CoinTerra announces its first ASIC - Hash-Rate greater than 500 GH/s

[Anenome5]

So basically the total limit of BTC that can be mined in 24 hours is enough to cover the power costs of 328.28PH/s miners if electricity costs 0.15USD per kWh.

Hopefully that is correct.

So the hardware is free, yes? No one has to factor in ROI? Okay.

[GigaWave]

Any word if a 500Gh/s (single chip) product will be offered directly from CT?

[DeathAndTaxes]

I think that your point about CPU and FPGA actually folds on itself to some degree, because when CPUs and GPUs and FPGAs come offline, it's like a tree falling in the woods that no one hears. By the time they're so unprofitable that they stop getting used, they are already too small a portion of the network to be missed. I think that Avalon is relatively near succumbing to this fate based on what I know about preorders of 28nm chips.

Avalon and ASICMiner will go first but I think the network will grow slower that some project.  Here is a discussion based on probable preorders and timelines with a couple different viewpoints.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278384.0

I wouldn't say those techs aren't missed.  GPU was ~50 TH/s.  They are effectively obsolete now @ 500 TH/s it was a 10% drag on the network growth rate.  Avalon & AsicMiner won't go "obsolete" (@ current exchange rate & $0.10 per kWh) until 17.9 PH/s.  Even with no new orders that would mean >1.5 PH/s of capacity (plus ASICMiner retails sales which are hard to pin down).  That is around the same share of the network.

[geofflosophy]

I think that your point about CPU and FPGA actually folds on itself to some degree, because when CPUs and GPUs and FPGAs come offline, it's like a tree falling in the woods that no one hears. By the time they're so unprofitable that they stop getting used, they are already too small a portion of the network to be missed. I think that Avalon is relatively near succumbing to this fate based on what I know about preorders of 28nm chips.

Avalon and ASICMiner will go first but I think the network will grow slower that some project.  Here is a discussion based on probable preorders and timelines with a couple different viewpoints.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278384.0

I wouldn't say those techs aren't missed.  GPU was ~50 TH/s.  They are effectively obsolete now @ 500 TH/s it was a 10% drag on the network growth rate.  Avalon & AsicMiner won't go "obsolete" (@ current exchange rate & $0.10 per kWh) until 17.9 PH/s.  Even with no new orders that would mean >1.5 PH/s of capacity (plus ASICMiner retails sales which are hard to pin down).  That is around the same share of the network.

I don't think the growth rate will slow down substantially until we start approaching theoretical maximums and Moore's Law; don't know what that limit is but I don't think we're anywhere near that yet. KnC has said they are launching a "Gen 2" device in March, given that their Gen 1 devices are 400 GH who knows how big and cheap those Gen 2 devices will be. Honestly it sucks to be in the mining hardware buying game, I bought CloudHashing contracts instead because of the revenue reinvestment, which based on my own due dilligence will be much more profitable over a 12 month time frame than any miner purchase because of how they are buying and reinvesting at scale.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I bought CloudHashing contracts instead because of the revenue reinvestment, which based on my own due dilligence will be much more profitable over a 12 month time frame than any miner purchase because of how they are buying and reinvesting at scale.

Revenue reinvestment simply means putting aside some of gross revenue to pay for mining hardware.  Any miner can do that with any rig.  Also you almost certainly have no chance of positive return given CloudHashing price is >$50 per GH/s and hasn't started mining yet. 

[geofflosophy]

I bought CloudHashing contracts instead because of the revenue reinvestment, which based on my own due dilligence will be much more profitable over a 12 month time frame than any miner purchase because of how they are buying and reinvesting at scale.

Revenue reinvestment simply means putting aside some of gross revenue to pay for mining hardware.  Any miner can do that with any rig.  Also you almost certainly have no chance of positive return given CloudHashing price is >$50 per GH/s and hasn't started mining yet. 

We're derailing this thread, but you're wrong. The mining power on those contracts will grow very quickly, that $50 per GH number is extremely misleading because of how it will grow month after month; I have had private correspondence with them and am not quite sure how much of what they told me should be disclosed, but suffice it to say that they will be adding a substantial amount of power every month that will translate directly into increases in the hashing power of each individual contract.

Any miner can put money aside with any rig, but you need to be a very large scale miner to buy new hardware every month with that money. And you need priority queuing and bulk rate prices to compete with the scaling of CloudHashing.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Ok tell yourself that.   

I bought CloudHashing contracts instead because of the revenue reinvestment, which based on my own due dilligence will be much more profitable over a 12 month time frame than any miner purchase because of how they are buying and reinvesting at scale.

Revenue reinvestment simply means putting aside some of gross revenue to pay for mining hardware.  Any miner can do that with any rig.  Also you almost certainly have no chance of positive return given CloudHashing price is >$50 per GH/s and hasn't started mining yet. 

We're derailing this thread, but you're wrong. The mining power on those contracts will grow very quickly, that $50 per GH number is extremely misleading because of how it will grow month after month; I have had private correspondence with them and am not quite sure how much of what they told me should be disclosed, but suffice it to say that they will be adding a substantial amount of power every month that will translate directly into increases in the hashing power of each individual contract.

Any miner can put money aside with any rig, but you need to be a very large scale miner to buy new hardware every month with that money. And you need priority queuing and bulk rate prices to compete with the scaling of CloudHashing.

Ok tell yourself that.  Their projection is based on 2TH to 3TH in Sept 2014.  We will likely see 5 TH/ by January.   I mean just about any rig is massively profitable if difficulty scales linarly between now and Sept 2014 with a max of 2 TH/s.   

For example Cointerra rig:
http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/92097362ab  Wow 112% return.
 
The host can't reinvest more revenue then it makes and with $50 per GH/s you are dead before you start.  The only way they could make a compelling projection is with totally impossible scenario of only 2 TH/s in Sept 2014.  If that happens well it is pretty much impossible not to make a fortune no matter what rig you pick.

[geofflosophy]

Ok tell yourself that.   

I bought CloudHashing contracts instead because of the revenue reinvestment, which based on my own due dilligence will be much more profitable over a 12 month time frame than any miner purchase because of how they are buying and reinvesting at scale.

Revenue reinvestment simply means putting aside some of gross revenue to pay for mining hardware.  Any miner can do that with any rig.  Also you almost certainly have no chance of positive return given CloudHashing price is >$50 per GH/s and hasn't started mining yet. 

We're derailing this thread, but you're wrong. The mining power on those contracts will grow very quickly, that $50 per GH number is extremely misleading because of how it will grow month after month; I have had private correspondence with them and am not quite sure how much of what they told me should be disclosed, but suffice it to say that they will be adding a substantial amount of power every month that will translate directly into increases in the hashing power of each individual contract.

Any miner can put money aside with any rig, but you need to be a very large scale miner to buy new hardware every month with that money. And you need priority queuing and bulk rate prices to compete with the scaling of CloudHashing.

Ok tell yourself that.  Their projection is based on 2TH to 3TH in Sept 2014.  We will likely see 5 TH/ by January.   I mean just about any rig is massively profitable if difficulty scales linarly between now and Sept 2014 with a max of 2 TH/s.   

For example Cointerra rig:
http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/92097362ab  Wow 112% return.
 
The host can't reinvest more revenue then it makes and with $50 per GH/s you are dead before you start.  The only way they could make a compelling projection is with totally impossible scenario of only 2 TH/s in Sept 2014.  If that happens well it is pretty much impossible not to make a fortune no matter what rig you pick.

I'm assuming you mean PH, not TH. I think that their posted projection of 25 BTC in the first year for a Platinum contract is high, but I think that 15 is probably low. They are offering 30% revenue reinvestment, so if you take as a floor number a 30% increase in hashing power month to month you're looking at 20, 26, 33.8, 43.9, 57.1... 466 GH/s in September 2014. This assumes no increase in BTC value (and thus the buying power of the BTC for new equipment), no decreases in prices, and no improvements to the tech being bought (Gen 2 KnC anyone?).  The platinum contract is also a 2 year contract, but I am looking at the second year as bonus-round.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Ah man you didn't think that is what 30% revenue reinvestment means do you?  You did read the contract before sending them money.  You have 0% chance of making a positive ROI.

It means they take 30% of your REVENUE and buy hashing power with it.  Your hashing power isn't going to grow 30% a month.  Your $1000 bought you 20 GH/s of hashing power.  They take 10% as a fee, reinvest 30% towards more hardware and payout 60%.

Not sure why you think that means you hashing rate will grow 30% a month.  You got robbed and have no possible chance of a positive ROI% under any realistic scenario.  I know I won't convince you but your account stats in October will.  The good news is you won't have to wait 2 years to know you will lose money it will be obvious very good.  You can't pay 300% markup on hashing power and then somehow magically come out ahead by reinvesting.  They aren't giving you any hashing power for free they are using YOUR gross revenue to buy more.  The only way 30% revenue reinvestment = 30% more hashing power would be if your revenue for the month was 100% of your contract price.

[geofflosophy]

Ah man you didn't think that is what 30% revenue reinvestment means do you?  You did read the contract before sending them money.  You have 0% chance of making a positive ROI.

It means they take 30% of your REVENUE and buy hashing power with it.  Your hashing power isn't going to grow 30% a month.  Your $1000 bought you 20 GH/s of hashing power.  They take 10% as a fee, reinvest 30% towards more hardware and payout 60%.

Not sure why you think that means you hashing rate will grow 30% a month.  You got robbed and have no possible chance of a positive ROI% under any realistic scenario.  I know I won't convince you but your account stats in October will.  The good news is you won't have to wait 2 years to know you will lose money it will be obvious very good.  You can't pay 300% markup on hashing power and then somehow magically come out ahead by reinvesting.  They aren't giving you any hashing power for free they are using YOUR gross revenue to buy more.  The only way 30% revenue reinvestment = 30% more hashing power would be if your revenue for the month was 100% of your contract price.

Okay I'll concede that the previous post was hastily written and wrong. Let's try this instead: Difficulty of 120m when you start mining, 20 GH will return 2 BTC in the first month. 0.3 of that 2 BTC = 0.6 BTC. 110 TH / 20 GH = 5500 platinum contracts ---> 5500 * 0.6 BTC per contract = 3300 BTC ~ $363,000. At retail rates, you're looking at 52 new Jupiters, for a total of 20.7 TH. Divide that among the 5500 platinum contracts and each is getting an extra 3.77 GH, which is a little less than 20%.

But CloudHashing isn't buying at retail, and BTC may be worth more than $110, and KnC is dropping their price in November. Having spoken with CloudHashing directly, I know that 20.7 TH added for month two is lower than planned by a large margin. All this to say that I do in fact expect a 30% increase in hashing power on my contract in month two, and this increase will slow month over month as the difficulty increase outpaces the GH growth, but not by as much of a margin as you're assuming, and if things do start to level off come January/February, difficulty growth could easily stop outpacing contract power growth.

Anyway, I have my bets, you have yours. We'll see how it shakes out. I'd be willing to entertain a modest wager that I make more than 10 BTC in the first year of the platinum contract, maybe 1 BTC; wouldn't want to have more than that locked up in escrow when it can be earning interest in coinenders or just-dice or via trading.

[Gyrsur]

CoinTerra needs my money 4 month before they are able to deliver.

from: priority@cointerra.com
subject: CoinTerra TerraMiner IV Queue Removal Warning

Our records indicate you have not yet paid for your Priority order.  As stated in our ordering policy which we have sent to you, your order is now over seven (7) calendar days without payment and now subject to being removed from its queue order.

To assure we are being completely fair to our customers, we will wait forty-eight (48) hours from the time this email is sent to either verify payment or make other arrangements.  If we have not heard from you, your order will be removed from the queue.

Your order will NOT be cancelled at this time.  If you are removed from the queue, you can still remit payment and your order will be re-inserted at the end of the queue.

If we do not receive your payment, nor do we hear from you, within seven (7) days of your being removed from the queue, your order will be cancelled.

To make other arrangements or if you have any questions, please reply to this email.

Regards,

CoinTerra Order Administration

[Syke]

CoinTerra needs my money 4 month before they are able to deliver.

These hail-mary hardware vendors just aren't interesting to me anymore. They have nothing to show, but ask for everything up front. Now we have Bitfury putting out cutting-edge miners at reasonable prices with minimal lead times. Bitfury has set the bar.

[Gyrsur]

CoinTerra needs my money 4 month before they are able to deliver.

These hail-mary hardware vendors just aren't interesting to me anymore. They have nothing to show, but ask for everything up front. Now we have Bitfury putting out cutting-edge miners at reasonable prices with minimal lead times. Bitfury has set the bar.

absolutely agree!

[crumbs]

CoinTerra needs my money 4 month before they are able to deliver.

These hail-mary hardware vendors just aren't interesting to me anymore. They have nothing to show, but ask for everything up front. Now we have Bitfury putting out cutting-edge miners at reasonable prices with minimal lead times. Bitfury has set the bar.

I like the Bitfury crowd.  The entire feel is different, check out this thread (just the pics will give you an idea, if you don't read Russian).

[Pinwheel]

Bitfury working on downsizing his chip to 28nm and it may be on sale from November.

Interesting that it was his first prototype and it went into production after they tested engineering batch.

If CoinTerra can cut some time and bring chip faster, that will make a lot of sense. Otherwise Cointerra can go down the same road as Avalon and BFL did, once they will see that chips/miners not moving they will start mining themselves.

[testerx]

Cointerra's shipping prices on their website make no goddamn sense.  Why is it $194 to ship one 27 pound box via UPS ground, but then this skyrockets to $577 for two units?  If it's cheaper to ship them separately then just ship them separately you idiots.  Right now you're better off buying the units separately, wtf? 

[ecliptic]

ITT : People who think difficulty will be exponential with no end, and not a sigmoid curve

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com - Seems like any post linking here is full of ignorance.

[Ytterbium]

ITT : People who think difficulty will be exponential with no end, and not a sigmoid curve

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com - Seems like any post linking here is full of ignorance.

What are you talking about?  That there will be hashpower equivalent to enough HashFast dies to cover the earth's surface by 2017 is a surefire prediction.

[Anenome5]

The sad thing is, Cointerra's business model seems now to cater to the least informed buyers, those who don't realize they're going to be ripped off.

When a business does that, they have no moral standing, deserve no respect, and are preying upon their customers rather than serving mutual interest.

But it's likely that many of Cointerra's principals will experience personal and financial devastation if they do the right thing and wind down their company and admit they've now wasted millions on a strategy doomed to fail due to the appearance of far more competition than they expected.

And the worst part is, it's not even their fault. They seem a great company with great leaders, they're just 6 months too late.

[AchrafB]

The sad thing is, Cointerra's business model seems now to cater to the least informed buyers, those who don't realize they're going to be ripped off.

When a business does that, they have no moral standing, deserve no respect, and are preying upon their customers rather than serving mutual interest.

But it's likely that many of Cointerra's principals will experience personal and financial devastation if they do the right thing and wind down their company and admit they've now wasted millions on a strategy doomed to fail due to the appearance of far more competition than they expected.

And the worst part is, it's not even their fault. They seem a great company with great leaders, they're just 6 months too late.

Well said, all I hope for the miners community who make a titanic work will have their cryptoz from the satanist claws of capitalism
Salam...