[Dispute resolved and sunshine and beams and all that]

[KeyserSoze]

[Dispute resolved and sunshine and beams and all that]

[1714477466]

1714477466

[1714477466]

1714477466

[Maged]

Have you PM'd him about this thread? It'd be great to hear the other side before we mark the account as a scammer over 1 BTC.

[KeyserSoze]

Have you PM'd him about this thread? It'd be great to hear the other side before we mark the account as a scammer over 1 BTC.

No I have not PMed him. I gave him a few days before posting.

Not sure what good it would do me to bother letting him know. He's well aware he owes me, agreed to pay on delivery and now tells me I need to wait until he gets around to it (if indeed he ever does). He lied when he requested service to be paid on delivery when he never had BTC to begin with. He lied when he asked me to wait claiming his BTC "was on another machine" - he never had any. Now he's telling me that 1BTC really isn't worth much so it can't be affecting me to have wait until he feels like getting around to paying. This is him beginning to convince himself he doesn't ever have to pay (if he ever really intended to pay at all).

I'll agree 1BTC isn't much and obviously the point is no longer about the payment itself. I have no recourse but to let the forum know Bitmole scammed me.

[Maged]

I hereby retract my original offer, regardless of my original intentions to work through a current issue to make payment. Have fun with your expensive thread.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Good luck getting people to play your game now.

[KeyserSoze]

the one where I said I take making that agreement very seriously and will do everything I can to get it to you ASAP, also appologizing for my own ignorance in having trusted a third party to have sent me BTC in order to remmit to you?

When you take an agreement seriously that means you live up to it. You didn't fulfill your end and so by definition you didn't take it seriously, which has now created another lie on your part. You also did not by any means "do everything I can to get it to you asap" because there exists an exchange where one can simply buy 1BTC and send it to someone else. Yet another lie. SO many... is that 4? I've lost count.

What ever happened to exhausting all means of communication before jumping to conclusions of a scam? Since when is a casual offer with no agreed payment timeline deemed a scam if any kind of delay arrises?  Do you always cease communications and run to commit libel behind a client's back when there are any delays in recieving payment from the client?

I gave you a few days after delivery then asked when you intended to pay, since "a wee bit" was turning into "days". You told me to simply wait. Whether you feel inclined to believe it or not, that's not how business works. Since that was contrary to our agreement of "payment on completion" I decided to wait another few days to see if you'd pay and then let the community know what you were up to.

There was a timeline. Payment on completion. Libel implies I'm not being honest. I'm simply telling the community the truth about our agreement. If you pay I will also tell them that. The merit of your character is totally in your hands. In addition you'll make me look like a fool if you pay, like a whining baby that was wrong about you. All of this is within your control. And yes whenever anyone in my industry runs into a no-pay (or even slow-pay) client we tell each other so none of us does business with that person again, or is at least aware of what we're dealing with.

Despite your self absorbed claims of $80/hour as being a reason to not work on this project any harder than you did, you sir, are not a professional. You have much to learn about dealing with clients. Here's a lesson that only cost you 1BTC: if a client has complications in paying but continues to move towards payment, starting a thread on a forum without either giving them a deadline or even mentioning the thread will ultimately result in losing that client.

I apologize. You are correct that I am self-absorbed. It's a flaw of mine.

In this case, after you came back for changes to the art, I was trying to let you know that my rate is normally $85/hr so for your 1BTC (@$12) payment I wouldn't be able to put endless hours into changes to the art. I was basically taking the job at a loss so I could experiment with providing my service for BTC to see if it was something viable for my company.

While you are correct that I have more learning to do, at the same time I've been providing web development services since 1995 and have learned a thing or two, such as when to cut one's losses. I didn't lose a client so much as experimented with BTC and got scammed for $12 - not much risk to have had the experience I was looking for and was pretty much assuming would happen. The lesson you feel you've taught me is really only serving to make you comfortable with your own theft. In "the real world" of course I don't start a project without a deposit, and it ain't for $12.

After the week of non-payment I decided I was done with my experiment. BTC is about privacy for some and immediacy for others. I give you a quick turnaround on a project, so I expect quick turnaround on payment (however long the BTC takes to process). I'm not going to sit around and wait for you to pay when you're good and ready. We had an agreement, you broke it.

What "move toward payment" was there? I didn't see any. All I saw was a request to just wait and you'd eventually pay. Seriously, you've heard of Mt Gox? Or TradeHill? Or you could have tried to contact someone on the forum for a personal transaction and pointed me to the thread so I could see you were actually making effort?

I hereby retract my original offer, regardless of my original intentions to work through a current issue to make payment. Have fun with your expensive thread.

And so it comes to the conclusion it always does with scammers and/or folks that just don't enjoy a concept of right and wrong. You stole fizzy lifting drinks, and now the ceiling has to be washed and scrubbed so you get NOTHING... wait, that was Willy Wonka. What I meant to say was you either never intended to pay, or can't/won't/don't come up with the money to fulfill your end of the agreement then find a way to be offended enough to not pay at all. It's no different from stealing material goods.

[KeyserSoze]

And what way does it work exactly? I pay him 1BTC now and he deletes the 2 threads he started? Doesn't work that way either oh? Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm not worried about how a bad experience between an unprofessional designer and his slanderous posts will affect a game that is already well liked.

I don't have any intention of hurting your business. I don't even know what game you're talking about. I thought you were going to start a bitcoin-related business in Korea which of course I would have no effect on. Not my intention. My only intention is to let the community know about your theft of my service. I think anyone who cares to know (which has got to be miniscule) does know now and probably most won't give a flying hoot. However it was my only recourse once I determined I wouldn't receive payment.

Once you pay for those services I'm happy to post that you paid, and to post what an ingrate and louse I am for assuming you could be anything other than saintly, but we all know that ain't happening. So at this point it remains that you are a thief. If that somehow has an impact on your game there's really only you to blame, though of course its not my intention that anyone would draw a parallel between your actions and your game or web site or whatever other business you may have.

No matter how much I apologize (which I've already done) or how much bitcoin I were to send him now, the damage is already done. He's now making false claims about my intentions as if they were fact, and to be absolutely honest, it's laughable. Anyone with half a brain will read his drivel and although in the beginning they may think to themselves "Oh my, Bitmole didn't pay!", by the end of it they're going to ask "Wait a minute... so this guy never even contacted bitmole again and went straight to the forums instead? wtf...".

Yeah... Sorry if I'm coming across unapologetic, but he's already burnt that bridge. ^_^

Is it drivel? *sigh* I was hoping I was coming across in an exciting literary fashion.
No one will ever know your intentions. Personally I think in the beginning maybe some part of you was hoping to pay. Your previous posts in the forum seem likable enough to me. But I wonder if when I asked for 1BTC instead of your offered .01BTC (yes you were so interested in fairness that you offered 12 cents for the project) I think it maybe slowly morphed into just not getting around to paying, and then, oh well, what's he gonna do if I NEVER pay?

But no one will know aside from you what your original intentions were. Thankfully in the end it doesn't matter. Bitmole thieved services from me.

[error]

This is an extremely difficult position for me as a Bitcoin applications developer and business owner. You see, Korea doesn't yet have a trade market for BTC yet and that has been a major complication for me in obtaining bitcoin in this country. I may be an American, but that doesn't mean I keep relations in America, or even a bank account there, so utilizing tradehill or Mtgox is not as easy as you might think.

Your assumptions about me have been completely wrong and flat out insulting. You peg me, the person is who is founding the movement to make BTC a common currency across Korea as being a thief. How is that not problematic for both of us? You're attempting to damage my reputation out of your lack of understanding OR interest in the situation at hand.

This IS all my fault though, not yours. Not yours for trusting that a user on a forum you've never met would pay you, but for me in EVER expecting that any users in this forum would ever have the slightest bit of professionalism in delivering their services and dealing with clients in the event there was a misunderstanding or complication.

You see, I, moreso than you, took a great risk in making an agreement with you because I basically gave you the power to run your mouth like a child about what didn't work out for you. Big mistake on my part, I agree. It will certainly never happen again.

My wallet right now is about 0.1BTC for the moment. I have no intention of using your artwork. I had until this morning had all the intentions in the world of handing over 1.0BTC once it accumulated as such (keep in mind my PSU blew up a few days ago and I was waiting until after the weekend to go get an 800W for cheap). But when I say you've burnt bridges, what I mean is that this entire lawless, open transaction is based on two individual's agreeing on specific terms and carrying them out, and you have taken away my ability to carry them out.

I have no defense for my failure to pay 'on time' as you put it, and if I were in your shoes, I'd be pretty upset too, especially if (as most people are these days) I was in any way relying on that payment in order to perform some kind of act or duty elsewhere. The problem is, I made the same mistake you did by counting on an egg that didn't hatch. I was never paid the BTC that I had been promised before making that offer. THAT is my mistake. That mistake won't happen again.

What you NEED to do, is to post a thread giving the details of our transaction. I will even sign the thread with my PGP key and agree that I was unable to come up with payment on time.

What you NEEDN'T do, is make claims to things you not only do not know, but could not know. Not only does it damage your reputation as a professional designer, but it degrades the entire market for which we do business.

To recap,

You are right that I didn't deliver. I've never denied that.

You are wrong for thinking I am a thief, scumbag, liar, etc etc etc. You're just butthurt and jumping to conclusions with your hands successfully placed over your ears, as I've come to learn is typical with newbies on this board.

You are owed 1BTC for a service of providing a private image to me.

You delivered the service, but I was unable to provide the pay in a time frame you decided on in your mind and without discussing with me, or even negotiating, become judge, jury and executioner.

Here's where the situation is not so clear for me, and I'd welcome some advice on how to handle from anyone else with experience working with people like you.

I feel in my heart that I owe you 1 BTC (and have been working to make that a reality, despite any personal complications), yet, you posted the link to MY product on your thread instructing everyone to "abuse BitMole's logo" (not a logo btw, a VERY small part of a much bigger page and thus, not originally worth 1BTC to me).

Given these facts, is there any reason you still deserve 1 BTC? Would me remitting 1 BTC to you solve anything from this point? I'm truly baffled.

If I send 1 BTC, basically I still get SOMETHING obviously, but not the product in which I had originally asked, nor in the manner I asked it (a private, custom image).

You get 1 BTC as a reward for your embarrassingly unprofessional attitude and lack of client relation skills, the existence of which are clearly based on previously existing bias towards doing business online (which explains your lack of patience more than anything I could have done to offend).

This obvious bias can be seen in multiple posts, but most notably:

But no one will know aside from you what your original intentions were. Thankfully in the end it doesn't matter. Bitmole thieved services from me.

It's almost as if you have been validated that you were 'thieved' from, so that you can go on living as if you were right about the 'evil scammers out to get you'.

How do I win here? Is me having a BTC related financial situation supposed to black ball me for the rest of my life in your eyes?

No. I think you mucked this up on your own. I think whatever wrongdoing I had done, albeit it does look pretty bad on my part, will never live up to how horribly you screwed this up for yourself.

On another note, considering I have already admitted to having made a mistake asking for a service before absolutely guaranteeing the funds were there first (a stupid and risky mistake, the kind people make when they expect to get a paycheck and go out and buy a TV), I hereby resign any intentions to ever buy or sell any services directly to any members of the bitcoin.org forum. Again, I'll even PGP sign your thread (so long as it's not full of ridiculously misleading and slanderous garbage).

That's as cordial as I'm going to be able to get with you right now. Balls in your court.

None of this changes the essential fact that you agreed to make a payment, then did not, and then stated that you would not do so. I doubt that anyone on this forum will do business with you after reading this thread in its entirety.

[KeyserSoze]

This is an extremely difficult position for me

Ayep, it is. That sting you're feeling is pride. "That's pride f*cking with you. F*ck pride. Pride only hurts. It never helps. You fight through that sh!t."

You don't want to admit you stole services -- maintaining face is very important. I get it. And so you don't know how to get out of the mess you created. It's very simple.

You don't have to actually admit stealing anything. You pay me 1BTC and I have to go back to all these threads and admit that I was wrong about you, that I spouted off at the mouth about you never intending to pay when in reality you were simply a slow-paying customer instead of a no-paying customer. It'll all be my fault. You save face and I look like a heel. I'll probably have to fend off a bunch of forum attacks from people coming to your defense. I mean how could I have been so callous?

And the art itself? Use it or not. I didn't create the problem, you did. You weren't paying me for a file, you were paying me for my service, my time, my skill. The representation of those things -- the end result -- was a file. I still used my time and skill for you. Anyway, what does it really mean that I posted the link to the art? The day you put your web site up anybody could go grab the image anyway and use it however they want, just as you grabbed the coin and a pic of a mole to make your avatar. Having a link to the art means nothing - I just wanted your attention. Twitter, Facebook and YouTube have links to their logos, and now Bitmole joins their rank!

[Herodes]

KeyserSoze: How long did you wait before putting this on the forum? I agree it's not good that you weren't paid immediately upon completion of the work, however it seems to me that you did not exhaust all possibilities before making this public?

When BitMole was unable to make the payment as promised, did you try to negotiate a new dead line of the payment? Sometimes unforeseen events do happen.

[Smalleyster]

Wow! If I agree to pay you X for a service or good I will have X at my disposal before entering into the agreement.

I am in process of losing a "friend" who after 4 years of polite prodding now claims he does not remember our original agreement. He got the goods, I got nothing more than the promise.

Some people are not worth the air that forms their words that sound like promises to pay.

[casascius]

Wow! If I agree to pay you X for a service or good I will have X at my disposal before entering into the agreement.

I am in process of losing a "friend" who after 4 years of polite prodding now claims he does not remember our original agreement. He got the goods, I got nothing more than the promise.

Some people are not worth the air that forms their words that sound like promises to pay.

You're not familiar with the concept of credit, are you?

My concept of credit is that it has to be paid back. Heretical I know.

[Herodes]

Wow! If I agree to pay you X for a service or good I will have X at my disposal before entering into the agreement.

I am in process of losing a "friend" who after 4 years of polite prodding now claims he does not remember our original agreement. He got the goods, I got nothing more than the promise.

Some people are not worth the air that forms their words that sound like promises to pay.

I have a person that made me a monetary promise 21 years ago. He never went through with it. I am sure he's forgotten all about it now. I am toying with the idea of visiting him and demanding my money. In fact we made a bet, and he lost it, and promptly when he lost he said. "Hah, I never promised you WHEN I will pay you". I never forgot that. Lol. Sometime, somewhere I will meet him again, and I will tell him, do you remember when..

[Anonymous]

Probably shouldnt have used bitcoin for this transaction but ripplepay.

bitcoin!=credit which is where ripple comes in.

[casascius]

I'd soon rather pay a complete stranger 10 BTC before I ever paid him 0.01BTC now.

As a complete stranger, I'll accept your offer.  You can send the 10 BTC to 1BowSerbsenLBELbwR5aZE1aqy7ooGCydT

[fabianhjr]

Probably shouldnt have used bitcoin for this transaction but ripplepay.

bitcoin!=credit which is where ripple comes in.

That is a neat idea, however I find the current implementation missing. :/ Maybe it can be decentralized like TorChat/F2F networks.

@Scammer a.k.a BitMole: Chill off, please. You paid for a 14 buck job. You got a 14 buck art and service. Normally you would pay up front as KeyserSoze pointed out.
The only thing you must do, rather than talk around it, is to pay. It wouldn't be beneficial at all to continue this showoff.
Also, as a complete stranger I also have an address.

@KeyserSoze: Hey, I hope this won't turn you around and make you refuse Bitcoin payment. My advice would be to do as any other payment method, ask up front, and insure you are not getting screwed. So just act as if you are getting cash from an unkown person. Good luck with your company.

[cuddlefish]

Damn. I was interested in BitFu... deposited 1 BTC and all. Not anymore. Not supporting you, BitMole.

I've withdrawn that 1 BTC, and given it to KeyserSoze. You deserve it more than BitMole does.

[Smalleyster]

Wow! If I agree to pay you X for a service or good I will have X at my disposal before entering into the agreement.

I am in process of losing a "friend" who after 4 years of polite prodding now claims he does not remember our original agreement. He got the goods, I got nothing more than the promise.

Some people are not worth the air that forms their words that sound like promises to pay.

You're not familiar with the concept of credit, are you?

Obviously I am a lot more familiar with the concept of credit that you are. If I were to extend you credit we would have a formal legal contract and you would have to put up collateral, which I would sieze in a heartbeat when (obviously not if) you break the terms of the contract.

Here you made a simple promise to pay as you received a service. You recieved the service and decided not to pay.

That makes you both a liar and a thief.

Your protestations that 1) you might have paid if he did not call you out in public and 2) the service was not worth the 1btc adds the label SCUMBAG EXTRODINAIRE to your resume!

Have a good day.

[KeyserSoze]

KeyserSoze: How long did you wait before putting this on the forum? I agree it's not good that you weren't paid immediately upon completion of the work, however it seems to me that you did not exhaust all possibilities before making this public?

When BitMole was unable to make the payment as promised, did you try to negotiate a new dead line of the payment? Sometimes unforeseen events do happen.

I hear what you're saying. It's all in the thread. It isn't necessarily that I didn't get paid immediately. It's that when I wasn't paid immediately I realized he had been lying about a couple things but I waited a few more days. Why waste time renegotiating with someone who didn't fulfill the first negotiation?

Even if he had originally intended to pay he was going to, given enough time and indignation, convince himself he didn't have to pay. That's the way this scam works. @5 days after I delivered I decided to cut my losses and post to the forum. Then he publicly declared indeed he wouldn't ever pay. So we've established he stole the service.

[KeyserSoze]

My concept of credit is that it has to be paid back. Heretical I know.

...and credit is normally paired with interest... and an an agreement that it is a credit situation one is entering into. Bitmole's "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" attitude is endearing though, just like Wimpy from the Popeye cartoons.

[KeyserSoze]

@KeyserSoze: Hey, I hope this won't turn you around and make you refuse Bitcoin payment. My advice would be to do as any other payment method, ask up front, and insure you are not getting screwed. So just act as if you are getting cash from an unkown person. Good luck with your company.

At this point I think I would probably still consider service for Bitcoin. I mean I was completely aware of my compromised position by providing service without a deposit or escrow agreement. Was just getting my feet wet and got bit.

[KeyserSoze]

Damn. I was interested in BitFu... deposited 1 BTC and all. Not anymore. Not supporting you, BitMole.
I've withdrawn that 1 BTC, and given it to KeyserSoze. You deserve it more than BitMole does.

Yikes, wow, I did receive a BTC. Thank you cuddlefish.
I should point out I'm not looking for hand outs. Just making the community aware of Bitmole's indiscretion.

[Smalleyster]

Damn. I was interested in BitFu... deposited 1 BTC and all. Not anymore. Not supporting you, BitMole.

I've withdrawn that 1 BTC, and given it to KeyserSoze. You deserve it more than BitMole does.

Good on ya!

[error]

Since I apparently have way more energy to argue this than most of you do, and because I know I'm right in not paying OP now for a product that no longer exists as some kind of sick reward for childish impatience, I'm just going to restate my claim each and every time some new English illiterate posts here with a 'you should pay' one liner.

Point of this argument: I'm an honest person who keeps my word. Extenuating circumstances beyond my control caused a delay in payment. Op not only did not bother communicating with me, but jumped to conclusions about my ethics and intentions. He then out of spite gave freely to the public the private works of which he originally was awaiting payment. Case in point: there will be no payment, not for a lack of funds, but for a lack of product. Case closed.

Honest? You claim the product you were delivered suddenly doesn't exist? That's honest? You must be from some other universe. Good luck getting anyone to trust you with anything.

[KeyserSoze]

Since I apparently have way more energy to argue this than most of you do, and because I know I'm right in not paying OP now for a product that no longer exists as some kind of sick reward for childish impatience, I'm just going to restate my claim each and every time some new English illiterate posts here with a 'you should pay' one liner.

Point of this argument: I'm an honest person who keeps my word. Extenuating circumstances beyond my control caused a delay in payment. Op not only did not bother communicating with me, but jumped to conclusions about my ethics and intentions. He then out of spite gave freely to the public the private works of which he originally was awaiting payment. Case in point: there will be no payment, not for a lack of funds, but for a lack of product. Case closed.

Your distorted view of reality is charming. Comparing me, and anyone who has read the facts and agreed, to a child is especially ironic as it is children who share your distortion. I marvel at your ability to continue to sell yourself on your honesty. The fact you can continue to type "I'm an honest person who keeps my word" in the face of your actions is commendable. It shows strength. I'd guess most of us, were we in your shoes, eventually, maybe late at night or when we're alone with our thoughts on the subway to work, might instead be haunted that we were lying to ourselves.

[Smalleyster]

I'm an honest person who keeps my word. Extenuating circumstances beyond my control caused a delay in payment.

If you had any shread of decency you would have alerted him of that supposed condition and this probably would never have happened. You further prove your lack of decency or honesty by continuing your lies and not just paying what you owe.

You must be really doing well when you can't even come up with *one* bitcoin within *five* days.

[x0Jakeyboy0x]

...

None of this changes the essential fact that you agreed to make a payment, then did not, and then stated that you would not do so. I doubt that anyone on this forum will do business with you after reading this thread in its entirety.

I won't take sides here, I admit I have yet to even read through the many voluminous novels of discourse. However I would like to note this forum seems to treat the idea of scamming quite interestingly. Seems that a reputation system could be implemented and be much more effective. Labeling a person a once and for all "SCAMMER" though is pretty condemning to the rest of their actions, might as well ban them.

[BitcoinPorn]

Way too quick to throw the tag of 'scammer' on BitMole, I think his intentions were not to rip off, those tags really should be reserved for the people who go into things where you can tell it was only to rip someone off, I really don't think that was the case here.  To put him on FoodStamp level without giving the chance to make right publicly when all this wrongs were just put out publicly, seems fucked up.

But dear lord, too late lol.

Way random.  That basic coin graphic that Soze did is easily worth $30-40 in the real world, easily, I hope the value or worth in that was never truly in question.

[error]

Way too quick to throw the tag of 'scammer' on BitMole, I think his intentions were not to rip off, those tags really should be reserved for the people who go into things where you can tell it was only to rip someone off, I really don't think that was the case here.  To put him on FoodStamp level without giving the chance to make right publicly when all this wrongs were just put out publicly, seems fucked up.

But dear lord, too late lol.

Way random.  That basic coin graphic that Soze did is easily worth $30-40 in the real world, easily, I hope the value or worth in that was never truly in question.

He HAD the chance to make it right, and publicly stated he refused to pay. Right in this thread! That's why he got the scammer tag.

[BitcoinPorn]

You say it like if I had paid at any point, it would be taken away. We both know no one is paying attention to this until the labeled 'scammer' says something. If I hadn't mentioned ANYTHING and just let this retard bark to himself, I would have been fine. This attention and label is the price i am paying for sticking up for myself and what it right. I don't mind paying it. 

Fuck dude,  make good now.  Fuck the tag, who cares at this point, but be good with god (lol).  Seriously though, he did the work, pay him off, be done with the matter.  If you want to run your site, you need to make this right.  I still think that scammer tag should be reserved for people who went into a situation knowingly trying to rip someone off, which I don't believe you did.   And it sucks there is no reverse for this, a tag for  KeyserSoze for throwing this out publicly without giving you that 'one last chance', but I guess he waited, I have not been in a situation like this, so I guess the only thing was to have that payment for the goods for sure set aside beforehand.   Best of luck and hope this gets resolved, I really like your game set up.

[Maged]

He HAD the chance to make it right, and publicly stated he refused to pay. Right in this thread! That's why he got the scammer tag.

You say it like if I had paid at any point, it would be taken away.

Up until you said that you REFUSED to pay, you would not have been marked as a scammer. Given your otherwise great reputation, I was willing to give you extra time to come up with a payment plan before sending this off to our administrator.

We both know no one is paying attention to this until the labeled 'scammer' says something. If I hadn't mentioned ANYTHING and just let this retard bark to himself, I would have been fine.

Absolutely not. I was following the thread. I was first going to require that the OP PM you about the thread. Then, after a few days, I would PM you myself. If there was still no follow-up from you and you had logged in since I PM'd you, only then would we have marked you as a scammer.

[ottodv]

I am sure another opinion won't be helpful but here it is anyway.

I read both sides of the story, and I can see how both sides think they are right.

On the one hand my impression is that bitmole probably had the intention to pay - honestly I find it hard to imagine that someone like bitmole would purposefully try to scam someone out of 1 BTC. On the other hand I find it strange that someone heavily into bitcoins isn't able to come up with 1 BTC quickly or offer an alternative method of payment.

Seems to me that marking bitmole as a scammer is a just a bit too severe though, to me he doesn't appear to be a real scammer, just someone who had a business disagreement with someone else. This also devalues the scammer tag in my opinion, which should be reserved for real scumbags.

In anycase, I'd suggest the following:

- bitmole pays KeyserSoze 1 BTC
- bitmole loses the scammer tag on the forum (hopefully the admins agree)
- KeyserSoze and bitmole say sorry to each other
- we all move on to better things

And bitmole, is 1 BTC really worth all this fuss, even if you are right? Also you can still use that graphic exclusively, he didn't give the rights away to anyone else. I can certainly understand why you may feel pissed off, but my advice is still to pay and move on to better things.

[kookiekrak]

based on the way bitmole's acting in this thread, i wouldn't be surprised if he refuses to pay someone else for work that they did, just because he isn't able to get the money on time.

scammer tag should stay until he pays.

you asked for the work, you got it. not keyser's problem what you do with it.

[KeyserSoze]

I won't take sides here, I admit I have yet to even read through the many voluminous novels of discourse. However I would like to note this forum seems to treat the idea of scamming quite interestingly. Seems that a reputation system could be implemented and be much more effective. Labeling a person a once and for all "SCAMMER" though is pretty condemning to the rest of their actions, might as well ban them.

I wasn't entirely sure how I felt about the whole ordeal either. All I know is it seems these days the idea of repercussions for one's actions seems almost non-existent. Bitmole lied several times and broke his agreement -- he had at that point apparently never even had a BTC and by his own admission for some reason couldn't buy one on an exchange even though he now says he has thousands of dollars at his disposal. This can only tell me he'd lie again in the future.

Whether it was intentional or tough luck or whatever other excuse you want to come up with, the fact remains he made a promise for money and broke it. There are repercussions. Even if its only a social stigma like the embarrassment of the "scammer" tag. It's not as if there are many options for punishment. And using a simpler reputation scale to rate him as "only somewhat of a scammer" because it was "only" 1BTC probably wouldn't have much affect on him. He's already said he will proudly continue wearing the current full scammer label, though I understand most people labeled as scammer here probably do this as a defense mechanism to assure the rest of us they don't care.

I hold out hope for him still. I do honestly believe he probably had good intentions at the start. Maybe this just makes me a good mark, I don't know.

He seems to be aware his integrity is diminished. The only thing standing in the way of a resolution (which he asked for either in this thread or some other) is his pride. He called me 'butthurt'. While I'm still pooping OK, I think he's pridehurt. He claims he won't pay because there is no longer a product. Obviously since it still exists he's manufactured a reason to cover his pridehurt. He feels in some sick twisted way now that if he pays he's giving in to the social pressure of the community because he feels his reputation can no longer be restored, when in reality paying his debt is the only way to restore honour. It's called "the right thing to do."

So he'll either remain standing on the warped principle that his theft was justified while the community continues reading about it and wondering if they should trust him and/or his endeavors, or he'll do the right thing and come out smelling like a rose. Maybe a 3-day old rose, but still.... I will be the one who becomes the town fool because I didn't wait long enough to be paid. I'll even lobby the moderators to get rid of the scammer tag though I'm a newbie and don't know if that would help or not.

AT this point it couldn't possibly even be about the worth of the 1BTC. I'm rooting for Bitmole to restore his honour. I hold out hope, small as it may be. In any case Bitmole is adamant about not paying his debt and the longer it goes on the less rose-like he's smelling. We can only yammer about it so much. The entire debacle could be restored if he can swallow his pride.

[Maged]

I can't say much since this was sent to me via PM, but BitMole is apparently willing to resolve this. I asked him to post the message he sent me here, so hopefully he will do that.

[fabianhjr]

Well for a time we had a reputation system, however it felt apart because of "hitmen" and "aid yourself" services for Bitcoins.

[Smalleyster]

I can't say much since this was sent to me via PM, but BitMole is apparently willing to resolve this. I asked him to post the message he sent me here, so hopefully he will do that.

That would be nice.

[BitcoinPorn]

Don't overdue it.  Just send him the 1btc you owe him and give me that other half, " I foolishly made a deal without verifying if I had the funds first (-_-;, that you acted irrationally, and that we resolved it." should have been the whole post :p

I feel great pity on this and hope others take the time to remove the emotion from your posts and see how kind of confusing this situation was.

Also, dear lord you hit the nail on the head with the amount of newbies, spreadsheets, "games" and bullshit that persists, sadly though I don't blame all the mods, a lot of these forums is plain and simple "User Error".  I work with nearly no one on the forums past some few I was messaging early on, and I tend to only take people who have projects in development serious (unless within the Bitcoin Discussion or Newbie forums, then it's no hold barred).   I hope you continue to try out other projects

[Smalleyster]

That is a rather unimpressive response.

To the scammed one:
DO NOT GIVE YOUR BANK ACCOUNT NUMBER.

To the still scammer:
PAY THE MAN IN BITCOINS OR LEAVE THIS FORUM
 Hint: the payment address is in his sig

JMHO

[error]

Wait a minute, you didn't pay because you thought nobody in authority was watching? I'm not sure I follow the logic there. I honor my commitments whether third parties are watching me or not. If you really want to be successful with Bitcoin, or with any other business, I highly recommend doing the same. You will find that your reputation is far more powerful than any authority figure.

[Smalleyster]

Wait a minute, you didn't pay because you thought nobody in authority was watching?

I found that part exremely disturbing too.

The more he types the bigger the hole gets.

[BitcoinPorn]

Wait a minute, you didn't pay because you thought nobody in authority was watching? I'm not sure I follow the logic there.

As a spectator on the sides, I read it differently.  "I had felt that the RIGHT thing to do was to defend myself against what seemed to be a bunch of KeyserSoze whiteknighting and an arrogant, irrational and impatient seller."  if I was being mass attacked and there was no mod present yet, I would not give up any BTC either, be realistic, you can't expect someone to be attacked online on a forum and them give up "IRL" money because the masses (no mods) want it?  

Especially with so many mods having their hands in their own Bitcoin related projects (I mean, that should be a rule, no mod can have Bitcoin related projects on the side, that is just the clearest definition of conflict of interest, however since the start it has been like that from what I can tell, so I say nothing).

No matter what, the situation would have never happened if the funds were secure in the first place.

[Smalleyster]

Your lack of command of the English language is revolting.

Your lack of decency is revolting.

[error]

Wait a minute, you didn't pay because you thought nobody in authority was watching? I'm not sure I follow the logic there. I honor my commitments whether third parties are watching me or not. If you really want to be successful with Bitcoin, or with any other business, I highly recommend doing the same. You will find that your reputation is far more powerful than any authority figure.

You continue to see only what you want to see. Your lack of command of the English language is revolting. I didn't pay him because someone needs to teach him a lesson. Now that I know there are people for that job, I will gladly pay him. Authority or someone 'watching me' had nothing to do with it.

Really, you should avoid insulting people. It is not helping your case. At all.

[BitcoinPorn]

Really, you should avoid insulting people. It is not helping your case. At all.

Global Moderator
Hero Member

Oh no.  I have no exit this thread now, it is getting sad

[Smalleyster]

Your lack of command of the English language is revolting.

Your lack of decency is revolting.

I'm sorry, did you think you deserved any?

The man you scammed deserves decency.

[error]

Wait a minute, you didn't pay because you thought nobody in authority was watching? I'm not sure I follow the logic there. I honor my commitments whether third parties are watching me or not. If you really want to be successful with Bitcoin, or with any other business, I highly recommend doing the same. You will find that your reputation is far more powerful than any authority figure.

You continue to see only what you want to see. Your lack of command of the English language is revolting. I didn't pay him because someone needs to teach him a lesson. Now that I know there are people for that job, I will gladly pay him. Authority or someone 'watching me' had nothing to do with it.

Really, you should avoid insulting people. It is not helping your case. At all.

What case would that be? The one where you pretend this is a free for all against me? Since when does a dispute between two individuals take away my right to insult people on their arrogance? If this wasn't just a big free for all where everyone mistakenly thought their opinions were golden and sealed my fate away (lol irl), you'd see a much different attitude.

For this particular case, Maged and KeyserSoze are the only ones that matter in this thread, because A) KeyserSoze is the one who will be working with me to make things right and B) because Maged will be working with me to make things right.

What are you doing to make things right? That's what I thought.

If you make things right in this case, that's one thing. That would be necessary to get the "scammer" tag removed from your account, for starters. But you seem to have little or no concern for your reputation. I am advising you against making mistakes which will harm you in future, and you are free to ignore my advice (so far I have seen nothing but contempt), but you should not be surprised when your actions come back to bite you.

[Smalleyster]

I'll now ignore you.

Damn dood (go ahead insult my use of language now) you must be a pathological liar along with being proven a pompous scammer.

[senbonzakura]

Bitmole:-


I offer interest free loan. If you want 1 BTC , I will send you right now. You can pay me back after 1 week or 2 weeks, after you sort out your payment issues.

[drrussellshane]

BitMole's diggin' a hole.


 

[KeyserSoze]

BitMole's diggin' a hole.
 

lol, too funny...

[trentzb]

It seems that you both are in desperate need of an opinion on this matter. Why else would you continue posting back and forth? When litigants introduce a matter into a courtroom (community) they are looking for a decision/judgement from the perspective of the court. If you intended to resolve this matter between yourselves then you wouldn't have brought it to court and it would have been long since settled.

IANAL but I have stood in front of those guys in black robes too many times to remember, in all cases I was plaintiff. I have never lost a case although I did once withdraw a claim when I learned I was in dishonor due to some fine print I had overlooked. My most memorable win was against the only attorney I ever retained (granted he was fresh out of law school, newly licensed) due to a contract breach. Arbitration he lost, unlimited claims superior he lost, trial de novo he lost and I ended up with a writ of execution against him to deliver to the local sheriff for a till tap.

The most important thing I have learned over the years of involvement in litigating civil matters is that it is ALWAYS about the contract, always, always...until of course a jury gets involved and then emotion enters the equation. Judges/magistrates don't rule on emotion, only juries do.

IMHO, if a US judge was to rule on this matter at this VERY moment and with no further evidence he would rule that Bitmole must pay 1 BTC to KS.

HOWEVER, depending on what exclusivity means to each party there could be an alternate ruling. A judge would attempt to determine what exclusivity means to each party and whether there is evidence of agreement of such.

Assuming exclusivity means that Bitmole receives the artwork at the exclusion of any other party and if Bitmole could evidence his claim of agreement of exclusivity (I could not locate evidence of such) Bitmole would not be required to pay KS 1 BTC after this post on 07-11-11 04:31:48pm. One second prior to that post Bitmole was in dishonor and liable to KS and I believe any judge would rule accordingly.

Further, still assuming exclusivity rights, KS became dishonorable at this post 07-11-11 05:41:35pm by making a claim that Bitmole still owes him.

@Bitmole, provide evidence of agreement of exclusivity or else pay KS 1 BTC.

To both, what does exclusivity mean to you and was there agreement of such?

[Maged]

Bitmole:-


I offer interest free loan. If you want 1 BTC , I will send you right now. You can pay me back after 1 week or 2 weeks, after you sort out your payment issues.

Believe it or not, I so thoroughly examined BitMole's post history before I even posted that I was willing to offer this same deal to him should he have come here to post his side. That changed once he said that he refused to pay altogether.

Being new to bitcoin (but not new to IRC, forums, flaming, etc), I have been on the end of attacks since my very first post here. This community is NOT a friendly community. It's almost as if everyone is sitting around looking for an excuse to blast someone for not knowing something. Someone could argue that that's the case on all forums, but frankly speaking, I don't see any place for it on a forum that exists to spread the knowledge and love of Bitcoin.

This is completely unacceptable. In fact, that's why we made the Newbie forum. We found that it was significantly more damaging to newbies to even allow them to post on the normal forum. Unfortunately, if the moderators started deleting personal attacks, people would start crying "CENS0RSH1P!!11!!" and our mods would be overwhelmed. That being said PLEASE report off-topic personal attacks. ALMOST NOBODY is currently using the "Report to moderator" button, and it's making our job of moderation pretty hard.

My personal respect for bitcoin has only grown stronger since I first signed up here, but my opinion of the community here has only soured. The ridiculous amount of newbies running spreadsheets 'games' and calling them 'services', the 30 second startup sites that were obviously made from freetemplates.com, and the endless onslaught of 'experienced' users, trying to say that bitcoin will not be profitable for exactly the purpose that I am in fact using it for. It's been tough to say the least, and I've seriously considered doing everything I'm doing in bitcoin WITHOUT being in this forum.

We hate it too, but the biggest complaint about Bitcoin right now is the lack of businesses. For the moment, we have to take what we get. I pray for the day that we can actually be afforded to have standards for advertising businesses here.

The ONLY reason I have acted this way is because, as someone new to these forums and basically receiving non-stop bullshit from users here, KeyserSoze basically demonstrated to me a reason to give up.

I agree. KeyserSoze was way out of line. Refusing to PM the person you are publicly accusing when you were explicitly asked to? WHAT?!? KeyserSoze was clearly acting in bad faith.

I had NO idea (and arguably no way of knowing) that any mods were paying attention, and felt that the entire job of A) resolving this issue, B) teaching an impatient seller a lesson, and C) dealing with the repercussions, was completely on my shoulder. Now why would I think that? Because I've spent 10+ years on other forums and IRC where how you act becomes who are you known as, and moderators are seldom involved in anything.

I'm surprised that you got that impression. We have one of the most involved moderation teams that I have ever seen. This should have been obvious as soon as you saw a single thread where a mod nonchalantly posted.

KeyserSoze has had a point from the start. He performed a service for which he was not paid. I am at fault for not paying. There has never been a doubt of that in my mind. The LACK of any presence or communication with any moderators of any sort is what brought me to take things into my own hands and make the claim that I wouldn't be paying.

Any ideas of how this can be improved?

I don't care if KeyserSoze thought I was a life long scammer, or that I am an habitual liar, or whatever else he has fabricated. All I care is that I've done what's right-- and until Maged came in here telling me that he had actually been WATCHING this thread from the beginning and that the scammer tag was not just the whim of some trigger happy mod (which is what I am quite used to where I come from), I had felt that the RIGHT thing to do was to defend myself against what seemed to be a bunch of KeyserSoze whiteknighting and an arrogant, irrational and impatient seller.

And I have the notification emails to prove it.

KeyserSoze: Did anyone message you? DId anyone tell you they were investigating/watching/trying to resolve things?

No, nobody did. We tend to keep a hands-off policy when it comes to conflicts. Everything was posted publicly. The only time that I messaged KeyserSoze was to tell him that I reported you to theymos (the only one who has the ability to add the scammer tag) once you refused to pay. The only reason I didn't say that here is because I don't have the authority to say that you would/wouldn't be marked as a scammer. Looking back, I probably should have threatened it. (although I don't know how happy theymos would be if I did that)


I think I know what we need to do to fix the core issues you explained. I think we need to post some official policies regarding reporting scams, and we need to setup an official Bitcoin court, much like the IRC channel.

[Smalleyster]

Considering a lack of contract iota

Oh uneducated one, the email is a contract. D'oh!

[senbonzakura]

IBB - Islamic Bank of Bitcoin , will offer 1 BTC Interest Free Loan to BitMole to be paid back in 2 weeks, if not possible then extension of 2 more weeks given. Enough time to mine on your card / sort out your problems.

Please post your address so I can send payment immediately. Accepting 1 btc (interest-free) loan means you accept the above contract.

Thank you

[Smalleyster]

I think I know what we need to do to fix the core issues you explained. I think we need to post some official policies regarding reporting scams, and we need to setup an official Bitcoin court, much like the IRC channel.

Great idea!

[Smalleyster]

IBB - Islamic Bank of Bitcoin , will offer 1 BTC Interest Free Loan to BitMole to be paid back in 2 weeks, if not possible then extension of 2 more weeks given. Enough time to mine on your card / sort out your problems.

Please post your address so I can send payment immediately. Accepting 1 btc loan means you accept the above contract.

Thank you

Classic! And classy. lol

[trentzb]

Bitmole:-

I offer interest free loan. If you want 1 BTC , I will send you right now. You can pay me back after 1 week or 2 weeks, after you sort out your payment issues.

I publically accept your offer and request that you state your terms clearly so that I may abide by them in a later provable manner as to clear the ridiculous claims against me being a 'scammer' by the less informed and easy to judge members of this community.

@trentzb: Since you obviously have some experience, is there any advice you might have for taking this loan and paying this situation off?

He is serious about the 0% interest loan and I would encourage you to use it. It is for times like these (quick loan to solve an issue) that the IBB will become useful. I happen to be a shareholder in IBB so I am very familiar with IBB principles. Senbonzakura is the managing officer and is making the offer via IBB (Islamic Bank of Bitcoin) as far as I know. Correct me if I am wrong Senbonzakura.

Taking the loan and paying it off is as simple as common sense and honor. Senbonzakura currently sets the terms which sounds like 2 weeks at 0%. Make sure you understand the terms precisely, take it, resolve the issue with KS and pay back the 1 BTC to IBB and you will begin regaining your honor.

Additional advice for future...clarity in contracts Make sure both you and the other party know exactly what the terms are and perform accordingly. Having a contract in writing is helpful but by no means defines a contract. A written contract is merely evidence of an earlier verbal agreement.

Good luck to you both.

[senbonzakura]

IBB - Islamic Bank of Bitcoin , will offer 1 BTC Interest Free Loan to BitMole to be paid back in 2 weeks, if not possible then extension of 2 more weeks given. Enough time to mine on your card / sort out your problems.

Please post your address so I can send payment immediately. Accepting 1 btc (interest-free) loan means you accept the above contract.

Thank you

1LPKQjnse9s4Xo8BhRzdg55jRh8Yk6goTw

I hereby accept this contract publically and agree to any 'probabation period' for removing the 'scammer' title Theymos might wish to instill until after this loan has been paid off.

Thank you, 1 BTC Loan Sent.

http://blockexplorer.com/address/1LPKQjnse9s4Xo8BhRzdg55jRh8Yk6goTw

[Maged]

Maged: Would it be ridiculous to suggest that there be a formal process of hiring services/etc on this forum? I know that's quite an undertaking, but I wouldn't mind working on the code or whatever else needs to be done. You know, kind of like rent-a-coder or something.

Sadly, it would be ridiculous to suggest that. As I stated, we currently need to have as few hurdles as possible to offer products/services. Maybe at a later point in time.

What we really need is a public template for legally enforcable bitcoin contracts, possibly with (optional, should both parties agree) terms that include Mandatory Binding Arbitration with our Bitcoin Court. It would be great if someone started a bounty for that.

[Smalleyster]

Well well well, I am truly Impressed at the apparent progress here.

Truly hope it is a sign of great things to come.

8^)

[KeyserSoze]

sorry... i had another reply here but so much transpired while I was writing that i didn't want to fan the flames.

[Maged]

I appreciate the hands off policy approach, but in reality when it comes to FUNDS that were promised, it's a little bit of a different story, especially (as I'm sure the legal guy here would back me up on) bitcoin.org can be made responsible in a court of law for some situations that arise from these forums. If I were to sell cocaine here, I doubt bitcoin.org would never be affected in any way, so why would this be any different? It's a community that has moderators. So moderate! (Other anti-police state members might completely disagree with me on this one).

Any post even suggesting selling illegal drugs or directly linking Silk Road will be deleted on sight, no exceptions. We do not allow that stuff on this forum. Note: discussion itself is okay

[Smalleyster]

Should we take bets on:

1) The 1bts will appear in op account

2) The loan is repaid in 2 weeks

2) The loan is repaid in 4 weeks

4) The long winded pompous one throws another couple thousand words at us proclaiming his honor and our lack of same for daring to suggest he should keep his word?

8^)

[KeyserSoze]

Should we take bets on

After all these shenanigans my money would be down on Bitmole paying me as soon as he gets home. The repayment of the bank loan is another monkey though. I think Bitmole's trying to mine his coins so I guess however long it takes him to do that. I think he said he has one GPU currently and another 27 on order. If he doesn't borrow from someone else to pay the bank... maybe 3 weeks? 2.5 if he gets the 27 machines fast enough.

For #4, both Bitmole and I are likely to spout off pomposities by the thousand at any moment. Is that even a word?

[KeyserSoze]

I look forward to the 'humble' elitists here eating crow when I pay you back per your terms and continue to bring bitcoin to larger markets, through the personal development of technologies and products related to bitcoin.

Will you allow me BBQ sauce or must I eat the crow raw?

[Smalleyster]

For #4, both Bitmole and I are likely to spout off pomposities by the thousand at any moment. Is that even a word?

LOL.

Damn things are looking up all over!

Keep it up guys!

[BitcoinPorn]

And then for no reason Vegetta and Jessy King come in!

Royal Rumble!

The winner looks for the title belt, only to see that Foodstamp has gone off with it

[Maged]

And then for no reason Vegetta and Jessy King come in!

HA! You joke, but since I brought up the Newbie forum, Jessy Kang will likely post here shortly 

[trentzb]

IBB - Islamic Bank of Bitcoin , will offer 1 BTC Interest Free Loan to BitMole to be paid back in 2 weeks, if not possible then extension of 2 more weeks given. Enough time to mine on your card / sort out your problems.

Please post your address so I can send payment immediately. Accepting 1 btc (interest-free) loan means you accept the above contract.

Thank you

1LPKQjnse9s4Xo8BhRzdg55jRh8Yk6goTw

I hereby accept this contract publically and agree to any 'probabation period' for removing the 'scammer' title Theymos might wish to instill until after this loan has been paid off.

Thank you, 1 BTC Loan Sent.

http://blockexplorer.com/address/1LPKQjnse9s4Xo8BhRzdg55jRh8Yk6goTw

I should note (and a shameless plug for IBB) that IBB operates based on voluntary donations. Donations are NOT a requirement for a loan and will never be incorporated into terms of a loan. Senbonzakura, correct me if we differ on this.

As I understand, IBB will be formally open for business in the coming weeks and will gradually add additional services such as escrow and maybe now arbitration might be a need that should be on the list of services to add.

[theymos]

I'll remove the scammer status when 1LwicyHMxvmo5WdbWU14ZCsdoJKbHyzKJu gets 1 BTC from BitMole. However, I have no confidence in BitMole's sense of morality, and I will never trade with him.

[Vladimir]

This is simply bizzare...

The facts of the matter as I understand it (correct me if I understood something incorrectly):

1. Bitmole hires KeyserSoze to do some design job with a promise to pay for the service 1 BTC.
2. KeyserSoze does the job and delivers IP (intelectual property) to Bitmole.
3. Bitmole fails to pay on the spot, because as he stated he failed to obtain bitcoins for some reason
4. Bitmole promised to make the payment "soon"
5. KeyserSoze publicly claims that Bitmole is s scammer
6. Bitmole states that KeyserSoze has published libel without good faith attempt to resolve the issue privately
7. Bitmole states that he will not pay now, once things went so sour
8. KeyserSoze releases (Bitmole's now) IP into public domain (and as such either irrevocable terminates the contract with Bitmole or infringes his copyright, probably the later)
9. Theymos or some other moderator or OP labels a bunch of threads with [SCAM] tag and assign a scammer status to Bitmole
10. Theymos blackmails Bitmole into paying 1 BTC
11. Bitmole succumbs to blackmail (even though he potentially has no clean IP anymore).

The questions I have to involved parties are:

KeyserSoze, for how long the payment was delayed before you publicly accused Bitmole of being a scammer and before you release his IP into public domain? What are your damages from this delay?

For all of you: Are you all completely insane? All this bizzare stuff over insignificant delay in payment! Let me break it to you, in the real world payments get paid a bit or more than a bit late all the time! This is very rarely good reason to terminate a contract or call anyone a scammer. Many of my customers pay a bit late. I pay my bills almost habitually a few days late, so are many many other people and businesses. This is not the end of the world!

[Smalleyster]

This is simply bizzare...

The facts of the matter as I understand it (correct me if I understood something incorrectly):

1. Bitmole hires KeyserSoze to do some design job with a promise to pay for the service 1 BTC.
2. KeyserSoze does the job and delivers IP (intelectual property) to Bitmole.
3. Bitmole fails to pay on the spot, because as he stated he failed to obtain bitcoins for some reason
4. Bitmole promised to make the payment "soon"
5. KeyserSoze publicly claims that Bitmole is s scammer
6. Bitmole states that KeyserSoze has published libel without good faith attempt to resolve the issue privately
7. Bitmole states that he will not pay now, once things went so sour
8. KeyserSoze releases (Bitmole's now) IP into public domain (and as such either irrevocable terminates the contract with Bitmole or infringes his copyright, probably the later)
9. Theymos or some other moderator or OP labels a bunch of threads with [SCAM] tag and assign a scammer status to Bitmole
10. Theymos blackmails Bitmole into paying 1 BTC
11. Bitmole succumbs to blackmail (even though he potentially has no clean IP anymore).

The questions I have to involved parties are:

KeyserSoze, for how long the payment was delayed before you publicly accused Bitmole of being a scammer and before you release his IP into public domain? What are your damages from this delay?

For all of you: Are you all completely insane? All this bizzare stuff over insignificant delay in payment! Let me break it to you, in the real world payments get paid a bit or more than a bit late all the time! This is very rarely good reason to terminate a contract or call anyone a scammer. Many of my customers pay a bit late. I pay my bills almost habitually a few days late, so are many many other people and businesses. This is not the end of the world!

Oh my God, a human being on this forum! Here I thought they were all robots programmed to get me. 

Vlad is a robot, programmed to be absurd.

8^)

[Smalleyster]

8. KeyserSoze releases (Bitmole's now) IP into public domain (and as such either irrevocable terminates the contract with Bitmole or infringes his copyright, probably the later)

Patently absurd.

Displaying an image in public in no way shape or form "infringes his copyright".

We so far have not seen the PM's that comprise the contract, but I highly doubt that it contains either secrecy or transfer of copyright clauses.

If I perform work on your spec, *I* own the product, unless and until you pay me in *full*.

[Vladimir]

Smalleyster,

are you familiar with "either ... or ..." grammar in English and it's meaning?

1. He has not just displayed but gave license to anyone to do with it whatever.
2. Transfer of title on IP is more complicated than just timing of payment (particularly in absence of written contract), and it is where either ... or ... thing comes in play.
3. They proceeded after that with further demands of payment.

Now who is absurd here?

>Displaying an image in public in no way shape or form "infringes his copyright".

It might, particularly in combination with "you can use it or abuse it how you want" kind of license.

>We so far have not seen the PM's that comprise the contract, but I highly doubt that it contains either secrecy or transfer of copyright clauses.

Sure, but therefore, implied terms are assumed, and these are different in different jurisdictions and as such not so black and white as you seem to think.

Anyway, neither of your points makes this case any less bizarre.

The key is that it seems that KeyserSoze went on with potentially libellous allegations over probably less than 0.01$ in damages. Deficit of common sense is the diagnosis here.

Hey, I can be wrong on some points here, but it is still bizarre.

Smalleyster, instead of personal attacks over some nitpicked and highly arguable points you could be more constructive (but that is not that easy apparently).

[Newton]

Not sure why I feel like commenting but...  I'm going to have vote on bitmoles side on this one.

This is a minor infraction (late payment of a small invoice) followed by a major infraction (far too large, and far too early public campaign of libel)

The guy is in Korea...  It took me weeks to get ahold of my first bitcoin in Canada.  He thought he could get the coin easier, turns out he was wrong.  Tiny error.

I really think the mods are way out of line to join the lynch mob on this.

[KeyserSoze]

I'll remove the scammer status when 1LwicyHMxvmo5WdbWU14ZCsdoJKbHyzKJu gets 1 BTC from BitMole. However, I have no confidence in BitMole's sense of morality, and I will never trade with him.

I did receive the 1BTC. Thank you Bitmole and the bank that loaned Bitmole the BTC.

[KeyserSoze]

This is simply bizzare...

On this matter you are correct.

The facts of the matter as I understand it (correct me if I understood something incorrectly):
1. Bitmole hires KeyserSoze to do some design job with a promise to pay for the service 1 BTC.
2. KeyserSoze does the job and delivers IP (intelectual property) to Bitmole.
3. Bitmole fails to pay on the spot, because as he stated he failed to obtain bitcoins for some reason
4. Bitmole promised to make the payment "soon"
5. KeyserSoze publicly claims that Bitmole is s scammer
6. Bitmole states that KeyserSoze has published libel without good faith attempt to resolve the issue privately
7. Bitmole states that he will not pay now, once things went so sour
8. KeyserSoze releases (Bitmole's now) IP into public domain (and as such either irrevocable terminates the contract with Bitmole or infringes his copyright, probably the later)
9. Theymos or some other moderator or OP labels a bunch of threads with [SCAM] tag and assign a scammer status to Bitmole
10. Theymos blackmails Bitmole into paying 1 BTC
11. Bitmole succumbs to blackmail (even though he potentially has no clean IP anymore).

You kind of slid from facts into interpretation. Meanwhile I have my interpretation. Bitmole has his. Interestingly, everyone has an interpretation. But those aren't the same as facts.

If you actually have interest in what's happening (and I can imagine this must be boring for those not involved) then it is in the thread that we had an agreement, I didn't interpret it the agreement as being lived up to, Bitmole interpreted he was working on living up to it. It got a little crazy from there. However Bitmole and I are currently working on resolving it so I'll leave it at that.

KeyserSoze, for how long the payment was delayed before you publicly accused Bitmole of being a scammer and before you release his IP into public domain? What are your damages from this delay?

You're asking the wrong question as far as I'm concerned. I do wonder if this is a cultural difference in how business agreements are interpreted. I will say I acted more quickly in this matter than I would under normal circumstances, but the bitcoin community isn't your average business culture. Some folks are working toward it but for now it is still shark infested waters.

For all of you: Are you all completely insane? All this bizzare stuff over insignificant delay in payment! Let me break it to you, in the real world payments get paid a bit or more than a bit late all the time! This is very rarely good reason to terminate a contract or call anyone a scammer. Many of my customers pay a bit late. I pay my bills almost habitually a few days late, so are many many other people and businesses. This is not the end of the world!

Delays in payment are insignificant to you. I am not a bank. I am not wealthy. And principles like honouring one's word matter to me. Things like paying one's debt on time matters to me. Slow-pay clients almost always eventually turn into no-pay clients.

For my business payments are rarely late. If they do become late then they don't stay my clients for too long. My company is too small to invest in staff to constantly call, email, badger and followup on deadbeats. My cash flow is small enough that any late client has an impact.

I suppose if I had a few employees and larger amount of projects I'd have to learn to live with some delays since you are probably correct that it's commonplace for people/companies to pay late. I know the credit card companies live for people like that. They want you to pay late so they can pile on fees. I don't have the infrastructure to deal with all that silliness. Right now I'm fortunate enough to be able to just refuse to work with delinquent firms.

[Newton]

Bitmole:  Great game, great contribution to the bitcoin community.  To be able to challenge other internet users using micro bets in an online game, and do it instantly and easily without risking credit card, etc... this is fundamentally new on earth, and exciting.

Your contribution to the community is significant.

Further, thank you for doing attempting to trade using bitcoin in order to build your business.  This also is significant!


I would do btc business with you any day.

[KeyserSoze]

8. KeyserSoze releases (Bitmole's now) IP into public domain (and as such either irrevocable terminates the contract with Bitmole or infringes his copyright, probably the later)

Patently absurd.

Displaying an image in public in no way shape or form "infringes his copyright".

We so far have not seen the PM's that comprise the contract, but I highly doubt that it contains either secrecy or transfer of copyright clauses.

If I perform work on your spec, *I* own the product, unless and until you pay me in *full*.

Copyright isn't well understood, especially in this age where people grab images and content willy-nilly that they "found" on the internet then claim is theirs. The fact in the U.S. is all forms of copyright are owned by the creator until they are expressly given/sold unless there was some agreement such as "work for hire". Then there's a period afterward when they become public domain, of which I'm not certain, something like death plus 30 years or some such.

The fact is even though I was under contract to create an image for 1BTC, no where in the contract is it expressly written that any part of the copyright would transfer. One cannot imply granting of copyright just because the service was purchased. Copyright must be expressly granted by the originator. In effect I still own all aspects of the copyright.

This is where it gets pretty sticky. The average person feels if they pay for you to create art that it is theirs to do with as they wish. Not necessarily true!

In day to day life, of course, its not much of an issue. When I create art I expect I am giving the art to the client to use as they see fit and I retain the right to display it in my portfolio or other marketing purposes. Almost no one makes any copyright claim because they do not understand they should be doing so. Mostly it works out fine.

Here's something really wild about copyright: it has infinite divisibility. One can sell aspects of one's copyright. For example, when I was writing horror fiction and/or art, the contracts would be very specific such as "First North American right of publication", etc. In this case the magazine was purchasing the rights to be the first in North America to publish it, essentially not only agreeing they had the right to publish but also that I had not published it elsewhere previously in North America. You can continue to divide it up. I have also sold rights for "republication in North America", etc.

Generally if there's a contract that I've developed I do expressly grant all copyright only upon final, full payment while reserving the right for me to use it on my web site or any other of my company' marketing materials. My agreement in the case of Bitmole's art was pretty loosey-goosey and did not expressly grant any copyright.

[KeyserSoze]

everything fine now, he got 3 BTC instead of 1 btc and you got scammer label lifted.

For the record, it was 2. Cuddlefish sent 1 and Bitmole sent the one you loaned him. I will contact cuddlefish to see if he wants his 1 BTC back that I did not ask for but was given out of his kindness. Or maybe he gave it so Bitmole and I would just shutup!  

[BitcoinPorn]

Or maybe he gave it so Bitmole and I would just shutup! 

*starts stalking cuddlefish*

[KeyserSoze]

I await op's response to payment and apology.

I did receive payment. We're still negotiating the finality of this episode.

[BitcoinPorn]

I await op's response to payment and apology.

I did receive payment. We're still negotiating the finality of this episode.

I swear to Christ I cannot wait for the shocking conclusion!

BitMole - Keyser

KeyserSoze - Yes you piece of shit cunt

BitMole - Fuck you

KeyserSoze - No Fuck you!

BitMole - ...

BitMole - I'm pregnant.

[Vladimir]

There surely are cultural and regional differences. But I must tell you this.

If, here in UK, I, for example, delay payment of 10£ utility bill by a few days (works just as well for any bill) and the utility company disconnects my electricity and sues me and publishes in a paper that I am a scammer and than tells me that they will retract such a statement as soon as I pay. What do you think would happen? Yep that is right, their lawsuit would be thrown away and laughed at in the court and than they would have to come up with some good money for defamation lawsuit settlement (no sane legal bod would want to defend this in court) and legal bills. Plus a criminal and/or civil case regarding blackmail and extortion would be a distinct possibility.

The example above is rather extreme and blown out of proportion, but hopefully it does illustrate my point.

I thought that Bitmole have been dealt with rather very unjustly, this is why I have chosen to comment on this thread.

Do not expect any design contracts from me (or anyone with a modicum of biz acumen who read this thread, for that matter).

[Smalleyster]

Congratulations to all three of you.

I eagerly await the successful conclusion of this ordeal with the re-payment of the loan.

[ottodv]

[Scam Alert] Bitmole scammed services

The title of this thread should be changed.

[KeyserSoze]

There surely are cultural and regional differences. But I must tell you this.

If, here in UK, I, for example, delay payment of 10£ utility bill by a few days (works just as well for any bill) and the utility company disconnects my electricity and sues me and publishes in a paper that I am a scammer and than tells me that they will retract such a statement as soon as I pay. What do you think would happen? Yep that is right, their lawsuit would be thrown away and laughed at in the court and than they would have to come up with some good money for defamation lawsuit settlement (no sane legal bod would want to defend this in court) and legal bills. Plus a criminal and/or civil case regarding blackmail and extortion would be a distinct possibility.

The example above is rather extreme and blown out of proportion, but hopefully it does illustrate my point.

I thought that Bitmole have been dealt with rather very unjustly, this is why I have chosen to comment on this thread.

Do not expect any design contracts from me (or anyone with a modicum of biz acumen who read this thread, for that matter).

I hear you. Thanks for your candid response. It's nice to read other viewpoints. While you've written me off, I have seen your posts elsewhere and they seem fairly level-headed even if I haven't always agreed. Thanks for your input and good luck with your mining business.

[casascius]

If, here in UK, I, for example, delay payment of 10£ utility bill by a few days (works just as well for any bill) and the utility company disconnects my electricity and sues me and publishes in a paper that I am a scammer and than tells me that they will retract such a statement as soon as I pay. What do you think would happen?

How so?  Is truth not a defense to defamation in the UK?  If they sue you, is a lawsuit not a public record in the UK?

If instead of delaying your utility payment, you openly assert that you intend to not pay for the electricity you admit you used... perhaps the power wasn't as "clean" as you thought it should be, and you felt that entitled you to consume it for free.  Would it still be exactly the same defamation?

[Anonymous]

The thread shows the need for a dispute resolution company instead of airing dirty linen in public and the hint of blackmail.

Signed contracts and arbitration would go a long way to avoiding hasty decisions.

[casascius]

3) Bitmole communicated intentions to pay, but due to a difficulty, a bit late
4) KeyserSoze jumped to conclusions and committed libel as well as released the product to the public with a statement to 'abuse it'.

Here is the part I have a problem with.  When it is 1 BTC, I don't buy the excuse that the person can't afford to pay me.  If they need a week to come up with 1 BTC or equivalent, I would feel rightful in thinking I was scammed as well.  Who doesn't have $14 and hires out art in good faith?

Anyway, if someone owed me 1 BTC, any of the following responses would have been acceptable to me.

"I am having trouble coming up with 1 BTC.  Can I pay you with PayPal USD instead?"

"I am having trouble coming up with 1 BTC.  I thought I would have mined it by now, but it didn't work out.  Can you give me 6 days?  That is how long it will take me to mine it at current difficulty.  I just sent you the 0.15 BTC I have mined so far."

"I am having trouble coming up with 1 BTC.  Look, I am broke, and made a misjudgment in my ability to pay.  I still owe you and will pay you as soon as I can.  I am giving you a lifetime unlimited (or credit or whatever) account in the game I'm using this artwork for.  In the meantime, can I do anything for you, like advertise your services in my signature line?"

[BitcoinPorn]

I don't buy the excuse that the person can't afford to pay me.  If they need a week to come up with 1 BTC or equivalent, I would feel rightful in thinking I was scammed as well.  Who doesn't have $14 and hires out art in good faith?

I would say the majority of users on this forum.

[casascius]

I don't buy the excuse that the person can't afford to pay me.  If they need a week to come up with 1 BTC or equivalent, I would feel rightful in thinking I was scammed as well.  Who doesn't have $14 and hires out art in good faith?

I would say the majority of users on this forum.

I get not having $14, but the majority of users on this forum are looking to buy art services?

[casascius]

Are you so rich in BTC that you forgot that its not normal currency? My job does not pay me in BTC-- yet ^_-

This sort of sarcasm would lead me to believe you were a scammer if I were in his shoes.

[BitcoinPorn]

This sort of sarcasm would lead me to believe you were a scammer if I were in his shoes.

I have learned that people who code and program are some of the most curt people, anywhere.  I use the word curt even though I think I mean rude.   Ignoring this thread, you can find people being quite sharp, witty, and assholes to each other at every chance they get.   I think some kind of pissing contest is going on but I'm not sure the prize other than to scare away newcomers and to never solve any issues (I am really not talking about this thread with this btw, this is epic shit here people being mature and resolving something, half of me wants everyone to be happy about agreements being made and etc, but the other half is like 'oh wait, this is how people should act')

[KeyserSoze]

This sort of sarcasm would lead me to believe you were a scammer if I were in his shoes.

I have learned that people who code and program are some of the most curt people, anywhere.  I use the word curt even though I think I mean rude.   Ignoring this thread, you can find people being quite sharp, witty, and assholes to each other at every chance they get.   I think some kind of pissing contest is going on but I'm not sure the prize other than to scare away newcomers and to never solve any issues (I am really not talking about this thread with this btw, this is epic shit here people being mature and resolving something, half of me wants everyone to be happy about agreements being made and etc, but the other half is like 'oh wait, this is how people should act')

Many people involved in bitcoin are "computer people" because that kind of comfort with technology is pretty much a necessity to get involved with it. "Computer people" are well known to not have the best social skills. So one could safely assume this forum would be chock full o' folks lacking social grace.

[BitcoinPorn]

Many people involved in bitcoin are "computer people" because that kind of comfort with technology is pretty much a necessity to get involved with it. "Computer people" are well known to not have the best social skills. So one could safely assume this forum would be chock full o' folks lacking social grace.

Safe to assume, I think it is just forgotten in the heat of moments (and honestly doesn't matter, people should be understanding of each other, but at a certain point once you break respect with someone, it's over for the most part, glad to see it gone down to 'meh' levels here).

This thread sucks btw everyone, because I was elsewhere online just minutes ago, this stupid crap came up, and I felt I should copy and paste it lol

1. Be Impeccable With Your Word
Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

2. Don’t Take Anything Personally
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

3. Don’t Make Assumptions
Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

4. Always Do Your Best
Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.”

[Vladimir]

If, here in UK, I, for example, delay payment of 10£ utility bill by a few days (works just as well for any bill) and the utility company disconnects my electricity and sues me and publishes in a paper that I am a scammer and than tells me that they will retract such a statement as soon as I pay. What do you think would happen?

How so?  Is truth not a defense to defamation in the UK?  If they sue you, is a lawsuit not a public record in the UK?

If instead of delaying your utility payment, you openly assert that you intend to not pay for the electricity you admit you used... perhaps the power wasn't as "clean" as you thought it should be, and you felt that entitled you to consume it for free.  Would it still be exactly the same defamation?

We are getting into a rather too fine details (for this thread) and in foreign for you jurisdiction. But let me assure you that my points are fairly accurate from legal point of view and while IANAL I know what I am talking about (with plenty of practical experience of litigation particularly in contract law, consumer credit and housing areas).

The only thing they would be able to sue me in my scenario is 10£ plus 0.01£ or so in interest and this would be thrown out on technicalities (such as very relevant for us failure to follow pre-action protocol 'letter before action' etc...). Actually, before it get's thrown out the judge would give parties a chance to settle the matter amicably. However, in the described scenario my reasonable counterclaim would worth tens of thousands of pounds and at the settlement negotiation we would be discussing how much they pay me.

Of course, the scenario in original example is unlikely to happen because utility companies kind of do know what they are doing (most of the time) and they would not act along KeyserSoze's lines in the first place.


I do not want to go into further details here...

Anyway, seems like parties are close to settling this matter amicably, good for you.

Next time before jumping on anyone over some petty (or not) reason here or IRL do communicate, people, please.

[bbit]

this might be the thread of the year so classic!

[dood001]

let's say you are making 0.26 BTC per day (0.52 / 2).

0.26 * 30 = 7.8 BTC

7.8 BTC * US$14.00 = US$109.20 per month

[senbonzakura]

UPDATE: Finally earned 1 BTC through mining (+1 triplemining and 5850).

Sending 1 BTC to senbonzakura.

Payment received thank you, contract fulfilled. Thank you for using IBB's Interest FREE Loan. Hope you can use our service again in the future.

 

[BitcoinPorn]

+1 Witness

lol

[Smalleyster]

Please do not remove this thread. Best geek soap opera in years! 8^)

Congrats to all involved!

[KeyserSoze]

I formally request that due to the significance of this resolution and its significance to the reputation of both the OP and myself, that this thread not be removed until (7) days from today, giving plenty of time for all interested parties to become aware of the resolution of this dispute.

As I stated earlier I'm not much for censorship, however due to terms of our resolution I agree and request the thread be locked, deleted, moved or whatever. Glad to hear the bank loan was repaid and that Bitmole put such effort into paying it as quickly as possible. And again thanks to IBB for stepping in to help.

In further effort to keep the thread a classic I'd like to go ahead and use "there, their and they're" incorrectly while blaming aliens for this thread's existence by saying it was there fault over they're and there gonna pay for it. And also I'd like to go ahead and misspell another word while hoping not to loose your attention. Finally I'd like to follow it up, as many of these occurrences are, with the common forum member's plea to "stop correcting me, old man... you knew what I meant."

No... no, I didn't. Not until I read it 3 times.

[Vladimir]

great stuff,  common sense wins!

now imagine that all this could have been done with a few private emails...

[Smalleyster]

great stuff,  common sense wins!

now imagine that all this could have been done with a few private emails...

But then it wouldn't have been any fun! 8^)

[casascius]

I vote against removing the thread, if that counts for anything.  It has value to the community as proof that seemingly irreconcilable disputes can be resolved.