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Author Topic: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining)  (Read 1079977 times)
Ytterbium
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September 11, 2013, 04:08:55 AM
Last edit: September 11, 2013, 04:29:13 AM by Ytterbium
 #6881

Unless they are stupid I really wonder why they decided to solo mine, they could have been collecting revenue from the get go and the first dividend would be very nice. (Might not be a lot but its something)

With the hash rate increase solomining with 0.002% of network power seems like a bad idea.

There must be a reason.

pooled mining is easier to verify – everyone will be able to see the hashrate

Oh there it is.

Well, they may be worried about things like, they might have to shut down and restart their systems, they might have small amounts of downtime, etc and they don't want people to flip out.  It's understandable they might not want to share everything in real time at first. But still, I'm hoping they come to their senses.

And, until they start marking blocks, they need to give us the TXIds of blocks they find. Some of them have huge TX fees, like this one from that address someone mentioned, with a 12btc tx fee. That's a $1,400 fee


However it is just as likely the solo miner will be lucky as unlucky and therefore just as likely he will make more money early than the pooled miner.  The risk is greater, but the potential gain is equal to the risk. Another way to look at it is that the pooled miner risks not having a chance of making a big early score before difficulty increases.

The risk and reward are balanced but the variance is far higher.  it's not at all the same.

Think about it this way.  You put your money in a bank with zero interest. The risk is zero and the reward is zero.

Now suppose you put your money in a bank, and that bank took that money to Vegas and bet it all on black (for now ignore the 00 and assume a 50% red/black wheel)

In this case, your risk of losing all your money would be 50%, and your potential reward is 200%.  They balance out! So it's totally the same as putting your money in the bank and having it sit there, right? Since the expected outcome is the same!

obviously people would be incredibly pissed if they found out about it. A lot of people would probably even be pissed if the bank won and their accounts doubled.

Because the entire point of investing is to increase your reward at the same risk.  not take on extra risk for no extra reward.

Pool on BTCGuild PPLNS are around 3%.  So for labcoin to do solo mining, they are essentially putting investor money at risk in exchange for a 3% increase in potential profit. And at the same time, because of the difficulty increases runs of bad luck are not going to be recovered by runs of good luck in the future. Any money lost at high difficulty is lost forever.  Massively increasing variance in order to capture a 3% increase in expected value is ridiculous.

Plus, they don't even have their block marking code ready yet. So people are going to be suspicious about it being a total scam, or that they might not actually be hashing yet.

If Labcoin wants to do solo mining when they hit 50% Th/s, that's fine I suppose. But not even ASICMiner did solo mining when they started.  They mined on a pool (On BTCGuild, as well as ozcoin, I think)

Hopefully they come to their senses.

And probably they will.  If they're solo mining and marking their blocks publicly, how's it going to look when they go days without finding a block.  Investors are going to be flipping out. If you think this thread is bad, just wait. It will happen. And hopefully it changes their minds.

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September 11, 2013, 05:22:27 AM
Last edit: September 11, 2013, 05:36:05 AM by freedomno1
 #6882

What?!? You're not into purple ponies? Huh

The ponies oddly enough were the highlight of this week  Cool
I do see a correlation between ponies and this thread since its usually off topic most of the time whistle and spreads doom a lot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYaYhNDnImk

As for namecoin mining merged mining still comes in handy may as well get the namecoins while they are at it unless there is a cost to doing so.

Believing in Bitcoins and it's ability to change the world
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September 11, 2013, 05:27:46 AM
 #6883

Think about it this way.  You put your money in a bank with zero interest. The risk is zero and the reward is zero.

Now suppose you put your money in a bank, and that bank took that money to Vegas and bet it all on black (for now ignore the 00 and assume a 50% red/black wheel) ]In this case, your risk of losing all your money would be 50%, and your potential reward is 200%.  They balance out! So it's totally the same as putting your money in the bank and having it sit there, right? Since the expected outcome is the same!

obviously people would be incredibly pissed if they found out about it. A lot of people would probably even be pissed if the bank won and their accounts doubled.




Actually a closer analogy would be if the bank charged you 3% if you just let it sit there but told you they would charge 0% interest if they could bet half the deposit on red/black only roulette today, and a week later bet one quarter, then one eight, etc.

Also early low hashrate dividends are going to be very small regardless of the method.

However, I admit I like to watch my balance slowly increase in my pool and agree it would be boring to stare at a solo miner doing nothing 99% of the time...


Ytterbium
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September 11, 2013, 05:32:12 AM
 #6884

Pool on BTCGuild PPLNS are around 3%.  So for labcoin to do solo mining, they are essentially putting investor money at risk in exchange for a 3% increase in potential profit.
Pools with merged mining (like BTCGuild) can actually give you 100% in BTC or more, after trading the coins. Unless they set up their solo mining to mine Namecoins too but somehow I doubt it.

Heh, you just reminded me to check my namecoin settings on BTCGuild, apparently I've gotten about 4.2 NMC per BTC, and at the current BTC-e price of 0.00472, that comes out to about 0.01975 BTC worth of namecoin per bitcoin, or about 2%.

And yeah, that drops the pool fee to around 1%.


Actually a closer analogy would be if the bank charged you 3% if you just let it sit there but told you they would charge 0% interest if they could bet half the deposit on red/black only roulette today, and a week later bet one quarter, then one eight, etc.

Also early low hashrate dividends are going to be very small regardless of the method.

However, I admit I like to watch my balance slowly increase in my pool and agree it would be boring to stare at a solo miner doing nothing 99% of the time...

Right I pointed that out, they're not exactly the same, there is also a pool fee.

However, like I said you have to balance risk and reward.  Solo mining at 2Th/s in order to avoid Pool fees means taking a huge risk, when the reward is just a 3% savings in pool fees (and just 1% if you sell your NMC). I don't really think it's a good idea.

Plus as you say, people want to see the money coming in, especially when the company is brand new and there's so much skepticism. Mining on a pool would both reduce risk in the short term, as well as provide an easy and verifiable way to view the hashrate (putting the hashrate on the site isn't verifiable)

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September 11, 2013, 08:13:33 AM
 #6885

self mining at 50th makes sense, at 4th makes 0 sense....
strange actions. comeon labcoin - do smart things and don't be scam Smiley

ok
Ytterbium
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September 11, 2013, 08:55:05 AM
 #6886

Actually, my curiosity got the better of me - I started looking through the some of the recent blocks on blockexplorer, and found a couple IPs that just started relaying blocks in the past couple days.

The current difficulty is 86,933,018, so on average you need to compute 86,933,018 diff1 shares to find a block - one block requires 4 billion hashes. 2Th/s should find 500 Diff1 shares in a second, or 43 million shares a day. 86/43 = 2, so at 2Th/s you'd expect to find one block in two days at that rate, soo... labcoin should have found one block by now

Anyway, there's 50.116.37.18, the first of which was relayed on 9/10 @ 11:46  (I assume UTC)

So far it's relayed 4 blocks.  The first three blocks had their rewards sent to: 18cSDzSuRa4BtfKNu4qAPfeiS57uC9kER4 and the most recent went too 1KP4Lr8t42MDHhE6asnp8jd7QdfMiWeawr

Oh, and if you do a reverse DNS lookup on 50.116.37.18, it's owned by linode.com, which as we know is Labcoin's hosting provider.

Then there's 129.132.188.112, which has relayed two blocks and sent them to 1LZcEKMCFfg9ARpgw3jG3yZxAV5kPt8mM9.  The reverse DNS  resolves inf-isec-112.ethz.ch, which seems to belong to a Swiss university.

All the other blocks either belonged to known pools or seemed to be sending coins to addresses that had gotten lots of newly generated coins prior to 9/10, so likely long-standing mining farms.

Anyway, Labcoin should be telling us which blocks they've found, since they've been hashing for about two days they should have found one by now. If not - well that's a pretty clear example of why they shouldn't be solo mining.

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September 11, 2013, 09:08:14 AM
 #6887

Wow, you're a pretty decent Private Investigator, Ytterbium. Thanks for actually taking time to do these things, and put in the work Smiley
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September 11, 2013, 09:13:18 AM
 #6888

Thnx for the research
BitCsByBit
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September 11, 2013, 09:16:47 AM
 #6889

For me 50.116.37.18 redirects to https://ltcexchange.bitparking.com/main

Tipsy jar: 1HgfLMXiJQj9KZ7abLRh9rWuR7dgeSyub4
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September 11, 2013, 10:12:21 AM
Last edit: September 11, 2013, 10:26:57 AM by ferskvare
 #6890

For me 50.116.37.18 redirects to https://ltcexchange.bitparking.com/main

50.116.37.18 resolves to
"li435-18.members.linode.com"
Top Level Domain: "linode.com"

You can check it yourself pretty easily here: https://www.misk.com/tools/?source=google&campaign=reversedns&key=reverse%20dns&medium=cpc&gclid=CNj6wK2Qw7kCFRR6cAodVGsA5g#whois/50.116.37.18
Or here: http://remote.12dt.com/lookup.php (you will have to paste the IP yourself)
Or here: http://whois.net/reverse-dns-ip-lookup/ (also have to paste yourself).

So that's 3 sources confirming the IP. Anything else?
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September 11, 2013, 10:24:17 AM
 #6891

It's really important to keep the transparency of block mining to avoid stealing coins. However, it's really difficult too. They can easily prove they are mining, but not easy to prove all coins mined will go to the public pool. Nonetheless I will say we don't need to worry about this in this stage yet. With 2T, in average 1 block every 3 days can be mined. In other words, we can get around 9 BTC per day, 0.0000009BTC per share per day. BTW, it's totally possible to get nothing in a week considering they are solo mining.
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September 11, 2013, 12:28:38 PM
 #6892

Is the "update" coming today?
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September 11, 2013, 12:32:14 PM
 #6893

Is the "update" coming today?

TheSwede promised an update today.
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September 11, 2013, 12:56:17 PM
 #6894

Is the "update" coming today?

TheSwede promised an update today.


Yeah, they need to update today with at least some sort of meaningful detail, or even I won't defend them.
TsuyokuNaritai
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September 11, 2013, 01:26:53 PM
 #6895

For comparison...

ASICMiner's stopped mining. No blocks for 15 hours now, no explanation.

Reaction on AM thread: a few short, fairly calm posts wondering what's happening & some good-natured jokes about Friedcat selling all the blades.

Can you imagine how this thread would have reacted? Bitcointalk would grind to a halt from so much troll FUD, sheep panic & animated GIFs of ponies throwing themselves out of windows.

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September 11, 2013, 01:28:50 PM
 #6896

For comparison...

ASICMiner's stopped mining. No blocks for 15 hours now, no explanation.

Reaction on AM thread: a few short, fairly calm posts wondering what's happening & some good-natured jokes about Friedcat selling all the blades.

Can you imagine how this thread would have reacted? Bitcointalk would grind to a halt from so much troll FUD, sheep panic & animated GIFs of ponies throwing themselves out of windows.

That's probably because friedcat has payed 6 times IPO on dividends. He has earned trust
aquarius
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September 11, 2013, 01:29:04 PM
 #6897

For comparison...

ASICMiner's stopped mining. No blocks for 15 hours now, no explanation.

Reaction on AM thread: a few short, fairly calm posts wondering what's happening & some good-natured jokes about Friedcat selling all the blades.

Can you imagine how this thread would have reacted? Bitcointalk would grind to a halt from so much troll FUD, sheep panic & animated GIFs of ponies throwing themselves out of windows.

that is of course because Friedcat has shown in the past that he is credible and have kept his promises.

these labcoin clowns.. not so much.

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September 11, 2013, 01:45:57 PM
 #6898

For comparison...

ASICMiner's stopped mining. No blocks for 15 hours now, no explanation.

Reaction on AM thread: a few short, fairly calm posts wondering what's happening & some good-natured jokes about Friedcat selling all the blades.

Can you imagine how this thread would have reacted? Bitcointalk would grind to a halt from so much troll FUD, sheep panic & animated GIFs of ponies throwing themselves out of windows.

When Labcoin has over a year of delivering results, then people will react differently when something happens.

Hell, we can't even get LC to show us that they are mining in the first place!

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September 11, 2013, 01:50:07 PM
 #6899

Maybe the reason they do solo mining is because they don't have the 2Th/s yet. I am a shareholder and really want things go well

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September 11, 2013, 01:52:49 PM
 #6900

Maybe the reason they do solo mining is because they don't have the 2Th/s yet. I am a shareholder and really want things go well
That makes zero sense. Less TH/s there for solo mine?
And being shareholder.. Aren't we all ?


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