YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[bitcoindaddy]

I wonder if it would be considered legal (however unethical) to get the miner, use it for mining 7 days, then asking a refund (continuing to mine until it arrives), then send it back.
I'm not suggesting to do such a thing, just wondering.

Except the BFL would have had your money for over a year while you wait for the product. In reality, BFL would be the one that comes out ahead.

[mueslo]

This was my e-mail to fraud@paypal.com :

...

Huh. When I write to fraud@paypal.com, I get the following automatic response:

************************************************************************
Please do not reply to this e-mail. Mail sent to this address will not
be answered.

************************************************************************

PayPal appreciates you bringing any suspicious activity to our
attention.

Unfortunately, we are unable to properly respond to any emails that are
sent to this address. Please follow the instructions below in order to
report any suspicious activity involving PayPal or its customers.

1.  Go to https://www.paypal.com

2.  Click the 'Security Center' link at the bottom of the page

3.  Click 'Report a Problem'

4.  Select the proper Topic and Subtopic related to your issue

5.  Complete appropriate webform and click 'Submit'

If you have received a suspicious email, we are requesting that you
forward a copy of the email to us at spoof@paypal.com.

Rest assured, PayPal will promptly investigate the activity you have
reported. We thank you for your concern and assistance in making PayPal
the most trusted online Payment service on the internet.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

PayPal and its representatives will NEVER ask you to reveal your
password. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to this policy. If anyone claiming to
work for PayPal asks for your password under any circumstances, by email
or by phone, please refuse and immediately contact us via webform at https://www.paypal.com/wf/f=sa_pass.

Sincerely,

PayPal, Inc.


This email is sent to you by the contracting entity to your User
Agreement, either PayPal Inc or PayPal (Europe) Limited. PayPal(Europe)
Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority
in the UK as an electronic money institution.

**********************************************

I had already tried it via that form, and my refund request was denied by PayPal due to being over the 45 day limit.

[avabit]

Try just contacting them through the webform, if enough people complain, paypal will take notice

[vcsmith]

I think I got the same (or a similar response), but the Customer Solutions Supervisor referenced my e-mail to fraud when he called me. The next step would be to call PayPal's Customer Service and bend their ear. Personally I think the phone calls got me farther than the e-mails did.

Point out this (from their site):

Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?

A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public.

A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item.

PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller:

    Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.
    Clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale.
    Provides proof, if needed, that they can successfully deliver the product (supplier information, purchase invoices, shipping information, or delivery confirmation).

Most importantly, don't take "no" for an answer. This is your money.

[Bitcoinorama]

I think I got the same (or a similar response), but the Customer Solutions Supervisor referenced my e-mail to fraud when he called me. The next step would be to call PayPal's Customer Service and bend their ear. Personally I think the phone calls got me farther than the e-mails did.

Point out this (from their site):

Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?

A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public.

A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item.

PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller:

    Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.
    Clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale.
    Provides proof, if needed, that they can successfully deliver the product (supplier information, purchase invoices, shipping information, or delivery confirmation).

Most importantly, don't take "no" for an answer. This is your money.

Paypal are generally useless, they will take what ever is the easiest way out for them, and outside of 45 days it is not there problem.

Read back at what I wrote in this thread, otherwise it is pointless me writing it.

If you paid by ccard, contact your issuing bank, they have way more weight than a payment processor especially if they are bound by consumer protection laws. Again, and for the last time, it's what you pay their usurious interest fees for!

[PuertoLibre]

 Did you tell Paypal that alot of Paypal buyers want refund from BFL?


ps: shipping thing get nowhere and its getting worse day by day.

It's a test to see if hapless customers ever complain.

It appears that you can keep someone waiting for 14 months with very little in the way of expectations in them getting their money or their product. It is an amazing social experiment.

[PuertoLibre]

This thread should be stickied.  

Yes, right next to the one for bASIC.

I sense, this is going down that road in a hurry.

Everyone, everyone, everything is alright. DON'T PANIC.

<Quietly makes way to the refund window while everyone is distracted.>

You know thats what shills are thinking when they post! haha

[PuertoLibre]

FWIW, there was one thing in this ordeal that really rubbed me the wrong way...

When Bruce from BFL called, he made the "under review" status sound like a punishment for my complaining to PayPal. He seemed surprised that I didn't care about being taken out of the queue. I think that was the only card they had.

Again, don't take this lying down. If you want your money back, take it.

[PuertoLibre]

Please share your emails + language in a public gist.

This was my e-mail to fraud@paypal.com :

Hi,

I used PayPal to place a pre-order with Butterfly Labs on xx-xx-xx for $xxx.xx.
   
This order has still not been filled.  

I politely requested a refund on xx-xx-xx and was declined on xx-xx-xx.

Today I filed Dispute #PP-xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx.  This dispute was closed for being outside the 45-day window.  

The seller has violated your terms of service which clearly state that the seller "Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase".

The seller is continuing to accept pre-orders for a product that they can not ship within any reasonable amount of time. In fact, they do not even pretend to be honoring your 20-day limit.

I have been a PayPal customer for x years.  While I realize that this payment is beyond the 45-day limit, I believe PayPal should honor my request for a refund as the seller is still using PayPal to receive pre-order payments in a manner that clearly violates your terms of service.  

Many people may be harmed financially by this seller if PayPal doesn't step in.

Regards,

Me

Wow, that is one very well crafted email. Re-posted in case anyone needs a template.

[PuertoLibre]

Get your money from BFL before they declare bankruptcy.

You mean like the City of Detroit just recently did to escape their obligations?

Yikes, lets not give them any ideas.

[vcsmith]

Wow, that is one very well crafted email. Re-posted in case anyone needs a template.

Thanks. BTW, I forgot to mention that I put "Butterfly Labs" as the subject of every e-mail to PayPal.  I also repeatedly mentioned their name during each phone call, and brought up the fact that they are violating PayPal's ToS.  Maybe something will sink in if others do the same.

One request:

If anyone else gets one of those "your order is under review and being taken out of the queue" calls from BFL, please post about it. That just seemed desperate and creepy to me.

[PuertoLibre]

I can't help but think that the people who ordered there are somewhat deserving of getting scammed, however I've personally been blinded by greed in the past and blaming the victim (BFL customers) is like blaming an old lady for falling for a 419. Oh wait wasn't that the reason why the BFL head fraudster (josh or something?) was indicted for (peddling a lotto service to old ladies and never ever performing the paid for service)?
Sounds familiar?
I can only say it again: BFL is a scam and even if it is not (which I think is very unlikely) it's a company undeserving of your money and the only reason they are still around is because in Bitcoinland the tolerance for bullshit is unhealthily high.

Old ladies are... old.
Most people here have no such excuse.
Every one of them is to blame for the future scams the scammers will do, since they de facto encouraged him, and financed him, willingly.

?Lucky? for us, BFL is using the principles of Evolution.

Taking out the weak gullible out of the equation, financially.

Even if they get their miner in lets say..."two weeks" (14 months or more)

Then, they really won't be using it as anything more than a paper weight. The expiration (@ the current price points) on these Gen 1 units are almost over. September is the last month worth waiting on these to ship. D-Day has come.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Wow, that is one very well crafted email. Re-posted in case anyone needs a template.

Thanks. BTW, I forgot to mention that I put "Butterfly Labs" as the subject of every e-mail to PayPal.  I also repeatedly mentioned their name during each phone call, and brought up the fact that they are violating PayPal's ToS.  Maybe something will sink in if others do the same.

One request:

If anyone else gets one of those "your order is under review and being taken out of the queue" calls from BFL, please post about it. That just seemed desperate and creepy to me.

Not as desperate and creepy as this: http://mineforeman.com/2013/04/05/butterfly-labs-increases-prices-and-decreases-hash-rates-on-the-asic-bitcoin-mining-devices/

After the bad news last week that Butterfly Labs missed their power estimates for the new range of BitForce SC ASIC bitcoin miners and the under performing glance Luke-Jr showed us of an actual device hashing Butterfly Labs has shocked the bitcoin mining industry by altering their entire product line.

The BitForce Jalapeno that was to do 4.5 GH/s and  cost $149.00 will be replaced with a 5 GH/S Bitcoin Miner for $274.00.

The BitForce Little Single 30 GH/s Miner  for $649.00 will now be a 25 GH/S Bitcoin Miner costing $1,249.00.

Finally The BitForce Single 60 GH/s for $1,299.00 is replaced with 50 GH/S  Bitcoin Miner for $2,499.00.

Unfortunately the BitForce Mini Rig for 1,500 costing $29,899.00 is now marked as out of stock and has no replacement at present.

I have not been able to find out what will happen to people with ‘pre-orders’ as of yet (some going back a full eight months) but when I find out, I will update this article.

D-Day V-Day is September 15, 2013 when Sonny's Vleisides' three year probation for fleecing the elderly to the tune of tens of millions of dollars in his lottery scam is set to expire.

[dudeofthestick]

Obviously the pressure on PayPal works.

Since the payment was charged by Paypal to my VISA, I was wondering if asking for a refund to VISA would put more pressure on them to have a deep look at BFL.

Anybody has a similar experience?

[millsdmb]

Obviously the pressure on PayPal works.

Since the payment was charged by Paypal to my VISA, I was wondering if asking for a refund to VISA would put more pressure on them to have a deep look at BFL.

Anybody has a similar experience?

If people are able to get refunds from PayPal, do we want them to take a "deep look" at BFL? I haven't placed an order with them yet, but realize that the alternatives that ship which I am currently mining with (blockerupters) are not going to hit ROI.

If people can get refunds AND BFL doesn't go bankrupt AND they are able to really ship a product in two weeks, would that not be the best scenario? I need something to replace these erupters with...

[Xian01]

I need something to replace these erupters with...

 Why replace the Erupters at all ? What is the harm in keeping them mining considering their negligible electrical use ?

[millsdmb]

I need something to replace these erupters with...

 Why replace the Erupters at all ? What is the harm in keeping them mining considering their negligible electrical use ?

Fair enough -- I need something to supplement the block erupters with =D

[Lohoris]

I wonder if it would be considered legal (however unethical) to get the miner, use it for mining 7 days, then asking a refund (continuing to mine until it arrives), then send it back.
I'm not suggesting to do such a thing, just wondering.

Except the BFL would have had your money for over a year while you wait for the product. In reality, BFL would be the one that comes out ahead.

Sure.
I wasn't talking about BFL, I was wondering if "in general" this exploit might work.
Assuming "they" actually do deliver the product you ordered.
Of course BFL doesn't deliver so this doesn't apply.

[millsdmb]

I wonder if it would be considered legal (however unethical) to get the miner, use it for mining 7 days, then asking a refund (continuing to mine until it arrives), then send it back.
I'm not suggesting to do such a thing, just wondering.

Except the BFL would have had your money for over a year while you wait for the product. In reality, BFL would be the one that comes out ahead.

Sure.
I wasn't talking about BFL, I was wondering if "in general" this exploit might work.
Assuming "they" actually do deliver the product you ordered.
Of course BFL doesn't deliver so this doesn't apply.

You could mine while you wait for it to resell on eBay. People paying stupid prices there.

[ryanb]

i also opened a paypal dispute against BFL i have 3 orders at first i requested a refund they said no refund is allowed and all orders will be shipped before sept 30 and my order was placed 40 days ago.

So once i opened the dispute with paypal within moments they marked my orders as complete and refunded.

Then 2 days later BFL replied to the dispute request stating all sales are final and bla bla bla so i escalated the claim that they did not deliver. I believe they have 20 days to resolve the issue or paypal will refund my money.

I am also considering to file a claim with the FTC office if lot of people will file a claim they might get the message to stop take preorders and deliver all their pre orders that they took.