Time to sue ButterflyLabs - Big Single-SC owner let's league for class action

[YipYip]

 it appears you cannot see

 I'm sorry if you cannot wrap your head around it

 Your refusal to see that doesn't change it.

sounding more like josh post by post

Agreed ...I really dont understand why the supposed "SMART" pple are the ones defending this long con

bcp Explain to me like I am a 5 yr old why BFL is "GOOD" & not "BAD"

The 'long con' terminology is one that can be used over and over and over again without a shred of  proof.
Everyone back during FPGA said the same thing, they are a scam, it's a long con, they're going to take the money and run... Didn't happen.
Again, the same thing is being said.  'what about FPGA?' "all part of the long con".
"A?" Long con.  "B?" Long con.  "C." Long con.  Nothing is good enough, it's all part of the long con.

Can you prove it is a con?  Show me proof?  Show me proof, here, today that they have taken the money and run?

Well? Is BFL shipping or have then taken the money and run?

P.S. Yes, yipyipyipyipyip, I am happy

plain and simple, (though not for k9).

Are you so smart that you are mentally retarded

"LONG CON"  Mensa boy .....

So it gets through your UBER brainpower.....This means "NOT" taking the money and running !!!

To reference something simple so you understand MADOFF kept it going for 20+ years

~15%+ delivery and having millions of dollars held hostage ...and wait UPGRADE now for more $$  (and a with a fee) and you can join the new queue of more rich's !!!

Oh wait sorry you missed the express NEW queue but have ended in just the new queue (Plus 2 more months on delivery)

This also has shades of a 419 Nigerian money scam....

Happy REALLY

1) telling all HOW SMART you are
2) Defending the indefensible
3) Basically picking an argument with a large majority of the community who all now think you are a total dick
4) Keep adding all of this extra information about your life as If we are your friends or give a fuck

You sound Sooooo happy !!!

Has retirement left you with no meaning or definition for your life....??

Go play golf I have heard that others find solace in finding some form of mild sporting activity to help fill the void !  


 

[k9quaint]

This is what people who can't do math type when they run out of arguments. Instead of equations, we get "forest forest forest"...

Hmm, it appears you cannot see the forest for the trees.  I'm sorry dude, the forest is RIGHT THERE.  I cannot help it if all you see is trees.

That's still a forest.  I'm sorry if you cannot wrap your head around it, your semantics do not change the fact that it is a forest.

Yet again, you see those trees? THAT is a forest!  Your refusal to see that doesn't change it.

Forest.  Forest. Forest. Forest. Forest. Forest. Forest.

Forest.  Many trees = forest.  Forest.  Forest.  Forest.

Still semantics and still a forest.

100 million orders is way out of the ballpark. There are only like 50,000 entities that mine bitcoin. That would be about 2000 orders per mining entity. They just changed their order number scheme part way though. If you look at the reported order list you can see where it changed. Looks like there is overlap on either side of the date too... so they did a bad job of the cut over. Maybe multiple systems handling orders and they got updated at different times.

Please don't say that!  K9 says that can't possibly be true!!! You really don't want him against you!

Actually, that is precisely what I said was true. The order books overlapped. Lack of reading comprehension pervades the posts of the BFL fan-bois. Coincidence? I think not. 1 order number != 1 order. Live it, learn it.

How to identify a die hard BFL fan-boi?
1) knows next to nothing about how bitcoin mining works
2) lacks basic math skills
3) poor reading comprehension
4) high degree of financial illiteracy
5) no understanding of software or algorithms
6) no understanding of statistics (may understand what an average is)

and the PSA for those afflicted with BFL orders:
If you have ordered from ButterFly Labs and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask ButterFly Labs for a refund, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. Multiple customers have already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises.
You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms

There are also several threads on how to get a refund from ButterFly Labs, here are two:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272585.0

[Red_Wolf_2]

I see the anti-bfl circlejerk is in full swing again.
bcp19: heres some thoughts regarding the people here - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink

I fully expect that statement to be turned around on non anti-bfl people. You'll say we are being scammed and just can't see it. Well my two jalapenos are close to 30% ROI already based on USD prices, so I really can't complain...

[bflmarket5]

Some people really got screwed with waiting i'm not surprised.

[Viceroy]

Red wolf,
How do you think people who ordered after the first month feel?  Have you no compassion for the position the company forced them into?

[Red_Wolf_2]

Red wolf,
How do you think people who ordered after the first month feel?  Have you no compassion for the position the company forced them into?

I ordered in November 2012.
Sure I have compassion, at least until they start screaming like a little kid on public transport because they thought they were going to get a guaranteed ROI on something (hint, they only ever purchased hardware with a given hash rate, not a guarantee on ROI)

[amencon]

Holy crap. BCP19 is the latest BFL sock. Everyone hail to the king of socks!

A sock? Hmm.
IQ: 148
Attended M.I.T. for 4 terms (could not afford to graduate)
worked odd jobs for 2 years
Joined the military.  Scored in the 98th percentile on the ASVAB.
Trained as an Aviation Electronics Technician
Worked and flew on the P-3C, in excess of 3,500 hours of flight time.
Retired after 20 years.

I sure don't see sock puppet in there anywhere, sorry.

Sorry but any time you bullet point your life achievements to strangers on an internet forums in order to give yourself some kind of credibility you've already lost.

The reasons not to do this are 2-fold:
1. Anyone can claim anything
2. Internet strangers don't care

Let your arguments stand on their own merit.  Either you've lied about your background to bolster your credibility (very sad) or you were completely accurate in which case nobody gives a fuck and you look dumb trying to impress people with something not related to the discussion at all.  What does your IQ or military experience have to do with a BFL lawsuit?

A high IQ doesn't do anything to make your ideas or positions appear any less like a sock puppet (not that I think you are one).

Fun Fact: I was a 1N2 in the military and sat the same racks copying the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident intelligence failure a couple years before me.  I suppose it's even possible I copied mission on some of your flights.

1. Maybe the purpose behind the bullets was to troll people into commenting?  After all, I am a shill, a fanboi, a sock-puppet and a troll according to these posters.

2. See #1.

3. Ok, so nobody gives a fuck, see #1.  They have nothing to do with a lawsuit, they were claiming I am Josh posting under a psuedonym.

4. True.  But talking about it makes me refer to #1.

Those are EP-3's and I flew on regular P-3C's.  Big difference between them.  I had to sign an NDA the first time I had to work on an EP-3.  All I can say is WOW!
While I was deployed to Japan and Deigo Garcia many times, we never had IN's on our flights.

If your intention was to troll then I suppose you were pretty successful, nice job I guess.

With your high ASVAB I assumed they'd have likely assigned you to higher clearance aircraft, there was a guy in basic that was going to do mechanical work on one of the stealth planes and he had a high ASVAB score though maybe there is no correlation.  While some 1N2s do fly with the aircraft most copy mission on the ground far away.

[k9quaint]

I see the anti-bfl circlejerk is in full swing again.
bcp19: heres some thoughts regarding the people here - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink

Oh how false the first statement is and how true the second. Some people just don't have the math to see.

I fully expect that statement to be turned around on non anti-bfl people. You'll say we are being scammed and just can't see it. Well my two jalapenos are close to 30% ROI already based on USD prices, so I really can't complain...

Oh how true the first statement is, and the second for that matter. The third is true, you can't complain because you haven't the wits to see that you were scammed.
Just like people who "invest" $100 in a "gold" coin that has $10 of gold in it, you paid 26 BTC for a device that will only mine you 8 BTC. Of course, you were promised a lot more than that. You were promised a device that would return 3 to 4 times that in BTC and then some. But the delays nibbled away at your returns...

Sure, the price of gold may rise 10 fold and bail out the gold coin "investor", but that doesn't change the fact that they got ripped off. If BFL delivered like they said they would, you would have mined your 26 BTC back and then some. Sadly it turns out that you paid $42 per BTC when the price was only $12. You'll never earn back your 26 BTC and thus will never have a positive ROI.

BFL offered a hashrate to be delivered within a certain time, yet you still pretend the time part doesn't matter. But it does. That is what screwed you.

[Viceroy]

Red wolf,
How do you think people who ordered after the first month feel?  Have you no compassion for the position the company forced them into?

I ordered in November 2012.
Sure I have compassion, at least until they start screaming like a little kid on public transport because they thought they were going to get a guaranteed ROI on something (hint, they only ever purchased hardware with a given hash rate, not a guarantee on ROI)

The reason someone purchased is not relevant.  The issue is that members of this forum who appear to have a conscience want the world to know that BFL has a long history of broken promises and flat out lies by senior management.  

Until the admin of this site stops allowing BFL to advertise here these honorable heroes will continue to warn the world that BFL has all the markings of a long con and many many dissatisfied current and former customers.

[Unacceptable]

Red wolf,
How do you think people who ordered after the first month feel?  Have you no compassion for the position the company forced them into?

I ordered in November 2012.
Sure I have compassion, at least until they start screaming like a little kid on public transport because they thought they were going to get a guaranteed ROI on something (hint, they only ever purchased hardware with a given hash rate, not a guarantee on ROI)

Tell ya what Red_Wolf_2...give me $30,000 & I'll turn it into $50,000...............but first you have to wait a year & a half to get ANY returns on it,I guess you'd go for that  

Oh & NO REFUNDS!!!!!!!!!    & you'll get it when you get...deal with it 

[k9quaint]

Red wolf,
How do you think people who ordered after the first month feel?  Have you no compassion for the position the company forced them into?

I ordered in November 2012.
Sure I have compassion, at least until they start screaming like a little kid on public transport because they thought they were going to get a guaranteed ROI on something (hint, they only ever purchased hardware with a given hash rate, not a guarantee on ROI)

Tell ya what Red_Wolf_2...give me $30,000 & I'll turn it into $50,000...............but first you have to wait a year & a half to get ANY returns on it,I guess you'd go for that 

Oh & NO REFUNDS!!!!!!!!! 

I would just ask him to give you 26 BTC and you will give him back 8 BTC in a year's time. He seems to like that trade. Just put a QTY box and hope for double digits! 

[Red_Wolf_2]

Oh yeah, and with 20/20 hindsight we all knew the bitcoin price was going to go to $250+... Suuuure...
Truth is, people took some risks, and in their opinion it didn't pay off. As much as it seems to be the thing to blame others for mistakes made by people, you really do need to face up to the fact that it was always a risk to do business with BFL. I did because the risk didn't bother me, in the end it will likely pay off for me.

Again we get back to the paying with bitcoin stuff. That was my decision, and at the time I actually figured there was a good chance bitcoin would go back to the ~$3 range (the price rise already looked like a bubble then). I took that risk, it didn't pay off, but that is life. If I had invested real money rather than gpu time I would only be concerned with ROI on the cash I put in, namely what bitcoin is worth in FIAT today. Now if the price of bitcoin had remained steady but the difficulty had climbed as high as it has, then there would be reason to be pissed off.

With the 20/20 hindsight, you may as well say we all got ripped off for not mining more with GPUs when bitcoin first started up, or when OpenCL based mining was developed. It is silly to work on this basis, and the only reason you do so is because you WANT people to feel ripped off, in order to stoke and stroke your ego more. Guess it makes you feel righteous and that you matter in this world a bit?

Oh, and honorable heroes? You've done it now... Seriously, it will take k9 and phinneaus a few hours to recover and rejoin the circlejerk.
k9: Didn't know you found circlejerks to be so mathematical!

[Viceroy]

Again Wolf,

It's not about you.  Is about informing those who otherwise might believe BFL is a good company to order from.  If you go by the advertisers in this forum you might think BFL is legitimate because they spend so much money advertising here (and elsewhere). 

These hero members are keeping the playing field even.  It is every bitcoiners duty to help inform others of BFLs shady practices.  If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem I'm afraid.

[k9quaint]

Oh yeah, and with 20/20 hindsight we all knew the bitcoin price was going to go to $250+... Suuuure...

No. Incorrect. This is not about exchange rates after you bought your mined BTC. You traded 26 BTC for 8 BTC. There is no single exchange rate that will make 8 BTC be worth more than 26 BTC.

Truth is, people took some risks, and in their opinion it didn't pay off. As much as it seems to be the thing to blame others for mistakes made by people, you really do need to face up to the fact that it was always a risk to do business with BFL.

Yes. Doing business with BFL is very risky. They are shady. They tell you when you will have your product, and when that day comes they fail to deliver. For time sensitive deliveries (like mining equipment) that is very destructive to value.

I did because the risk didn't bother me, in the end it will likely pay off for me.

You traded 26 BTC for 8 BTC. This makes you happy. Some people get their kicks being tortured and beaten. Who am I to judge.
But when you try to convince others to buy BFL to justify your own failures, that is where I will judge.

Again we get back to the paying with bitcoin stuff. That was my decision, and at the time I actually figured there was a good chance bitcoin would go back to the ~$3 range (the price rise already looked like a bubble then). I took that risk, it didn't pay off, but that is life. If I had invested real money rather than gpu time I would only be concerned with ROI on the cash I put in, namely what bitcoin is worth in FIAT today. Now if the price of bitcoin had remained steady but the difficulty had climbed as high as it has, then there would be reason to be pissed off.

Paying with Bitcoin or GBP or EUR or USD or RUS or RMB or HKD doesn't matter. What matters is how much value in Bitcoin you gave away in order to get the Bitcoin from BFL. You gave away 26 Bitcoin worth of value in order to get 8 Bitcoin (maybe less) worth of mining. That is always a bad deal. You will always do better by not making that trade. At the time you made the purchase, BFL promised you that you would get your product in time to make your 26 BTC back and then some.

With the 20/20 hindsight, you may as well say we all got ripped off for not mining more with GPUs when bitcoin first started up, or when OpenCL based mining was developed. It is silly to work on this basis, and the only reason you do so is because you WANT people to feel ripped off, in order to stoke and stroke your ego more. Guess it makes you feel righteous and that you matter in this world a bit?

Is it silly to examine the result of a trade after the fact? Yes, we have 20/20 hindsight and with that hindsight we can now see that BFL ripped you off.  Is the reason you blind yourself is because of pride? We have 20/20 hindsight now that they have finally delivered to you (some people we still don't know how badly they have been scammed). We can see that your trade with BFL was a bad one. What is even worse is that with 20/20 hindsight you cannot see it because of willful blindness.

You gave BFL 26 BTC and they promised to give you back far more BTC in the form of delivering you the hashing power to mine it in Oct 2012. They did not do that. They gave you barely enough mining to get back 8 BTC in Aug 2013. The principal value in mining equipment is in the hashing power and the time you receive it. Your hashing power ordered was 10GH/s, your time to receive was Oct 2012. BFL failed to deliver the value they promised you.

[Trupik]

I see the anti-bfl circlejerk is in full swing again.
bcp19: heres some thoughts regarding the people here - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink

I fully expect that statement to be turned around on non anti-bfl people. You'll say we are being scammed and just can't see it. Well my two jalapenos are close to 30% ROI already based on USD prices, so I really can't complain...

I'm glad that your experience with BFL is positive. Unfortunately mine experience differs completely. The way I see it, your happily hashing Jalapenos are made possible only with the money put in by Single and MiniRig customers. They are now being screwed big time by this infamous company.

The only thing I want from them now is to obey the law and give me my refund.

[nexus99]

I think the folks here that don't like the BFL ads should boycott these forums.

[k9quaint]

I think the folks here that don't like the BFL ads should boycott these forums.

By supporting these forums, BFL is supporting our ability to reach thousands of readers with this message:

If you have ordered from ButterFly Labs and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask ButterFly Labs for a refund, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. Multiple customers have already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises.
You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms

There are also several threads on how to get a refund from ButterFly Labs, here are two:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272585.0

[Bicknellski]

How is the SUIT going...

Any progress?

BFL = Shady.

[Red_Wolf_2]

Oh yeah, and with 20/20 hindsight we all knew the bitcoin price was going to go to $250+... Suuuure...

No. Incorrect. This is not about exchange rates after you bought your mined BTC. You traded 26 BTC for 8 BTC. There is no single exchange rate that will make 8 BTC be worth more than 26 BTC.

Truth is, people took some risks, and in their opinion it didn't pay off. As much as it seems to be the thing to blame others for mistakes made by people, you really do need to face up to the fact that it was always a risk to do business with BFL.

Yes. Doing business with BFL is very risky. They are shady. They tell you when you will have your product, and when that day comes they fail to deliver. For time sensitive deliveries (like mining equipment) that is very destructive to value.

I did because the risk didn't bother me, in the end it will likely pay off for me.

You traded 26 BTC for 8 BTC. This makes you happy. Some people get their kicks being tortured and beaten. Who am I to judge.
But when you try to convince others to buy BFL to justify your own failures, that is where I will judge.

Again we get back to the paying with bitcoin stuff. That was my decision, and at the time I actually figured there was a good chance bitcoin would go back to the ~$3 range (the price rise already looked like a bubble then). I took that risk, it didn't pay off, but that is life. If I had invested real money rather than gpu time I would only be concerned with ROI on the cash I put in, namely what bitcoin is worth in FIAT today. Now if the price of bitcoin had remained steady but the difficulty had climbed as high as it has, then there would be reason to be pissed off.

Paying with Bitcoin or GBP or EUR or USD or RUS or RMB or HKD doesn't matter. What matters is how much value in Bitcoin you gave away in order to get the Bitcoin from BFL. You gave away 26 Bitcoin worth of value in order to get 8 Bitcoin (maybe less) worth of mining. That is always a bad deal. You will always do better by not making that trade. At the time you made the purchase, BFL promised you that you would get your product in time to make your 26 BTC back and then some.

With the 20/20 hindsight, you may as well say we all got ripped off for not mining more with GPUs when bitcoin first started up, or when OpenCL based mining was developed. It is silly to work on this basis, and the only reason you do so is because you WANT people to feel ripped off, in order to stoke and stroke your ego more. Guess it makes you feel righteous and that you matter in this world a bit?

Is it silly to examine the result of a trade after the fact? Yes, we have 20/20 hindsight and with that hindsight we can now see that BFL ripped you off.  Is the reason you blind yourself is because of pride? We have 20/20 hindsight now that they have finally delivered to you (some people we still don't know how badly they have been scammed). We can see that your trade with BFL was a bad one. What is even worse is that with 20/20 hindsight you cannot see it because of willful blindness.

You gave BFL 26 BTC and they promised to give you back far more BTC in the form of delivering you the hashing power to mine it in Oct 2012. They did not do that. They gave you barely enough mining to get back 8 BTC in Aug 2013. The principal value in mining equipment is in the hashing power and the time you receive it. Your hashing power ordered was 10GH/s, your time to receive was Oct 2012. BFL failed to deliver the value they promised you.

And yet again you miss the obvious. The value of 26 bitcoin in November 2012 was a lot lower than it is now. There is a time component involved, which you only seem to selectively see when it comes to product delivery date, yet completely ignore in the context of what bitcoin were valued at at the time of purchase.
Your argument is false, because it is like saying "You sold bitcoin at $3 a year ago, they're now $130, you got ripped off/scammed!"
It is wrong, there is no way you can twist that around without looking like an idiot.
I'm not blind. I know full well I could have ended up with more cash in hand if I had simply sat on the coin I had and done nothing. I am also not blind to the fact that I made the choice to spend said bitcoin in November 2012. I take responsibility for that decision, which is clearly more than others here. I have not forget all the people who felt mislead because they couldn't get refunds of exactly the same amount of bitcoin they put in before the april price spike. They weren't mislead, they just had buyers remorse and wished instead that they had swapped them for USD.

[Unacceptable]

Oh yeah, and with 20/20 hindsight we all knew the bitcoin price was going to go to $250+... Suuuure...
Truth is, people took some risks, and in their opinion it didn't pay off. As much as it seems to be the thing to blame others for mistakes made by people, you really do need to face up to the fact that it was always a risk to do business with BFL. I did because the risk didn't bother me, in the end it will likely pay off for me.

Again we get back to the paying with bitcoin stuff. That was my decision, and at the time I actually figured there was a good chance bitcoin would go back to the ~$3 range (the price rise already looked like a bubble then). I took that risk, it didn't pay off, but that is life. If I had invested real money rather than gpu time I would only be concerned with ROI on the cash I put in, namely what bitcoin is worth in FIAT today. Now if the price of bitcoin had remained steady but the difficulty had climbed as high as it has, then there would be reason to be pissed off.

With the 20/20 hindsight, you may as well say we all got ripped off for not mining more with GPUs when bitcoin first started up, or when OpenCL based mining was developed. It is silly to work on this basis, and the only reason you do so is because you WANT people to feel ripped off, in order to stoke and stroke your ego more. Guess it makes you feel righteous and that you matter in this world a bit?

Oh, and honorable heroes? You've done it now... Seriously, it will take k9 and phinneaus a few hours to recover and rejoin the circlejerk.
k9: Didn't know you found circlejerks to be so mathematical!

When I ordered my 4 Jalapeno's,my math was at $6 per BTC.So,100BTC ($600) at a diff of 6569200 (50TH),it would have taken about 2 months...back then.

                  Coins   Dollars

 per Day      ฿2.30    $13.78

per Week    ฿16.08   $96.46

per Month   ฿69.82  $418.91

Thank god I upgraded to a LS,that extra 12GH made a big difference in my profit margin..........

I/we had NO idea that BTC was going to go up so soon...thank god it did,otherwise I NEVER WOULD HAVE ROI"D !!!!!!!

It worked out ONLY because the spike in BTC price.

I still won't get my 100BTC out of it,but I have got my money back...only because I ordered 1st day  

They aren't even out of July order's for LS & Singles......WTF  

IF BFL had delivered in January as I had thought,I/we would have made out like 1st batch Avalons did,almost......but NOOOO,BFL couldn't do anything right & THEN LIED ABOUT IT,saying "2 more weeks™",over & over & over again.Thats what I'm pissed about,being late & LYING for freakin 6 months................

I've been mining since June 2011 with a startup of $1000,I made almost $8,000 or more with that initial investment & haven't put any cash out of pocket in since then.Had BFL delivered on time I would have made enough to reinvest several times over,but to keep "in the game",I'm going to have to add several thousand dollars ....again...

You just don't get it do you,in about 2 months or less the only BFL customers to make ANYTHING off thier investment will be the MR guys...maybe.All other devices will be paperweights...NO ROI....nothing extra.

You have a November order     LMAO,you'll see how much you'll make back when you get your order in October.........or later  

This isn't about "ego's",this is about LIARS,pure & simple.Oh wait,that's why you can't get it,it's too simple..................