CoinTerra announces its first ASIC - Hash-Rate greater than 500 GH/s

[RoadStress]

I was ready for a purchase too, but thankfully you not replying to my PM about this made me reconsider

Sorry nothing personal I get a LOT of PMs a day and some days I don't get to them all then they get buried and I forget about them.

I would point out everything is based on probable timelines and the fact that I (just my opinion) find it highly unlikely that IF Cointerra already taped out weeks ago they would just remain silent.  Press releases are cheap and a confirmed tapeout would spur MORE sales.  I don't think Cointerra is a "scam", I don't think made up a website to run off with the money but I do believe they haven't completed the tapeout.  Most likely they will and most likely they will eventually ship.   I may buy their product in the future (once they have shown they can deliver) if the price is right.

No problem(as long as you keep up with the good posts) and yes same here. I would buy their product once they have shown they can deliver.

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[DeathAndTaxes]

So for those looking for a second reference point.  Hashfast announced today they will be delayed at least three to four weeks from today (ouch) but kinda buried in that was the fact that they received the final silicon today.

Hashfast announces tapeout complete = 08/28/2013.
Hashfast announces they have final silicon = 11/07/2013.
Fabrication took 71 days from tapeout. 

That is inline with BFL 10 week time line.

[aerobatic]

So for those looking for a second reference point.  Hashfast announced today they will be delayed at least three to four weeks from today (ouch) but kinda buried in that was the fact that they received the final silicon today.

Hashfast announces tapeout complete = 08/28/2013.
Hashfast announces they have final silicon = 11/07/2013.
Fabrication took 71 days from tapeout.  

That is inline with BFL 10 week time line.

neither bfl nor hashfast broke any records in bitcoin mining asics from tape-out to production... i suspect that honour goes to kncminer.

both bfl and hf said they taped out in august.  hf was near the end of august... thus bfl could in theory have been earlier (but not much later).  thus had bfl paid for expedite fees, they would've had silicon by now...

its my understanding that kncminer, from tapeout to shipping boxes to customers was 60 days !  and if you work backwards from the 60 days... they had time to get their 4 dies mounted on the substrates, manufacture the pcbs, assemble the boxes (bring up the boards, get the firmware working) etc...  (knc fabbed their chips at tsmc as well so the timings could've been similar).  clearly, knc mustve paid extra for an expedited fab and also had all their ducks in a row for everything else they needed that wasn't just the silicon.. and that, it seems, is why knc was able to ship so quickly and has caused issues for hf.   More likely knc's was 40-45 ish days from tape-out to silicon, leaving them 15-20 days for bumping, dies onto substrate, boards, and the boxes...  

Actually.. being specific... 28nm asics have about 50 mask layers.. and takes around a day to make each mask layer.  plus some extra time at the end for bumping etc.    you pay extra to get each layer done a little faster..  you pay a lot extra for 0.8 or 0.7 Days Per ML.  You pay a HUUUGE amount extra for 0.6 or maybe even faster DPML.  in theory the fastest you could get 50 layers made is probably about 0.5days/ML (i.e.: 25 days in fab plus a few days for bumping etc).  lets assume 30 days is the fastest it could be done, and 40 is more reasonable.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I can't seem to find KNC tapeout announcement.  I believe they announced after the fact but I can't seem to find even the belated announcement anymore.   Still say KNC was 45 days.

That means with three vendors:
KNC = 45 days
Hashfast = 70 days.
BFL >70 days (still not provided any detail on exactly when taped out and hasn't yet indicated they received chips unless they were lying about Aug tapeout it is probably >70 days).

Throw another two weeks for post fabrication work and a week to hedge for any issue and you are looking at 60-90 days (possibly more for BFL) from tapeout to shipping depending on how perfect and how fast the fabrication is.  

Given that I can't really see how Cointerra is going to ship in Dec (31 DEC is 54 days away) and even Jan (31 JAN is 85 days away) becomes increasingly hard to believe if they haven't taped yet.  Maybe Cointerra would like to show us how they are going to meet their timeline or provide an update pushing shipping schedule back.  At this point they have to know if Dec/Jan is realistic or impossible waiting until Dec is just bad faith.   It isn't like they don't know.  They know if the tapeout is done, they know their delivery window from the fab. 

[aerobatic]

I can't seem to find KNC tapeout announcement.  I believe they announced after the fact but I can't seem to find even the belated announcement anymore.   Still say KNC was 45 days.

That means with three vendors:
KNC = 45 days
Hashfast = 70 days.
BFL >70 days (still not provided any detail on exactly when taped out and hasn't yet indicated they received chips unless they were lying about Aug tapeout it is probably >70 days).

Throw another three weeks for post fabrication work and you are looking at 60-90 days (possibly more for BFL) from tapeout to shipping.  Can't really see how Cointerra is going to ship in Dec and even Jan becomes hard to believe if they haven't taped yet.  Maybe Cointerra would like to show us how they are going to meet their timeline.

there's 22 days of nov and 31 days of dec left this year, 53 days total.  its certainly possible (but aggressive) to be done in time.  depends on the tape-out date.   But i don't see January as a risk.. that adds another 31 days on top of the 53...  if they're going to tape-out imminently, the dec dates are aggressive but not impossible, and the jan deliveries aren't aggressive at all.

now that hashfast has announced deliveries starting dec 15th onwards... it will be interesting to see when cointerra ships, and whether they will manage to eek back any of the time difference between their schedules.  certainly in tape-out, hashfast is more than 2 months ahead... but if cointerra can execute in anywhere near the speed that knc did, that delta between the two won't be as pronounced.  only time will tell.  meanwhile, we await cointerra's tape-out announcement with baited breath...

And anyway - this isn't a race between hf and cointerra, as they are different products at different price points... and cointerra's not announced any delay (...yet!).  they have schedules for dec and jan deliveries, and so far at least, they haven't announced any delays...

[Puppet]

I can't seem to find KNC tapeout announcement.  I believe they announced after the fact but I can't seem to find even the belated announcement anymore.   Still say KNC was 45 days.

That means with three vendors:
KNC = 45 days
Hashfast = 70 days.
BFL >70 days (still not provided any detail on exactly when taped out and hasn't yet indicated they received chips unless they were lying about Aug tapeout it is probably >70 days).

Throw another two weeks for post fabrication work and a week to hedge for any issue and you are looking at 60-90 days (possibly more for BFL) from tapeout to shipping depending on how perfect and how fast the fabrication is.  

According to BFL, a "bullet run" at globalfoundries takes 24 days. To quote Josh "The initial process is what is called a bullet run, it will allow us to get a finished set of wafers in approximately 24 days from the date we tape out."  At TSMC afaik hot lots take longer than that. Does anyone know where CT is fabbing?

As for what BFL actually achieved, if you are referring to their 65nm chip, Im quite sure they failed their first tape out attempt (the "refraction issue"), and had to redo their physical design flow. I dont think they told us when they successfully taped out.

[Minor Miner]

I can't seem to find KNC tapeout announcement.  I believe they announced after the fact but I can't seem to find even the belated announcement anymore.   Still say KNC was 45 days.

That means with three vendors:
KNC = 45 days
Hashfast = 70 days.
BFL >70 days (still not provided any detail on exactly when taped out and hasn't yet indicated they received chips unless they were lying about Aug tapeout it is probably >70 days).

Throw another two weeks for post fabrication work and a week to hedge for any issue and you are looking at 60-90 days (possibly more for BFL) from tapeout to shipping depending on how perfect and how fast the fabrication is.  

According to BFL, a "bullet run" at globalfoundries takes 24 days. To quote Josh "The initial process is what is called a bullet run, it will allow us to get a finished set of wafers in approximately 24 days from the date we tape out."  At TSMC afaik hot lots take longer than that. Does anyone know where CT is fabbing?

As for what BFL actually achieved, if you are referring to their 65nm chip, Im quite sure they failed their first tape out attempt (the "refraction issue"), and had to redo their physical design flow. I dont think they told us when they successfully taped out.

Bullet run    Rocket run   Hot Lot.   45 days at best.   it does not make each layer go faster, it reduces the time you are waiting between each layer.

[Puppet]

keep in mind a bitcoin asic almost certainly requires less metal layers than your typical soc/cpu/gpu, which will decrease fabrication time proportionally. 24 days sounds very fast to me too, but I doubt that number came out of nowhere. I actually suspect its the fabrication time, not including the tape out process and mask generation, but FWIW.

[Puppet]

BTW..

Hashfast announces they have final silicon = 11/07/2013.

One has to wonder how they ever expected to ship miners a few weeks before receiving wafers. Didnt they always claim the silion production was on schedule?

[DeathAndTaxes]

One has to wonder how they ever expected to ship miners a few weeks before receiving wafers.

That is a good question.

[Biffa]

Also when you talk of "days" in this industry are they working days or full week days including weekends and holidays?

[aerobatic]

Also when you talk of "days" in this industry are they working days or full week days including weekends and holidays?

I'm quite sure the fab works every day and doesn't take off weekends.

[aerobatic]

btw, cointerra has announced their tape-out.  more details on their web site.

[VolanicEruptor]

It makes sense why the February batch does not get reduced in price -- look at the price of bitcoin.  With bitcoin at almost 3x of what it was just recently, the profit will be 3x as much in fiat.  Anyone who is in line for Dec and Jan are now holding preorders that are beginning to gain value above the original price.  In fact if they kept the price the same for February, and the difficulty rises 100% between jan and feb, then that is a value double that of the previous month batch.  I bet i'll make my ROI on my january order within a month of when I receive it, even with ~15TH/S network hash rate.. only because its 3x easier now with this BTC price.

[iCEBREAKER]

btw, cointerra has announced their tape-out.  more details on their web site.

that is a good thing.

Not really.

Cointerra is over two months behind HashFast, and hasn't even hired a more competent design team for their next chip.

Cointerra's first chip will be competing with HashFast's second one, sometime in March/April.

Meanwhile, TSMC will be pumping out multiple batches of HashFast G1 wafers.

[VolanicEruptor]

It makes sense why the February batch does not get reduced in price -- look at the price of bitcoin.  With bitcoin at almost 3x of what it was just recently, the profit will be 3x as much in fiat.  Anyone who is in line for Dec and Jan are now holding preorders that are beginning to gain value above the original price.  In fact if they kept the price the same for February, and the difficulty rises 100% between jan and feb, then that is a value double that of the previous month batch.  I bet i'll make my ROI on my january order within a month of when I receive it, even with ~15TH/S network hash rate.. only because its 3x easier now with this BTC price.

But this does not people who paid in btc and who would have otherwise held it.

Too late for that.. this is just as good

[aerobatic]

btw, cointerra has announced their tape-out.  more details on their web site.

that is a good thing.

Not really.

Cointerra is over two months behind HashFast, and hasn't even hired a more competent design team for their next chip.

Cointerra's first chip will be competing with HashFast's second one, sometime in March/April.

Meanwhile, TSMC will be pumping out multiple batches of HashFast G1 wafers.

iceBreaker, i keep reminding you, hashfast and cointerra have different products and price points... and originally they had significantly different delivery schedules, but events have conspired to push them much closer together than anyone could've imagined.

i think KnC and Hashfast have both proved that there's a lot more to shipping on time than just having your silicon back quickly...  and that you need everything else to go right - not just the silicon - to be able to ship on time.  Hashfast has (alas) now announced a two month delay - which has effectively thrown away the lead over cointerra/bitmine/blackarrow that they had, and will be now start to ship in mid december.

Although Hashfast taped out two months earlier than Cointerra and probably a month or so before BitMine and BlackArrow, they should've been one to two months ahead with delivering boxes... and yet, the other parts of the supply chain caused their current woes.   Its a real shame, as their silicon is more or less on time (ok, two weeks late maybe) but the rest of the parts of the system are letting them down and have affected us all (I've got orders with hf and ct in batch 1, so I'm very eager to see them both ship as early as possible and i had assumed that hf would be significantly earlier than ct and now i think there'll be a lot less between them).

Cointerra are doing everything they can to keep their schedule on target, which means having all the non-silicon parts of the supply chain - the boxes, boards, power supplies, and all the components that go onto the board ready to go (just like KnC did) so that the second the chips arrive back from the fab (in late dec?) they're able to test, box and ship.    If ct's execution goes as smoothly as KnC's did, that should mean ct are days and not weeks late on their announced timeline (by End of December).   We shall see if they can keep it up...   Only time will tell if CT execute more like KnC or more like HF...  !

Icebreaker, you can stop your trolling now.  instead of months between them, there may now only be days or weeks separating the deliveries of hf and ct gear.  I'm still expecting hf to deliver first.  things will have gone very wrong if they don't.

one things for certain, both hf and ct have learned a LOT from the experience and won't make the same mistakes on their second generation chips...!  they both made mistakes, and both could've been a LOT earlier than they are, had things gone well for them.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Icebraker's nonstop trolling aside which is both annoying and excessive, you say "instead of months between them, there may now only be days or weeks".

Key word is "may", CT is already 30+ days behind tapeout.  Did their original Dec timeline have 30 days of slack?  Were they able to secure a 45 day rocket run like KNC or are they looking more like getting raw silicon back in 70 days plus another say 20 for packaging and another 10 for assembly and volume shipping (KNC didn't really get any shipping volume until 4th or 5th day).  So I am not 100% convinced that they absolutely will make Dec even if they do manage to avoid a major delay.  Dec even with no delay might be predicated on an early Oct tapeout. 

If anything HF stumble gave them a chance of closing the gap, it is entirely possible their OWN stumble ensures they won't.  One thing which may hurt but HF and CT is end of Dec is a flaking time of year.  In manufacturing industry they often have block vacation, reduced hours, shipping timelines slip because FedEX and UPS are at 300% of normal volume.  It isn't just the companies themselves but also every company the companies rely on as well.  Both CT are now in that boat but HF as least still has the possibility (we will see) of getting units out the door by mid Dec and bypassing at least some of that.  CT at best is going to be right in the middle of it.

[aerobatic]

Icebraker's nonstop trolling aside which is both annoying and excessive, you say "instead of months between them, there may now only be days or weeks".

Key word is "may", CT is already 30+ days behind tapeout.  Did their original Dec timeline have 30 days of slack.  Were they able to secure a 45 day rocket run like KNC or are they looking more like getting raw silicon back in 70 days plus another say 20 for packaging and another 10 for assembly and volume shipping (KNC didn't really get any shipping volume until 4th or 5th day).  So I am not 100% convinced that they absolutely will make Dec.  

We all know that when you takeout is a major part of achieving your delivery date, but so also is how much you pay to expedite the fab process, and how many favours you can call in, etc etc...  the actual delivery date of your chips, after tape-out is extremely negotiable... and can be had in 30-90 days.. depending on who you know and how much you pay extra.

If anything HF stumble gave them a chance of closing the gap, it is entirely possible their OWN stumble ensures they won't.  One thing which may hurt but HF and CT is end of Dec is a flaking time of year.  In manufacturing industry they often have block vacation, reduced hours, shipping timelines slip because FedEX and UPS are at 300% of normal volume.  It isn't just the companies themselves but also every company the companies rely on as well.  Both CT are now in that boat but HF as least still has the possibility (we will see) of getting units out the door by mid Dec and bypassing at least some of that.  CT at best is going to be right in the middle of it.

i always put 'time will tell' or similar words... at the end of my conjectures... since i agree, something that has gone wrong with one asic provider, may also go wrong with other ones (or different things could go wrong.. there are a lot of variables).  although the later asic companies have the ability to learn from earlier ones and try not to make the same mistakes (and make different ones ;-)   also, i think that this highlights some of the different strategies of both hf and ct for their choice of partners.  hf used a more nimble physical design partner - and worked much more closely - to excellent effect - whereas ct used a more slow and conservative partner whose staff were working much further away and this slowed down the process.  on the face of it, the more nimble people that hf used should've been a huge win for them - but the negative to that was they weren't a full service company and had specific areas of competence.. so the things that ct didn't have to worry about (like choosing and designing substrates, which were done by their partner) became  more of a problem for hf (i don't know exactly why it was such a problem!).   knc also had the benefit of a full service physical design partner, and knc also managed to avoid falling prey to substrate problems or other supply chain problems.. (all three of them use more or less the same design methodology of fitting a lot of cores on a die, and then mounting multiple dies on a substrate in a single package designed to run hot and be well cooled).  the three architectures are remarkably similar.

its clear that any of the other asic companies could stumble at any time during their production process.  hashfast was always held up as a model of speedy and aggressive execution, but seems to have suffered from the parts of the system that shouldn't have caused problems, and imho, they've been very very unlucky!  since only one other asic company has so far done anything close to what hashfast is attempting to do - namely, KncMiner - you can only hold them up as an example of a company that did get everything right.  they executed almost flawlessly.  they delivered within days of when they said they would.. and had everything ready to go... the chips, the software, the hardware, the boxes, the logistics... and even the hosting (a few days late but still done).  When people as smart and hungry as hashfast missed their dates, it makes me feel very sorry for them.. but it also makes me feel even more appreciative of what knc managed to do.  (yes, i have knc systems as well... i have a very heterogeneous mining operation)

[CYPER]

since only one other asic company has so far done anything close to what hashfast is attempting to do - namely, KncMiner - you can only hold them up as an example of a company that did get everything right.  they executed almost flawlessly.  they delivered within days of when they said they would.. and had everything ready to go... the chips, the software, the hardware, the boxes, the logistics... and even the hosting (a few days late but still done).  When people as smart and hungry as hashfast missed their dates, it makes me feel very sorry for them.. but it also makes me feel even more appreciative of what knc managed to do.  (yes, i have knc systems as well... i have a very heterogeneous mining operation)

KNC were good, but far from perfect.