Do we want to continue to allow various vendor hate in here?

[qwk]

I think just a basic minimal amount of moderation would solve 99% of the problems.

#1) Posting anyone anywhere's contact information = ACCOUNT BAN
#2) Accusing anyone anywhere of criminal activity = ACCOUNT BAN
#3) Threatening anyone anywhere with violence = ACCOUNT BAN
#4) Multiple accounts = ACCOUNT BAN

#1)
- does that include posting a link to somebody's facebook account?
- what about cases of escrowed contact information that should be published?
- what about posting a company address for complaints etc?
#2)
- what about accusing someone of a legal activity in their respective country that would be illegal in the posters' country?
- what about pointing out that a certain activity could be considered illegal under certain circumstances?
#3)
- no questions about that, but I could imagine that to be a slippery slope as well.
#4)
- outright no. That's been thoroughly discussed and it is "forum moderation consent" that multiple accounts are okay.

The point here is, it's really difficult to find a golden set of rules for a global community with different views, beliefs, legal systems, and cultural backgrounds. Things may look clear for you, but they most likely won't be for everybody else for any given case of the above.


I still propose the market solution, make vendors pay for "vanity forums":
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281307.msg3011400#msg3011400
That would probably solve the problem once and for all.

[qwk]

I suggest renaming "Custom hardware" to "Custom hardware development" and adding another hardware subforum "Vendor customer discussion"

 I can't think of any reasons why this proposal wouldn't work. No sarcasm. It would immediately solve many of the problems in this sub.

The reason why it won't work:
There needs to be someone to decide which "company" is eligible for a subforum.
Who will do that, and on what grounds?

Sell the subforums, and the vendors who want to be taken seriously will buy them themselves.

[kano]

I suggest renaming "Custom hardware" to "Custom hardware development" and adding another hardware subforum "Vendor customer discussion"

 I can't think of any reasons why this proposal wouldn't work. No sarcasm. It would immediately solve many of the problems in this sub.

The reason why it won't work:
There needs to be someone to decide which "company" is eligible for a subforum.
Who will do that, and on what grounds?

Sell the subforums, and the vendors who want to be taken seriously will buy them themselves.

Read the quote again ...

[qwk]

I suggest renaming "Custom hardware" to "Custom hardware development" and adding another hardware subforum "Vendor customer discussion"

 I can't think of any reasons why this proposal wouldn't work. No sarcasm. It would immediately solve many of the problems in this sub.

The reason why it won't work:
There needs to be someone to decide which "company" is eligible for a subforum.
Who will do that, and on what grounds?

Sell the subforums, and the vendors who want to be taken seriously will buy them themselves.

Read the quote again ...

Mine isn't working!

[dogie]

I think that there needs to be a subform for the big players like BFL, Avalon, KNC etc. On the front page there are 10+ BFL threads and its sickening. The BFL buyers dont even read nevermind search, they all think they are the chosen ones. At least this way we'd have somewhere to put them all.

And ps, I would still be a mod for custom hw if asked.

[Bicknellski]

I think that there needs to be a subform for the big players like BFL, Avalon, KNC etc. On the front page there are 10+ BFL threads and its sickening. The BFL buyers dont even read nevermind search, they all think they are the chosen ones. At least this way we'd have somewhere to put them all.

And ps, I would still be a mod for custom hw if asked.

There needs to be a subforum for reputable businesses, not just the "BIG PLAYERS", and it needs to include buyers all must agree to a clear set of standards BEFORE they post in this subforum. That is the only way to then MODERATE that subforum based on a clear set of standards for business practice. If you don't want to follow those standards then you can BUY advertising space same as before. If you agree to the standards and then run afoul of them the moderators there and users can ask you to clarify or rectify the problems if you don't you are banned from that subform, your posts are locked and moved from that subforum. It doesn't have to be about double accounts, threats of violence it just has to be about good business practices. Check these standards out. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282030.msg3024895#msg3024895.

These are clear simple rules to follow. If you agree to those there will be 0 issues. If you screw up you have to state why and offer a solution. If you don't BAM banned from that subforum. Simple it is based on those 8 standards and everyone agrees to help move the dialogue forward not backward. The idea is to find a resolution. If you start screwing around lying making false accusations etc you are banned be you a customer or fabricator. Simple. You can get back in the subforum if you offer a proposal to rectify the problem you created by NOT FOLLOWING the STANDARDS which can be held to a vote for reinstatement or a dialogue in the subforum can happen on the proposal.


1. Build Trust

Establish and maintain a positive track record in the marketplace.

2. Advertise Honestly

Adhere to established standards of advertising and selling.

3. Tell the Truth

Honestly represent products and services, including clear and adequate disclosures of all material terms.

4. Be Transparent

Openly identify the nature, location, and ownership of the business, and clearly disclose all policies, guarantees and procedures that bear on a customer’s decision to buy.

5. Honor Promises

Abide by all written agreements and verbal representations.

6. Be Responsive

Address marketplace disputes quickly, professionally, and in good faith.

7. Safeguard Privacy

Protect any data collected against mishandling and fraud, collect personal information only as needed, and respect the preferences of customers regarding the use of their information.

8. Embody Integrity

Approach all business dealings, marketplace transactions and commitments with integrity.

Moderators for this subforum should be willing to make fair and decisive judgements based on the 8 standards. Clearly there are many current companies that would not be able to post in this subforum given the standards nor would some "trolls" who go over the TOP in complaining. Win win. I have accepted the terms and will now follow those rules everywhere in the forums until we have a subforum where the Miners and Custom Hardware makers can resolve their issues and improve Bitcoin.

[af_newbie]

1. Build Trust

Establish and maintain a positive track record in the marketplace.

2. Advertise Honestly

Adhere to established standards of advertising and selling.

3. Tell the Truth

Honestly represent products and services, including clear and adequate disclosures of all material terms.

4. Be Transparent

Openly identify the nature, location, and ownership of the business, and clearly disclose all policies, guarantees and procedures that bear on a customer’s decision to buy.

5. Honor Promises

Abide by all written agreements and verbal representations.

6. Be Responsive

Address marketplace disputes quickly, professionally, and in good faith.

7. Safeguard Privacy

Protect any data collected against mishandling and fraud, collect personal information only as needed, and respect the preferences of customers regarding the use of their information.

8. Embody Integrity

Approach all business dealings, marketplace transactions and commitments with integrity.

+1
Most sensible list I've seen so far. 

BUT, if you apply this to existing manufacturers/sellers/resellers on a handful would qualify to post in Custom Hardware section.
Avalon & BFL (IBM and GE of bitcoin) would have to be kicked out (3&5).

Let the free market sort things out.  Use Trust settings for any violators.
Other than that, let them post whatever they want.  The more they say the easier it will be to flush them out.

[m3sSh3aD]

Maybe if you were one of these CUSTOMERS making these threads you MIGHT begin to understand WHY there is so much on here. There is no if's or buts, They ARE CON MEN, RUNNING AN ILLEGITIMATE COMPANY! (BFL)

Theres SOOOO much because although there is SOOOO much evidence against BFL, SHEEPLE STILL GO AND BUY/UPGRADE THERE STUFF!

IF BFL stopped conning/lieing/deceiving/abusing (and so on) then there wouldnt be so many threads would there!

IF you labeled BFL as a Bait & Switch company, You may see less cause people wouldn't end up falling for there BS!

Really all of you, There only one company in the BTC market that is a CONFIRMED SCAM and thats BFL. All others seem pretty spot on to me and are NOT run by convicted criminals!

[nexus99]

1. Build Trust

Establish and maintain a positive track record in the marketplace.

2. Advertise Honestly

Adhere to established standards of advertising and selling.

3. Tell the Truth

Honestly represent products and services, including clear and adequate disclosures of all material terms.

4. Be Transparent

Openly identify the nature, location, and ownership of the business, and clearly disclose all policies, guarantees and procedures that bear on a customer’s decision to buy.

5. Honor Promises

Abide by all written agreements and verbal representations.

6. Be Responsive

Address marketplace disputes quickly, professionally, and in good faith.

7. Safeguard Privacy

Protect any data collected against mishandling and fraud, collect personal information only as needed, and respect the preferences of customers regarding the use of their information.

8. Embody Integrity

Approach all business dealings, marketplace transactions and commitments with integrity.

+1
Most sensible list I've seen so far. 

BUT, if you apply this to existing manufacturers/sellers/resellers on a handful would qualify to post in Custom Hardware section.
Avalon & BFL (IBM and GE of bitcoin) would have to be kicked out (3&5).

Let the free market sort things out.  Use Trust settings for any violators.
Other than that, let them post whatever they want.  The more they say the easier it will be to flush them out.

I don't think that any company would make it into the forum. Someone is going to have a bad taste for company x, y, or z. They will cry and cry that the company is evil personified.

[bcp19]

Moderate nothing.  Let the ignore button do it's job.

Make a new sub-forum for each of the major manufacturers and 1 more for any new entrants to the bitcoin mining marketspace.  They can be promoted to their own new sub-forum if they make it bigger and appear not to be a scam.

+1.

-1

It's not the forum mods' job to legitimise one manufacturer over another by giving them their own subforum.

(Different Shit...Below)

It is for the fabricators to legitimise themselves and to band together to agree on standards and promote the industry to everyone in the community in a POSITIVE manner.

Have a Custom Hardware Association subforum that is moderated by members and users. All agree to set standards to post and publish in the subforum. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282030.0 That way the Association and Users are all responsible for the upkeep of the subforum based on a clear set ethical standards for businesses selling mining rigs, chips or diy projects. If you don't want to join (agree to the standards as a fabricator) you can still PAY the FORUM to advertise. That way it is free to advertize but you need to accept the standards before you can POST to the subforum. If you do not comply with the standards you are banned from posting in that subform and your posts are locked and moved elsewhere.

While this is an excellent idea in theory, I honestly doubt it would work in practice.  There is already too much hate and animosity and finding neutral people to police something like this would be virtually impossible.  I fear something like this would just lead to the moderators eventually being called shills or sock-puppets of whatever companies were allowed in to post. 

[Bicknellski]

Sounds like about 9 out 10 users would not be welcome to post in the subform either given the last round of replies.


The point here is not to say BFL is crap or Avalon is crap or 3 out of 5 won't qualify... the point is to have a place where people who want to sell using those standards can face the music, not run and try to resolve issues. If you agree to the terms 1 through 8 and someone is bitching and moaning for no reason they would be banned. Remember this would be a two way street. Neither crap companies no trolls would be welcome.

Ethics are simple to have and even easier to execute you just need to agree to professional standards. These would be something I think every buyer would want from their fabricator. If ever a fabricator wanted to corner the market following all 8 standards would insure your coffers would be full all the time. The problem posed was too much crap was being chucked around the forums. Well if we had an area with high standards for both user and fabricator then things could be a lot calmer and maybe we could even sell some units that come off a shelf for a fair price and delivered more or less on time... right?

Better to try this than to simply go down the same path and have 0 standards and a new place for all the bad crap to happen yet again. I for one want a place where people are expected to have standards it was never about a free marketplace it has always been about a better marketplace as obviously the free market has led us to this point where there are way too many people pissed off and not communicating effectively. Why? 0 standards. That is why we have the BBB in the first place to help both the businesses and the consumer. Let us give it a try can it be any worse than what is going on now right?

[PuertoLibre]

How do we make a self moderated thread? Anyone?

[millsdmb]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

Will we continue to accept advertising from buttfuck labs?

[ProfMac]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

Will we continue to accept advertising from buttfuck labs?

This post is really at the center of this thread.

Here's the deal.  If I want to discuss bitcoin or mining in a college classroom, I have to think long and hard about using your post, and by extension, this entire thread.  It does not matter that all college students use language that is more colorful than yours, the fact is that *I* dare not use that language inside a college classroom.

That leaves the choice of 1) lose one way to introduce bitcoin to an audience that is very good about accepting new ideas or 2) asking for your post to be removed.

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"
2.  Is there any reason that this question needs to be repeated 1, or 2, or 3, or more dozen times?
3.  Can you accomplish your goals by buying an advertisement that says, oh, "Butterfly Labs is 1 year late on delivery" and another that says "Butterfly Labs strongly discourages refunds?" instead of posting vendor hate?

[m3sSh3aD]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

Will we continue to accept advertising from buttfuck labs?

This post is really at the center of this thread.

Here's the deal.  If I want to discuss bitcoin or mining in a college classroom, I have to think long and hard about using your post, and by extension, this entire thread.  It does not matter that all college students use language that is more colorful than yours, the fact is that *I* dare not use that language inside a college classroom.

That leaves the choice of 1) lose one way to introduce bitcoin to an audience that is very good about accepting new ideas or 2) asking for your post to be removed.

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"
2.  Is there any reason that this question needs to be repeated 1, or 2, or 3, or more dozen times?
3.  Can you accomplish your goals by buying an advertisement that says, oh, "Butterfly Labs is 1 year late on delivery" and another that says "Butterfly Labs strongly discourages refunds?" instead of posting vendor hate?

Really dude, get off the high horse (and everyone who thinks 'swearing' is bad) and realise its human expression and isnt bad. If i told you jump off a cliff would you, So why believe it when your told swearing is bad? the word FUCK as more uses than almost any other word out there, and not all are dirrogitive

Do you think kids don't know this shit from the age of 7 or less? It's called making mountains out of moul hills and i see it everywhere about just about everything.

Buttfucker labs is what i and many people call them for good reason, THEY LIKE BUTTFUCKING PEOPLE!

Ah, im outa here, i remember why i stopped coming to these forums now!

[frankenmint]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

You know I've got a big fat FUCK YOU to gmaxwell for still accepting bfl ad money Sir.

[qwk]

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"

Really dude, get off the high horse

That is a valid question. Why do you chose not to answer it?

ProfMac has a valid point, he deserves an answer. If only for educational purposes. Here's your chance to prove that you may actually contribute to bitcoin.

Ah, im outa here, i remember why i stopped coming to these forums now!

Somehow I have my doubts.

[2112]

Will we continue to accept advertising from buttfuck labs?

This post is really at the center of this thread.

Here's the deal.  If I want to discuss bitcoin or mining in a college classroom, I have to think long and hard about using your post, and by extension, this entire thread.  It does not matter that all college students use language that is more colorful than yours, the fact is that *I* dare not use that language inside a college classroom.

That leaves the choice of 1) lose one way to introduce bitcoin to an audience that is very good about accepting new ideas or 2) asking for your post to be removed.

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"
2.  Is there any reason that this question needs to be repeated 1, or 2, or 3, or more dozen times?
3.  Can you accomplish your goals by buying an advertisement that says, oh, "Butterfly Labs is 1 year late on delivery" and another that says "Butterfly Labs strongly discourages refunds?" instead of posting vendor hate?

Seriously, you do have a 3rd choice: get off your high horse. I'm positive that the college classroom can deal with some coprolalia in the source materials. This completely isn't a problem and in fact helps explaining the psychological background in the Bitcoin millieu. If you personally somehow can't deal with it then seek advice from the colleagues amongst the faculty (e.g. gender studies).

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I just now found this thread. Don't know how I missed it. Only read the OP to date.

Just to let everybody know that I will significantly tone down my vapid, vacuous, vile verbiage.

[m3sSh3aD]

I just now found this thread. Don't know how I missed it. Only read the OP to date.

Just to let everybody know that I will significantly tone down my vapid, vacuous, vile verbiage.

Im guessing your the informous PG i been told about. Looks like you do bow down to smack tards which is what i presumed (mother of all fuck ups). Some dude with 19 at the end of his name told me you agreed to disagree with him on how retarded he is, What does that make you?

Sorry dude, Facts are facts!