Time to sue ButterflyLabs - Big Single-SC owner let's league for class action

[Jaymax]

That is specifically why I set the trap, I was sure they would both spell it incorrectly.  Josh is BCP.

And going from 90% probability to 99% probability has achieved what, exactly?  

[Trupik]

no one will sue BFL ... im pretty sure ... only big mouth talkers around here

I believe, that BFL is in fact being sued multiple times already. It is worth to sue for couple hundreds dollars, actually. Anyone who paid 30k for a MiniRig has a helluva incentive to contact their lawyer. My stake is much lower and I'm half a world from America, but I'm still going to visit mine attorney tomorrow - to see what can be done.

[Jaymax]

no one will sue BFL ... im pretty sure ... only big mouth talkers around here

I'm filling FTC complain actually.

/facepalm

[bcp19]

BFL will pay for acting like fraudster and mafia with its customer. I'm filling complain with FTC and won't stop there.

Does the FTC take action over fraudulent complaints?  It'd be interesting to point them to this thread.

What if anything is FRAUDULENT in these threads other than Inaba and BFL lying?
What does a forum have to do with a complaint with the FTC?
Are you going to make a complaint to the FTC about the forum posts made here... you do know how the procedure works right?

All this is going to end in a courtroom. Jail time be nice for some of these people given the magnitude of the money involved. Better start getting your exit strategies going and who you want point the finger at to get off with a slap on the wrist.

BFL is fraudulent AND part of the mafia now.

The wowzers just keep piling up.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

If your intention was to troll then I suppose you were pretty successful, nice job I guess.

With your high ASVAB I assumed they'd have likely assigned you to higher clearance aircraft, there was a guy in basic that was going to do mechanical work on one of the stealth planes and he had a high ASVAB score though maybe there is no correlation.  While some 1N2s do fly with the aircraft most copy mission on the ground far away.

I did know by putting it out there that people would jump all over it, so, yea, kinda to troll.

[off-topic]When I first went to the recruiter, he handed me a test to take and I did.  When he reveiwed my answers, he pulled out a second test and asked me to take it.  Then he gave me a third test.  Then he starting telling me about the Navy's nuclear technician jobs and how they had a $20k signing bonus and all the usual pap they spread.  It sounded challenging so I agreed and he started the paperwork.  After taking the ASVAB and another test, I was taken to see a commander who told me I had done quite well, but, there was a problem.  I had listed having 3 speeding tickets within the last 2 years on my paperwork and I was considered a secruity risk and unable to go into the program.  I then chose to be an Aviation Anti-Submarine Warfare Technician as they had the fewest number of people in thier field.  Since the P-3 is(well was) an ASW platform, that is where I ended up.  When they combined the ratings I became a simple Aviation Electronics technician.[/offtopic]

I took the same test and aced it. There was an extensive background check since my dad was from Lithuanian (this was in 1978), and I was informed that subs and planes would probably out outta the question due to my height, leaving only entelligense. 

[k9quaint]

Out of curiosity, did anyone ever correct you on your 'en mass' statement?

Yes, several people pointed it out when I posted it.

stfu and refund me BBB 9660523

No.  Put on your big boy pants first and accept responsibility for your actions, then we'll talk.

That just cost BFL $16,000 for knowingly violating FTC rules about offering refunds for unshipped merchandise.
Although, at this point BFL is more worried about having to refund their customers than they are about breaking the law.

[bcp19]

Out of curiosity, did anyone ever correct you on your 'en mass' statement?

Yes, several people pointed it out when I posted it.

stfu and refund me BBB 9660523

No.  Put on your big boy pants first and accept responsibility for your actions, then we'll talk.

That just cost BFL $16,000 for knowingly violating FTC rules about offering refunds for unshipped merchandise.
Although, at this point BFL is more worried about having to refund their customers than they are about breaking the law.

I doubt it.  All I see is a uncouth person using a foul languaged acronym demanding a refund.  Last time I checked, this forum is not the official site to request refunds.

[Bicknellski]

Out of curiosity, did anyone ever correct you on your 'en mass' statement?

Yes, several people pointed it out when I posted it.

stfu and refund me BBB 9660523

No.  Put on your big boy pants first and accept responsibility for your actions, then we'll talk.

That just cost BFL $16,000 for knowingly violating FTC rules about offering refunds for unshipped merchandise.
Although, at this point BFL is more worried about having to refund their customers than they are about breaking the law.

I doubt it.  All I see is a uncouth person using a foul languaged acronym demanding a refund.  Last time I checked, this forum is not the official site to request refunds.

Now you know for a fact that won't cost BFL 16K. And you are now the judge of decorum? You are aware that Josh himself is very uncouth and has used foul language multiple times right? Last time I checked BFL is still refusing to refund people against the law and it will be for the FTC to determine what will be done not you or Josh. I am guessing this will implode a lot sooner as the masses are whipped up en masse to file complaints and lawsuits. Ya great strategy... provoke the throng well played.

[joeventura]

You said this on June 22nd:

"Production is slowly ramping up and we are easily able to manufacture  200 units a day currently - there will be no problem hitting 400 units a  day once things are in full production."

Its almost September, when do things go into full production??
How many you manufacturing a day now?  [don't worry we don't expect you to know, you are just the COO, so no reply expected]


On Jun 19th you said this:
""What's the ETA for new orders placed today?" - Sometime in September is my guess."  

90 days. You haven't shipped July 2012 in 90 days.


On Jun 19th you also said:

""Josh,you were thinking all 2012 (non-MR) pre orders would be shipped by end of July, still feel that way?" Yeah, I think we'll get it done."

[WRONG AGAIN]

On June 17th you said:
" We have a bunch of singles doing burn in right now and they'll be  shipping tomorrow."

It took you in excess of 50 days to get Singles from June 23rd out the door


On June 9th you said:

So far, it's looking like 400 a day was a conservative estimate  (that's 400 aggregate across all product lines, not 400 per product  line).  With a partial team going on the Jalapeno's, we can easily do 200 in about 5 hours.

[Then why haven't you? You haven't got 400 a day out the door EVER]

[fractal02]

Trust me...

Anyone go on trial...

Most of the whiners want a refunds on Jalapeno...274 dollars...
Even if it's for a Single (2499 dollars) , you really think that a lawyer is cheap ?
To make a full trial ? Huuu ?

Oh well, you can found some cheap lawyer...with a full cheap defense...and a big loose at the end.

And the costs of the opposing party to pay.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

A fraud is an intentionally false representation made with the intent to mislead the listener, and that the listener relied on "to her detriment."

The first part means that fraud must involve an intentional lie.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2013/01/fraud-vs-lying-whats-the-legal-difference.html


Try again fanboi, and stop with the red herrings already.

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

IF BFL had delivered in January as I had thought,I/we would have made out like 1st batch Avalons did,almost

This is why you don't understand how bitcoin works and why your arguments are laughable.  Do you seriously believe you would be the only person receiving a unit?  Because that is the only scenario where this statement would be true, otherwise, it's just plain false.

Have your miners received FCC approval yet?

A fraud is an intentionally false representation made with the intent to mislead the listener, and that the listener relied on "to her detriment."

The first part means that fraud must involve an intentional lie.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2013/01/fraud-vs-lying-whats-the-legal-difference.html


Try again fanboi, and stop with the red herrings already.

The first part means that fraud must involve an intentional lie. If you truly believe you're telling the truth and end up being wrong, that doesn't qualify.

You are confusing your lies. 

No confusion in this regard!

[Bicknellski]

You said this on June 22nd:

"Production is slowly ramping up and we are easily able to manufacture  200 units a day currently - there will be no problem hitting 400 units a  day once things are in full production."

Its almost September, when do things go into full production??
How many you manufacturing a day now?  [don't worry we don't expect you to know, you are just the COO, so no reply expected]


On Jun 19th you said this:
""What's the ETA for new orders placed today?" - Sometime in September is my guess."  

90 days. You haven't shipped July 2012 in 90 days.


On Jun 19th you also said:

""Josh,you were thinking all 2012 (non-MR) pre orders would be shipped by end of July, still feel that way?" Yeah, I think we'll get it done."

[WRONG AGAIN]

On June 17th you said:
" We have a bunch of singles doing burn in right now and they'll be  shipping tomorrow."

It took you in excess of 50 days to get Singles from June 23rd out the door


On June 9th you said:

So far, it's looking like 400 a day was a conservative estimate  (that's 400 aggregate across all product lines, not 400 per product  line).  With a partial team going on the Jalapeno's, we can easily do 200 in about 5 hours.

[Then why haven't you? You haven't got 400 a day out the door EVER]

It burns... don't it. You got to WHIP IT! Whip it GOOD!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

lol.  Just a second ago you told me there is a difference between the words fraud and lie.  Now you can't give me a simple two word term that is French in origin and means to ship "in a mass; as a group", is that correct?

Can you tell me how to tune a hetrodyne receiver?  Can you tell me why a inductive capacatance circuit is bad?  Do you know what hysteresis loss is?

The first question, yes. The other two, no. (unless I Google it, then all three is yes)

[Phinnaeus Gage]

By all means, keep casting about, trying to find something to blame on BFL.  Now that we are shipping en mass, the level of crazy has gone through the roof of the likes of Phin.  They are so desperate to find something so they don't look like complete idiots for crying about how it's a scam and BFL is going to run away with your money, waaa waaa waa!

I find it very amusing to watch pathetic attempts like yours, Augusto.  "Bruno base his opinion on very factual and straightfoward evidence."  Laughable... not a single thing that flows from Bruno's fingers has integrity, honesty or facts... it's.  He's almost as delusional as poor old Puerto Libre.

The correct answer is, and ANY MIT student knows this....

EN MASSE!

You are so stupid.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.msg2621497#msg2621497

I just Googled 'en mass' in images, and here's one of the results:

[Trupik]

Trust me...

Anyone go on trial...

Most of the whiners want a refunds on Jalapeno...274 dollars...
Even if it's for a Single (2499 dollars) , you really think that a lawyer is cheap ?
To make a full trial ? Huuu ?

Oh well, you can found some cheap lawyer...with a full cheap defense...and a big loose at the end.

And the costs of the opposing party to pay.

Well, I sued 4 people successfully in my country over the past years. They all had written contracts, which they didn't feel like fulfilling after receiving my money. The cost of suing them was only a small fracture of my claim. Three times I won completely, one time partially (the judge rejected the interest and my legal costs). It was still well worth it. Maybe the U.S. system is different, but it is worth trying.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

lol.  Just a second ago you told me there is a difference between the words fraud and lie.  Now you can't give me a simple two word term that is French in origin and means to ship "in a mass; as a group", is that correct?

I am not french, your definition sparks nothing in my memory.  How can I know shomething if I cannot remember having heard it?  Does IQ = Omnipotence?

Its a puzzle, it requires little thought. (Thats where the IQ part comes in.)

Someone with a high IQ and having attended MIT should have been able to operate "the googles on the interwebs".
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=en+masse

it always amazes me the number of people who equate IQ with Knowledge.  A walking dictionary I am not.  While I could have looked it up, that wasn't part of the exercise.  I was asked for knowledge.  I did not have that as ready knowledge.

Your purile tauntings show your lack of knowledge on this subject.

In other words, you have never heard of the term 'en masse' in your lifetime.

I figured it out in the first few seconds but then thought he might be looking for an english term (which honestly stumped me).

As soon as he defined it as french...that pretty much made it point blank obvious. It was a puzzle.

I, too, guessed 'en masse', but seriously thought it was a trick question with a different answer, thus doubting my guess.

[bcp19]

Now you know for a fact that won't cost BFL 16K. And you are now the judge of decorum? You are aware that Josh himself is very uncouth and has used foul language multiple times right? Last time I checked BFL is still refusing to refund people against the law and it will be for the FTC to determine what will be done not you or Josh. I am guessing this will implode a lot sooner as the masses are whipped up en masse to file complaints and lawsuits. Ya great strategy... provoke the throng well played.

I'm sorry, but this is NOT the place to make OFFICAL requests for refunds.  K9 spouts off that a denial on here will cost BFL $16,000.  Never happen.  If you cannot see that, then nobody, not even God can open your eyes to fact.  You want a refund, you'd better start by going to BFL's website and requesting it through PROPER channels.  The court will not care if you post on a chinese blog that you want a refund and were told no.  If you and your throng don't care about real legalities, maybe I should take time to appear in court when you try to sue.  I always love a good comedy.

[mah87]

no one will sue BFL ... im pretty sure ... only big mouth talkers around here

I believe, that BFL is in fact being sued multiple times already. It is worth to sue for couple hundreds dollars, actually. Anyone who paid 30k for a MiniRig has a helluva incentive to contact their lawyer. My stake is much lower and I'm half a world from America, but I'm still going to visit mine attorney tomorrow - to see what can be done.

Please inform everybody of your research thank you for your support.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

That is specifically why I set the trap, I was sure they would both spell it incorrectly.  Josh is BCP.

Fuck me! I seriously voted no. Can we get another thread/poll so I can change my vote?

[Unacceptable]

Oh yeah, and with 20/20 hindsight we all knew the bitcoin price was going to go to $250+... Suuuure...

No. Incorrect. This is not about exchange rates after you bought your mined BTC. You traded 26 BTC for 8 BTC. There is no single exchange rate that will make 8 BTC be worth more than 26 BTC.

Truth is, people took some risks, and in their opinion it didn't pay off. As much as it seems to be the thing to blame others for mistakes made by people, you really do need to face up to the fact that it was always a risk to do business with BFL.

Yes. Doing business with BFL is very risky. They are shady. They tell you when you will have your product, and when that day comes they fail to deliver. For time sensitive deliveries (like mining equipment) that is very destructive to value.

I did because the risk didn't bother me, in the end it will likely pay off for me.

You traded 26 BTC for 8 BTC. This makes you happy. Some people get their kicks being tortured and beaten. Who am I to judge.
But when you try to convince others to buy BFL to justify your own failures, that is where I will judge.

Again we get back to the paying with bitcoin stuff. That was my decision, and at the time I actually figured there was a good chance bitcoin would go back to the ~$3 range (the price rise already looked like a bubble then). I took that risk, it didn't pay off, but that is life. If I had invested real money rather than gpu time I would only be concerned with ROI on the cash I put in, namely what bitcoin is worth in FIAT today. Now if the price of bitcoin had remained steady but the difficulty had climbed as high as it has, then there would be reason to be pissed off.

Paying with Bitcoin or GBP or EUR or USD or RUS or RMB or HKD doesn't matter. What matters is how much value in Bitcoin you gave away in order to get the Bitcoin from BFL. You gave away 26 Bitcoin worth of value in order to get 8 Bitcoin (maybe less) worth of mining. That is always a bad deal. You will always do better by not making that trade. At the time you made the purchase, BFL promised you that you would get your product in time to make your 26 BTC back and then some.

With the 20/20 hindsight, you may as well say we all got ripped off for not mining more with GPUs when bitcoin first started up, or when OpenCL based mining was developed. It is silly to work on this basis, and the only reason you do so is because you WANT people to feel ripped off, in order to stoke and stroke your ego more. Guess it makes you feel righteous and that you matter in this world a bit?

Is it silly to examine the result of a trade after the fact? Yes, we have 20/20 hindsight and with that hindsight we can now see that BFL ripped you off.  Is the reason you blind yourself is because of pride? We have 20/20 hindsight now that they have finally delivered to you (some people we still don't know how badly they have been scammed). We can see that your trade with BFL was a bad one. What is even worse is that with 20/20 hindsight you cannot see it because of willful blindness.

You gave BFL 26 BTC and they promised to give you back far more BTC in the form of delivering you the hashing power to mine it in Oct 2012. They did not do that. They gave you barely enough mining to get back 8 BTC in Aug 2013. The principal value in mining equipment is in the hashing power and the time you receive it. Your hashing power ordered was 10GH/s, your time to receive was Oct 2012. BFL failed to deliver the value they promised you.

And yet again you miss the obvious. The value of 26 bitcoin in November 2012 was a lot lower than it is now. There is a time component involved, which you only seem to selectively see when it comes to product delivery date, yet completely ignore in the context of what bitcoin were valued at at the time of purchase.
Your argument is false, because it is like saying "You sold bitcoin at $3 a year ago, they're now $130, you got ripped off/scammed!"
It is wrong, there is no way you can twist that around without looking like an idiot.
I'm not blind. I know full well I could have ended up with more cash in hand if I had simply sat on the coin I had and done nothing. I am also not blind to the fact that I made the choice to spend said bitcoin in November 2012. I take responsibility for that decision, which is clearly more than others here. I have not forget all the people who felt mislead because they couldn't get refunds of exactly the same amount of bitcoin they put in before the april price spike. They weren't mislead, they just had buyers remorse and wished instead that they had swapped them for USD.

I think the simplest way to look at it is that buying a machine that makes BTC is essentially buying BTC.  If you want to complicate things and add currency speculation on top of it all then you're right that a time component was involved.  When speculating on currency timing is often everything.  BFL stated an approximate date you'd begin to generate your BTC, by delaying they also threw off any currency speculation their customers were counting on as well as diminishing the amount of BTC they'd generate.  Your tack only makes the argument worse for BFL.  When you buy BTC on an exchange it's important that transactions get executed in a timely manner.  If an exchange held your trade for months on end and you lost a ton of money in the conversion then the exchange would have screwed you, regardless of the potential alternate future where the trade made you money, much in the same way BFL screwed you.

The obvious rebuttal to this is that BFL offered refunds so the second the delays started screwing up customers' potential currency speculations they had the option to refund and buy BTC instead, but this defense is at least partially mitigated by the fact that BFL dangled the imminent completion of their products continuously.  Many customers thought 2 more weeks didn't change their speculative assessment of their potential profits and most ended up like frogs being boiled slowly until it was too late.

Of course I'm not saying that had BFL delivered when promised there wouldn't be customers that miscalculated and made a poor investment necessarily.  However it is peoples' prerogative to make any investment they choose, as long as they are screwing themselves and not other people most here won't care much.  The important thing is to try to hold bitcoin companies to have ethical business practices and keep to promises they make to their customers so that customers have the information needed to make informed buying decisions (whether they end up good or bad).

Very well said,amencon !!!!!!!!!!!!