Do we want to continue to allow various vendor hate in here?

[PuertoLibre]

No Performance, No thread:

Hi,

Just got a refund a few days ago.

I started a PayPal dispute at day 44 (I ordered and knew that if they did not ship by 45 days I will start a dispute on time).

I do not consider the rate at which they are shipping to be really shipping, because they lied on their shipping rates.
I don't have ANY problem with getting a refund by any mean under those circumstances.

And it's funny because BFL just announced the Monarch - I won't order from them but there is a shift toward more powerful devices, so I'm glad I got my money back.

I will NEVER AGAIN order from BFL. In 10+ years doing online e-commerce I've never seen people behaving like them.
The people in the BFL forums are like affected by the Stockholm syndrome : every time there is the slightest hope for something positive, they all get happy, and they don't see the big picture.

uski

Real customer with only 6 posts.

Stated policy to refuse any legal request for Refunds? Yes.
Advertising privileges pulled? No.
Threads are pulled? No.
Long history of the same ongoing problem? Yes.
Do they malign the very forum on which they advertise? Yes.


Consequences for Vendor? None.

[qwk]

Have you considered creating separate vendor subforums?  That may at least allow new members to chose what they want to be exposed to.  I understand that being protected from scams is important, but imo that is what the Scam Accusations forum should be used for.  

Separate vendor specific forums look like a good idea at first glance, but sooner or later, the vendors will "phase out".
In a year or so, we might already have a couple dozen hardware vendors, some with their own chips, others just sticking together components.
Also, a lot of the vendors won't be in business for too long, so eventually, you'll end up with forums for hardware vendors that no longer exist.
Also, some vendors may still exists but not have a new product for a long time. At the same time, they'll be in "planning phase" for a new product for some years before you can really tell that they're no longer on the market.
It could become a real hassle to find out which vendor forum should remain open and which one should be archived.

But, I think I have a solution:

Sell vendor specific forums!

For a fee of a handfull BTC per month, let the vendors have their own subforum within "Mining Hardware".
Give them some moderator privileges, like stickiying their own advertisement threads, but obviously, don't let them delete posts or threads.
Once they no longer pay their monthly rent, take moderator privileges from them, and leave the forum for a couple months, for users' complaints.

Okay, seriously, that's probably not a such bad idea, but do we really want this?

[Viceroy]

+1

this is the guy I post to help.
fuck inaba an the BFL long con!

No Performance, No thread:

Hi,

Just got a refund a few days ago.

I started a PayPal dispute at day 44 (I ordered and knew that if they did not ship by 45 days I will start a dispute on time).

I do not consider the rate at which they are shipping to be really shipping, because they lied on their shipping rates.
I don't have ANY problem with getting a refund by any mean under those circumstances.

And it's funny because BFL just announced the Monarch - I won't order from them but there is a shift toward more powerful devices, so I'm glad I got my money back.

I will NEVER AGAIN order from BFL. In 10+ years doing online e-commerce I've never seen people behaving like them.
The people in the BFL forums are like affected by the Stockholm syndrome : every time there is the slightest hope for something positive, they all get happy, and they don't see the big picture.

uski

Real customer with only 6 posts.

Stated policy to refuse any legal request for Refunds? Yes.
Advertising privileges pulled? No.
Threads are pulled? No.
Long history of the same ongoing problem? Yes.
Do they malign the very forum on which they advertise? Yes.


Consequences for Vendor? None.

[rebelrat]

The hate for the ASIC vendors is all too natural, as they pretty much  have hijacked the
Bitcoin Market, financed by the Bitcoin community, except for Asicminer, but their
prices were never competitive.

Every other vendor has been working pretty much the same Ponzi scheme, take
pre-orders and then use the money to pursue their own financial gain - the verdict
on KNC is still out.  BFL and Avalon are obvious scams, if you do not see this, then
you must be blind.

And no, this should not be in a different subforum.

[Bitcoinorama]

There is a difference between threads that are of practical use to the community; threads that inform and share one another's research, and threads that exist to abuse, vent rage, or multiple threads concerning a sole manufacturer spamming for free advertising. The latter should be removed.

I don't believe there should be sub catagories for each manufacturer, I believe that will lead to smaller manufacturers being overlooked.

I don't think there should be the recent volume of threads concerning abuse directed toward Butterfly Labs. Those threads should be situated within Butterfly Labs own forum. I sincerely doubt there is anyone here not familiar with Butterfly Labs inability to deliver on time, or threats not to refund. Quite frankly if people have chosen to pre-order without third party consumer protection from a secure payment method, then as adults, that's their own stupid fault. Those that did use a secure payment means can get refunds irrespective of BFL's claims. BFL's incompetence is widely known, especially in this forum, that's why BFL rarely comments here aside to antagonise folks for kicks. Likewise multiple threads about them serves no purpose other than to spam their name throughout the forum.

I do think threads such as 'wtf Avalon ship the chips' and 'Avalon Batch 3 refunds' do serve a purpose, they approach the same manufacturer, but ask for different response, for different subjects and different products.

Finally Manufacturers themselves choosing to thread spam should be warned before being quarantined to a different childboard, or banned.

Certainly many threads from the last month need to be removed.

[rustyh17]

I suggest perhaps a couple of sub-forums under custom hardware:

• TECHNICAL DISCUSSION (ONLY)
• MARKET ACUMEN (ARENA OF MALICE)

[ionstorm]

I think vendor hate needs to stay, or there needs to be a sticky topic where people can posts their experiences with the current vendors rather than create a new thread.  Maybe a "Vender Watch & Warning thread.  People need to be aware what they are getting into and how buying overpriced hardware that does not meet ROI because of shipping delays and poor customer service is pretty much a scam.  Its like a salesman at a store selling a pc worth $500 dollars for $2500 and the customer later finds out after the sale they were foolish in their buy.  I believe it is our responsibility as a community to educate everyone of bad investments and possible scams, bad shipping policies, bad customer service etc.  We are all representatives of bitcoin, companies that take advantage of customers is pretty much stealing in my opinion and we dont want to scare people away, bitcoin is supposed to be a alternative in our current practices with USD/fiat currencies.  Its our duty as a community here to educate people, help them make good decisions and be brutally honest with them and warn them that they could be making a mistake.  I think we need a forum review/vendor rating system in place.  Dont leave it to the mods to give them a scammer tag, let people rate each user/thread.  People need to be able to see problems/vender hate where they are selling.  I personally stay away from companies that dont have product reviews.

[Bitcoinorama]

How about a traffic light system for vendors with;

Purple                   Pre-orders
Green                   Shipped on time
Amber                  Late/Unreliable (+ 1 month)
Red                      Severe Delay/Dishonest/Incompetent (+ 2 months)
Black                    Scam (taken money and run, or blatant lie)

[rustyh17]

How about a traffic light system for vendors with;

Purple                   Pre-orders
Green                   Shipped on time
Amber                  Late/Unreliable (+ 1 month)
Red                      Severe Delay/Incompetent (+ 2 months)
Black                    Scam (taken money and run, or blatant lie)

Does SMF have a plug-in of this sort? I doubt we're going to get anyone to custom code
a forum upgrade.

[Bitcoinorama]

How about a traffic light system for vendors with;

Purple                   Pre-orders
Green                   Shipped on time
Amber                  Late/Unreliable (+ 1 month)
Red                      Severe Delay/Incompetent (+ 2 months)
Black                    Scam (taken money and run, or blatant lie)

Does SMF have a plug-in of this sort? I doubt we're going to get anyone to custom code
a forum upgrade.

Well you have a choice of smilies and exclamation marks available to position to the left of each thread title.

I would have thought a round circle with a colour code designated by mods would be easy enough.

[niko]

Only product-specific threads allowed, once you, or your apointee, receive(s) a working device. It is up to vendors to supply these, including an optional prepaid return shipping if they desire them returned.

No product, no thread.

This is guaranteed to eliminate the majority of madness on all sides. You would be left with legitimate vendors, legitimate customers, and an occasional shill or a troll, much like in other subfora.

I like the "no product, no thread" idea.
Shunt everything else to mining speculation or scam accusation.

I agree.

No Product, no thread.

Except it should be changed to:

No Performance, No thread(s). <===

The reason I say this is because BFL can claim they have a product. So they would then argue they can have their thread with the above idea.

So I recommend there be "Performance" = "A thread".

(snip)

Yes, I assumed that was understood. The moderators here would receive a product and make sure it works as advertised. It makes sense for them to get compensated by keeping the coins mined during the test-drive (for bigger units) or by getting the unit for free (for smaller units, at the discretion of the vendor).

We would still have screaming related to backlogs, canceled orders, etc. - like any other product forum out there. Still, all the screaming related to vaporware, scams, and failed engineering would disappear. I see no good reason not to implement this.

[Viceroy]

I see a big reason... what if the rig cost 50k and makes 10k per day. theymos should get to benefit from this for some reason?  If the site admin had any integrity he would tag inaba with the scammer tag inaba deserves.  All you've done is propose a method for theymos to make more money off the community.  Are you theymos sock puppet?

[ProfMac]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

I am glad that you are looking at this.  I am very glad I myself don't have to make it work.

I think that civil language is sufficient to construct clear and forceful complaints, requests for recourse, or warnings to others.  

I think you should remove the one post that bothers you the most each day, and give a reason why.  Wear fire resistant gear.

[greenbtc]

Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

Butterflies are animals - maybe that explains it? 

Does anyone have any great ideas?

You could start by honoring the voice of this community: 1011 people voted so far - and 786 (77.7%) said Give BFL a scammer tag.

What's more important for you? Money (from Ads) - or your integrity?

+1

I'm pretty sure the mods here are in a situation of Pot Meet Kettle.

The reason people are pissed around here is because you guys continue to support the vendors who abuse the community both verbally and monetarily.

You guys obviously care more about the money than the community, as it shows by your willingness to take money from companies who have decided to go down the path of being less than reputable in their business practices, so then we probably don't see this forum as anything different, and thus those who want to protect newbies from the scam that is BFL & Avalon, have to go to extraordinary lengths of being annoying and posting "service announcements" because you as moderators fail to do your job and remove the scum from the board.

[CoinChex]

How about a traffic light system for vendors with;

Purple                   Pre-orders
Green                   Shipped on time
Amber                  Late/Unreliable (+ 1 month)
Red                      Severe Delay/Dishonest/Incompetent (+ 2 months)
Black                    Scam (taken money and run, or blatant lie)

+1 this idea.  With a vendor specific forum, combined with a rating system on each vendor it would solve alot of these issues.

Inaba and BFL should have been tagged and banned by this forum.  They've been able to keep the spotlight off them by shipping measley quantities to certain people.  Not to mention they are clearly spending money for advertising here.

If you want to cut back on the bad chatter, then the forum should have a set of standards it adheres too.

[niko]

I see a big reason... what if the rig cost 50k and makes 10k per day. theymos should get to benefit from this for some reason?  If the site admin had any integrity he would tag inaba with the scammer tag inaba deserves.  All you've done is propose a method for theymos to make more money off the community.  Are you theymos sock puppet?

No. All I have done is propose a method for the community to protect itself from vaporware scams. If the product really exists, it makes no economic difference whatsoever to you or me who mines with it for a few days. It makes a big practical difference, however, to know or not know whether a product exists and performs as advertised. Would you rather have employees of the company secretly ot openly mine purely for profit, or a forum moderator mine and publicize the specs?

By the way, a company could also pay for the mod to visit them and test the finished product. Seeing your comment above, I suspect you would object to a moderator getting a paid trip, too.

[stormlighter]

It's out of control the way things are running right now. I hope you guys come up with a good solution. The "hate threads" are really dominating the forum and it's just to much. They are being posted in every section regardless if it belongs there or not

[ProfMac]

Only product-specific threads allowed, once you, or your apointee, receive(s) a working device. It is up to vendors to supply these, including an optional prepaid return shipping if they desire them returned.

No product, no thread.

This is guaranteed to eliminate the majority of madness on all sides. You would be left with legitimate vendors, legitimate customers, and an occasional shill or a troll, much like in other subfora.

Good rules are really difficult to make. 
This rule eliminates some productive DIY conversations.

[Viceroy]

I see a big reason... what if the rig cost 50k and makes 10k per day. theymos should get to benefit from this for some reason?  If the site admin had any integrity he would tag inaba with the scammer tag inaba deserves.  All you've done is propose a method for theymos to make more money off the community.  Are you theymos sock puppet?

No. All I have done is propose a method for the community to protect itself from vaporware scams. If the product really exists, it makes no economic difference whatsoever to you or me who mines with it for a few days. It makes a big practical difference, however, to know or not know whether a product exists and performs as advertised. Would you rather have employees of the company secretly ot openly mine purely for profit, or a forum moderator mine and publicize the specs?

By the way, a company could also pay for the mod to visit them and test the finished product. Seeing your comment above, I suspect you would object to a moderator getting a paid trip, too.

I am a capitalist.  I'd prefer just to sell a unit directly to a person and have them report.  I'm happy to sell my first card to JohnK. 

Your approach ignores shipping time, damage during shipping, ineptitude of the receiver....  All of these could be VERY expensive delays and they do not benefit anyone.

[GodfatherBond]

Bascily no - useless and non constructive wasted time.