Do we want to continue to allow various vendor hate in here?

[m3sSh3aD]

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"

Really dude, get off the high horse

That is a valid question. Why do you chose not to answer it?

ProfMac has a valid point, he deserves an answer. If only for educational purposes. Here's your chance to prove that you may actually contribute to bitcoin.

Ah, im outa here, i remember why i stopped coming to these forums now!

Somehow I have my doubts.

I did answer his question AFTER your quoted section. Bother to read before you post? Shit man, I left an essay on another post for the previously mention 'mofo19' above.

And yes, Im here biatch

[1715189374]

1715189374

[1715189374]

1715189374

[CoinHoarder]

8 pages of replies here and only 2 people can go over to meta subforum and support this initiative?

Please, more people need to go support this if anything is to be done: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282006.0

[bcp19]

I just now found this thread. Don't know how I missed it. Only read the OP to date.

Just to let everybody know that I will significantly tone down my vapid, vacuous, vile verbiage.

Im guessing your the informous PG i been told about. Looks like you do bow down to smack tards which is what i presumed (mother of all fuck ups). Some dude with 19 at the end of his name told me you agreed to disagree with him on how retarded he is, What does that make you?

Sorry dude, Facts are facts!

Sadly, people just like you are why this thread got started.  Since you seem to have been gone and missed a lot, you sure make a lot of assumptions on things you clearly have no knowledge of.  PG there has had something like 5 anti-BFL threads running for quite some time.  He was invited personally by Josh to visit BFL and determine for himself the truth of things, so ON HIS OWN, he decided to stop the presses and wait until he made his visit and found out first hand what was going on.  Just cause you are too lazy to find out the truth though, you assume someone bullied him into being quiet.  The only person that can Muzzle PG is PG... too bad you do not have the intelligence to understand that on your own.

Now, please stop adding to the hate and leave.  

[k9quaint]

He was invited personally by Josh to visit BFL and determine for himself the truth of things, so ON HIS OWN, he decided to stop the presses and wait until he made his visit and found out first hand what was going on.  Just cause you are too lazy to find out the truth though, you assume someone bullied him into being quiet.  
<insults snipped>

This is what the community has been agitating for. Transparency.
Many of us have lived through this list:
List of Major Bitcoin Heists, Thefts, Hacks, Scams, and Losses
When a company fails to deliver, they don't get a free pass anymore. The company gets raked over the coals now, because the number of people who have been ripped off at some point in the Bitcoin ecosystem has grown large enough that they cannot be shouted down by a few white knights anymore. Look at how fast the tables turned on Avalon.

Early on in Bitcoin, people were naive. Now, there are a lot more people with burned fingers. There are a lot more people in general. Now, when white knights mount a defense on the forums, it erupts into a conflagration that grows rather than subsides.

The rise in the number of threads is due to an increase in population of the Bitcoin community as much as an increase in vendor hate. Also, since most mining is done by ASICs now, all modern mining information is either in the Custom Hardware or the Group Buys. Custom Hardware needs to be split up into subforums that can serve as proper homes for the different sorts of discussions.

[bcp19]

He was invited personally by Josh to visit BFL and determine for himself the truth of things, so ON HIS OWN, he decided to stop the presses and wait until he made his visit and found out first hand what was going on.  Just cause you are too lazy to find out the truth though, you assume someone bullied him into being quiet.  
<insults snipped>

This is what the community has been agitating for. Transparency.
Many of us have lived through this list:
List of Major Bitcoin Heists, Thefts, Hacks, Scams, and Losses
When a company fails to deliver, they don't get a free pass anymore. The company gets raked over the coals now, because the number of people who have been ripped off at some point in the Bitcoin ecosystem has grown large enough that they cannot be shouted down by a few white knights anymore. Look at how fast the tables turned on Avalon.

Early on in Bitcoin, people were naive. Now, there are a lot more people with burned fingers. There are a lot more people in general. Now, when white knights mount a defense on the forums, it erupts into a conflagration that grows rather than subsides.

The rise in the number of threads is due to an increase in population of the Bitcoin community as much as an increase in vendor hate. Also, since most mining is done by ASICs now, all modern mining information is either in the Custom Hardware or the Group Buys. Custom Hardware needs to be split up into subforums that can serve as proper homes for the different sorts of discussions.

You do make very good points.  The bitcoin community is very much in the "Burn me once shame on you, burn me twice and I'm going ballistic" frame of mind nowadays.  Your 'white knights' have dwindled though (mostly through being repeatedly shouted down) and anymore it seems anyone standing up for any questionable company become a target for unwarranted attacks, derision and out-right flames.  It'd be nice if things could change, but only time will tell.

[Bicknellski]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

Will we continue to accept advertising from buttfuck labs?

This post is really at the center of this thread.

Here's the deal.  If I want to discuss bitcoin or mining in a college classroom, I have to think long and hard about using your post, and by extension, this entire thread.  It does not matter that all college students use language that is more colorful than yours, the fact is that *I* dare not use that language inside a college classroom.

That leaves the choice of 1) lose one way to introduce bitcoin to an audience that is very good about accepting new ideas or 2) asking for your post to be removed.

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"
2.  Is there any reason that this question needs to be repeated 1, or 2, or 3, or more dozen times?
3.  Can you accomplish your goals by buying an advertisement that says, oh, "Butterfly Labs is 1 year late on delivery" and another that says "Butterfly Labs strongly discourages refunds?" instead of posting vendor hate?

Really dude, get off the high horse (and everyone who thinks 'swearing' is bad) and realise its human expression and isnt bad. If i told you jump off a cliff would you, So why believe it when your told swearing is bad? the word FUCK as more uses than almost any other word out there, and not all are dirrogitive

Do you think kids don't know this shit from the age of 7 or less? It's called making mountains out of moul hills and i see it everywhere about just about everything.

Buttfucker labs is what i and many people call them for good reason, THEY LIKE BUTTFUCKING PEOPLE!

Ah, im outa here, i remember why i stopped coming to these forums now!

The way I see it is we need a much higher horse to for everyone. Playing the muck raking game puts us into the situation of always burying the important information and those acting unethically continue to get away with that behavior. We need to change the whole dialogue and get it off the BAD companies and put the dialogue into the GOOD companies. Meaning we need a subforum to do just that which requires standards to be met and upheld. Otherwise we continue this merry go round.

I would add that there may infact be some fault to lay at the feet of the forum owners / moderators if this comes to a law suit, given that they seem to take no action when there seems to be quite credible evidence that the advertising being posted is in fact very misleading or even outright fraud. What policies does this forum have to protect people from that. I am all for the free market but there is something called truth in advertising for a reason right? Some of the blame for all this acrimony rests squarely on the forum for not doing very much of anything to protect the interest of the users leaving it up to people to rightly and justly rise up and warn others but as always it quickly degrades into what we see since there is a LACK of standards. Ignoring the forum users plight like this is really negligence if you ask me and is tantamount to unprofessionalism.

[m3sSh3aD]

I just now found this thread. Don't know how I missed it. Only read the OP to date.

Just to let everybody know that I will significantly tone down my vapid, vacuous, vile verbiage.

Im guessing your the informous PG i been told about. Looks like you do bow down to smack tards which is what i presumed (mother of all fuck ups). Some dude with 19 at the end of his name told me you agreed to disagree with him on how retarded he is, What does that make you?

Sorry dude, Facts are facts!

Sadly, people just like you are why this thread got started.  Since you seem to have been gone and missed a lot, you sure make a lot of assumptions on things you clearly have no knowledge of.  PG there has had something like 5 anti-BFL threads running for quite some time.  He was invited personally by Josh to visit BFL and determine for himself the truth of things, so ON HIS OWN, he decided to stop the presses and wait until he made his visit and found out first hand what was going on.  Just cause you are too lazy to find out the truth though, you assume someone bullied him into being quiet.  The only person that can Muzzle PG is PG... too bad you do not have the intelligence to understand that on your own.

Now, please stop adding to the hate and leave.  

Go fuck yourself, I'm a customer who as been butt fucked by bfL and if you bother to look, the last time I was on here was years ago when I was helping people with rigs/harware. Now I'm here making sure people don't keep falling for bfl  labs, Which they still are. So until people get the picture, the hate ain't going stop flowing! Until bfl prove they are changing there practices, the hate will flow! As for pg, I heard about him actually and I just thought what a smug, fell for that old trick!

Like the federal reserve saying to Germany it can't see its own gold! Fucking insane! They can only look into one room was there next reply ha ha. Anyone get the feeling the feds...... have no gold.... cause they sold it all to artificially keep the price of gold down. Just like the 100'000 1oz bars they sold from UK's vaults between Feb and June!

I'm sorry dude but people who know anything about tech can see what bfl is doing. I don't actually think your a shill no more if that makes you feel better but the fact that your trying keep an even sided argument is futile when more and more people are going get buttfucked by these labs! Its only going get worse as more people realise the truth!

I don't care who people are or what there title is, there made from the same stuff as myself which makes them no better or worse than me until Ive evaluated there actions. And bfls actions are fucking disgusting! They banned me for wanting to help the dude who lost his mt gox and bit stamp account! Oclhashcat can crack 55 character passwords now in 2 days on  6990 GPU! Some on updated it and its a game changer! Add 2x6990 = 1 day... and it support and 128 video cards so 64x6990's would take like... a minute ha ha.

Its that simple dude! Why are you defending them when you have a order for  5ghash unit in June! You do realise you'll never see that?

[peetah]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

Will we continue to accept advertising from buttfuck labs?

This post is really at the center of this thread.

Here's the deal.  If I want to discuss bitcoin or mining in a college classroom, I have to think long and hard about using your post, and by extension, this entire thread.  It does not matter that all college students use language that is more colorful than yours, the fact is that *I* dare not use that language inside a college classroom.

That leaves the choice of 1) lose one way to introduce bitcoin to an audience that is very good about accepting new ideas or 2) asking for your post to be removed.

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"
2.  Is there any reason that this question needs to be repeated 1, or 2, or 3, or more dozen times?
3.  Can you accomplish your goals by buying an advertisement that says, oh, "Butterfly Labs is 1 year late on delivery" and another that says "Butterfly Labs strongly discourages refunds?" instead of posting vendor hate?

Really dude, get off the high horse (and everyone who thinks 'swearing' is bad) and realise its human expression and isnt bad. If i told you jump off a cliff would you, So why believe it when your told swearing is bad? the word FUCK as more uses than almost any other word out there, and not all are dirrogitive

Do you think kids don't know this shit from the age of 7 or less? It's called making mountains out of moul hills and i see it everywhere about just about everything.

Buttfucker labs is what i and many people call them for good reason, THEY LIKE BUTTFUCKING PEOPLE!

Ah, im outa here, i remember why i stopped coming to these forums now!

The way I see it is we need a much higher horse to for everyone. Playing the muck raking game puts us into the situation of always burying the important information and those acting unethically continue to get away with that behavior. We need to change the whole dialogue and get it off the BAD companies and put the dialogue into the GOOD companies. Meaning we need a subforum to do just that which requires standards to be met and upheld. Otherwise we continue this merry go round.

I would add that there may infact be some fault to lay at the feet of the forum owners / moderators if this comes to a law suit, given that they seem to take no action when there seems to be quite credible evidence that the advertising being posted is in fact very misleading or even outright fraud. What policies does this forum have to protect people from that. I am all for the free market but there is something called truth in advertising for a reason right? Some of the blame for all this acrimony rests squarely on the forum for not doing very much of anything to protect the interest of the users leaving it up to people to rightly and justly rise up and warn others but as always it quickly degrades into what we see since there is a LACK of standards. Ignoring the forum users plight like this is really negligence if you ask me and is tantamount to unprofessionalism.

Bingo.

I waded through pages on BS to find that I should have just read the last page.

The vendors currently have WAY too much bargaining power, to the point where buyers are at best investors and at worst losers with no legal recourse. This forum serves buyers primarily because against such malpractices the only means of effective recourse is sharing of information.

Not doing much of anything is a factor of causality. How?  When the forum organizes itself to vote 1000 votes in overwhelming majority to label a certain vendor, what the forum goers are saying is that they would rather stop hating and let the common consensus have their say (sounds terribly bitcoin doesn't it?). The point of this is to clear up the hatred, and waste of space. At the same time it is a very effective means of getting the vendors to clean up their act. Done. Solution right there on your lap. Ready and waiting. For eternity.

So. When the proposition arises that we should stop all the hate and how, I find it terribly odd that only after 8 pages of post has somebody dared to point the finger squarely at the OP.

Or to put in more directly, just do what you're supposed to. If you can't then set up a sub forum for somebody who  can.

[bcp19]

Bingo.

I waded through pages on BS to find that I should have just read the last page.

The vendors currently have WAY too much bargaining power, to the point where buyers are at best investors and at worst losers with no legal recourse. This forum serves buyers primarily because against such malpractices the only means of effective recourse is sharing of information.

Not doing much of anything is a factor of causality. How?  When the forum organizes itself to vote 1000 votes in overwhelming majority to label a certain vendor, what the forum goers are saying is that they would rather stop hating and let the common consensus have their say (sounds terribly bitcoin doesn't it?). The point of this is to clear up the hatred, and waste of space. At the same time it is a very effective means of getting the vendors to clean up their act. Done. Solution right there on your lap. Ready and waiting. For eternity.

So. When the proposition arises that we should stop all the hate and how, I find it terribly odd that only after 8 pages of post has somebody dared to point the finger squarely at the OP.

Or to put in more directly, just do what you're supposed to. If you can't then set up a sub forum for somebody who  can.

You've actually hit the nail on the head, but refuse to see it.  Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income.  People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent.  You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income.  You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.

With all the different companies racing to put their product into play, it comes down to whether you bet on the right horse or not.  While Avalon did beat BFL to market and the people betting on them won big, but only 1500 people maximum could take that bet... the others lost out.  In addition, the people who bought ASICMiner shares at .1 also made out like bandits with the share price dangling around 5BTC not long ago.  BUT, how many of those original shareholders still had shares when it hit that high?  I count myself lucky as I got into the ASMICMiners shares at 2.4 and sold a majority of them at 4.8 and then the remainder of them at 3.7.  With the price back at 2.4, I won, but whoever bought my shares didn't.

I've never spent a single BTC I've earned, I've invested some and won big, I've invested some and lost, in the long run I have well over 2x what I would have had I sat on everything I mined.  My profit though was someone else's loss.  There is no way to get around that.

[ordy]

Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income.  People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent.  You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income.  You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.

missed the nail on this one.  we are talking about hardware vendors here - not the 'industry' as a whole. we are not investors in any BTC hardware company when we order hardware.  if we were we would have equity stakes and privileges associated with that.  in this context the only thing that should be guaranteed (by laws and regs) is that a hardware product purchased by a customer is delivered as advertised (including the time frame).  if customers are not receiving the products they should be in, the time that they should, then these forums are one of several means of recourse for customers to use against fraudulent, incompetent, or otherwise non-performing hardware vendors.

[bronan]

The issue is that many vendors copied the BFL way, to get money for their startup as a hardware "company" who all take money before they actually deliver.

Now this all would be acceptable if the ones buying the hardware would get some benefit from being the first ones who ordered

Since they actually played the loaning bank for them, but instead of being rewarded we are being called silly idiots who only cry "see the many reactions in many threads about different hardware".

So for me its hard to keep my head cool since i am one of those who got a jalapeno while i paid for a SC single ( which has changed a couple of times in hashpower during the time they was not delivered and even i forgot what was written when i bought it.

So yes i want satisfaction but since bfl does not deliver the item i bought ,nor answer my emails regarding this issue i feel betrayed and scammed
I do not want to see posts by people who think they are god and that they are allways right.
 
The most annoying is to see that other people actually get what they ordered no matter the date.

Yes its insane that we had to wait more then a year to see actual hardware appear but if it was the right hardware i would never been so pissed.
Or if they would anwer me in a proper way and give me a satisfactory solution for the time and anger they caused, and last but not least some formal answer with a nice sorry sir ... blah blah blah

So i think any pre-order business should be moved towards a a sub forums where is written that doing this is pretty risky for the one doing this pre-order, in fact it should actually be under gamble with your btc. since we now learned the early adopters of this hardware are actually all loosing money. Besides those lucky few who got those big rigs early on. If they do make ROI i don't know but they might get lucky if that device can be kept mining on cheap electra.

The fact that many people here jump in to the discussions and start defending for instance bfl, even when they have preorders themselfs just means in my view that they hope by doing this they might get a better change their order comes in well.

Some of them are on my ignore and i really would have an option where i can completely make those persons invisble completely.
I really no longer want to see these persons names/posts at all anymore, even if they actually got screwed i would not care one cent about them. 

We all know if something is valuable the world is full with thieves, hackers, scammers and liars.
So its hard to see who are the good guys and who are the bad ones, we assume if one has a nice site and looks promising and offer us a good looking deal we want to try it
However how do we protect ourselfs against fraudulent companies ... indeed we post it on forums like here and try to prevent others to fall in the same pit you fell into.
But then all of a sudden people start making you the liar, fool, moron, thief and the idiot on this forum.... should we just shut up and go on with our lifes like nothing happened.
Is that what bitcoin will be, the ultimate untrustworthy coin. The one and only currency where people should stay far away from.

Then by all means stop all who want to go for justice, because everytime one report his findings or concerns they get flamed by the wonderboys who know all and believe what they think is the truth.
See the problem with bitcoin is that indeed it is hard to trace and by that it opens up a wealth of ways to steal those coins, yes money is also not totally safe but it can be traced by the serial numbers till it leaves the cash machines. Which most people not even know they are being filmed the moment they cash it out.
 

[mtminer]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

More active moderation, keep people from posting the same thing 10 times in 5 different threads. Once the abusers quit getting attention they will get bored and move on. As it stands today I would rather see the custom hardware forum go away then to continue in this same direction.

[bcp19]

Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income.  People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent.  You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income.  You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.

missed the nail on this one.  we are talking about hardware vendors here - not the 'industry' as a whole. we are not investors in any BTC hardware company when we order hardware.  if we were we would have equity stakes and privileges associated with that.  in this context the only thing that should be guaranteed (by laws and regs) is that a hardware product purchased by a customer is delivered as advertised (including the time frame).  if customers are not receiving the products they should be in, the time that they should, then these forums are one of several means of recourse for customers to use against fraudulent, incompetent, or otherwise non-performing hardware vendors.

No, I actually didn't.  I'm talking about the equipment investment and whichever company you buy from doesn't matter.  Maybe comparing the purchase of equipment to stock in a company was wrong, yet the premise remains solid.  You are speculating that the equipment you are purchasing will make you more money than you spent.

Now, if you want to compare companies, then you have to liken it to horse racing.  You're betting your horse will come in first, and if it doesn't you lose.  From your statement, you are obviously referring to BFL.  Considering their track record with the FPGA, anyone who took the time to read up on them would realize this horse is a long shot.  Betting on the long shot can win big, but more often than not, you lose.  

In my case, I already knew the horse had lost, so my bet was that they would still finish the race.  At the time I made my purchase I had 2 choices... $250 per .333MH or $274 for 5GH.  I already had several GPUs running, so I felt the $274 was a better investment even though I figured I would not see it for a long time.  I compared 13M difficulty, 28% growth (which the network was at the time) and 5GH.  Going with the USB, this would cost me $3,750 for 5GH and after one year I would be at a loss of $613.  That sold me... it was better to possibly lose $274 than it was to definitely lose $613.

[ordy]

Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income.  People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent.  You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income.  You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.

missed the nail on this one.  we are talking about hardware vendors here - not the 'industry' as a whole. we are not investors in any BTC hardware company when we order hardware.  if we were we would have equity stakes and privileges associated with that.  in this context the only thing that should be guaranteed (by laws and regs) is that a hardware product purchased by a customer is delivered as advertised (including the time frame).  if customers are not receiving the products they should be in, the time that they should, then these forums are one of several means of recourse for customers to use against fraudulent, incompetent, or otherwise non-performing hardware vendors.

No, I actually didn't.  I'm talking about the equipment investment and whichever company you buy from doesn't matter.  Maybe comparing the purchase of equipment to stock in a company was wrong, yet the premise remains solid.  You are speculating that the equipment you are purchasing will make you more money than you spent.

Now, if you want to compare companies, then you have to liken it to horse racing.  You're betting your horse will come in first, and if it doesn't you lose.  From your statement, you are obviously referring to BFL.  Considering their track record with the FPGA, anyone who took the time to read up on them would realize this horse is a long shot.  Betting on the long shot can win big, but more often than not, you lose.  

In my case, I already knew the horse had lost, so my bet was that they would still finish the race.  At the time I made my purchase I had 2 choices... $250 per .333MH or $274 for 5GH.  I already had several GPUs running, so I felt the $274 was a better investment even though I figured I would not see it for a long time.  I compared 13M difficulty, 28% growth (which the network was at the time) and 5GH.  Going with the USB, this would cost me $3,750 for 5GH and after one year I would be at a loss of $613.  That sold me... it was better to possibly lose $274 than it was to definitely lose $613.

umm, ya, and missed again.  i'm not sure what the purpose is for all of your attempted analogies and metaphors but they are not relevant.  the personal stories are cute, but again irrelevant.  nobody is saying that the BTC world is not risky, and of course one has to make an educated guess as to where best to put his/her money - which sometimes works out well and sometimes not.

what is the core of the thread and quoted OP is if this sub-forum is a acceptable location for customers of poor/non performing hardware vendors to share experiences, ask pointed questions, and sometimes just vent.  then to try to come up with method(s) to minimize the impact of that to other vendors who are performing well or have not yet missed a mark.

so please comment directly - do you think that customers of poorly performing vendors should have 'free speech' in this sub-forum (excluding threats of personal or property harm and such of course)?

[bcp19]

Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income.  People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent.  You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income.  You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.

missed the nail on this one.  we are talking about hardware vendors here - not the 'industry' as a whole. we are not investors in any BTC hardware company when we order hardware.  if we were we would have equity stakes and privileges associated with that.  in this context the only thing that should be guaranteed (by laws and regs) is that a hardware product purchased by a customer is delivered as advertised (including the time frame).  if customers are not receiving the products they should be in, the time that they should, then these forums are one of several means of recourse for customers to use against fraudulent, incompetent, or otherwise non-performing hardware vendors.

No, I actually didn't.  I'm talking about the equipment investment and whichever company you buy from doesn't matter.  Maybe comparing the purchase of equipment to stock in a company was wrong, yet the premise remains solid.  You are speculating that the equipment you are purchasing will make you more money than you spent.

Now, if you want to compare companies, then you have to liken it to horse racing.  You're betting your horse will come in first, and if it doesn't you lose.  From your statement, you are obviously referring to BFL.  Considering their track record with the FPGA, anyone who took the time to read up on them would realize this horse is a long shot.  Betting on the long shot can win big, but more often than not, you lose.  

In my case, I already knew the horse had lost, so my bet was that they would still finish the race.  At the time I made my purchase I had 2 choices... $250 per .333MH or $274 for 5GH.  I already had several GPUs running, so I felt the $274 was a better investment even though I figured I would not see it for a long time.  I compared 13M difficulty, 28% growth (which the network was at the time) and 5GH.  Going with the USB, this would cost me $3,750 for 5GH and after one year I would be at a loss of $613.  That sold me... it was better to possibly lose $274 than it was to definitely lose $613.

umm, ya, and missed again.  i'm not sure what the purpose is for all of your attempted analogies and metaphors but they are not relevant.  the personal stories are cute, but again irrelevant.  nobody is saying that the BTC world is not risky, and of course one has to make an educated guess as to where best to put his/her money - which sometimes works out well and sometimes not.

what is the core of the thread and quoted OP is if this sub-forum is a acceptable location for customers of poor/non performing hardware vendors to share experiences, ask pointed questions, and sometimes just vent.  then to try to come up with method(s) to minimize the impact of that to other vendors who are performing well or have not yet missed a mark.

so please comment directly - do you think that customers of poorly performing vendors should have 'free speech' in this sub-forum (excluding threats of personal or property harm and such of course)?

In reality you are comparing apples to oranges, yet I will answer you in full.

Whether you are a customer of a company that is performing well or poorly, you should be allowed to post your experiences and within reason your thoughts.  I posted my thoughts above because THAT is how I made my decision for the purchase I made after having done a lot of research through the older posts on this very forum.  The people who feel they must then call me names and deride me for my decision are producing nothing more than a dark atmosphere that will prevent future posters from speaking their minds in fear of getting the same treatment.  That type of 'free speech' should be curtailed as it produces nothing.  If someone were to offer a well reasoned argument and detail why they felt my decision was wrong, I would look at their comments and research them and come to a new conclusion based on that and let them know why I either agreed or disagreed with them and list the points.

If you took the time to read though the majority of my postings, you'd notice that, as my signature states, the worse you treat me, the worse I respond.  I have earned the emnity of many and the respect of few, but their opinion of me matters not to me, as I am secure in who I am.  I personally love an intelligent debate, and this sub-forum would be a wondrus place if that was what we conducted here.  Sadly, with the anonymity the internet provides, you have people lashing out like they never would in a face to face meeting.

The problem then becomes where to draw the line.  Unless everyone agrees, it will just fuel the fire.

[ordy]

In reality you are comparing apples to oranges, yet I will answer you in full.

Whether you are a customer of a company that is performing well or poorly, you should be allowed to post your experiences and within reason your thoughts.  I posted my thoughts above because THAT is how I made my decision for the purchase I made after having done a lot of research through the older posts on this very forum.  The people who feel they must then call me names and deride me for my decision are producing nothing more than a dark atmosphere that will prevent future posters from speaking their minds in fear of getting the same treatment.  That type of 'free speech' should be curtailed as it produces nothing.  If someone were to offer a well reasoned argument and detail why they felt my decision was wrong, I would look at their comments and research them and come to a new conclusion based on that and let them know why I either agreed or disagreed with them and list the points.

If you took the time to read though the majority of my postings, you'd notice that, as my signature states, the worse you treat me, the worse I respond.  I have earned the emnity of many and the respect of few, but their opinion of me matters not to me, as I am secure in who I am.  I personally love an intelligent debate, and this sub-forum would be a wondrus place if that was what we conducted here.  Sadly, with the anonymity the internet provides, you have people lashing out like they never would in a face to face meeting.

The problem then becomes where to draw the line.  Unless everyone agrees, it will just fuel the fire.

actually, i am not comparing anything to anything.   

[bcp19]

In reality you are comparing apples to oranges, yet I will answer you in full.

Whether you are a customer of a company that is performing well or poorly, you should be allowed to post your experiences and within reason your thoughts.  I posted my thoughts above because THAT is how I made my decision for the purchase I made after having done a lot of research through the older posts on this very forum.  The people who feel they must then call me names and deride me for my decision are producing nothing more than a dark atmosphere that will prevent future posters from speaking their minds in fear of getting the same treatment.  That type of 'free speech' should be curtailed as it produces nothing.  If someone were to offer a well reasoned argument and detail why they felt my decision was wrong, I would look at their comments and research them and come to a new conclusion based on that and let them know why I either agreed or disagreed with them and list the points.

If you took the time to read though the majority of my postings, you'd notice that, as my signature states, the worse you treat me, the worse I respond.  I have earned the emnity of many and the respect of few, but their opinion of me matters not to me, as I am secure in who I am.  I personally love an intelligent debate, and this sub-forum would be a wondrus place if that was what we conducted here.  Sadly, with the anonymity the internet provides, you have people lashing out like they never would in a face to face meeting.

The problem then becomes where to draw the line.  Unless everyone agrees, it will just fuel the fire.

actually, i am not comparing anything to anything.   

And this illustrates my point.  You asked a question and then completely ignored the answer to point out something irrelevant.

[Raoul Duke]

8 pages of replies here and only 2 people can go over to meta subforum and support this initiative?

Please, more people need to go support this if anything is to be done: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282006.0

Maybe that's because what you think is a problem is just 4 or 5 dudes with a big mouth, lots of time in their hands and a sense of entitlement like I haven't seen before.
Translation: nothing a few bans won't solve.
But that's just how I see it, and what the fuck do I know, right?

[01BTC10]

8 pages of replies here and only 2 people can go over to meta subforum and support this initiative?

Please, more people need to go support this if anything is to be done: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282006.0

Maybe that's because what you think is a problem is just 4 or 5 dudes with a big mouth, lots of time in their hands and a sense of entitlement like I haven't seen before.
Translation: nothing a few bans won't solve.
But that's just how I see it, and what the fuck do I know, right?

But the forum promote freedom of speech like with BFL ads so it can't ban users for posting their ideas. Meanwhile, they are clustering a technical part of the forum that don't give a *** about their flame wars. Give them a section to do so and everyone will be happy.

[bcp19]

8 pages of replies here and only 2 people can go over to meta subforum and support this initiative?

Please, more people need to go support this if anything is to be done: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282006.0

Maybe that's because what you think is a problem is just 4 or 5 dudes with a big mouth, lots of time in their hands and a sense of entitlement like I haven't seen before.
Translation: nothing a few bans won't solve.
But that's just how I see it, and what the fuck do I know, right?

But the forum promote freedom of speech like with BFL ads so it can't ban users for posting their ideas. Meanwhile, they are clustering a technical part of the forum that don't give a *** about their flame wars. Give them a section to do so and everyone will be happy.

That does raise an interesting idea... why not simply create a Vendor Hate sub-forum and move posts as needed?  If you shunt enough to the basement, it may eventually get forgotten.