money early than the pooled miner.  The risk is greater, but the potential gain is equal to the risk. Another way to look at it is that the pooled miner risks not having a chance of making a big early score before difficulty increases.
Ytterbium
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238



View Profile WWW
September 11, 2013, 04:08:55 AM
 #6883

Unless they are stupid I really wonder why they decided to solo mine, they could have been collecting revenue from the get go and the first dividend would be very nice. (Might not be a lot but its something)

With the hash rate increase solomining with 0.002% of network power seems like a bad idea.

There must be a reason.

pooled mining is easier to verify – everyone will be able to see the hashrate

Oh there it is.

Well, they may be worried about things like, they might have to shut down and restart their systems, they might have small amounts of downtime, etc and they don't want people to flip out.  It's understandable they might not want to share everything in real time at first. But still, I'm hoping they come to their senses.

And, until they start marking blocks, they need to give us the TXIds of blocks they find. Some of them have huge TX fees, like this one from that address someone mentioned, with a 12btc tx fee. That's a $1,400 fee


However it is just as likely the solo miner will be lucky as unlucky and therefore just as likely he will make more money early than the pooled miner.  The risk is greater, but the potential gain is equal to the risk. Another way to look at it is that the pooled miner risks not having a chance of making a big early score before difficulty increases.

The risk and reward are balanced but the variance is far higher.  it's not at all the same.

Think about it this way.  You put your money in a bank with zero interest. The risk is zero and the reward is zero.

Now suppose you put your money in a bank, and that bank took that money to Vegas and bet it all on black (for now ignore the 00 and assume a 50% red/black wheel)

In this case, your risk of losing all your money would be 50%, and your potential reward is 200%.  They balance out! So it's totally the same as putting your money in the bank and having it sit there, right? Since the expected outcome is the same!

obviously people would be incredibly pissed if they found out about it. A lot of people would probably even be pissed if the bank won and their accounts doubled.

Because the entire point of investing is to increase your reward at the same risk.  not take on extra risk for no extra reward.

Pool on BTCGuild PPLNS are around 3%.  So for labcoin to do solo mining, they are essentially putting investor money at risk in exchange for a 3% increase in potential profit. And at the same time, because of the difficulty increases runs of bad luck are not going to be recovered by runs of good luck in the future. Any money lost at high difficulty is lost forever.  Massively increasing variance in order to capture a 3% increase in expected value is ridiculous.

Plus, they don't even have their block marking code ready yet. So people are going to be suspicious about it being a total scam, or that they might not actually be hashing yet.

If Labcoin wants to do solo mining when they hit 50% Th/s, that's fine I suppose. But not even ASICMiner did solo mining when they started.  They mined on a pool (On BTCGuild, as well as ozcoin, I think)

Hopefully they come to their senses.

And probably they will.  If they're solo mining and marking their blocks publicly, how's it going to look when they go days without finding a block.  Investors are going to be flipping out. If you think this thread is bad, just wait. It will happen. And hopefully it changes their minds.

freedomno1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372


Activity: 9001 == OP


View Profile WWW
September 11, 2013, 05:22:27 AM
 #6884

What?!? You're not into purple ponies? Huh

The ponies oddly enough were the highlight of this week  Cool
I do see a correlation between ponies and this thread since its usually off topic most of the time whistle and spreads doom a lot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYaYhNDnImk

As for namecoin mining merged mining still comes in handy may as well get the namecoins while they are at it unless there is a cost to doing so.
dwdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 966


- - -Caveat Aleo- - -


View Profile
September 11, 2013, 05:27:46 AM
 #6885

Think about it this way.  You put your money in a bank with zero interest. The risk is zero and the reward is zero.

Now suppose you put your money in a bank, and that bank took that money to Vegas and bet it all on black (for now ignore the 00 and assume a 50% red/black wheel) ]In this case, your risk of losing all your money would be 50%, and your potential reward is 200%.  They balance out! So it's totally the same as putting your money in the bank and having it sit there, right? Since the expected outcome is the same!

obviously people would be incredibly pissed if they found out about it. A lot of people would probably even be pissed if the bank won and their accounts doubled.




Actually a closer analogy would be if the bank charged you 3% if you just let it sit there but told you they would charge 0% interest if they could bet half the deposit on red/black only roulette today, and a week later bet one quarter, then one eight, etc.

Also early low hashrate dividends are going to be very small regardless of the method.

However, I admit I like to watch my balance slowly increase in my pool and agree it would be boring to stare at a solo miner doing nothing 99% of the time...


Ytterbium
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238



View Profile WWW
September 11, 2013, 05:32:12 AM
 #6886

Pool on BTCGuild PPLNS are around 3%.  So for labcoin to do solo mining, they are essentially putting investor money at risk in exchange for a 3% increase in potential profit.
Pools with merged mining (like BTCGuild) can actually give you 100% in BTC or more, after trading the coins. Unless they set up their solo mining to mine Namecoins too but somehow I doubt it.

Heh, you just reminded me to check my namecoin settings on BTCGuild, apparently I've gotten about 4.2 NMC per BTC, and at the current BTC-e price of 0.00472, that comes out to about 0.01975 BTC worth of namecoin per bitcoin, or about 2%.

And yeah, that drops the pool fee to around 1%.


Actually a closer analogy would be if the bank charged you 3% if you just let it sit there but told you they would charge 0% interest if they could bet half the deposit on red/black only roulette today, and a week later bet one quarter, then one eight, etc.

Also early low hashrate dividends are going to be very small regardless of the method.

However, I admit I like to watch my balance slowly increase in my pool and agree it would be boring to stare at a solo miner doing nothing 99% of the time...

Right I pointed that out, they're not exactly the same, there is also a pool fee.

However, like I said you have to balance risk and reward.  Solo mining at 2Th/s in order to avoid Pool fees means taking a huge risk, when the reward is just a 3% savings in pool fees (and just 1% if you sell your NMC). I don't really think it's a good idea.

Plus as you say, people want to see the money coming in, especially when the company is brand new and there's so much skepticism. Mining on a pool would both reduce risk in the short term, as well as provide an easy and verifiable way to view the hashrate (putting the hashrate on the site isn't verifiable)

superduh
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 602


View Profile
September 11, 2013, 08:13:33 AM
 #6887

self mining at 50th makes sense, at 4th makes 0 sense....
strange actions. comeon labcoin - do smart things and don't be scam Smiley

ok
Ytterbium
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238



View Profile WWW
September 11, 2013, 08:55:05 AM
 #6888

Actually, my curiosity got the better of me - I started looking through the some of the recent blocks on blockexplorer, and found a couple IPs that just started relaying blocks in the past couple days.

The current difficulty is 86,933,018, so on average you need to compute 86,933,018 diff1 shares to find a block - one block requires 4 billion hashes. 2Th/s should find 500 Diff1 shares in a second, or 43 million shares a day. 86/43 = 2, so at 2Th/s you'd expect to find one block in two days at that rate, soo... labcoin should have found one block by now

Anyway, there's 50.116.37.18, the first of which was relayed on 9/10 @ 11:46  (I assume UTC)

So far it's relayed 4 blocks.  The first three blocks had their rewards sent to: 18cSDzSuRa4BtfKNu4qAPfeiS57uC9kER4 and the most recent went too 1KP4Lr8t42MDHhE6asnp8jd7QdfMiWeawr

Oh, and if you do a reverse DNS lookup on 50.116.37.18, it's owned by linode.com, which as we know is Labcoin's hosting provider.

Then there's 129.132.188.112, which has relayed two blocks and sent them to 1LZcEKMCFfg9ARpgw3jG3yZxAV5kPt8mM9.  The reverse DNS  resolves inf-isec-112.ethz.ch, which seems to belong to a Swiss university.

All the other blocks either belonged to known pools or seemed to be sending coins to addresses that had gotten lots of newly generated coins prior to 9/10, so likely long-standing mining farms.

Anyway, Labcoin should be telling us which blocks they've found, since they've been hashing for about two days they should have found one by now. If not - well that's a pretty clear example of why they shouldn't be solo mining.

ferskvare
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 36


View Profile
September 11, 2013, 09:08:14 AM
 #6889

Wow, you're a pretty decent Private Investigator, Ytterbium. Thanks for actually taking time to do these things, and put in the work Smiley
AngelSky
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 616



View Profile
September 11, 2013, 09:13:18 AM
 #6890

Thnx for the research

       ▄▄█▀▀▀▀▀▀▀█▄▄
    ▄█▀▀▄▄███████▄▄▀▀█▄
  ▄█▀▄████▀▄▄▄▄▄▀████▄▀█▄
 ▄█ █████▀█ ▄▄▄ █▀█████ █▄
▄█ █████   █████   █████ █▄
█ ██████   ▀███▀   ██████ █
█ ███████         ███████ █
█ ██████   ▄███▄   ██████ █
▀█ █████   █████   █████ █▀

 ▀█ █████▄█ ▀▀▀ █▄█████ █▀
  ▀█▄▀████▄▀▀▀▀▀▄████▀▄█▀

    ▀█▄▄▀▀███████▀▀▄▄█▀
       ▀▀█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀▀




 ▄█████████ ███      ███  ▄█████  ▄█████  ▄████████▄   ▄████████▄   ▄█████████ ███       ███
███▀        ███      ███ ███▀    ███▀    ███▀    ▀███ ███▀    ▀███ ███▀        ███       ███
███         ███      ███ ███     ███     ████████████ ███      ███ ███         ███▄     ▄███
███▄        ███▄    ▄███ ███     ███     ███▄         ███      ███ ███▄         ▀███████████
 ▀█████████  ▀████████▀  ███     ███      ▀█████      ███      ███  ▀█████████          ▄███
                                                                                     █████▀
























BitCsByBit
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252


View Profile
September 11, 2013, 09:16:47 AM
 #6891

For me 50.116.37.18 redirects to https://ltcexchange.bitparking.com/main

Tipsy jar: 1HgfLMXiJQj9KZ7abLRh9rWuR7dgeSyub4
ferskvare
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 36


View Profile
September 11, 2013, 10:12:21 AM
 #6892

For me 50.116.37.18 redirects to https://ltcexchange.bitparking.com/main

50.116.37.18 resolves to
"li435-18.members.linode.com"
Top Level Domain: "linode.com"

You can check it yourself pretty easily here: https://www.misk.com/tools/?source=google&campaign=reversedns&key=reverse%20dns&medium=cpc&gclid=CNj6wK2Qw7kCFRR6cAodVGsA5g#whois/50.116.37.18
Or here: http://remote.12dt.com/lookup.php (you will have to paste the IP yourself)
Or here: http://whois.net/reverse-dns-ip-lookup/ (also have to paste yourself).

So that's 3 sources confirming the IP. Anything else?
BitThink
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 882



View Profile
September 11, 2013, 10:24:17 AM
 #6893

It's really important to keep the transparency of block mining to avoid stealing coins. However, it's really difficult too. They can easily prove they are mining, but not easy to prove all coins mined will go to the public pool. Nonetheless I will say we don't need to worry about this in this stage yet. With 2T, in average 1 block every 3 days can be mined. In other words, we can get around 9 BTC per day, 0.0000009BTC per share per day. BTW, it's totally possible to get nothing in a week considering they are solo mining.
Vigil
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378


View Profile
September 11, 2013, 12:28:38 PM
 #6894

Is the "update" coming today?
limbaugh
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302



View Profile
September 11, 2013, 12:32:14 PM
 #6895

Is the "update" coming today?

TheSwede promised an update today.
Bitcycle
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 420


View Profile
September 11, 2013, 12:56:17 PM
 #6896

Is the "update" coming today?

TheSwede promised an update today.


Yeah, they need to update today with at least some sort of meaningful detail, or even I won't defend them.
TsuyokuNaritai
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 574



View Profile
September 11, 2013, 01:26:53 PM
 #6897

For comparison...

ASICMiner's stopped mining. No blocks for 15 hours now, no explanation.

Reaction on AM thread: a few short, fairly calm posts wondering what's happening & some good-natured jokes about Friedcat selling all the blades.

Can you imagine how this thread would have reacted? Bitcointalk would grind to a halt from so much troll FUD, sheep panic & animated GIFs of ponies throwing themselves out of windows.

JimiQ84
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406


View Profile
September 11, 2013, 01:28:50 PM
 #6898

For comparison...

ASICMiner's stopped mining. No blocks for 15 hours now, no explanation.

Reaction on AM thread: a few short, fairly calm posts wondering what's happening & some good-natured jokes about Friedcat selling all the blades.

Can you imagine how this thread would have reacted? Bitcointalk would grind to a halt from so much troll FUD, sheep panic & animated GIFs of ponies throwing themselves out of windows.

That's probably because friedcat has payed 6 times IPO on dividends. He has earned trust
aquarius
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 275



View Profile
September 11, 2013, 01:29:04 PM
 #6899

For comparison...

ASICMiner's stopped mining. No blocks for 15 hours now, no explanation.

Reaction on AM thread: a few short, fairly calm posts wondering what's happening & some good-natured jokes about Friedcat selling all the blades.

Can you imagine how this thread would have reacted? Bitcointalk would grind to a halt from so much troll FUD, sheep panic & animated GIFs of ponies throwing themselves out of windows.

that is of course because Friedcat has shown in the past that he is credible and have kept his promises.

these labcoin clowns.. not so much.

velacreations
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476


View Profile
September 11, 2013, 01:45:57 PM
 #6900

For comparison...

ASICMiner's stopped mining. No blocks for 15 hours now, no explanation.

Reaction on AM thread: a few short, fairly calm posts wondering what's happening & some good-natured jokes about Friedcat selling all the blades.

Can you imagine how this thread would have reacted? Bitcointalk would grind to a halt from so much troll FUD, sheep panic & animated GIFs of ponies throwing themselves out of windows.

When Labcoin has over a year of delivering results, then people will react differently when something happens.

Hell, we can't even get LC to show us that they are mining in the first place!

Pages: « 1 ... 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 [345] 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 ... 914 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!