YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

[tacoman71]

I might do this and order some ASIC miners from xcrowd

[mgio]

Of course you can get refund if they haven't shipped to you yet!

They are in violation of FTC rules (if you are in the US) because they did not specifying a shipping date and have not shipped in a timely manner.

If BFL refuses to refund your purchase, contact the FTC and your state attorney general.
Then contact PayPal.
Finally, contact your credit card company (if you paid by credit card and I hope you did).

They have to give you your money back, at least until they apply for bankruptcy protection.
It might take a while, but you'll get your money back. The penalties for them not refunding your pre-orders are harsher than they probably imagine.

Good luck.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Ok, more news from PayPal guys in Europe.

I talked to an account manager this morning and he told me that the problem of the 45 days has to do with the insurance of every single transaction people do. After the 45 days period, he told me to directly call the Police. Paypal encourages users to call the Police after this 45 days period.

I asked him if it would work (heck, I'm in Madrid-Spain) and told me yes, it works between Europe and USA.

It seems that the BFL account in PayPal is under the name of Mr. Vlissides, and has something like a 'special' account manager. They will report my case directly to BFL account manager this afternoon.

But the guy here was clear: call the Police NOW.

So, if in 48 hours I don't get a valid response from BFL or PayPal, I will report it to the Grupo de Delitos Telemáticos: https://www.gdt.guardiacivil.es/webgdt/home_alerta.php

And I think that everybody should do the same.

Would you be so kind as to verify whether the name Mr. Vlissides is actually used on the PayPal account or you simply made a spelling error, meaning to pen Vleisides.

Thanks, bud.

[dudeofthestick]

Would you be so kind as to verify whether the name Mr. Vlissides is actually used on the PayPal account or you simply made a spelling error, meaning to pen Vleisides.

Thanks, bud.

The Spanish Account manager of PayPal literally said "Vlissides", or that's how it sounded to me. Probably it's a pronunciation error of two spaniards and a non-Spanish last name in the conversation...

Hope it helps...

[ryanb]

As i mentioned few days ago that i opened a dispute against BFL and i have escalated the claim, today BFL replied that they shipped my stuff without providing tracking number, they are playing the game to have people cancel the claim and i know they did not ship anything because on day 1 when i opened the claim they marked my invoices on the account dashboard as refunded and complete but i have not received any refund or any asic from there.


Keep in mind guys you can only open a claim once so don't let them trick you to close the claim.

[dhenson]

I received a refund through Paypal after the 45 days, just by being persistent.  However, they wouldn't refund the extra shipping charge which was a different transaction (remember at the end of April when BFL made everyone pay extra for express shipping?)

I then filed a charge back with my credit card for the extra shipping transaction, as of today, it looks like that will be refunded as well.

Long story short, don't lose money.  If you paid with Paypal via your Credit Card then you can get your money back even if at first they deny your request.

[Stack]

I received a refund through Paypal after the 45 days, just by being persistent.  However, they wouldn't refund the extra shipping charge which was a different transaction (remember at the end of April when BFL made everyone pay extra for express shipping?)

I then filed a charge back with my credit card for the extra shipping transaction, as of today, it looks like that will be refunded as well.

Long story short, don't lose money.  If you paid with Paypal via your Credit Card then you can get your money back even if at first they deny your request.

Yeah mine was auto-closed, but I am continually trying to elevate it with PayPal through every channel they have available. Each time pointing out that they will find many claims against this company and that we were tricked into not claiming sooner.

So lets keep encouraging everyone to open claims and complaints and keep racking up those statistics - so that we can all win. Vires In Numbers!

[Bitcoinorama]

I received a refund through Paypal after the 45 days, just by being persistent.  However, they wouldn't refund the extra shipping charge which was a different transaction (remember at the end of April when BFL made everyone pay extra for express shipping?)

I then filed a charge back with my credit card for the extra shipping transaction, as of today, it looks like that will be refunded as well.

Long story short, don't lose money.  If you paid with Paypal via your Credit Card then you can get your money back even if at first they deny your request.

Good, Dhenson, I'm glad someone's been listening.

[Threader]

They keep changing their FAQ for Refunds: BF Labs inc. are in damage control.

www.butterflyabs.com FAQ internet site snapshots  researched on Internet Archives WayBackMachine


http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.butterflylabs.com/


Jan 23 2013 FAQ

Can I get a refund on my pre-order?

Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late November or early December 2012. Your pre-order with payment confirms your place in line for delivery once we begin shipping. Payments made for pre-orders of ASIC based products now under development should be considered non-refundable until products begin shipping or 1 January 2013, whichever is earlier.


Feb 26, 2013

FAQ:Refund Request

Question:
I submitted a refund request to office@butterflylabs.com but haven't heard back yet. When can I expect confirmation?

Answer:
3-4 workdays to start the refund process

7 workdays for wire
2-3 workdays for Paypal or bitcoin


April 30, 2013 - July 25, 2013

Can I get a refund on my pre-order?

All sales are final unless we fail to perform. That means if we do not ship any machine at all. If you would really like a refund anyway, just ask and we'll probably be able to take care of you. Nonetheless, we reserve the right to handle it on a case by case basis.

Refunds usually take 3-4 days to begin the process. If you paid with a bank wire, it will take an additional week or so for the funds to appear in your account. PayPal and Bitcoin refunds can take 2-3 days for the funds to appear in your account.

Bitcoin payments and refunds are processed through a third-party vendor. The amount refunded is based on the US Dollar equivalent at the time the transaction is initiated.


Presently Aug 7, 2013

Can I get a refund on my order?
A

While we reserve the right to handle refund requests on a case by case basis, pre-ordered products are non-refundable as is clearly stated at the time of purchase.  The reason for this is that pre-order funds are used in the build process which makes it impractical to reverse.  It's also been observed that some small number of customers have placed orders as part of a bitcoin price hedging strategy which involves multiple requests to cancel and then re-enstate their orders as market conditions change.  This has created an enormous customer service burden which is resolved by enforcing the all sales final policy.

Some customers have asked why we've given order cancelation refunds to others, but they can't get one.  The answer is that we had opted to process order cancelation requests during our long product development phase as a courtesy to those who endured the stress of the unknown.  However, once full production began, a notice was sent out advising that orders would be shipped as produced according to the order queue and that if anyone was unwilling to endure the wait, they had a final opportunity to cancel.  Customers were required to positively confirm their desire to remain in the order queue and accept the order terms.

Pre-Order terms for new orders were updated on the website on April 1, 2013.  The terms state, "I accept the terms of the sale and understand that all sales are final and there is a backlog of orders and production & delivery of my order may take 2 months or longer."

As a Wyoming Corporation, we operate under the US Federal Trade Commission's business guide for mail or telephone ordered merchandise.  The relevant guideline suggests that if no delivery terms are stated or agreed to, then 30 days should be assumed.  In our case, we've gone to great length to ensure there is no ambiguity.  Customers are/were notified of the back order situation, the inability to cancel their order and the multi month wait to be expected.

Here is the relevant FTC guideline text:

"when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days."

[Bitcoinorama]

They keep changing their FAQ for Refunds: BF Labs inc. are in damage control.

www.butterflyabs.com FAQ internet site snapshots  researched on Internet Archives WayBackMachine


http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.butterflylabs.com/


Jan 23 2013 FAQ

Can I get a refund on my pre-order?

Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late November or early December 2012. Your pre-order with payment confirms your place in line for delivery once we begin shipping. Payments made for pre-orders of ASIC based products now under development should be considered non-refundable until products begin shipping or 1 January 2013, whichever is earlier.


Feb 26, 2013

FAQ:Refund Request

Question:
I submitted a refund request to office@butterflylabs.com but haven't heard back yet. When can I expect confirmation?

Answer:
3-4 workdays to start the refund process

7 workdays for wire
2-3 workdays for Paypal or bitcoin


April 30, 2013 - July 25, 2013

Can I get a refund on my pre-order?

All sales are final unless we fail to perform. That means if we do not ship any machine at all. If you would really like a refund anyway, just ask and we'll probably be able to take care of you. Nonetheless, we reserve the right to handle it on a case by case basis.

Refunds usually take 3-4 days to begin the process. If you paid with a bank wire, it will take an additional week or so for the funds to appear in your account. PayPal and Bitcoin refunds can take 2-3 days for the funds to appear in your account.

Bitcoin payments and refunds are processed through a third-party vendor. The amount refunded is based on the US Dollar equivalent at the time the transaction is initiated.


Presently Aug 7, 2013

Can I get a refund on my order?
A

While we reserve the right to handle refund requests on a case by case basis, pre-ordered products are non-refundable as is clearly stated at the time of purchase.  The reason for this is that pre-order funds are used in the build process which makes it impractical to reverse.  It's also been observed that some small number of customers have placed orders as part of a bitcoin price hedging strategy which involves multiple requests to cancel and then re-enstate their orders as market conditions change.  This has created an enormous customer service burden which is resolved by enforcing the all sales final policy.

Some customers have asked why we've given order cancelation refunds to others, but they can't get one.  The answer is that we had opted to process order cancelation requests during our long product development phase as a courtesy to those who endured the stress of the unknown.  However, once full production began, a notice was sent out advising that orders would be shipped as produced according to the order queue and that if anyone was unwilling to endure the wait, they had a final opportunity to cancel.  Customers were required to positively confirm their desire to remain in the order queue and accept the order terms.

Pre-Order terms for new orders were updated on the website on April 1, 2013.  The terms state, "I accept the terms of the sale and understand that all sales are final and there is a backlog of orders and production & delivery of my order may take 2 months or longer."

As a Wyoming Corporation, we operate under the US Federal Trade Commission's business guide for mail or telephone ordered merchandise.  The relevant guideline suggests that if no delivery terms are stated or agreed to, then 30 days should be assumed.  In our case, we've gone to great length to ensure there is no ambiguity.  Customers are/were notified of the back order situation, the inability to cancel their order and the multi month wait to be expected.

Here is the relevant FTC guideline text:

"when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days."

That's a pretty logical cover your ass statement from BFL clearly defining where they stand as a business that wishes to prospect itself. I cannot see there is wrongdoing at there end from that statement alone. That said it does not effect consumer protection on credit cards which will cover you, however I fully agree with Butterfly Labs in that you should not be 'hedging' bets against ASIC firms allowing them to use those funds for R&D in the belief your intentions are sincere and then dropping ASIC vendors like hot stones at your whim. That's not only irresponsible for customers to do that, that is fraudulent.

[leepsteer00]

Great job.

[PuertoLibre]

Presently Aug 7, 2013

Can I get a refund on my order?
A

While we reserve the right to handle refund requests on a case by case basis, pre-ordered products are non-refundable as is clearly stated at the time of purchase.  The reason for this is that pre-order funds are used in the build process which makes it impractical to reverse.  It's also been observed that some small number of customers have placed orders as part of a bitcoin price hedging strategy which involves multiple requests to cancel and then re-enstate their orders as market conditions change.  This has created an enormous customer service burden which is resolved by enforcing the all sales final policy.

Translated from Bullshit to English:

What ("I think") they really mean is that people were using/abusing Paypal in 45 day intervals. As well as reserving the right to drop BFL like a hot potato as soon as they were not selling the hottest promise in vaporware delivery.

My interpretation:

A) Customers were constantly (due to massive BFL delays) cancelling their orders and re-opening them at a later date. Probably made BFL have alot of problems with their bank and Paypal for moving such huge volumes of money back and forth. (IMO)

B) Customers would move their money from BFL to other vendors (Avalon/bASIC) like herds of sheeple as soon as the next hot thing in ASIC technology came out. Thats what they probably meant as hedging. Which probably tells you that it was a significant problem.

Some customers have asked why we've given order cancelation refunds to others, but they can't get one.  The answer is that we had opted to process order cancelation requests during our long product development phase as a courtesy to those who endured the stress of the unknown.  However, once full production began, a notice was sent out advising that orders would be shipped as produced according to the order queue and that if anyone was unwilling to endure the wait, they had a final opportunity to cancel.  Customers were required to positively confirm their desire to remain in the order queue and accept the order terms.

I guess you all should have asked what the terms were before you agreed to them....

Suckers.

Pre-Order terms for new orders were updated on the website on April 1, 2013.  The terms state, "I accept the terms of the sale and understand that all sales are final and there is a backlog of orders and production & delivery of my order may take 2 months or longer."

As a Wyoming Corporation, we operate under the US Federal Trade Commission's business guide for mail or telephone ordered merchandise.  The relevant guideline suggests that if no delivery terms are stated or agreed to, then 30 days should be assumed.  In our case, we've gone to great length to ensure there is no ambiguity.  Customers are/were notified of the back order situation, the inability to cancel their order and the multi month wait to be expected.

Here is the relevant FTC guideline text:

"when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days."

In other words:

We think we can do what no one else in the industry has ever done before. Paper our walls with printed toilet paper full of "Get out of Jail" escape clauses and hope this protects our ass from lengthy non-deliveries.

Bam, problem solved. (as long as you think we actually have the upper hand?)

[Threader]

I'm hedging squat with BFL or any other Pre-order ASIC business. I put my faith and Trust in BFL and placed several orders in Early to Mid 2013 based on Josh Updates

...two more weeks full production...300 units day...400 units a day...ship all exiting pre-orders by end of Aug 2013....  

ALL A PACK OF LIES

I never agreed to wait 7 months or more and at the time of my going into a contractual sale of a pre-sale,  refunds were available as stated on the FAQ at the time.

I want all my money back and when I do, I'm going to lick my wounds and get out of this ASIC nonsense. I'm at the point of just feeling I'm gaining by not losing my very own money.

[PuertoLibre]

I'm hedging squat with BFL or any other Pre-order ASIC business. I put my faith and Trust in BFL and placed several orders in Early to Mid 2013 based on Josh Updates

...two more weeks full production...300 units day...400 units a day...ship all exiting pre-orders by end of Aug 2013....  

ALL A PACK OF LIES

I never agreed to wait 7 months or more and at the time of my going into a contractual sale of a pre-sale,  refunds were available as stated on the FAQ at the time.

I want all my money back and when I do, I'm going to lick my wounds and get out of this ASIC nonsense. I'm at the point of just feeling I'm gaining by not losing my very own money.

Does your experience reflect:



Or



Personally I am:



With a mix of:

[Phinnaeus Gage]

They keep changing their FAQ for Refunds: BF Labs inc. are in damage control.

www.butterflyabs.com FAQ internet site snapshots  researched on Internet Archives WayBackMachine


http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.butterflylabs.com/


Jan 23 2013 FAQ

Can I get a refund on my pre-order?

Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late November or early December 2012. Your pre-order with payment confirms your place in line for delivery once we begin shipping. Payments made for pre-orders of ASIC based products now under development should be considered non-refundable until products begin shipping or 1 January 2013, whichever is earlier.


Feb 26, 2013

FAQ:Refund Request

Question:
I submitted a refund request to office@butterflylabs.com but haven't heard back yet. When can I expect confirmation?

Answer:
3-4 workdays to start the refund process

7 workdays for wire
2-3 workdays for Paypal or bitcoin


April 30, 2013 - July 25, 2013

Can I get a refund on my pre-order?

All sales are final unless we fail to perform. That means if we do not ship any machine at all. If you would really like a refund anyway, just ask and we'll probably be able to take care of you. Nonetheless, we reserve the right to handle it on a case by case basis.

Refunds usually take 3-4 days to begin the process. If you paid with a bank wire, it will take an additional week or so for the funds to appear in your account. PayPal and Bitcoin refunds can take 2-3 days for the funds to appear in your account.

Bitcoin payments and refunds are processed through a third-party vendor. The amount refunded is based on the US Dollar equivalent at the time the transaction is initiated.


Presently Aug 7, 2013

Can I get a refund on my order?
A

While we reserve the right to handle refund requests on a case by case basis, pre-ordered products are non-refundable as is clearly stated at the time of purchase.  The reason for this is that pre-order funds are used in the build process which makes it impractical to reverse.  It's also been observed that some small number of customers have placed orders as part of a bitcoin price hedging strategy which involves multiple requests to cancel and then re-enstate their orders as market conditions change.  This has created an enormous customer service burden which is resolved by enforcing the all sales final policy.

Some customers have asked why we've given order cancelation refunds to others, but they can't get one.  The answer is that we had opted to process order cancelation requests during our long product development phase as a courtesy to those who endured the stress of the unknown.  However, once full production began, a notice was sent out advising that orders would be shipped as produced according to the order queue and that if anyone was unwilling to endure the wait, they had a final opportunity to cancel.  Customers were required to positively confirm their desire to remain in the order queue and accept the order terms.

Pre-Order terms for new orders were updated on the website on April 1, 2013.  The terms state, "I accept the terms of the sale and understand that all sales are final and there is a backlog of orders and production & delivery of my order may take 2 months or longer."

As a Wyoming Corporation, we operate under the US Federal Trade Commission's business guide for mail or telephone ordered merchandise.  The relevant guideline suggests that if no delivery terms are stated or agreed to, then 30 days should be assumed.  In our case, we've gone to great length to ensure there is no ambiguity.  Customers are/were notified of the back order situation, the inability to cancel their order and the multi month wait to be expected.

Here is the relevant FTC guideline text:

"when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days."

ERGO, MOTHER FUCKIN' LIARS!

[Threader]

Good Catch...searching for the post by Big_Fracking_Liar_Josh where he said that they were not using the Pre-order funds until they where in the actual build process. BTW asshole Josh you are not in the build process of my order as of now and you can't even tell me when that will happen so stuff your BS up yours!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Good Catch...searching for the post by Big_Fracking_Liar_Josh where he said that they were not using the Pre-order funds until they where in the actual build process. BTW asshole Josh you are not in the build process of my order as of now and you can't even tell me when that will happen so stuff your BS up yours!

In the very next sentence they explain why this is necessary:

It's also been observed that some small number of customers have placed orders as part of a bitcoin price hedging strategy which involves multiple requests to cancel and then re-enstate their orders as market conditions change.

Let's see how this works out in theory and how the small number of customers have taken advantage of the exchange rate.

Months ago, a customer buys a unit for $2,000 and pays with X bitcoins. Customer later request a refund, it's granted, and they receive $2,000 in Y bitcoins (doesn't matter if the exchange rate went up or down). Then, the customer reorders, paying $2,000 once again with Z bitcoins, but is now in a much later queue position. As any idiot can see, the customer comes out like a bandit, and BFL was wise to stop this practice before it got outta hand.

I aspire to be as SMART as BFL some day.

[PuertoLibre]

Good Catch...searching for the post by Big_Fracking_Liar_Josh where he said that they were not using the Pre-order funds until they where in the actual build process. BTW asshole Josh you are not in the build process of my order as of now and you can't even tell me when that will happen so stuff your BS up yours!

In the very next sentence they explain why this is necessary:

It's also been observed that some small number of customers have placed orders as part of a bitcoin price hedging strategy which involves multiple requests to cancel and then re-enstate their orders as market conditions change.

Let's see how this works out in theory and how the small number of customers have taken advantage of the exchange rate.

Months ago, a customer buys a unit for $2,000 and pays with X bitcoins. Customer later request a refund, it's granted, and they receive $2,000 in Y bitcoins (doesn't matter if the exchange rate went up or down). Then, the customer reorders, paying $2,000 once again with Z bitcoins, but is now in a much later queue position. As any idiot can see, the customer comes out like a bandit, and BFL was wise to stop this practice before it got outta hand.

I aspire to be as SMART as BFL some day.

That explanation makes absolutely zero sense. If people did that, they would lose money like crazy.

Therefore, it's bullshit.

[Trongersoll]

enough of the stupid pictures already. can we keep this thread informational and not "i told you so" ego boosting?

[Threader]

Josh About Paypal refunds

03-04-2013, 11:34 PM BFL_Josh " In a nutshell we do not have any way to charge a credit card (either preauth or outright charge) and we can not do it through Paypal as so many refunds would cause them to shut down our account.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1219-march-4th-update-discussion-3.html