[Dispute resolved and sunshine and beams and all that]

[KeyserSoze]

sorry... i had another reply here but so much transpired while I was writing that i didn't want to fan the flames.

[1714494474]

1714494474

[1714494474]

1714494474

[1714494474]

1714494474

[1714494474]

1714494474

[Maged]

I appreciate the hands off policy approach, but in reality when it comes to FUNDS that were promised, it's a little bit of a different story, especially (as I'm sure the legal guy here would back me up on) bitcoin.org can be made responsible in a court of law for some situations that arise from these forums. If I were to sell cocaine here, I doubt bitcoin.org would never be affected in any way, so why would this be any different? It's a community that has moderators. So moderate! (Other anti-police state members might completely disagree with me on this one).

Any post even suggesting selling illegal drugs or directly linking Silk Road will be deleted on sight, no exceptions. We do not allow that stuff on this forum. Note: discussion itself is okay

[Smalleyster]

Should we take bets on:

1) The 1bts will appear in op account

2) The loan is repaid in 2 weeks

2) The loan is repaid in 4 weeks

4) The long winded pompous one throws another couple thousand words at us proclaiming his honor and our lack of same for daring to suggest he should keep his word?

8^)

[KeyserSoze]

Should we take bets on

After all these shenanigans my money would be down on Bitmole paying me as soon as he gets home. The repayment of the bank loan is another monkey though. I think Bitmole's trying to mine his coins so I guess however long it takes him to do that. I think he said he has one GPU currently and another 27 on order. If he doesn't borrow from someone else to pay the bank... maybe 3 weeks? 2.5 if he gets the 27 machines fast enough.

For #4, both Bitmole and I are likely to spout off pomposities by the thousand at any moment. Is that even a word?

[KeyserSoze]

I look forward to the 'humble' elitists here eating crow when I pay you back per your terms and continue to bring bitcoin to larger markets, through the personal development of technologies and products related to bitcoin.

Will you allow me BBQ sauce or must I eat the crow raw?

[Smalleyster]

For #4, both Bitmole and I are likely to spout off pomposities by the thousand at any moment. Is that even a word?

LOL.

Damn things are looking up all over!

Keep it up guys!

[BitcoinPorn]

And then for no reason Vegetta and Jessy King come in!

Royal Rumble!

The winner looks for the title belt, only to see that Foodstamp has gone off with it

[Maged]

And then for no reason Vegetta and Jessy King come in!

HA! You joke, but since I brought up the Newbie forum, Jessy Kang will likely post here shortly 

[trentzb]

IBB - Islamic Bank of Bitcoin , will offer 1 BTC Interest Free Loan to BitMole to be paid back in 2 weeks, if not possible then extension of 2 more weeks given. Enough time to mine on your card / sort out your problems.

Please post your address so I can send payment immediately. Accepting 1 btc (interest-free) loan means you accept the above contract.

Thank you

1LPKQjnse9s4Xo8BhRzdg55jRh8Yk6goTw

I hereby accept this contract publically and agree to any 'probabation period' for removing the 'scammer' title Theymos might wish to instill until after this loan has been paid off.

Thank you, 1 BTC Loan Sent.

http://blockexplorer.com/address/1LPKQjnse9s4Xo8BhRzdg55jRh8Yk6goTw

I should note (and a shameless plug for IBB) that IBB operates based on voluntary donations. Donations are NOT a requirement for a loan and will never be incorporated into terms of a loan. Senbonzakura, correct me if we differ on this.

As I understand, IBB will be formally open for business in the coming weeks and will gradually add additional services such as escrow and maybe now arbitration might be a need that should be on the list of services to add.

[theymos]

I'll remove the scammer status when 1LwicyHMxvmo5WdbWU14ZCsdoJKbHyzKJu gets 1 BTC from BitMole. However, I have no confidence in BitMole's sense of morality, and I will never trade with him.

[Vladimir]

This is simply bizzare...

The facts of the matter as I understand it (correct me if I understood something incorrectly):

1. Bitmole hires KeyserSoze to do some design job with a promise to pay for the service 1 BTC.
2. KeyserSoze does the job and delivers IP (intelectual property) to Bitmole.
3. Bitmole fails to pay on the spot, because as he stated he failed to obtain bitcoins for some reason
4. Bitmole promised to make the payment "soon"
5. KeyserSoze publicly claims that Bitmole is s scammer
6. Bitmole states that KeyserSoze has published libel without good faith attempt to resolve the issue privately
7. Bitmole states that he will not pay now, once things went so sour
8. KeyserSoze releases (Bitmole's now) IP into public domain (and as such either irrevocable terminates the contract with Bitmole or infringes his copyright, probably the later)
9. Theymos or some other moderator or OP labels a bunch of threads with [SCAM] tag and assign a scammer status to Bitmole
10. Theymos blackmails Bitmole into paying 1 BTC
11. Bitmole succumbs to blackmail (even though he potentially has no clean IP anymore).

The questions I have to involved parties are:

KeyserSoze, for how long the payment was delayed before you publicly accused Bitmole of being a scammer and before you release his IP into public domain? What are your damages from this delay?

For all of you: Are you all completely insane? All this bizzare stuff over insignificant delay in payment! Let me break it to you, in the real world payments get paid a bit or more than a bit late all the time! This is very rarely good reason to terminate a contract or call anyone a scammer. Many of my customers pay a bit late. I pay my bills almost habitually a few days late, so are many many other people and businesses. This is not the end of the world!

[Smalleyster]

This is simply bizzare...

The facts of the matter as I understand it (correct me if I understood something incorrectly):

1. Bitmole hires KeyserSoze to do some design job with a promise to pay for the service 1 BTC.
2. KeyserSoze does the job and delivers IP (intelectual property) to Bitmole.
3. Bitmole fails to pay on the spot, because as he stated he failed to obtain bitcoins for some reason
4. Bitmole promised to make the payment "soon"
5. KeyserSoze publicly claims that Bitmole is s scammer
6. Bitmole states that KeyserSoze has published libel without good faith attempt to resolve the issue privately
7. Bitmole states that he will not pay now, once things went so sour
8. KeyserSoze releases (Bitmole's now) IP into public domain (and as such either irrevocable terminates the contract with Bitmole or infringes his copyright, probably the later)
9. Theymos or some other moderator or OP labels a bunch of threads with [SCAM] tag and assign a scammer status to Bitmole
10. Theymos blackmails Bitmole into paying 1 BTC
11. Bitmole succumbs to blackmail (even though he potentially has no clean IP anymore).

The questions I have to involved parties are:

KeyserSoze, for how long the payment was delayed before you publicly accused Bitmole of being a scammer and before you release his IP into public domain? What are your damages from this delay?

For all of you: Are you all completely insane? All this bizzare stuff over insignificant delay in payment! Let me break it to you, in the real world payments get paid a bit or more than a bit late all the time! This is very rarely good reason to terminate a contract or call anyone a scammer. Many of my customers pay a bit late. I pay my bills almost habitually a few days late, so are many many other people and businesses. This is not the end of the world!

Oh my God, a human being on this forum! Here I thought they were all robots programmed to get me. 

Vlad is a robot, programmed to be absurd.

8^)

[Smalleyster]

8. KeyserSoze releases (Bitmole's now) IP into public domain (and as such either irrevocable terminates the contract with Bitmole or infringes his copyright, probably the later)

Patently absurd.

Displaying an image in public in no way shape or form "infringes his copyright".

We so far have not seen the PM's that comprise the contract, but I highly doubt that it contains either secrecy or transfer of copyright clauses.

If I perform work on your spec, *I* own the product, unless and until you pay me in *full*.

[Vladimir]

Smalleyster,

are you familiar with "either ... or ..." grammar in English and it's meaning?

1. He has not just displayed but gave license to anyone to do with it whatever.
2. Transfer of title on IP is more complicated than just timing of payment (particularly in absence of written contract), and it is where either ... or ... thing comes in play.
3. They proceeded after that with further demands of payment.

Now who is absurd here?

>Displaying an image in public in no way shape or form "infringes his copyright".

It might, particularly in combination with "you can use it or abuse it how you want" kind of license.

>We so far have not seen the PM's that comprise the contract, but I highly doubt that it contains either secrecy or transfer of copyright clauses.

Sure, but therefore, implied terms are assumed, and these are different in different jurisdictions and as such not so black and white as you seem to think.

Anyway, neither of your points makes this case any less bizarre.

The key is that it seems that KeyserSoze went on with potentially libellous allegations over probably less than 0.01$ in damages. Deficit of common sense is the diagnosis here.

Hey, I can be wrong on some points here, but it is still bizarre.

Smalleyster, instead of personal attacks over some nitpicked and highly arguable points you could be more constructive (but that is not that easy apparently).

[Newton]

Not sure why I feel like commenting but...  I'm going to have vote on bitmoles side on this one.

This is a minor infraction (late payment of a small invoice) followed by a major infraction (far too large, and far too early public campaign of libel)

The guy is in Korea...  It took me weeks to get ahold of my first bitcoin in Canada.  He thought he could get the coin easier, turns out he was wrong.  Tiny error.

I really think the mods are way out of line to join the lynch mob on this.

[KeyserSoze]

I'll remove the scammer status when 1LwicyHMxvmo5WdbWU14ZCsdoJKbHyzKJu gets 1 BTC from BitMole. However, I have no confidence in BitMole's sense of morality, and I will never trade with him.

I did receive the 1BTC. Thank you Bitmole and the bank that loaned Bitmole the BTC.

[KeyserSoze]

This is simply bizzare...

On this matter you are correct.

The facts of the matter as I understand it (correct me if I understood something incorrectly):
1. Bitmole hires KeyserSoze to do some design job with a promise to pay for the service 1 BTC.
2. KeyserSoze does the job and delivers IP (intelectual property) to Bitmole.
3. Bitmole fails to pay on the spot, because as he stated he failed to obtain bitcoins for some reason
4. Bitmole promised to make the payment "soon"
5. KeyserSoze publicly claims that Bitmole is s scammer
6. Bitmole states that KeyserSoze has published libel without good faith attempt to resolve the issue privately
7. Bitmole states that he will not pay now, once things went so sour
8. KeyserSoze releases (Bitmole's now) IP into public domain (and as such either irrevocable terminates the contract with Bitmole or infringes his copyright, probably the later)
9. Theymos or some other moderator or OP labels a bunch of threads with [SCAM] tag and assign a scammer status to Bitmole
10. Theymos blackmails Bitmole into paying 1 BTC
11. Bitmole succumbs to blackmail (even though he potentially has no clean IP anymore).

You kind of slid from facts into interpretation. Meanwhile I have my interpretation. Bitmole has his. Interestingly, everyone has an interpretation. But those aren't the same as facts.

If you actually have interest in what's happening (and I can imagine this must be boring for those not involved) then it is in the thread that we had an agreement, I didn't interpret it the agreement as being lived up to, Bitmole interpreted he was working on living up to it. It got a little crazy from there. However Bitmole and I are currently working on resolving it so I'll leave it at that.

KeyserSoze, for how long the payment was delayed before you publicly accused Bitmole of being a scammer and before you release his IP into public domain? What are your damages from this delay?

You're asking the wrong question as far as I'm concerned. I do wonder if this is a cultural difference in how business agreements are interpreted. I will say I acted more quickly in this matter than I would under normal circumstances, but the bitcoin community isn't your average business culture. Some folks are working toward it but for now it is still shark infested waters.

For all of you: Are you all completely insane? All this bizzare stuff over insignificant delay in payment! Let me break it to you, in the real world payments get paid a bit or more than a bit late all the time! This is very rarely good reason to terminate a contract or call anyone a scammer. Many of my customers pay a bit late. I pay my bills almost habitually a few days late, so are many many other people and businesses. This is not the end of the world!

Delays in payment are insignificant to you. I am not a bank. I am not wealthy. And principles like honouring one's word matter to me. Things like paying one's debt on time matters to me. Slow-pay clients almost always eventually turn into no-pay clients.

For my business payments are rarely late. If they do become late then they don't stay my clients for too long. My company is too small to invest in staff to constantly call, email, badger and followup on deadbeats. My cash flow is small enough that any late client has an impact.

I suppose if I had a few employees and larger amount of projects I'd have to learn to live with some delays since you are probably correct that it's commonplace for people/companies to pay late. I know the credit card companies live for people like that. They want you to pay late so they can pile on fees. I don't have the infrastructure to deal with all that silliness. Right now I'm fortunate enough to be able to just refuse to work with delinquent firms.

[Newton]

Bitmole:  Great game, great contribution to the bitcoin community.  To be able to challenge other internet users using micro bets in an online game, and do it instantly and easily without risking credit card, etc... this is fundamentally new on earth, and exciting.

Your contribution to the community is significant.

Further, thank you for doing attempting to trade using bitcoin in order to build your business.  This also is significant!


I would do btc business with you any day.

[KeyserSoze]

8. KeyserSoze releases (Bitmole's now) IP into public domain (and as such either irrevocable terminates the contract with Bitmole or infringes his copyright, probably the later)

Patently absurd.

Displaying an image in public in no way shape or form "infringes his copyright".

We so far have not seen the PM's that comprise the contract, but I highly doubt that it contains either secrecy or transfer of copyright clauses.

If I perform work on your spec, *I* own the product, unless and until you pay me in *full*.

Copyright isn't well understood, especially in this age where people grab images and content willy-nilly that they "found" on the internet then claim is theirs. The fact in the U.S. is all forms of copyright are owned by the creator until they are expressly given/sold unless there was some agreement such as "work for hire". Then there's a period afterward when they become public domain, of which I'm not certain, something like death plus 30 years or some such.

The fact is even though I was under contract to create an image for 1BTC, no where in the contract is it expressly written that any part of the copyright would transfer. One cannot imply granting of copyright just because the service was purchased. Copyright must be expressly granted by the originator. In effect I still own all aspects of the copyright.

This is where it gets pretty sticky. The average person feels if they pay for you to create art that it is theirs to do with as they wish. Not necessarily true!

In day to day life, of course, its not much of an issue. When I create art I expect I am giving the art to the client to use as they see fit and I retain the right to display it in my portfolio or other marketing purposes. Almost no one makes any copyright claim because they do not understand they should be doing so. Mostly it works out fine.

Here's something really wild about copyright: it has infinite divisibility. One can sell aspects of one's copyright. For example, when I was writing horror fiction and/or art, the contracts would be very specific such as "First North American right of publication", etc. In this case the magazine was purchasing the rights to be the first in North America to publish it, essentially not only agreeing they had the right to publish but also that I had not published it elsewhere previously in North America. You can continue to divide it up. I have also sold rights for "republication in North America", etc.

Generally if there's a contract that I've developed I do expressly grant all copyright only upon final, full payment while reserving the right for me to use it on my web site or any other of my company' marketing materials. My agreement in the case of Bitmole's art was pretty loosey-goosey and did not expressly grant any copyright.

[KeyserSoze]

everything fine now, he got 3 BTC instead of 1 btc and you got scammer label lifted.

For the record, it was 2. Cuddlefish sent 1 and Bitmole sent the one you loaned him. I will contact cuddlefish to see if he wants his 1 BTC back that I did not ask for but was given out of his kindness. Or maybe he gave it so Bitmole and I would just shutup!