Do we want to continue to allow various vendor hate in here?

[gmaxwell]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

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[davecoin]

I used to really enjoy visiting the custom hardware forum to view the progression of different hardware.  Now I visit and see a bunch of crap like this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281289.0

and

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278844.0



I'm glad to see that you are already moving some of these types of threads, and for that I thank you.  

Have you considered creating separate vendor subforums?  That may at least allow new members to chose what they want to be exposed to.  I understand that being protected from scams is important, but imo that is what the Scam Accusations forum should be used for.  

[k9quaint]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

Firstly, I'd like to note for the record, that humans are animals.

My solution:
1) make "concern troll" posts take the form of iambic pentameter.
2) make fanboi posts have to be haiku form that are also palindromes

The enforcement of those two criteria should easy to automate.

If that doesn't warm your cockles, then perhaps two separate forums for custom hardware, Shipping & Vaporware.
BFL singles & Jalapenos discussions would be in Shipping. Monarch discussions would be in Vaporware.

Make exit from the vaporware forum contingent on you fondling a physical example of of the device (in a vat of mineral oil and then posting the video on YouTube).

[Cyberdyne]

I'm pretty much against copyright laws as they exist today, but the one thing I like about the DMCA is that people can get in trouble for making false accusations.

Perhaps if people got a scammer tag for falsely accusing someone else of being a scammer, they'd think more carefully about it.

[erk]

You need to appoint some mods, and set some simple rules as a sticky at the top of the subforum that's having problems. The mods can then enforce those rules and people calm down pretty quickly. The OCAU forums I hang out on, if the mod thinks there is something offensive in a post, they snip it out, and put the reason in bright red where the text was that broke the rules, and give a warning all can see if necessary. They don't just secretly delete content without giving a reason, it's all above board.  Locking derailed threads is important too.

[KWH]

Pretty simple solution: IGNORE.

[YipYip]

You cant have your cake and eat it as well ....

Mods continually ignore the calls by the masses to give BFL & Assoc a Scammer tag or at least Untrustworthy

[Red_Wolf_2]

I think a temporary cool-down ban or block for people wouldn't go amiss. Say, for excessive personal attacks or unfounded accusations you get an initial 24 hour ban, then for repeat offenders it goes up, second offence 48 hours, third 96, etc, etc, etc...
I think a blanket ban on doxing people wouldn't be a bad idea either.

[Viceroy]

Mods continually ignore the calls by the masses to give BFL & Assoc a Scammer tag or at least Untrustworthy

^  this.  All the while BFL continues to advertise in this forum even though they do not deliver ordered product.


Red wolf is a shill for BFL and his thoughts are based upon his knowledge that the community at large is not going to take BFL's lies anymore.

Inaba needs a scammer tag and then a perma-ban; he is far more dangerous than Matthew ever was.
After that is done we can see who else needs to be banned (BFL fanbois like red wolf).

[southerngentuk]

You cant have your cake and eat it as well ....

Mods continually ignore the calls by the masses to give BFL & Assoc a Scammer tag or at least Untrustworthy

I also feel BFL advertisements should only be allowed with a warning attached.

------------------------------------------

Vendor specific sub-forums would help a lot (maybe on the chip level).

each vendor sub-forum should contain a mod sticky with factual warning for newbies and a rant thread for members to debate.

mods to point members to the rant thread for bickering/discussion.

[Red_Wolf_2]

I think a temporary cool-down ban or block for people wouldn't go amiss. Say, for excessive personal attacks or unfounded accusations you get an initial 24 hour ban, then for repeat offenders it goes up, second offence 48 hours, third 96, etc, etc, etc...
I think a blanket ban on doxing people wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Mods continually ignore the calls by the masses to give BFL & Assoc a Scammer tag or at least Untrustworthy

^  this.  All the while BFL continues to advertise in this forum even though they do not deliver ordered product.


Red wolf is a shill for BFL and his thoughts are based upon his knowledge that the community at large is not going to take BFL's lies anymore.

Inaba needs a scammer tag and then a perma-ban; he is far more dangerous than Matthew ever was.
After that is done we can see who else needs to be banned (BFL fanbois like red wolf).

I nominate Viceroy as first for making unfounded accusation. To be a shill I'd have to be deriving some sort of benefit from BFL or its associates. I'm not. I've waited like everyone else for my devices and finally got them. I have no pending orders with BFL for any gear, and I didn't even get a mug. Ergo, I'm not a shill, I'm just not a hater like Viceroy.

[Viceroy]

Alright you may not be a shill, but you are certainly a fanboi.  Now I understand why you defend Josh, because he made you a little bit of money. 

It's unfortunate you are unable to show any compassion for those who were completely screwed by Josh's lies. 

[niko]

Only product-specific threads allowed, once you, or your apointee, receive(s) a working device. It is up to vendors to supply these, including an optional prepaid return shipping if they desire them returned.

No product, no thread.

This is guaranteed to eliminate the majority of madness on all sides. You would be left with legitimate vendors, legitimate customers, and an occasional shill or a troll, much like in other subfora.

[k9quaint]

Only product-specific threads allowed, once you, or your apointee, receive(s) a working device. It is up to vendors to supply these, including an optional prepaid return shipping if they desire them returned.

No product, no thread.

This is guaranteed to eliminate the majority of madness on all sides. You would be left with legitimate vendors, legitimate customers, and an occasional shill or a troll, much like in other subfora.

I like the "no product, no thread" idea.
Shunt everything else to mining speculation or scam accusation.

[Viceroy]

Only product-specific threads allowed, once you, or your apointee, receive(s) a working device. It is up to vendors to supply these, including an optional prepaid return shipping if they desire them returned.

No product, no thread.

This is guaranteed to eliminate the majority of madness on all sides. You would be left with legitimate vendors, legitimate customers, and an occasional shill or a troll, much like in other subfora.

So then you can't have discussions about hardware you are building?

You need another category for what you want:

1) hardware you can purchase today (BFL would not be in such a place as they have no product to sell at this time)
2) hardware that is in development (lots of noise here, like the BFL monarch).

[southerngentuk]

You cant have your cake and eat it as well ....

Mods continually ignore the calls by the masses to give BFL & Assoc a Scammer tag or at least Untrustworthy

I also feel BFL advertisements should only be allowed with a warning attached.

------------------------------------------

Vendor specific sub-forums would help a lot (maybe on the chip level).

each vendor sub-forum should contain a mod sticky with factual warning for newbies and a rant thread for members to debate.

mods to point members to the rant thread for bickering/discussion.

Edit :
Maybe a caution button next to the ignore.
When the member gets to 50 cautions has posts highlight red with a warning in there signature.
This way the community can take its own action independent of mods..

bets on how long before a member beginning with I is bright red..  Danger Will Robinson, Danger

[southerngentuk]

I think a temporary cool-down ban or block for people wouldn't go amiss. Say, for excessive personal attacks or unfounded accusations you get an initial 24 hour ban, then for repeat offenders it goes up, second offence 48 hours, third 96, etc, etc, etc...
I think a blanket ban on doxing people wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Mods continually ignore the calls by the masses to give BFL & Assoc a Scammer tag or at least Untrustworthy

^  this.  All the while BFL continues to advertise in this forum even though they do not deliver ordered product.


Red wolf is a shill for BFL and his thoughts are based upon his knowledge that the community at large is not going to take BFL's lies anymore.

Inaba needs a scammer tag and then a perma-ban; he is far more dangerous than Matthew ever was.
After that is done we can see who else needs to be banned (BFL fanbois like red wolf).

I nominate Viceroy as first for making unfounded accusation. To be a shill I'd have to be deriving some sort of benefit from BFL or its associates. I'm not. I've waited like everyone else for my devices and finally got them. I have no pending orders with BFL for any gear, and I didn't even get a mug. Ergo, I'm not a shill, I'm just not a hater like Viceroy.

Perfect example of how threads get derailed and what we all have to avoid.  Off to the rant thread the pair of you !

[Red_Wolf_2]

I think a temporary cool-down ban or block for people wouldn't go amiss. Say, for excessive personal attacks or unfounded accusations you get an initial 24 hour ban, then for repeat offenders it goes up, second offence 48 hours, third 96, etc, etc, etc...
I think a blanket ban on doxing people wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Mods continually ignore the calls by the masses to give BFL & Assoc a Scammer tag or at least Untrustworthy

^  this.  All the while BFL continues to advertise in this forum even though they do not deliver ordered product.


Red wolf is a shill for BFL and his thoughts are based upon his knowledge that the community at large is not going to take BFL's lies anymore.

Inaba needs a scammer tag and then a perma-ban; he is far more dangerous than Matthew ever was.
After that is done we can see who else needs to be banned (BFL fanbois like red wolf).

I nominate Viceroy as first for making unfounded accusation. To be a shill I'd have to be deriving some sort of benefit from BFL or its associates. I'm not. I've waited like everyone else for my devices and finally got them. I have no pending orders with BFL for any gear, and I didn't even get a mug. Ergo, I'm not a shill, I'm just not a hater like Viceroy.

Perfect example of how threads get derailed and what we all have to avoid.  Off to the rant thread the pair of you !

Yep, agreed. I promise not to comment on it any further on this thread.

[Viceroy]

Maybe in the custom hardware section the vendor should be required to demonstrate that they have registered their products with the FCC.  That would keep all of them off the boards.  I think that would leave us with, what, zero legitimate vendors?

[Bicknellski]

How about the hate from the vendors will that also be looked at as well as threats to persons from vendors?

[Cyberdyne]

Maybe in the custom hardware section the vendor should be required to demonstrate that they have registered their products with the FCC.  That would keep all of them off the boards.  I think that would leave us with, what, zero legitimate vendors?

What's the FCC? Maybe it will leave us with hundreds of legitimate foreign vendors.

[Viceroy]

The Federal Communications Commission.  A body of the US Government that, among other things, requires all electronic devices to not emit radio waves not allowed by that category of device.  Any mining device sold to an American is required to be certified, no matter where it is manufactured.

 

[iikun]

I agree with two of the proposals so far:

1. Either subforums for each vendor and/or for delivered vs vaporware.
I think there will be too many vendors to create a subforum for each one but what doing so would help eliminate is the overposting of unnecessary threads by some of the newcomer vendors. We should remember that Burnin & Bkkcoins have both created hardware (albeit with someone else's chips) via only one thread. 4/5 threads for vaporware is totally unnecessary in my eyes. The overposting of threads leads to trolling as people get sick of what they aren't interested in coming up on the first page via 3 or 4 separate threads.

If this idea is adopted I would suggest a separate sub under custom hardware for open-source/DIY projects such as Burnin/bkkcoins so that their projects are not lumped in with vaporware vendors whilst they are in development. I think such projects deserve a little more understanding & patience than the "preorder now!!" crowd.

2. Action on the issue of BFL (and perhaps now Avalon) non-delivery. I'm not going to comment here as that is a discussion for another sub-forum but if people could see real action such as a warning tag on either their accounts or their advertising that would be a good start & people would feel less of a need to vent via threads. Inaction on this leads to overt flaming/trolling in all BFL threads.

[Frizz23]

Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

Butterflies are animals - maybe that explains it? 

Does anyone have any great ideas?

You could start by honoring the voice of this community: 1011 people voted so far - and 786 (77.7%) said Give BFL a scammer tag.

What's more important for you? Money (from Ads) - or your integrity?

[Bicknellski]

Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

Butterflies are animals - maybe that explains it? 

Does anyone have any great ideas?

You could start by honoring the voice of this community: 1011 people voted so far - and 786 (77.7%) said Give BFL a scammer tag.

What's more important for you? Money (from Ads) - or your integrity?

Butterflies are not Animalia they are Insecta.


Ideas:

1. Like the two subforums idea for vendors. Those that are 'legit' and those that are 'unproven' or 'untrusted'.

2. Make all vendors post self moderate topics and have a complaints subforum for vendors to respond or ignore and all outright scam accusations still go to scam.

3. Have all vendors use a registered and designated account that can post notices only about their products.

[eraziel]

I think a good addition would be to have a MANDATORY tag on threads stating the status of the product discussed.

E.g. vendors MUST state in their thread name if their product is either in design phase, poc phase, verified, in stock etc.

When a vendor wants to move from one phase to another they would have to provide sufficient proof that their product is in fact in the state that they are claiming it to be.
Then, when a mod is able to confirm said proof he would give a go-ahead to the vendor to change the status tag.

This would make it much easier to distinguish vendor's claims from facts.

It does not solve all the issues, but I think it improves visibility greatly.
And given that there are only so many vendors and products being developed it shouldn't be a huge burden on the moderators to keep track of products in development.

[Noogsy]

I might be wrong, but I have a strong feeling that most of the ultra-haters are sockpuppets of those companies.
When censoring them you have to censor all the good but grumpy folks too, and I guess thats what thei arer speculating on.
What is the ignore button for then?
My idea would be an ignore-counter below the avatar.
So everyone could see by how many ppl he/her/it is ignored. Like a reverse trust rating.

[nexus99]

How about a troll vote button? Someone gets 50 troll votes (or whatever the number is) and they are banned for 3 days (or whatever the right amount of time is).
You cant post about BFL on this site without the same group of people (who are probably just dummy accounts for other companies) destroying the thread. It is ridiculous.

[salihno71]

Maybe solution would be to open a distinct subcategory where such views would be tolerated while elsewhere would be strictly forbidden. So if one would not like to have any of that attitude, he would simply have to avoid that subcategory. First (pinned) post should be vendor trust level which would be moderated on regular basis based on current experience and would have listed ASIC vendors.

[Kj1]

Make some new subcategories:
- ASIC end-product vendor specific (one subforum for each big vendor + 1 forums for new announcements).  Eg i dont care about BFL, but would like to see new players on the market.  But, if i were to have a BFL order, i'd be very intrested in the "sue them" topic, and i wouldn't miss this with vendor-specific subforums...)
- ASIC chips production (tech docs & specs about asic chips)
- DIY
- hardware/software developmnents (also DIY) about asic generations, software, etc.
- group buys

Like the OP, i'm getting lost in these spagetti complaints threads and i'm losing the big picture.  The above isnt ideal but it might be a starting point.  The idea is that you can get the information you want quickly, even if there is a bulkload of complaints...  Thats part the information I guess.

Eg; try to find the asnwer in the forum to this: why is the diff skyrocketing?  It means asics are getting out; obviously, but from where and in what amount? 

[frankenmint]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

No offense BAN PEOPLE- Inaba is hella toxic.  I think any/all vendor related contacts should be banned...they have email addresses and vendor ecommerce sites - takes your fussing and questions to them there...not here. 

bitsyncom - GET OUT. 

You should maybe clone the trust system to add a reputation meter in too. Make it such that only moderators could actually ban people who suddenly get a negative 10 rating.  maybe if someone suddenly gets a negative rating they have their posts removed and banned...i know you talk about not wanting to take away freedom to compalin and feel how one chooses - but there sure is a lot of stupid crap that gets perpetuated by vendors which gets people who spent maybe tens of thousands of dollars on these vendors really pissed off and riled up.  That's all.


At most a single [ann] section where members can post all the new crypto news and its a single area in the forum where the BS and speculation on delivery dates and wether or not they are scams could be posted their.  I think the reputation would allow us to effectively get rid of the immatures, the bots, and of course, the shills.  Perhaps instead of instant-BAN you could relegate people back into the newbies section for X number of hours/days/weeks/indefinitely.

[Bicknellski]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

No offense BAN PEOPLE- Inaba is hella toxic.  I think any/all vendor related contacts should be banned...they have email addresses and vendor ecommerce sites - takes your fussing and questions to them there...not here. 

bitsyncom - GET OUT. 

You should maybe clone the trust system to add a reputation meter in too. Make it such that only moderators could actually ban people who suddenly get a negative 10 rating.  maybe if someone suddenly gets a negative rating they have their posts removed and banned...i know you talk about not wanting to take away freedom to compalin and feel how one chooses - but there sure is a lot of stupid crap that gets perpetuated by vendors which gets people who spent maybe tens of thousands of dollars on these vendors really pissed off and riled up.  That's all.


At most a single [ann] section where members can post all the new crypto news and its a single area in the forum where the BS and speculation on delivery dates and wether or not they are scams could be posted their.  I think the reputation would allow us to effectively get rid of the immatures, the bots, and of course, the shills.  Perhaps instead of instant-BAN you could relegate people back into the newbies section for X number of hours/days/weeks/indefinitely.

Liking these ideas...

Definite worth a look.

[PuertoLibre]

Only product-specific threads allowed, once you, or your apointee, receive(s) a working device. It is up to vendors to supply these, including an optional prepaid return shipping if they desire them returned.

No product, no thread.

This is guaranteed to eliminate the majority of madness on all sides. You would be left with legitimate vendors, legitimate customers, and an occasional shill or a troll, much like in other subfora.

I like the "no product, no thread" idea.
Shunt everything else to mining speculation or scam accusation.

I agree.

No Product, no thread.

Except it should be changed to:

No Performance, No thread(s). <===

The reason I say this is because BFL can claim they have a product. So they would then argue they can have their thread with the above idea.

So I recommend there be "Performance" = "A thread".

So this way, people who are ordering but aren't getting a performance out of their product can have their threads pulled until they do perform. This should also change Theymos positions on stuff. It must apply to advertising. If you cannot perform then you cannot bid for ads.

What stops any scammer from spending 100btc over 10 weeks and getting their vapor product advertised while collecting thousands of dollars in revenue for a product which has no performance? (and perhaps no existence)

Edit: If you think this hasn't happened, recall that BFL took orders in June 2012 and they maintained a thread and many customers. They only barely began delivery in April 2013 (actually more like May 2013. Almost a year later)

[PuertoLibre]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

No offense BAN PEOPLE- Inaba is hella toxic.  I think any/all vendor related contacts should be banned...they have email addresses and vendor ecommerce sites - takes your fussing and questions to them there...not here. 

bitsyncom - GET OUT. 

You should maybe clone the trust system to add a reputation meter in too. Make it such that only moderators could actually ban people who suddenly get a negative 10 rating.  maybe if someone suddenly gets a negative rating they have their posts removed and banned...i know you talk about not wanting to take away freedom to compalin and feel how one chooses - but there sure is a lot of stupid crap that gets perpetuated by vendors which gets people who spent maybe tens of thousands of dollars on these vendors really pissed off and riled up.  That's all.


At most a single [ann] section where members can post all the new crypto news and its a single area in the forum where the BS and speculation on delivery dates and wether or not they are scams could be posted their.  I think the reputation would allow us to effectively get rid of the immatures, the bots, and of course, the shills.  Perhaps instead of instant-BAN you could relegate people back into the newbies section for X number of hours/days/weeks/indefinitely.

A nice idea, but the problem is then it effectively makes a gag on something that can be purely subjective.

A person might hate my guts for instance and gather 10 people or 10 socks and ban me. Even though I never actually said anything untruthful.

[PuertoLibre]

Maybe solution would be to open a distinct subcategory where such views would be tolerated while elsewhere would be strictly forbidden. So if one would not like to have any of that attitude, he would simply have to avoid that subcategory. First (pinned) post should be vendor trust level which would be moderated on regular basis based on current experience and would have listed ASIC vendors.

The problem is that doesn't solve the core problem.

Complaints have to be hand in hand with sales. Not hidden in a backroom or subforum. If you have an angry customer, then everyone should know about it and the vendor (within reason) should feel compelled to do something positive about it...because it affects their bottom line. Take BFL for a perfect example, you have a problem?...Then FUCK YOU!

That pretty much means they can go to a mod and have their (customers) posts thrown into some back room which no one would want to go visit in the first place. Whether people like it or not, they should have the crap right under their noses so they know A) it exists, and B) it's stinking up the room and no one is doing anything "positive" about it.

=================

There are fake trolls/shills all over the place. There are known vendors with poor performance who don't produce...and frankly, they face no penalty for not producing on their orders. Some <cough> tell their very customers to go "fuck off" and call them liars even when they have established a legitimate order and face insurmountable challenges in getting a remedy.

CoinTerra or TerraHash can delay from their current release schedules to February or March and nothing bad will happen to them. They won't lose any advertising privledges, they won't face any moderator issues, they won't even be told anything which affects their business.

By throwing out the members who do point out the unremarkable truth, they have free reign. They can damn well do as they please with no one to say otherwise.

[kano]

Actually the real problem is that people turn many threads into a pointless wastes of time ... and then keep posting the same thing over and over for months ... like some mind numbingly stupid belief that no one knows or understands that a certain company is completely unable to deliver hardware on time Only they can see this and thus they must post this same information a hundred times in each thread ... and make themselves look like some sort of psychotic stalker ... and then start posting falsehoods since they themselves have realised there's no point posting the same thing over and over again ... so why not make something up ...

Bottom line, I see no real problem with posting negative stuff about companies, however, there are a small number of accounts on bitcointalk that if they were deleted, that would get rid of most of the "OMG I gotta post it again today coz no body knows what I know and I must educate all these fools who read this forum ... who didn't read it yesterday" crap these threads are full of.

[PuertoLibre]

For example Kano,

You got free hardware <cough> as part of your "development kit". You are slow to bash BFL but quick to bash everyone else. The companies which did not directly offer you hardware, you continually bash.

(Paid) Shill or Troll, take you guess.

[kano]

For example Kano,

You got free hardware <cough> as part of your "development kit". You are slow to bash BFL but quick to bash everyone else. The companies which did not directly offer you hardware, you continually bash.

(Paid) Shill or Troll, take you guess.

Sigh - yet again a post of lies - to pretend they are some oracle who knows all but yet cannot provide proof of the lies they post ...

[PuertoLibre]

For example Kano,

You got free hardware <cough> as part of your "development kit". You are slow to bash BFL but quick to bash everyone else. The companies which did not directly offer you hardware, you continually bash.

(Paid) Shill or Troll, take you guess.

Sigh - yet again a post of lies - to pretend they are some oracle who knows all but yet cannot provide proof of the lies they post ...

Yes, short memories we all pretend to have in sight of the obvious...let just say it is "off topic".

[kano]

For example Kano,

You got free hardware <cough> as part of your "development kit". You are slow to bash BFL but quick to bash everyone else. The companies which did not directly offer you hardware, you continually bash.

(Paid) Shill or Troll, take you guess.

Sigh - yet again a post of lies - to pretend they are some oracle who knows all but yet cannot provide proof of the lies they post ...

Yes, short memories we all pretend to have in sight of the obvious...let just say it is "off topic".

Yes please correct your memory.

[PuertoLibre]

No Performance, No thread:

Hi,

Just got a refund a few days ago.

I started a PayPal dispute at day 44 (I ordered and knew that if they did not ship by 45 days I will start a dispute on time).

I do not consider the rate at which they are shipping to be really shipping, because they lied on their shipping rates.
I don't have ANY problem with getting a refund by any mean under those circumstances.

And it's funny because BFL just announced the Monarch - I won't order from them but there is a shift toward more powerful devices, so I'm glad I got my money back.

I will NEVER AGAIN order from BFL. In 10+ years doing online e-commerce I've never seen people behaving like them.
The people in the BFL forums are like affected by the Stockholm syndrome : every time there is the slightest hope for something positive, they all get happy, and they don't see the big picture.

uski

Real customer with only 6 posts.

Stated policy to refuse any legal request for Refunds? Yes.
Advertising privileges pulled? No.
Threads are pulled? No.
Long history of the same ongoing problem? Yes.
Do they malign the very forum on which they advertise? Yes.


Consequences for Vendor? None.

[qwk]

Have you considered creating separate vendor subforums?  That may at least allow new members to chose what they want to be exposed to.  I understand that being protected from scams is important, but imo that is what the Scam Accusations forum should be used for.  

Separate vendor specific forums look like a good idea at first glance, but sooner or later, the vendors will "phase out".
In a year or so, we might already have a couple dozen hardware vendors, some with their own chips, others just sticking together components.
Also, a lot of the vendors won't be in business for too long, so eventually, you'll end up with forums for hardware vendors that no longer exist.
Also, some vendors may still exists but not have a new product for a long time. At the same time, they'll be in "planning phase" for a new product for some years before you can really tell that they're no longer on the market.
It could become a real hassle to find out which vendor forum should remain open and which one should be archived.

But, I think I have a solution:

Sell vendor specific forums!

For a fee of a handfull BTC per month, let the vendors have their own subforum within "Mining Hardware".
Give them some moderator privileges, like stickiying their own advertisement threads, but obviously, don't let them delete posts or threads.
Once they no longer pay their monthly rent, take moderator privileges from them, and leave the forum for a couple months, for users' complaints.

Okay, seriously, that's probably not a such bad idea, but do we really want this?

[Viceroy]

+1

this is the guy I post to help.
fuck inaba an the BFL long con!

No Performance, No thread:

Hi,

Just got a refund a few days ago.

I started a PayPal dispute at day 44 (I ordered and knew that if they did not ship by 45 days I will start a dispute on time).

I do not consider the rate at which they are shipping to be really shipping, because they lied on their shipping rates.
I don't have ANY problem with getting a refund by any mean under those circumstances.

And it's funny because BFL just announced the Monarch - I won't order from them but there is a shift toward more powerful devices, so I'm glad I got my money back.

I will NEVER AGAIN order from BFL. In 10+ years doing online e-commerce I've never seen people behaving like them.
The people in the BFL forums are like affected by the Stockholm syndrome : every time there is the slightest hope for something positive, they all get happy, and they don't see the big picture.

uski

Real customer with only 6 posts.

Stated policy to refuse any legal request for Refunds? Yes.
Advertising privileges pulled? No.
Threads are pulled? No.
Long history of the same ongoing problem? Yes.
Do they malign the very forum on which they advertise? Yes.


Consequences for Vendor? None.

[rebelrat]

The hate for the ASIC vendors is all too natural, as they pretty much  have hijacked the
Bitcoin Market, financed by the Bitcoin community, except for Asicminer, but their
prices were never competitive.

Every other vendor has been working pretty much the same Ponzi scheme, take
pre-orders and then use the money to pursue their own financial gain - the verdict
on KNC is still out.  BFL and Avalon are obvious scams, if you do not see this, then
you must be blind.

And no, this should not be in a different subforum.

[Bitcoinorama]

There is a difference between threads that are of practical use to the community; threads that inform and share one another's research, and threads that exist to abuse, vent rage, or multiple threads concerning a sole manufacturer spamming for free advertising. The latter should be removed.

I don't believe there should be sub catagories for each manufacturer, I believe that will lead to smaller manufacturers being overlooked.

I don't think there should be the recent volume of threads concerning abuse directed toward Butterfly Labs. Those threads should be situated within Butterfly Labs own forum. I sincerely doubt there is anyone here not familiar with Butterfly Labs inability to deliver on time, or threats not to refund. Quite frankly if people have chosen to pre-order without third party consumer protection from a secure payment method, then as adults, that's their own stupid fault. Those that did use a secure payment means can get refunds irrespective of BFL's claims. BFL's incompetence is widely known, especially in this forum, that's why BFL rarely comments here aside to antagonise folks for kicks. Likewise multiple threads about them serves no purpose other than to spam their name throughout the forum.

I do think threads such as 'wtf Avalon ship the chips' and 'Avalon Batch 3 refunds' do serve a purpose, they approach the same manufacturer, but ask for different response, for different subjects and different products.

Finally Manufacturers themselves choosing to thread spam should be warned before being quarantined to a different childboard, or banned.

Certainly many threads from the last month need to be removed.

[rustyh17]

I suggest perhaps a couple of sub-forums under custom hardware:

• TECHNICAL DISCUSSION (ONLY)
• MARKET ACUMEN (ARENA OF MALICE)

[ionstorm]

I think vendor hate needs to stay, or there needs to be a sticky topic where people can posts their experiences with the current vendors rather than create a new thread.  Maybe a "Vender Watch & Warning thread.  People need to be aware what they are getting into and how buying overpriced hardware that does not meet ROI because of shipping delays and poor customer service is pretty much a scam.  Its like a salesman at a store selling a pc worth $500 dollars for $2500 and the customer later finds out after the sale they were foolish in their buy.  I believe it is our responsibility as a community to educate everyone of bad investments and possible scams, bad shipping policies, bad customer service etc.  We are all representatives of bitcoin, companies that take advantage of customers is pretty much stealing in my opinion and we dont want to scare people away, bitcoin is supposed to be a alternative in our current practices with USD/fiat currencies.  Its our duty as a community here to educate people, help them make good decisions and be brutally honest with them and warn them that they could be making a mistake.  I think we need a forum review/vendor rating system in place.  Dont leave it to the mods to give them a scammer tag, let people rate each user/thread.  People need to be able to see problems/vender hate where they are selling.  I personally stay away from companies that dont have product reviews.

[Bitcoinorama]

How about a traffic light system for vendors with;

Purple                   Pre-orders
Green                   Shipped on time
Amber                  Late/Unreliable (+ 1 month)
Red                      Severe Delay/Dishonest/Incompetent (+ 2 months)
Black                    Scam (taken money and run, or blatant lie)

[rustyh17]

How about a traffic light system for vendors with;

Purple                   Pre-orders
Green                   Shipped on time
Amber                  Late/Unreliable (+ 1 month)
Red                      Severe Delay/Incompetent (+ 2 months)
Black                    Scam (taken money and run, or blatant lie)

Does SMF have a plug-in of this sort? I doubt we're going to get anyone to custom code
a forum upgrade.

[Bitcoinorama]

How about a traffic light system for vendors with;

Purple                   Pre-orders
Green                   Shipped on time
Amber                  Late/Unreliable (+ 1 month)
Red                      Severe Delay/Incompetent (+ 2 months)
Black                    Scam (taken money and run, or blatant lie)

Does SMF have a plug-in of this sort? I doubt we're going to get anyone to custom code
a forum upgrade.

Well you have a choice of smilies and exclamation marks available to position to the left of each thread title.

I would have thought a round circle with a colour code designated by mods would be easy enough.

[niko]

Only product-specific threads allowed, once you, or your apointee, receive(s) a working device. It is up to vendors to supply these, including an optional prepaid return shipping if they desire them returned.

No product, no thread.

This is guaranteed to eliminate the majority of madness on all sides. You would be left with legitimate vendors, legitimate customers, and an occasional shill or a troll, much like in other subfora.

I like the "no product, no thread" idea.
Shunt everything else to mining speculation or scam accusation.

I agree.

No Product, no thread.

Except it should be changed to:

No Performance, No thread(s). <===

The reason I say this is because BFL can claim they have a product. So they would then argue they can have their thread with the above idea.

So I recommend there be "Performance" = "A thread".

(snip)

Yes, I assumed that was understood. The moderators here would receive a product and make sure it works as advertised. It makes sense for them to get compensated by keeping the coins mined during the test-drive (for bigger units) or by getting the unit for free (for smaller units, at the discretion of the vendor).

We would still have screaming related to backlogs, canceled orders, etc. - like any other product forum out there. Still, all the screaming related to vaporware, scams, and failed engineering would disappear. I see no good reason not to implement this.

[Viceroy]

I see a big reason... what if the rig cost 50k and makes 10k per day. theymos should get to benefit from this for some reason?  If the site admin had any integrity he would tag inaba with the scammer tag inaba deserves.  All you've done is propose a method for theymos to make more money off the community.  Are you theymos sock puppet?

[ProfMac]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

I am glad that you are looking at this.  I am very glad I myself don't have to make it work.

I think that civil language is sufficient to construct clear and forceful complaints, requests for recourse, or warnings to others.  

I think you should remove the one post that bothers you the most each day, and give a reason why.  Wear fire resistant gear.

[greenbtc]

Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

Butterflies are animals - maybe that explains it? 

Does anyone have any great ideas?

You could start by honoring the voice of this community: 1011 people voted so far - and 786 (77.7%) said Give BFL a scammer tag.

What's more important for you? Money (from Ads) - or your integrity?

+1

I'm pretty sure the mods here are in a situation of Pot Meet Kettle.

The reason people are pissed around here is because you guys continue to support the vendors who abuse the community both verbally and monetarily.

You guys obviously care more about the money than the community, as it shows by your willingness to take money from companies who have decided to go down the path of being less than reputable in their business practices, so then we probably don't see this forum as anything different, and thus those who want to protect newbies from the scam that is BFL & Avalon, have to go to extraordinary lengths of being annoying and posting "service announcements" because you as moderators fail to do your job and remove the scum from the board.

[CoinChex]

How about a traffic light system for vendors with;

Purple                   Pre-orders
Green                   Shipped on time
Amber                  Late/Unreliable (+ 1 month)
Red                      Severe Delay/Dishonest/Incompetent (+ 2 months)
Black                    Scam (taken money and run, or blatant lie)

+1 this idea.  With a vendor specific forum, combined with a rating system on each vendor it would solve alot of these issues.

Inaba and BFL should have been tagged and banned by this forum.  They've been able to keep the spotlight off them by shipping measley quantities to certain people.  Not to mention they are clearly spending money for advertising here.

If you want to cut back on the bad chatter, then the forum should have a set of standards it adheres too.

[niko]

I see a big reason... what if the rig cost 50k and makes 10k per day. theymos should get to benefit from this for some reason?  If the site admin had any integrity he would tag inaba with the scammer tag inaba deserves.  All you've done is propose a method for theymos to make more money off the community.  Are you theymos sock puppet?

No. All I have done is propose a method for the community to protect itself from vaporware scams. If the product really exists, it makes no economic difference whatsoever to you or me who mines with it for a few days. It makes a big practical difference, however, to know or not know whether a product exists and performs as advertised. Would you rather have employees of the company secretly ot openly mine purely for profit, or a forum moderator mine and publicize the specs?

By the way, a company could also pay for the mod to visit them and test the finished product. Seeing your comment above, I suspect you would object to a moderator getting a paid trip, too.

[stormlighter]

It's out of control the way things are running right now. I hope you guys come up with a good solution. The "hate threads" are really dominating the forum and it's just to much. They are being posted in every section regardless if it belongs there or not

[ProfMac]

Only product-specific threads allowed, once you, or your apointee, receive(s) a working device. It is up to vendors to supply these, including an optional prepaid return shipping if they desire them returned.

No product, no thread.

This is guaranteed to eliminate the majority of madness on all sides. You would be left with legitimate vendors, legitimate customers, and an occasional shill or a troll, much like in other subfora.

Good rules are really difficult to make. 
This rule eliminates some productive DIY conversations.

[Viceroy]

I see a big reason... what if the rig cost 50k and makes 10k per day. theymos should get to benefit from this for some reason?  If the site admin had any integrity he would tag inaba with the scammer tag inaba deserves.  All you've done is propose a method for theymos to make more money off the community.  Are you theymos sock puppet?

No. All I have done is propose a method for the community to protect itself from vaporware scams. If the product really exists, it makes no economic difference whatsoever to you or me who mines with it for a few days. It makes a big practical difference, however, to know or not know whether a product exists and performs as advertised. Would you rather have employees of the company secretly ot openly mine purely for profit, or a forum moderator mine and publicize the specs?

By the way, a company could also pay for the mod to visit them and test the finished product. Seeing your comment above, I suspect you would object to a moderator getting a paid trip, too.

I am a capitalist.  I'd prefer just to sell a unit directly to a person and have them report.  I'm happy to sell my first card to JohnK. 

Your approach ignores shipping time, damage during shipping, ineptitude of the receiver....  All of these could be VERY expensive delays and they do not benefit anyone.

[GodfatherBond]

Bascily no - useless and non constructive wasted time.

[donch]

Hi,

the main problem I have as an (undelivered to) BFL customer is that I have to browse through endless threads to find the posts that Inaba/BFL_Josh pops up in. Mostly he just trolls the trolls, but sometimes useful info pops up. I'd propose that the public face of each of the mining hardware manufacturers starts a Reddit-style "Ask me anything" thread that they agree to answer the questions in. That way they can act as the magnet for the haters and genuine question askers in a single thread. It would be a great way for their potential customers to measure the accountability of the vendors in a useful way.

These threads should be moderated (there will probably be less than ten of them) by a reliable impartial community member. Only a single instance of each question by each poster should be allowed, to prevent the inevitable "Answer my question..." reposts.

I've previously asked direct questions to BFL on this forum and had a deflecting reply. Then the replies turn to picking fights with trolls. Then BFL disappear from the thread. This situation could be avoided via this proposal.

Cheers,
Donovan.

[nexus99]

Hi,

the main problem I have as an (undelivered to) BFL customer is that I have to browse through endless threads to find the posts that Inaba/BFL_Josh pops up in. Mostly he just trolls the trolls, but sometimes useful info pops up. I'd propose that the public face of each of the mining hardware manufacturers starts a Reddit-style "Ask me anything" thread that they agree to answer the questions in. That way they can act as the magnet for the haters and genuine question askers in a single thread. It would be a great way for their potential customers to measure the accountability of the vendors in a useful way.

These threads should be moderated (there will probably be less than ten of them) by a reliable impartial community member. Only a single instance of each question by each poster should be allowed, to prevent the inevitable "Answer my question..." reposts.

I've previously asked direct questions to BFL on this forum and had a deflecting reply. Then the replies turn to picking fights with trolls. Then BFL disappear from the thread. This situation could be avoided via this proposal.

Cheers,
Donovan.

I have seen other forums follow this strategy. It seems to work pretty well. Take a bit of moderating though.

[rchapoteau]

• Vendor Specific forums
• Temp Bans for anyone that makes a personal attack including vendors
• A sticky post in those vendor specific forums with a "State of the Union" address on where things currently stand with them

[warhawk187]

Custom Hardware -> ASIC Vendors and/or DIY Assembly, then subdivided by Company. With all the Avalon and BFL useless troll posts its impossible to even get any useful info out of this forum.

[dbasql]

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

This is actually a really funny paragraph. It's like pro wrestling around here. 

This will obviously calm down if vendors don't over promise and devices get delivered on time. I don't think people would be on here crying if delivery times were even close to what the vendor(s) predicted. I don't see this getting any better when more people realize they have been fleeced by ***, let's just hope *** comes through in Sept.
A couple of things I will say is the guys who are veterans might be bored with this stuff but I am sure it has helped some newer members or people just browsing to take a step back at some point. You can look at Ebay for two minutes and see pages of people about to get cranked with the difficulty curve.

The one thing I noticed right away about this site is it is uncensored for the most part for which I give major props....Considering this will eventually balance out I'm not sure about changing it.

[Xian01]

 The noise:signal ratio is becoming unreasonable.

 IMO, these sub-forums are becoming a hot-bed for experimentation in fraudulent behavior, sockpuppetry, and shilling. It's beginning to turn me off of Bitcoin mining entirely if this sub-forum is the primary place for discussion of custom hardware.

 I don't have any solutions, but I welcome any changes that work to make this community more healthy for Bitcoin's image.

[Stinky_Pete]

Posts that insult the readers should be discouraged (although I don't know how), it is possible to be emphatic without being rude.

Just a random quote from above (my emphasis)

BFL and Avalon are obvious scams, if you do not see this, then
you must be blind.

[greaterninja]

I think a certain amount of Vendor animosity should be tolerated by the end users of this forum.

Those members of this forum have rights to complain about a vendor doing crappy business.  It also brings a little transparency to the activity of vendors.

I would say that if a members does accuse a vendor of poor service, then they should back it up with screenshots of evidence.

On d2jsp they say pics or it didn't happen.

OTOH:   Some forum members flat out troll, call people scammers or post completely off topic information in the wrong thread / sub-category.

Those areas need more addressing to have a more humble community.

[-ck]

It is completely out of control and is unacceptable.

It's time to split off the threads and make the subforums suitable.

I suggest renaming "Custom hardware" to "Custom hardware development" and adding another hardware subforum "Vendor customer discussion"

[Ridicuss]

It is completely out of control and is unacceptable.

It's time to split off the threads and make the subforums suitable.

I suggest renaming "Custom hardware" to "Custom hardware development" and adding another hardware subforum "Vendor customer discussion"

I agree with this method. Moderation would have to be heavy. I mean busy moderator.

I bet the "Vendor customer discussion" subforum would be pretty busy, but it would allow the discussion of custom hardware in the custom hardware forum. Kind of hard to read about the hardware here. I am guilty of contributing. I would like to see a separation. This all being said I dont think the "Vendor customer discussion" should be hid away as a child.

[Jaymax]

To de-troll online fora:
DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS
Banning pigeons never worked.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_the_Trafalgar_Square_Pigeons

[PuertoLibre]

 
I submit my application for Forum moderator to eviscerate trolls. Just give me my battle axe and a reason <swoosh, swoosh> total moderation.

People will be afraid to use anything other than proper English and always polite English at that. [Tyrannical politeness....or else!]



Vote for me!

[Trongersoll]

TL;DNR

Firstly, this is the Custom Hardware Forum, I envision seeing posts about people modding hardware, or developing their own. Once something is in production, it is no longer Custom.

Secondly, Manufacturers are not Hardware. I expect to see discussions about how the hardware works, or doesn't work. etc.

if there isn't already someplace to complain about manufacturers/resellers, make one?

Thirdly, i really hate seeing the same people saying effectively the same things in multiple threads. I'd pick one to leave open, make the last post in the others a reference to the open one and then lock them.

[k9quaint]

TL;DNR

Firstly, this is the Custom Hardware Forum, I envision seeing posts about people modding hardware, or developing their own. Once something is in production, it is no longer Custom.

Secondly, Manufacturers are not Hardware. I expect to see discussions about how the hardware works, or doesn't work. etc.

if there isn't already someplace to complain about manufacturers/resellers, make one?

Thirdly, i really hate seeing the same people saying effectively the same things in multiple threads. I'd pick one to leave open, make the last post in the others a reference to the open one and then lock them.

I think your definition of "custom" differs from the moderators. They mean hardware customized to mine bitcoin, as opposed to general purpose hardware with software to mine bitcoin on.

[Trongersoll]

TL;DNR

Firstly, this is the Custom Hardware Forum, I envision seeing posts about people modding hardware, or developing their own. Once something is in production, it is no longer Custom.

Secondly, Manufacturers are not Hardware. I expect to see discussions about how the hardware works, or doesn't work. etc.

if there isn't already someplace to complain about manufacturers/resellers, make one?

Thirdly, i really hate seeing the same people saying effectively the same things in multiple threads. I'd pick one to leave open, make the last post in the others a reference to the open one and then lock them.

I think your definition of "custom" differs from the moderators. They mean hardware customized to mine bitcoin, as opposed to general purpose hardware with software to mine bitcoin on.

you are probably right.

[FCTaiChi]

It looks like it would be difficult to try to ban illegitimate vendor hate.  I do think that things would calm down if there were succinct descriptions of each companies that fully outlined the pros and cons pointed out by members.  This would give people a chance to vent, but have the discussion be turned toward logical argument.
If you wanted to expedite the process, posts bringing up items already covered could be deleted and referenced.  People would get the picture quickly.
This would have to be a community effort, of course.  Something like Coin Canary, but with more comprehensive community input, and big descriptions, as the site had intended.  I had been intending to pick that project up after Operatr got busy, but if someone else would like to...   

[CoinHoarder]

I envision Custom Hardware with three subforums.

-Custom Hardware- general custom hardware discussion
-Custom Hardware Manufacturers- every vendor specific thread (whether official or not)
-Group Buys-

We should start a thread in the Meta subforum or did someone beat me to it?

[warhawk187]

BFL and Avalon should have their own subforums since all of this forum is someone bitching about their shady business practices. It would do us all a favor to move all the BS where it belongs and keep the important DIY projects room to survive. There are at least 7 BFL topics on the 1st page and all of them are just people complaining about their poor financial judgment.

[CoinHoarder]

I envision Custom Hardware with three subforums.

-Custom Hardware- general custom hardware discussion
-Custom Hardware Manufacturers- every vendor specific thread (whether official or not)
-Group Buys-

We should start a thread in the Meta subforum or did someone beat me to it?

I posted a new thread in the meta subforums.

I was just lazy and quoted ckolivas because I think he had the best idea of how to arrange the subforum.

Go post your support here!! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282006.0

 

[Askit2]

I once posted asking (much less nicely then I would like to remember) for help with an order from a TLA. I had what I was fairly sure was a legitimate complaint. TLA had marked my order as shipped publicly and had not even manufactured it. My hope was to find a persons name (since I can use TLA's phone system to talk to them if I know a last name) that would actually listen to me, and have the power to do something useful.

I stupidly posted in a thread for the pool I mined for. It is run by a person that works at TLA. I do see how it was off topic. I was hoping that the pool I help find blocks with would help me out. My post got moved here:Bitcoin Forum > Economy > Marketplace > Goods > Computer hardware. No message was left for me to locate my thread.

Later I posted even more upset in custom hardware. Let me say this TLA had made products, shipped products, and had announced more then a week before that they had shipped my product. I was livid. Not initially as I first contacted them wondering about the shipping code that was un received. I finally got to talk to someone and their response was along the lines of we have a problem with your specific order type but I can put you in the que.

I see a point to people being able to A) complain when something really unexpected goes wrong and B) try to get help with a problem. It would be nice to not have to hunt for the problems when the sales are very clearly visible.

I really like some topics in custom hardware. I do see the problem and I added to it. For my part I am sorry. My order did ship eventually and people here did help me figure out why TLA's support staff wasn't helpful.

For me personally I would say that if vendors preannouncements are top level the complaints shouldn't be a forum over and three deep. I like the vendor specific sub forums at least for the preannouncement and delay types or when the complaints pile up make that (now eyesore) group into a child of custom hardware. Or at least have child boards setup for the complaints.

[ordy]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

so long as vendors' words and actions continue to incite, there will be justifiable 'hate' relayed in this sub-forum.  one option i see is 3 sections - one for vendors that are delivering at or close to advertised expectations, those that are delivering product but poorly, and those that are still purely vaporware.  at least then there will be 1 section without the 'hate'.  but i suppose the downside is that BFL will tarnish 2 of them since they would have 1 product line in the 'poor' category and 1 in 'vaporware'. so be it i guess......

[frankenmint]

Actually the real problem is that people turn many threads into a pointless wastes of time ... and then keep posting the same thing over and over for months ... like some mind numbingly stupid belief that no one knows or understands that a certain company is completely unable to deliver hardware on time Only they can see this and thus they must post this same information a hundred times in each thread ... and make themselves look like some sort of psychotic stalker ... and then start posting falsehoods since they themselves have realised there's no point posting the same thing over and over again ... so why not make something up ...

Bottom line, I see no real problem with posting negative stuff about companies, however, there are a small number of accounts on bitcointalk that if they were deleted, that would get rid of most of the "OMG I gotta post it again today coz no body knows what I know and I must educate all these fools who read this forum ... who didn't read it yesterday" crap these threads are full of.

wow I couldn't agree more with this one

[PuertoLibre]

Actually the real problem is that people turn many threads into a pointless wastes of time ... and then keep posting the same thing over and over for months ... like some mind numbingly stupid belief that no one knows or understands that a certain company is completely unable to deliver hardware on time Only they can see this and thus they must post this same information a hundred times in each thread ... and make themselves look like some sort of psychotic stalker ... and then start posting falsehoods since they themselves have realised there's no point posting the same thing over and over again ... so why not make something up ...

Bottom line, I see no real problem with posting negative stuff about companies, however, there are a small number of accounts on bitcointalk that if they were deleted, that would get rid of most of the "OMG I gotta post it again today coz no body knows what I know and I must educate all these fools who read this forum ... who didn't read it yesterday" crap these threads are full of.

wow I couldn't agree more with this one

This is proven by the fact that there are noobs (plenty of them) who don't know any better and pop into the forum wondering "what is going on here?!"

In effect, disproving Kano's vision of reality. (Go to BFL forums for a perfect example; they tend to import alot of BitCoinTalk talking points over there...slow but steady.)

[Yogafan00000]

Moderate nothing.  Let the ignore button do it's job.

Make a new sub-forum for each of the major manufacturers and 1 more for any new entrants to the bitcoin mining marketspace.  They can be promoted to their own new sub-forum if they make it bigger and appear not to be a scam.

[creativex]

Moderate nothing.  Let the ignore button do it's job.

Make a new sub-forum for each of the major manufacturers and 1 more for any new entrants to the bitcoin mining marketspace.  They can be promoted to their own new sub-forum if they make it bigger and appear not to be a scam.

+1.

The vast majority of really angry posts I see are directed at one company in particular and are totally justifiable IMO. Forum administration has continued to accept advertising revenue from this particular company despite the painfully obvious fraud being committed. Simply stifling the understandably angry dissenters is akin to engaging in the fraud yourselves. I'd urge bitcointalk.org admins to either continue to maintain a very light handed approach to post moderation, but if you insist on stifling free speech, then, at the very least discontinue accepting ad revenue from companies that are plainly engaging in fraudulent activities.

[k9quaint]

Actually the real problem is that people turn many threads into a pointless wastes of time ... and then keep posting the same thing over and over for months ... like some mind numbingly stupid belief that no one knows or understands that a certain company is completely unable to deliver hardware on time Only they can see this and thus they must post this same information a hundred times in each thread ... and make themselves look like some sort of psychotic stalker ... and then start posting falsehoods since they themselves have realised there's no point posting the same thing over and over again ... so why not make something up ...

Bottom line, I see no real problem with posting negative stuff about companies, however, there are a small number of accounts on bitcointalk that if they were deleted, that would get rid of most of the "OMG I gotta post it again today coz no body knows what I know and I must educate all these fools who read this forum ... who didn't read it yesterday" crap these threads are full of.

wow I couldn't agree more with this one

This is proven by the fact that there are noobs (plenty of them) who don't know any better and pop into the forum wondering "what is going on here?!"

In effect, disproving Kano's vision of reality. (Go to BFL forums for a perfect example; they tend to import alot of BitCoinTalk talking points over there...slow but steady.)

I am sure affiliates of certain companies would rather the noobs be informed by the ads displayed, rather than by people who have been through mybitcoin.com, pirateat40, mooncoin, Zhou Tong, and others. Every day, somebody posts on the forums "I ordered, but I can't get a refund". This is untrue, but there is a convoluted process for obtaining one. The same questions being asked over and over can be addressed by sticky threads.

Making a specific forum for vaporware product announcements (no working prototype verified by a trusted third party) would cut out 90% of the nonsense. Or just put all those threads in Mining Speculation. Also, for people who complain about content from a "small group of users" should be introduced to the IGNORE button. Press it 5 times and the forums are magically cleaned up! 

[ordy]

Moderate nothing.  Let the ignore button do it's job.

Make a new sub-forum for each of the major manufacturers and 1 more for any new entrants to the bitcoin mining marketspace.  They can be promoted to their own new sub-forum if they make it bigger and appear not to be a scam.

+1.

The vast majority of really angry posts I see are directed at one company in particular and are totally justifiable IMO. Forum administration has continued to accept advertising revenue from this particular company despite the painfully obvious fraud being committed. Simply stifling the understandably angry dissenters is akin to engaging in the fraud yourselves. I'd urge bitcointalk.org admins to either continue to maintain a very light handed approach to post moderation, but if you insist on stifling free speech, then, at the very least discontinue accepting ad revenue from companies that are plainly engaging in fraudulent activities.

+2

[ProfMac]

Moderate nothing.  Let the ignore button do it's job.

Make a new sub-forum for each of the major manufacturers and 1 more for any new entrants to the bitcoin mining marketspace.  They can be promoted to their own new sub-forum if they make it bigger and appear not to be a scam.

+1.

The vast majority of really angry posts I see are directed at one company in particular and are totally justifiable IMO. Forum administration has continued to accept advertising revenue from this particular company despite the painfully obvious fraud being committed. Simply stifling the understandably angry dissenters is akin to engaging in the fraud yourselves. I'd urge bitcointalk.org admins to either continue to maintain a very light handed approach to post moderation, but if you insist on stifling free speech, then, at the very least discontinue accepting ad revenue from companies that are plainly engaging in fraudulent activities.

I think the issue is not posts about delay or fraud.  The issue is about posts that have crossed the line, especially when they are spammed, or involve threats, or grossly (sexually) insulting.
Spam includes those  people who believe that sending the same message 50 or 100 times will somehow improve life for anyone, anywhere.

[Rival]

I think just a basic minimal amount of moderation would solve 99% of the problems.

#1) Posting anyone anywhere's contact information = ACCOUNT BAN

#2) Accusing anyone anywhere of criminal activity = ACCOUNT BAN

#3) Threatening anyone anywhere with violence = ACCOUNT BAN

#4) Multiple accounts = ACCOUNT BAN

I mean, lets be serious. These are basic forum rules pretty much anywhere. How hard can it be? If you can't abide some basic rules of civilization you can always start a blog somewhere and say whatever you like. Some people actually come here for useful information, not endless repeated diatribes of half-truths and accusations that really help no one. We get it. You are upset. But this forum was not designed for therapy, at least I don't think it was.

[cedivad]

Does anyone have any great ideas?

People lost tons of money in favor of the few chip makers and you blame us for complaining, instead of doing something to make people not to lose money when they first appreciate the bitcoin mining idea?

Please, review your stand.

[Rival]

Does anyone have any great ideas?

People lost tons of money in favor of the few chip makers and you blame us for complaining, instead of doing something to make people not to lose money when they first appreciate the bitcoin mining idea?

Please, review your stand.

Maybe you should complain somewhere else.

I don't recall the sub forum being called "Complaints about asic companies and feel free to shout down anyone else who is not complaining", although it might be a good idea to create one so we can build a fence around the complainers.

[PuertoLibre]

Does anyone have any great ideas?

People lost tons of money in favor of the few chip makers and you blame us for complaining, instead of doing something to make people not to lose money when they first appreciate the bitcoin mining idea?

Please, review your stand.

Maybe you should complain somewhere else.

I don't recall the sub forum being called "Complaints about asic companies and feel free to shout down anyone else who is not complaining", although it might be a good idea to create one so we can build a fence around the complainers.

While those outside the fence write love poems to the Asic manufacturers, I take it?

[Rival]

Does anyone have any great ideas?

People lost tons of money in favor of the few chip makers and you blame us for complaining, instead of doing something to make people not to lose money when they first appreciate the bitcoin mining idea?

Please, review your stand.

Maybe you should complain somewhere else.

I don't recall the sub forum being called "Complaints about asic companies and feel free to shout down anyone else who is not complaining", although it might be a good idea to create one so we can build a fence around the complainers.

While those outside the fence write love poems to the Asic manufacturers, I take it?

Occasionally there is good news worth discussing. Would be nice to be able to find it without sorting through cut-and-paste rants and hatred. Is this forum an example of how you want the curious to see the bitcoin community at large? Crying children purple in the face stomping their feet in defiant fits of rage? I would not walk away from bitcoin, I would run.

[cedivad]

Occasionally there is good news worth discussing. Would be nice to be able to find it without sorting through cut-and-paste rants and hatred.

Like the hashrate doubling each month without the customers being responsable for it?
Why don't you just subscribe to the bfl/bASIC/whatever newsletter?

[Rival]

Occasionally there is good news worth discussing. Would be nice to be able to find it without sorting through cut-and-paste rants and hatred.

Like the hashrate doubling each month without the customers being responsable for it?
Why don't you just subscribe to the bfl/bASIC/whatever newsletter?

So, in effect, you believe this forum should be dedicated to bashing companies and providing a venue for everyone to vent bile. Okay, you win. It's all yours now. Enjoy it.

[cedivad]

Occasionally there is good news worth discussing. Would be nice to be able to find it without sorting through cut-and-paste rants and hatred.

Like the hashrate doubling each month without the customers being responsable for it?
Why don't you just subscribe to the bfl/bASIC/whatever newsletter?

So, in effect, you believe this forum should be dedicated to bashing companies and providing a venue for everyone to vent bile. Okay, you win. It's all yours now. Enjoy it.

I'm here from longer than you and i know for sure that almost everyone lost money on mining except:
1) Chip makers
2) Josh
3) Avalon batch 1 (september)

This is why i can't stand to this anymore. Why do we need a forum to discuss how we get stolen, without discussion the people who stole us?

[KWH]

I think just a basic minimal amount of moderation would solve 99% of the problems.

#1) Posting anyone anywhere's contact information = ACCOUNT BAN

#2) Accusing anyone anywhere of criminal activity = ACCOUNT BAN

#3) Threatening anyone anywhere with violence = ACCOUNT BAN

#4) Multiple accounts = ACCOUNT BAN

I mean, lets be serious. These are basic forum rules pretty much anywhere. How hard can it be? If you can't abide some basic rules of civilization you can always start a blog somewhere and say whatever you like. Some people actually come here for useful information, not endless repeated diatribes of half-truths and accusations that really help no one. We get it. You are upset. But this forum was not designed for therapy, at least I don't think it was.

No. Scammers and would be scammers would eat this up like some yummy, sugary snack.

[k9quaint]

I think just a basic minimal amount of moderation would solve 99% of the problems.

#1) Posting anyone anywhere's contact information = ACCOUNT BAN

#2) Accusing anyone anywhere of criminal activity = ACCOUNT BAN

#3) Threatening anyone anywhere with violence = ACCOUNT BAN

#4) Multiple accounts = ACCOUNT BAN

I mean, lets be serious. These are basic forum rules pretty much anywhere. How hard can it be? If you can't abide some basic rules of civilization you can always start a blog somewhere and say whatever you like. Some people actually come here for useful information, not endless repeated diatribes of half-truths and accusations that really help no one. We get it. You are upset. But this forum was not designed for therapy, at least I don't think it was.

No. Scammers and would be scammers would eat this up like some yummy, sugary snack.

Not surprised that he wouldn't want anyone accused of criminal activity.

[erk]

I'm here from longer than you and i know for sure that almost everyone lost money on mining except:
1) Chip makers
2) Josh
3) Avalon batch 1 (september)

This is why i can't stand to this anymore. Why do we need a forum to discuss how we get stolen, without discussion the people who stole us?

I am not ready to say that I lost money. I paid about 56 BTC.  I was one of the last dozen or so in Batch #2 Avalon, and I only started mining on July 9.

What has your post got to do with the topic of this thread? Take it elsewhere please.

[-ck]

Moderate nothing.  Let the ignore button do it's job.

Make a new sub-forum for each of the major manufacturers and 1 more for any new entrants to the bitcoin mining marketspace.  They can be promoted to their own new sub-forum if they make it bigger and appear not to be a scam.

+1.

-1

It's not the forum mods' job to legitimise one manufacturer over another by giving them their own subforum.

[k9quaint]

Moderate nothing.  Let the ignore button do it's job.

Make a new sub-forum for each of the major manufacturers and 1 more for any new entrants to the bitcoin mining marketspace.  They can be promoted to their own new sub-forum if they make it bigger and appear not to be a scam.

+1.

-1

It's not the forum mods' job to legitimise one manufacturer over another by giving them their own subforum.

Given the amount of frauds and outright fakes that have collected funds and vanished by announcing their wares on bitcointalk.org, it might be time for the mods to at least differentiate between vetted and unvetted products and services. Perhaps such scrutiny might avert a future Pirateat40 or two.
As it stands now, as long as someone doesn't anger the community, they are free to emulate Bernie Madoff to their hearts content.

[Xialla]

*make different sections for custom HW, which exist and custom HW, which is in development/for preorder

and important question: why you are still taking money from BFL and allowing them to advertise here? just explain me why? every second thread in custom HW section is full of evidence, how they fuck up with guys here, every day thousands of dollars are lost in hand of these idiots and board is full of BFL preorder advertisement? company is without scammer tag and guy, which represent the company telling other "morons, idiots, cocksuckers" to his customers?

why you are ignoring strong voice of the community and still allowing BFL representatives access to this board?

[Xian01]

why you are ignoring strong voice of the community and still allowing BFL representatives access to this board?

 Because the administration of these forums don't have a conscience and are whores for the money.

[01BTC10]

*make different sections for custom HW, which exist and custom HW, which is in development/for preorder

and important question: why you are still taking money from BFL and allowing them to advertise here? just explain me why? every second thread in custom HW section is full of evidence, how they fuck up with guys here, every day thousands of dollars are lost in hand of these idiots and board is full of BFL preorder advertisement? company is without scammer tag and guy, which represent the company telling other "morons, idiots, cocksuckers" to his customers?

why you are ignoring strong voice of the community and still allowing BFL representatives access to this board?

This and this.

Unfortunately, I also understand that this is a free market (this forum also promote freedom of speech) and everyone should do their own research before buying. Theymos don't want to act like a central authority that choose which vendor can advertise and which one can't.

[YipYip]

I loled....

They have by inaction created this problem.........

[01BTC10]

I loled....

They have by inaction created this problem.........

In theory the free market should eventually cut the ads budget of BFL if they are a scam (or incompetent).

[-ck]

Somehow even THIS thread has turned to the same shit. You really need to do something about it now.

[k9quaint]

Somehow even THIS thread has turned to the same shit. Do something about it now.

Maybe the problem isn't the threads. Had you considered that?
When people ask about bitcoin, I send them to this thread first:
List of Major Bitcoin Heists, Thefts, Hacks, Scams, and Losses

That way, they get a feeling for just how often people get ripped off around here. It could be that enough people are finally tired of watching the revolving door of scams and thefts. Absent any intervention by the mods, the response from these people is fragmented and ad hoc. There really needs to be a higher bar to post content on the custom hardware forum. Perhaps there needs to be custom hardware in existence before you can discuss it here, otherwise it is just speculation about mining. A separate DIY forum would be useful as well, so that community projects can do their thing in relatively calm waters. Hiving off group buys worked well for that forum.

We don't need to solve everything with some sweeping overhaul. A simple rule change about eligibility of threads for this forum combined with re-education of the ignore button would be a good start. If it is insufficient, the mods can continue to tinker.

[FCTaiChi]

Somehow even THIS thread has turned to the same shit. Do something about it now.

Maybe the problem isn't the threads. Had you considered that?
When people ask about bitcoin, I send them to this thread first:
List of Major Bitcoin Heists, Thefts, Hacks, Scams, and Losses

That way, they get a feeling for just how often people get ripped off around here. It could be that enough people are finally tired of watching the revolving door of scams and thefts. Absent any intervention by the mods, the response from these people is fragmented and ad hoc. There really needs to be a higher bar to post content on the custom hardware forum. Perhaps there needs to be custom hardware in existence before you can discuss it here, otherwise it is just speculation about mining. A separate DIY forum would be useful as well, so that community projects can do their thing in relatively calm waters. Hiving off group buys worked well for that forum.

We don't need to solve everything with some sweeping overhaul. A simple rule change about eligibility of threads for this forum combined with re-education of the ignore button would be a good start. If it is insufficient, the mods can continue to tinker.

Yes education - or organizing the information could do wonders.  Also I considered saying that this subforum should be harder to post into, but I'm not sure if that would help.

Adding too many subforums would fragment the discussion and allow for the trolls and sockpuppets to run wild.  We should congregate all information and make a place for it, rather than try to outlaw it.  Maybe a separate scam accusations for hardware, or custom hardware.

[-ck]

You want the forum mods to be the police, and that has been discussed countless times before and they've made it clear they have no intention of becoming that. I've offered a solution within their framework. You want to resuscitate those discussions yet again? Fine, but I'm not arguing that one out with you.

[Yogafan00000]

-1

It's not the forum mods' job to legitimise one manufacturer over another by giving them their own subforum.

The mods will not have legitimized anything.  We've already legitimized the manu's by starting dozens of threads about BFL, another dozen about BitSynCom, KNC, etc.  We started those threads because we lent support at some point to those manufacturers and we all want to talk about it.  This is where the legitimacy was created.

All I'm suggesting is we group the existing threads into more manageable sub-forums for better visibility.  If we all collectively stop discussing BFL/Avalon/Bitfury for bad or good their respective sub-forum can be dropped/merged into the main forum. 

Nobody is going to be tricked into buying a Monarch because there happens to be a sub-forum about BFL on bitcointalk.org.

[FCTaiChi]

You want the forum mods to be the police, and that has been discussed countless times before and they've made it clear they have no intention of becoming that. I've offered a solution within their framework. You want to resuscitate those discussions yet again? Fine, but I'm not arguing that one out with you.

If you're responding to me, nothing of the sort.

I suggest renaming "Custom hardware" to "Custom hardware development" and adding another hardware subforum "Vendor customer discussion"

I agree that custom hardware is a little clunky, someone mentioned that it should be specifically for people modifying existing hardware.  Makes sense.
I could see organizing it differently.  Having a couple subforums with just the right goal would do wonders.  
What I was arguing against is making one for each developer.

Still, though there is a difficulty of policing here.  If you have a Custom hardware development page separate from the Vendor customer discussion page, where do you draw the line?  Are people allowed to ask questions in the development page?  If not it's basically just advertising by the company.  If so how do you decide if it's a valid question, or if the person should be redirected to the Vendor page?  Basically it seems that we would be back to the same situation of the thread needing to be monitored by the OP, deleting what was deemed to be off topic, or mods would have to step in.  We're back to the ignore button, right?

Edit- Yoga I like the idea, but how would you decide which people get subforums?

[YipYip]

You want the forum mods to be the police, and that has been discussed countless times before and they've made it clear they have no intention of becoming that. I've offered a solution within their framework. You want to resuscitate those discussions yet again? Fine, but I'm not arguing that one out with you.

I agree about free speech and not becoming police....but what about when the community has spoken

If we have 80%+ of the forum say that BFL should get a UNTRUSTWORTHY/SCAMMER tag and nothing happens what can you do

Was this not that same story with Pirate...!


 

[erk]

It is completely out of control and is unacceptable.

It's time to split off the threads and make the subforums suitable.

I suggest renaming "Custom hardware" to "Custom hardware development" and adding another hardware subforum "Vendor customer discussion"

I don't think juggling the subforums will have much effect, you will still have anarchy and 90% of the posts being off topic.

If the mods don't want to mod, then you need a system where the people can mod by vote. eg. by a score on the post, and the ability to hide posts below a certain score.

[miter_myles]

This place and especially this section has become it's own self sustaining "Troll Box" BTC-E style..

More section specific "neutral" mods, who can keep this place straight would be the best bet.  You can make a zillion sub-forums, but they will all mirror the main forum if it isn't policed and moderated...  without this action -> things will be much like the current one, just split in different areas...  You will still have the same clowns copy/pasting the same "OMG READ THIS VERY IMPORTANT WORD VOMIT ON WHY SOMEONE OR A COMPANY SUCKS BALLSACKS!!!1!11!!" in every thread or new thread..

If people see that you can't get away with all the senseless bullshit.. if they value the account/user name.. they will probably stop. 

Also - it would probably help to have a sticky thread for new people browsing this section... it would have to be a fact driven thread of past, current and near future outlooks.. neutral if at all possible..

[k9quaint]

You want the forum mods to be the police, and that has been discussed countless times before and they've made it clear they have no intention of becoming that. I've offered a solution within their framework. You want to resuscitate those discussions yet again? Fine, but I'm not arguing that one out with you.

The mods already move threads around based on topic. Adding subforums and changing the topics that can be discussed in them would not be asking the mods to do anything they are not doing already. 

For instance:
Conversations involving speculation about future products doesn't really belong with modding/overclocking/debugging existing ones. That is a clear topical boundary that could be easily enforced by mods using their existing activities.

[nexus99]

Wow, this thread got hijacked too.

[iikun]

It may simply incentivize sock puppet usage, but one idea would be to ban thread posts from professional manufacturers in this section. If they want to use this forum for advertising then let them pay.
People would be less vitriolic if this sub wasn't peppered with "pre-order now!" threads & instead promoted such topics as how to o/c or fine tune their hardware.

[Bicknellski]

Moderate nothing.  Let the ignore button do it's job.

Make a new sub-forum for each of the major manufacturers and 1 more for any new entrants to the bitcoin mining marketspace.  They can be promoted to their own new sub-forum if they make it bigger and appear not to be a scam.

+1.

-1

It's not the forum mods' job to legitimise one manufacturer over another by giving them their own subforum.

(Different Shit...Below)

It is for the fabricators to legitimise themselves and to band together to agree on standards and promote the industry to everyone in the community in a POSITIVE manner.

Have a Custom Hardware Association subforum that is moderated by members and users. All agree to set standards to post and publish in the subforum. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282030.0 That way the Association and Users are all responsible for the upkeep of the subforum based on a clear set ethical standards for businesses selling mining rigs, chips or diy projects. If you don't want to join (agree to the standards as a fabricator) you can still PAY the FORUM to advertise. That way it is free to advertize but you need to accept the standards before you can POST to the subforum. If you do not comply with the standards you are banned from posting in that subform and your posts are locked and moved elsewhere.

[Xian01]

I suggest renaming "Custom hardware" to "Custom hardware development" and adding another hardware subforum "Vendor customer discussion"

 I can't think of any reasons why this proposal wouldn't work. No sarcasm. It would immediately solve many of the problems in this sub.

EDIT: I might suggest refining this a bit further as "Custom Hardware Development and Announcements" and "Custom Hardware Meta and Community"; I feel "Vendor Customer Discussion" is too narrow to be genuinely useful.

[qwk]

I think just a basic minimal amount of moderation would solve 99% of the problems.

#1) Posting anyone anywhere's contact information = ACCOUNT BAN
#2) Accusing anyone anywhere of criminal activity = ACCOUNT BAN
#3) Threatening anyone anywhere with violence = ACCOUNT BAN
#4) Multiple accounts = ACCOUNT BAN

#1)
- does that include posting a link to somebody's facebook account?
- what about cases of escrowed contact information that should be published?
- what about posting a company address for complaints etc?
#2)
- what about accusing someone of a legal activity in their respective country that would be illegal in the posters' country?
- what about pointing out that a certain activity could be considered illegal under certain circumstances?
#3)
- no questions about that, but I could imagine that to be a slippery slope as well.
#4)
- outright no. That's been thoroughly discussed and it is "forum moderation consent" that multiple accounts are okay.

The point here is, it's really difficult to find a golden set of rules for a global community with different views, beliefs, legal systems, and cultural backgrounds. Things may look clear for you, but they most likely won't be for everybody else for any given case of the above.


I still propose the market solution, make vendors pay for "vanity forums":
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281307.msg3011400#msg3011400
That would probably solve the problem once and for all.

[qwk]

I suggest renaming "Custom hardware" to "Custom hardware development" and adding another hardware subforum "Vendor customer discussion"

 I can't think of any reasons why this proposal wouldn't work. No sarcasm. It would immediately solve many of the problems in this sub.

The reason why it won't work:
There needs to be someone to decide which "company" is eligible for a subforum.
Who will do that, and on what grounds?

Sell the subforums, and the vendors who want to be taken seriously will buy them themselves.

[kano]

I suggest renaming "Custom hardware" to "Custom hardware development" and adding another hardware subforum "Vendor customer discussion"

 I can't think of any reasons why this proposal wouldn't work. No sarcasm. It would immediately solve many of the problems in this sub.

The reason why it won't work:
There needs to be someone to decide which "company" is eligible for a subforum.
Who will do that, and on what grounds?

Sell the subforums, and the vendors who want to be taken seriously will buy them themselves.

Read the quote again ...

[qwk]

I suggest renaming "Custom hardware" to "Custom hardware development" and adding another hardware subforum "Vendor customer discussion"

 I can't think of any reasons why this proposal wouldn't work. No sarcasm. It would immediately solve many of the problems in this sub.

The reason why it won't work:
There needs to be someone to decide which "company" is eligible for a subforum.
Who will do that, and on what grounds?

Sell the subforums, and the vendors who want to be taken seriously will buy them themselves.

Read the quote again ...

Mine isn't working!

[dogie]

I think that there needs to be a subform for the big players like BFL, Avalon, KNC etc. On the front page there are 10+ BFL threads and its sickening. The BFL buyers dont even read nevermind search, they all think they are the chosen ones. At least this way we'd have somewhere to put them all.

And ps, I would still be a mod for custom hw if asked.

[Bicknellski]

I think that there needs to be a subform for the big players like BFL, Avalon, KNC etc. On the front page there are 10+ BFL threads and its sickening. The BFL buyers dont even read nevermind search, they all think they are the chosen ones. At least this way we'd have somewhere to put them all.

And ps, I would still be a mod for custom hw if asked.

There needs to be a subforum for reputable businesses, not just the "BIG PLAYERS", and it needs to include buyers all must agree to a clear set of standards BEFORE they post in this subforum. That is the only way to then MODERATE that subforum based on a clear set of standards for business practice. If you don't want to follow those standards then you can BUY advertising space same as before. If you agree to the standards and then run afoul of them the moderators there and users can ask you to clarify or rectify the problems if you don't you are banned from that subform, your posts are locked and moved from that subforum. It doesn't have to be about double accounts, threats of violence it just has to be about good business practices. Check these standards out. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282030.msg3024895#msg3024895.

These are clear simple rules to follow. If you agree to those there will be 0 issues. If you screw up you have to state why and offer a solution. If you don't BAM banned from that subforum. Simple it is based on those 8 standards and everyone agrees to help move the dialogue forward not backward. The idea is to find a resolution. If you start screwing around lying making false accusations etc you are banned be you a customer or fabricator. Simple. You can get back in the subforum if you offer a proposal to rectify the problem you created by NOT FOLLOWING the STANDARDS which can be held to a vote for reinstatement or a dialogue in the subforum can happen on the proposal.


1. Build Trust

Establish and maintain a positive track record in the marketplace.

2. Advertise Honestly

Adhere to established standards of advertising and selling.

3. Tell the Truth

Honestly represent products and services, including clear and adequate disclosures of all material terms.

4. Be Transparent

Openly identify the nature, location, and ownership of the business, and clearly disclose all policies, guarantees and procedures that bear on a customer’s decision to buy.

5. Honor Promises

Abide by all written agreements and verbal representations.

6. Be Responsive

Address marketplace disputes quickly, professionally, and in good faith.

7. Safeguard Privacy

Protect any data collected against mishandling and fraud, collect personal information only as needed, and respect the preferences of customers regarding the use of their information.

8. Embody Integrity

Approach all business dealings, marketplace transactions and commitments with integrity.

Moderators for this subforum should be willing to make fair and decisive judgements based on the 8 standards. Clearly there are many current companies that would not be able to post in this subforum given the standards nor would some "trolls" who go over the TOP in complaining. Win win. I have accepted the terms and will now follow those rules everywhere in the forums until we have a subforum where the Miners and Custom Hardware makers can resolve their issues and improve Bitcoin.

[af_newbie]

1. Build Trust

Establish and maintain a positive track record in the marketplace.

2. Advertise Honestly

Adhere to established standards of advertising and selling.

3. Tell the Truth

Honestly represent products and services, including clear and adequate disclosures of all material terms.

4. Be Transparent

Openly identify the nature, location, and ownership of the business, and clearly disclose all policies, guarantees and procedures that bear on a customer’s decision to buy.

5. Honor Promises

Abide by all written agreements and verbal representations.

6. Be Responsive

Address marketplace disputes quickly, professionally, and in good faith.

7. Safeguard Privacy

Protect any data collected against mishandling and fraud, collect personal information only as needed, and respect the preferences of customers regarding the use of their information.

8. Embody Integrity

Approach all business dealings, marketplace transactions and commitments with integrity.

+1
Most sensible list I've seen so far. 

BUT, if you apply this to existing manufacturers/sellers/resellers on a handful would qualify to post in Custom Hardware section.
Avalon & BFL (IBM and GE of bitcoin) would have to be kicked out (3&5).

Let the free market sort things out.  Use Trust settings for any violators.
Other than that, let them post whatever they want.  The more they say the easier it will be to flush them out.

[m3sSh3aD]

Maybe if you were one of these CUSTOMERS making these threads you MIGHT begin to understand WHY there is so much on here. There is no if's or buts, They ARE CON MEN, RUNNING AN ILLEGITIMATE COMPANY! (BFL)

Theres SOOOO much because although there is SOOOO much evidence against BFL, SHEEPLE STILL GO AND BUY/UPGRADE THERE STUFF!

IF BFL stopped conning/lieing/deceiving/abusing (and so on) then there wouldnt be so many threads would there!

IF you labeled BFL as a Bait & Switch company, You may see less cause people wouldn't end up falling for there BS!

Really all of you, There only one company in the BTC market that is a CONFIRMED SCAM and thats BFL. All others seem pretty spot on to me and are NOT run by convicted criminals!

[nexus99]

1. Build Trust

Establish and maintain a positive track record in the marketplace.

2. Advertise Honestly

Adhere to established standards of advertising and selling.

3. Tell the Truth

Honestly represent products and services, including clear and adequate disclosures of all material terms.

4. Be Transparent

Openly identify the nature, location, and ownership of the business, and clearly disclose all policies, guarantees and procedures that bear on a customer’s decision to buy.

5. Honor Promises

Abide by all written agreements and verbal representations.

6. Be Responsive

Address marketplace disputes quickly, professionally, and in good faith.

7. Safeguard Privacy

Protect any data collected against mishandling and fraud, collect personal information only as needed, and respect the preferences of customers regarding the use of their information.

8. Embody Integrity

Approach all business dealings, marketplace transactions and commitments with integrity.

+1
Most sensible list I've seen so far. 

BUT, if you apply this to existing manufacturers/sellers/resellers on a handful would qualify to post in Custom Hardware section.
Avalon & BFL (IBM and GE of bitcoin) would have to be kicked out (3&5).

Let the free market sort things out.  Use Trust settings for any violators.
Other than that, let them post whatever they want.  The more they say the easier it will be to flush them out.

I don't think that any company would make it into the forum. Someone is going to have a bad taste for company x, y, or z. They will cry and cry that the company is evil personified.

[bcp19]

Moderate nothing.  Let the ignore button do it's job.

Make a new sub-forum for each of the major manufacturers and 1 more for any new entrants to the bitcoin mining marketspace.  They can be promoted to their own new sub-forum if they make it bigger and appear not to be a scam.

+1.

-1

It's not the forum mods' job to legitimise one manufacturer over another by giving them their own subforum.

(Different Shit...Below)

It is for the fabricators to legitimise themselves and to band together to agree on standards and promote the industry to everyone in the community in a POSITIVE manner.

Have a Custom Hardware Association subforum that is moderated by members and users. All agree to set standards to post and publish in the subforum. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282030.0 That way the Association and Users are all responsible for the upkeep of the subforum based on a clear set ethical standards for businesses selling mining rigs, chips or diy projects. If you don't want to join (agree to the standards as a fabricator) you can still PAY the FORUM to advertise. That way it is free to advertize but you need to accept the standards before you can POST to the subforum. If you do not comply with the standards you are banned from posting in that subform and your posts are locked and moved elsewhere.

While this is an excellent idea in theory, I honestly doubt it would work in practice.  There is already too much hate and animosity and finding neutral people to police something like this would be virtually impossible.  I fear something like this would just lead to the moderators eventually being called shills or sock-puppets of whatever companies were allowed in to post. 

[Bicknellski]

Sounds like about 9 out 10 users would not be welcome to post in the subform either given the last round of replies.


The point here is not to say BFL is crap or Avalon is crap or 3 out of 5 won't qualify... the point is to have a place where people who want to sell using those standards can face the music, not run and try to resolve issues. If you agree to the terms 1 through 8 and someone is bitching and moaning for no reason they would be banned. Remember this would be a two way street. Neither crap companies no trolls would be welcome.

Ethics are simple to have and even easier to execute you just need to agree to professional standards. These would be something I think every buyer would want from their fabricator. If ever a fabricator wanted to corner the market following all 8 standards would insure your coffers would be full all the time. The problem posed was too much crap was being chucked around the forums. Well if we had an area with high standards for both user and fabricator then things could be a lot calmer and maybe we could even sell some units that come off a shelf for a fair price and delivered more or less on time... right?

Better to try this than to simply go down the same path and have 0 standards and a new place for all the bad crap to happen yet again. I for one want a place where people are expected to have standards it was never about a free marketplace it has always been about a better marketplace as obviously the free market has led us to this point where there are way too many people pissed off and not communicating effectively. Why? 0 standards. That is why we have the BBB in the first place to help both the businesses and the consumer. Let us give it a try can it be any worse than what is going on now right?

[PuertoLibre]

How do we make a self moderated thread? Anyone?

[millsdmb]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

Will we continue to accept advertising from buttfuck labs?

[ProfMac]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

Will we continue to accept advertising from buttfuck labs?

This post is really at the center of this thread.

Here's the deal.  If I want to discuss bitcoin or mining in a college classroom, I have to think long and hard about using your post, and by extension, this entire thread.  It does not matter that all college students use language that is more colorful than yours, the fact is that *I* dare not use that language inside a college classroom.

That leaves the choice of 1) lose one way to introduce bitcoin to an audience that is very good about accepting new ideas or 2) asking for your post to be removed.

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"
2.  Is there any reason that this question needs to be repeated 1, or 2, or 3, or more dozen times?
3.  Can you accomplish your goals by buying an advertisement that says, oh, "Butterfly Labs is 1 year late on delivery" and another that says "Butterfly Labs strongly discourages refunds?" instead of posting vendor hate?

[m3sSh3aD]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

Will we continue to accept advertising from buttfuck labs?

This post is really at the center of this thread.

Here's the deal.  If I want to discuss bitcoin or mining in a college classroom, I have to think long and hard about using your post, and by extension, this entire thread.  It does not matter that all college students use language that is more colorful than yours, the fact is that *I* dare not use that language inside a college classroom.

That leaves the choice of 1) lose one way to introduce bitcoin to an audience that is very good about accepting new ideas or 2) asking for your post to be removed.

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"
2.  Is there any reason that this question needs to be repeated 1, or 2, or 3, or more dozen times?
3.  Can you accomplish your goals by buying an advertisement that says, oh, "Butterfly Labs is 1 year late on delivery" and another that says "Butterfly Labs strongly discourages refunds?" instead of posting vendor hate?

Really dude, get off the high horse (and everyone who thinks 'swearing' is bad) and realise its human expression and isnt bad. If i told you jump off a cliff would you, So why believe it when your told swearing is bad? the word FUCK as more uses than almost any other word out there, and not all are dirrogitive

Do you think kids don't know this shit from the age of 7 or less? It's called making mountains out of moul hills and i see it everywhere about just about everything.

Buttfucker labs is what i and many people call them for good reason, THEY LIKE BUTTFUCKING PEOPLE!

Ah, im outa here, i remember why i stopped coming to these forums now!

[frankenmint]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

You know I've got a big fat FUCK YOU to gmaxwell for still accepting bfl ad money Sir.

[qwk]

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"

Really dude, get off the high horse

That is a valid question. Why do you chose not to answer it?

ProfMac has a valid point, he deserves an answer. If only for educational purposes. Here's your chance to prove that you may actually contribute to bitcoin.

Ah, im outa here, i remember why i stopped coming to these forums now!

Somehow I have my doubts.

[2112]

Will we continue to accept advertising from buttfuck labs?

This post is really at the center of this thread.

Here's the deal.  If I want to discuss bitcoin or mining in a college classroom, I have to think long and hard about using your post, and by extension, this entire thread.  It does not matter that all college students use language that is more colorful than yours, the fact is that *I* dare not use that language inside a college classroom.

That leaves the choice of 1) lose one way to introduce bitcoin to an audience that is very good about accepting new ideas or 2) asking for your post to be removed.

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"
2.  Is there any reason that this question needs to be repeated 1, or 2, or 3, or more dozen times?
3.  Can you accomplish your goals by buying an advertisement that says, oh, "Butterfly Labs is 1 year late on delivery" and another that says "Butterfly Labs strongly discourages refunds?" instead of posting vendor hate?

Seriously, you do have a 3rd choice: get off your high horse. I'm positive that the college classroom can deal with some coprolalia in the source materials. This completely isn't a problem and in fact helps explaining the psychological background in the Bitcoin millieu. If you personally somehow can't deal with it then seek advice from the colleagues amongst the faculty (e.g. gender studies).

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I just now found this thread. Don't know how I missed it. Only read the OP to date.

Just to let everybody know that I will significantly tone down my vapid, vacuous, vile verbiage.

[m3sSh3aD]

I just now found this thread. Don't know how I missed it. Only read the OP to date.

Just to let everybody know that I will significantly tone down my vapid, vacuous, vile verbiage.

Im guessing your the informous PG i been told about. Looks like you do bow down to smack tards which is what i presumed (mother of all fuck ups). Some dude with 19 at the end of his name told me you agreed to disagree with him on how retarded he is, What does that make you?

Sorry dude, Facts are facts!

[m3sSh3aD]

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"

Really dude, get off the high horse

That is a valid question. Why do you chose not to answer it?

ProfMac has a valid point, he deserves an answer. If only for educational purposes. Here's your chance to prove that you may actually contribute to bitcoin.

Ah, im outa here, i remember why i stopped coming to these forums now!

Somehow I have my doubts.

I did answer his question AFTER your quoted section. Bother to read before you post? Shit man, I left an essay on another post for the previously mention 'mofo19' above.

And yes, Im here biatch

[CoinHoarder]

8 pages of replies here and only 2 people can go over to meta subforum and support this initiative?

Please, more people need to go support this if anything is to be done: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282006.0

[bcp19]

I just now found this thread. Don't know how I missed it. Only read the OP to date.

Just to let everybody know that I will significantly tone down my vapid, vacuous, vile verbiage.

Im guessing your the informous PG i been told about. Looks like you do bow down to smack tards which is what i presumed (mother of all fuck ups). Some dude with 19 at the end of his name told me you agreed to disagree with him on how retarded he is, What does that make you?

Sorry dude, Facts are facts!

Sadly, people just like you are why this thread got started.  Since you seem to have been gone and missed a lot, you sure make a lot of assumptions on things you clearly have no knowledge of.  PG there has had something like 5 anti-BFL threads running for quite some time.  He was invited personally by Josh to visit BFL and determine for himself the truth of things, so ON HIS OWN, he decided to stop the presses and wait until he made his visit and found out first hand what was going on.  Just cause you are too lazy to find out the truth though, you assume someone bullied him into being quiet.  The only person that can Muzzle PG is PG... too bad you do not have the intelligence to understand that on your own.

Now, please stop adding to the hate and leave.  

[k9quaint]

He was invited personally by Josh to visit BFL and determine for himself the truth of things, so ON HIS OWN, he decided to stop the presses and wait until he made his visit and found out first hand what was going on.  Just cause you are too lazy to find out the truth though, you assume someone bullied him into being quiet.  
<insults snipped>

This is what the community has been agitating for. Transparency.
Many of us have lived through this list:
List of Major Bitcoin Heists, Thefts, Hacks, Scams, and Losses
When a company fails to deliver, they don't get a free pass anymore. The company gets raked over the coals now, because the number of people who have been ripped off at some point in the Bitcoin ecosystem has grown large enough that they cannot be shouted down by a few white knights anymore. Look at how fast the tables turned on Avalon.

Early on in Bitcoin, people were naive. Now, there are a lot more people with burned fingers. There are a lot more people in general. Now, when white knights mount a defense on the forums, it erupts into a conflagration that grows rather than subsides.

The rise in the number of threads is due to an increase in population of the Bitcoin community as much as an increase in vendor hate. Also, since most mining is done by ASICs now, all modern mining information is either in the Custom Hardware or the Group Buys. Custom Hardware needs to be split up into subforums that can serve as proper homes for the different sorts of discussions.

[bcp19]

He was invited personally by Josh to visit BFL and determine for himself the truth of things, so ON HIS OWN, he decided to stop the presses and wait until he made his visit and found out first hand what was going on.  Just cause you are too lazy to find out the truth though, you assume someone bullied him into being quiet.  
<insults snipped>

This is what the community has been agitating for. Transparency.
Many of us have lived through this list:
List of Major Bitcoin Heists, Thefts, Hacks, Scams, and Losses
When a company fails to deliver, they don't get a free pass anymore. The company gets raked over the coals now, because the number of people who have been ripped off at some point in the Bitcoin ecosystem has grown large enough that they cannot be shouted down by a few white knights anymore. Look at how fast the tables turned on Avalon.

Early on in Bitcoin, people were naive. Now, there are a lot more people with burned fingers. There are a lot more people in general. Now, when white knights mount a defense on the forums, it erupts into a conflagration that grows rather than subsides.

The rise in the number of threads is due to an increase in population of the Bitcoin community as much as an increase in vendor hate. Also, since most mining is done by ASICs now, all modern mining information is either in the Custom Hardware or the Group Buys. Custom Hardware needs to be split up into subforums that can serve as proper homes for the different sorts of discussions.

You do make very good points.  The bitcoin community is very much in the "Burn me once shame on you, burn me twice and I'm going ballistic" frame of mind nowadays.  Your 'white knights' have dwindled though (mostly through being repeatedly shouted down) and anymore it seems anyone standing up for any questionable company become a target for unwarranted attacks, derision and out-right flames.  It'd be nice if things could change, but only time will tell.

[Bicknellski]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

Will we continue to accept advertising from buttfuck labs?

This post is really at the center of this thread.

Here's the deal.  If I want to discuss bitcoin or mining in a college classroom, I have to think long and hard about using your post, and by extension, this entire thread.  It does not matter that all college students use language that is more colorful than yours, the fact is that *I* dare not use that language inside a college classroom.

That leaves the choice of 1) lose one way to introduce bitcoin to an audience that is very good about accepting new ideas or 2) asking for your post to be removed.

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"
2.  Is there any reason that this question needs to be repeated 1, or 2, or 3, or more dozen times?
3.  Can you accomplish your goals by buying an advertisement that says, oh, "Butterfly Labs is 1 year late on delivery" and another that says "Butterfly Labs strongly discourages refunds?" instead of posting vendor hate?

Really dude, get off the high horse (and everyone who thinks 'swearing' is bad) and realise its human expression and isnt bad. If i told you jump off a cliff would you, So why believe it when your told swearing is bad? the word FUCK as more uses than almost any other word out there, and not all are dirrogitive

Do you think kids don't know this shit from the age of 7 or less? It's called making mountains out of moul hills and i see it everywhere about just about everything.

Buttfucker labs is what i and many people call them for good reason, THEY LIKE BUTTFUCKING PEOPLE!

Ah, im outa here, i remember why i stopped coming to these forums now!

The way I see it is we need a much higher horse to for everyone. Playing the muck raking game puts us into the situation of always burying the important information and those acting unethically continue to get away with that behavior. We need to change the whole dialogue and get it off the BAD companies and put the dialogue into the GOOD companies. Meaning we need a subforum to do just that which requires standards to be met and upheld. Otherwise we continue this merry go round.

I would add that there may infact be some fault to lay at the feet of the forum owners / moderators if this comes to a law suit, given that they seem to take no action when there seems to be quite credible evidence that the advertising being posted is in fact very misleading or even outright fraud. What policies does this forum have to protect people from that. I am all for the free market but there is something called truth in advertising for a reason right? Some of the blame for all this acrimony rests squarely on the forum for not doing very much of anything to protect the interest of the users leaving it up to people to rightly and justly rise up and warn others but as always it quickly degrades into what we see since there is a LACK of standards. Ignoring the forum users plight like this is really negligence if you ask me and is tantamount to unprofessionalism.

[m3sSh3aD]

I just now found this thread. Don't know how I missed it. Only read the OP to date.

Just to let everybody know that I will significantly tone down my vapid, vacuous, vile verbiage.

Im guessing your the informous PG i been told about. Looks like you do bow down to smack tards which is what i presumed (mother of all fuck ups). Some dude with 19 at the end of his name told me you agreed to disagree with him on how retarded he is, What does that make you?

Sorry dude, Facts are facts!

Sadly, people just like you are why this thread got started.  Since you seem to have been gone and missed a lot, you sure make a lot of assumptions on things you clearly have no knowledge of.  PG there has had something like 5 anti-BFL threads running for quite some time.  He was invited personally by Josh to visit BFL and determine for himself the truth of things, so ON HIS OWN, he decided to stop the presses and wait until he made his visit and found out first hand what was going on.  Just cause you are too lazy to find out the truth though, you assume someone bullied him into being quiet.  The only person that can Muzzle PG is PG... too bad you do not have the intelligence to understand that on your own.

Now, please stop adding to the hate and leave.  

Go fuck yourself, I'm a customer who as been butt fucked by bfL and if you bother to look, the last time I was on here was years ago when I was helping people with rigs/harware. Now I'm here making sure people don't keep falling for bfl  labs, Which they still are. So until people get the picture, the hate ain't going stop flowing! Until bfl prove they are changing there practices, the hate will flow! As for pg, I heard about him actually and I just thought what a smug, fell for that old trick!

Like the federal reserve saying to Germany it can't see its own gold! Fucking insane! They can only look into one room was there next reply ha ha. Anyone get the feeling the feds...... have no gold.... cause they sold it all to artificially keep the price of gold down. Just like the 100'000 1oz bars they sold from UK's vaults between Feb and June!

I'm sorry dude but people who know anything about tech can see what bfl is doing. I don't actually think your a shill no more if that makes you feel better but the fact that your trying keep an even sided argument is futile when more and more people are going get buttfucked by these labs! Its only going get worse as more people realise the truth!

I don't care who people are or what there title is, there made from the same stuff as myself which makes them no better or worse than me until Ive evaluated there actions. And bfls actions are fucking disgusting! They banned me for wanting to help the dude who lost his mt gox and bit stamp account! Oclhashcat can crack 55 character passwords now in 2 days on  6990 GPU! Some on updated it and its a game changer! Add 2x6990 = 1 day... and it support and 128 video cards so 64x6990's would take like... a minute ha ha.

Its that simple dude! Why are you defending them when you have a order for  5ghash unit in June! You do realise you'll never see that?

[peetah]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

Will we continue to accept advertising from buttfuck labs?

This post is really at the center of this thread.

Here's the deal.  If I want to discuss bitcoin or mining in a college classroom, I have to think long and hard about using your post, and by extension, this entire thread.  It does not matter that all college students use language that is more colorful than yours, the fact is that *I* dare not use that language inside a college classroom.

That leaves the choice of 1) lose one way to introduce bitcoin to an audience that is very good about accepting new ideas or 2) asking for your post to be removed.

1.  Is there any reason that you could not have written "Butterfly Labs?"
2.  Is there any reason that this question needs to be repeated 1, or 2, or 3, or more dozen times?
3.  Can you accomplish your goals by buying an advertisement that says, oh, "Butterfly Labs is 1 year late on delivery" and another that says "Butterfly Labs strongly discourages refunds?" instead of posting vendor hate?

Really dude, get off the high horse (and everyone who thinks 'swearing' is bad) and realise its human expression and isnt bad. If i told you jump off a cliff would you, So why believe it when your told swearing is bad? the word FUCK as more uses than almost any other word out there, and not all are dirrogitive

Do you think kids don't know this shit from the age of 7 or less? It's called making mountains out of moul hills and i see it everywhere about just about everything.

Buttfucker labs is what i and many people call them for good reason, THEY LIKE BUTTFUCKING PEOPLE!

Ah, im outa here, i remember why i stopped coming to these forums now!

The way I see it is we need a much higher horse to for everyone. Playing the muck raking game puts us into the situation of always burying the important information and those acting unethically continue to get away with that behavior. We need to change the whole dialogue and get it off the BAD companies and put the dialogue into the GOOD companies. Meaning we need a subforum to do just that which requires standards to be met and upheld. Otherwise we continue this merry go round.

I would add that there may infact be some fault to lay at the feet of the forum owners / moderators if this comes to a law suit, given that they seem to take no action when there seems to be quite credible evidence that the advertising being posted is in fact very misleading or even outright fraud. What policies does this forum have to protect people from that. I am all for the free market but there is something called truth in advertising for a reason right? Some of the blame for all this acrimony rests squarely on the forum for not doing very much of anything to protect the interest of the users leaving it up to people to rightly and justly rise up and warn others but as always it quickly degrades into what we see since there is a LACK of standards. Ignoring the forum users plight like this is really negligence if you ask me and is tantamount to unprofessionalism.

Bingo.

I waded through pages on BS to find that I should have just read the last page.

The vendors currently have WAY too much bargaining power, to the point where buyers are at best investors and at worst losers with no legal recourse. This forum serves buyers primarily because against such malpractices the only means of effective recourse is sharing of information.

Not doing much of anything is a factor of causality. How?  When the forum organizes itself to vote 1000 votes in overwhelming majority to label a certain vendor, what the forum goers are saying is that they would rather stop hating and let the common consensus have their say (sounds terribly bitcoin doesn't it?). The point of this is to clear up the hatred, and waste of space. At the same time it is a very effective means of getting the vendors to clean up their act. Done. Solution right there on your lap. Ready and waiting. For eternity.

So. When the proposition arises that we should stop all the hate and how, I find it terribly odd that only after 8 pages of post has somebody dared to point the finger squarely at the OP.

Or to put in more directly, just do what you're supposed to. If you can't then set up a sub forum for somebody who  can.

[bcp19]

Bingo.

I waded through pages on BS to find that I should have just read the last page.

The vendors currently have WAY too much bargaining power, to the point where buyers are at best investors and at worst losers with no legal recourse. This forum serves buyers primarily because against such malpractices the only means of effective recourse is sharing of information.

Not doing much of anything is a factor of causality. How?  When the forum organizes itself to vote 1000 votes in overwhelming majority to label a certain vendor, what the forum goers are saying is that they would rather stop hating and let the common consensus have their say (sounds terribly bitcoin doesn't it?). The point of this is to clear up the hatred, and waste of space. At the same time it is a very effective means of getting the vendors to clean up their act. Done. Solution right there on your lap. Ready and waiting. For eternity.

So. When the proposition arises that we should stop all the hate and how, I find it terribly odd that only after 8 pages of post has somebody dared to point the finger squarely at the OP.

Or to put in more directly, just do what you're supposed to. If you can't then set up a sub forum for somebody who  can.

You've actually hit the nail on the head, but refuse to see it.  Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income.  People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent.  You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income.  You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.

With all the different companies racing to put their product into play, it comes down to whether you bet on the right horse or not.  While Avalon did beat BFL to market and the people betting on them won big, but only 1500 people maximum could take that bet... the others lost out.  In addition, the people who bought ASICMiner shares at .1 also made out like bandits with the share price dangling around 5BTC not long ago.  BUT, how many of those original shareholders still had shares when it hit that high?  I count myself lucky as I got into the ASMICMiners shares at 2.4 and sold a majority of them at 4.8 and then the remainder of them at 3.7.  With the price back at 2.4, I won, but whoever bought my shares didn't.

I've never spent a single BTC I've earned, I've invested some and won big, I've invested some and lost, in the long run I have well over 2x what I would have had I sat on everything I mined.  My profit though was someone else's loss.  There is no way to get around that.

[ordy]

Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income.  People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent.  You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income.  You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.

missed the nail on this one.  we are talking about hardware vendors here - not the 'industry' as a whole. we are not investors in any BTC hardware company when we order hardware.  if we were we would have equity stakes and privileges associated with that.  in this context the only thing that should be guaranteed (by laws and regs) is that a hardware product purchased by a customer is delivered as advertised (including the time frame).  if customers are not receiving the products they should be in, the time that they should, then these forums are one of several means of recourse for customers to use against fraudulent, incompetent, or otherwise non-performing hardware vendors.

[bronan]

The issue is that many vendors copied the BFL way, to get money for their startup as a hardware "company" who all take money before they actually deliver.

Now this all would be acceptable if the ones buying the hardware would get some benefit from being the first ones who ordered

Since they actually played the loaning bank for them, but instead of being rewarded we are being called silly idiots who only cry "see the many reactions in many threads about different hardware".

So for me its hard to keep my head cool since i am one of those who got a jalapeno while i paid for a SC single ( which has changed a couple of times in hashpower during the time they was not delivered and even i forgot what was written when i bought it.

So yes i want satisfaction but since bfl does not deliver the item i bought ,nor answer my emails regarding this issue i feel betrayed and scammed
I do not want to see posts by people who think they are god and that they are allways right.
 
The most annoying is to see that other people actually get what they ordered no matter the date.

Yes its insane that we had to wait more then a year to see actual hardware appear but if it was the right hardware i would never been so pissed.
Or if they would anwer me in a proper way and give me a satisfactory solution for the time and anger they caused, and last but not least some formal answer with a nice sorry sir ... blah blah blah

So i think any pre-order business should be moved towards a a sub forums where is written that doing this is pretty risky for the one doing this pre-order, in fact it should actually be under gamble with your btc. since we now learned the early adopters of this hardware are actually all loosing money. Besides those lucky few who got those big rigs early on. If they do make ROI i don't know but they might get lucky if that device can be kept mining on cheap electra.

The fact that many people here jump in to the discussions and start defending for instance bfl, even when they have preorders themselfs just means in my view that they hope by doing this they might get a better change their order comes in well.

Some of them are on my ignore and i really would have an option where i can completely make those persons invisble completely.
I really no longer want to see these persons names/posts at all anymore, even if they actually got screwed i would not care one cent about them. 

We all know if something is valuable the world is full with thieves, hackers, scammers and liars.
So its hard to see who are the good guys and who are the bad ones, we assume if one has a nice site and looks promising and offer us a good looking deal we want to try it
However how do we protect ourselfs against fraudulent companies ... indeed we post it on forums like here and try to prevent others to fall in the same pit you fell into.
But then all of a sudden people start making you the liar, fool, moron, thief and the idiot on this forum.... should we just shut up and go on with our lifes like nothing happened.
Is that what bitcoin will be, the ultimate untrustworthy coin. The one and only currency where people should stay far away from.

Then by all means stop all who want to go for justice, because everytime one report his findings or concerns they get flamed by the wonderboys who know all and believe what they think is the truth.
See the problem with bitcoin is that indeed it is hard to trace and by that it opens up a wealth of ways to steal those coins, yes money is also not totally safe but it can be traced by the serial numbers till it leaves the cash machines. Which most people not even know they are being filmed the moment they cash it out.
 

[mtminer]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

More active moderation, keep people from posting the same thing 10 times in 5 different threads. Once the abusers quit getting attention they will get bored and move on. As it stands today I would rather see the custom hardware forum go away then to continue in this same direction.

[bcp19]

Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income.  People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent.  You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income.  You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.

missed the nail on this one.  we are talking about hardware vendors here - not the 'industry' as a whole. we are not investors in any BTC hardware company when we order hardware.  if we were we would have equity stakes and privileges associated with that.  in this context the only thing that should be guaranteed (by laws and regs) is that a hardware product purchased by a customer is delivered as advertised (including the time frame).  if customers are not receiving the products they should be in, the time that they should, then these forums are one of several means of recourse for customers to use against fraudulent, incompetent, or otherwise non-performing hardware vendors.

No, I actually didn't.  I'm talking about the equipment investment and whichever company you buy from doesn't matter.  Maybe comparing the purchase of equipment to stock in a company was wrong, yet the premise remains solid.  You are speculating that the equipment you are purchasing will make you more money than you spent.

Now, if you want to compare companies, then you have to liken it to horse racing.  You're betting your horse will come in first, and if it doesn't you lose.  From your statement, you are obviously referring to BFL.  Considering their track record with the FPGA, anyone who took the time to read up on them would realize this horse is a long shot.  Betting on the long shot can win big, but more often than not, you lose.  

In my case, I already knew the horse had lost, so my bet was that they would still finish the race.  At the time I made my purchase I had 2 choices... $250 per .333MH or $274 for 5GH.  I already had several GPUs running, so I felt the $274 was a better investment even though I figured I would not see it for a long time.  I compared 13M difficulty, 28% growth (which the network was at the time) and 5GH.  Going with the USB, this would cost me $3,750 for 5GH and after one year I would be at a loss of $613.  That sold me... it was better to possibly lose $274 than it was to definitely lose $613.

[ordy]

Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income.  People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent.  You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income.  You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.

missed the nail on this one.  we are talking about hardware vendors here - not the 'industry' as a whole. we are not investors in any BTC hardware company when we order hardware.  if we were we would have equity stakes and privileges associated with that.  in this context the only thing that should be guaranteed (by laws and regs) is that a hardware product purchased by a customer is delivered as advertised (including the time frame).  if customers are not receiving the products they should be in, the time that they should, then these forums are one of several means of recourse for customers to use against fraudulent, incompetent, or otherwise non-performing hardware vendors.

No, I actually didn't.  I'm talking about the equipment investment and whichever company you buy from doesn't matter.  Maybe comparing the purchase of equipment to stock in a company was wrong, yet the premise remains solid.  You are speculating that the equipment you are purchasing will make you more money than you spent.

Now, if you want to compare companies, then you have to liken it to horse racing.  You're betting your horse will come in first, and if it doesn't you lose.  From your statement, you are obviously referring to BFL.  Considering their track record with the FPGA, anyone who took the time to read up on them would realize this horse is a long shot.  Betting on the long shot can win big, but more often than not, you lose.  

In my case, I already knew the horse had lost, so my bet was that they would still finish the race.  At the time I made my purchase I had 2 choices... $250 per .333MH or $274 for 5GH.  I already had several GPUs running, so I felt the $274 was a better investment even though I figured I would not see it for a long time.  I compared 13M difficulty, 28% growth (which the network was at the time) and 5GH.  Going with the USB, this would cost me $3,750 for 5GH and after one year I would be at a loss of $613.  That sold me... it was better to possibly lose $274 than it was to definitely lose $613.

umm, ya, and missed again.  i'm not sure what the purpose is for all of your attempted analogies and metaphors but they are not relevant.  the personal stories are cute, but again irrelevant.  nobody is saying that the BTC world is not risky, and of course one has to make an educated guess as to where best to put his/her money - which sometimes works out well and sometimes not.

what is the core of the thread and quoted OP is if this sub-forum is a acceptable location for customers of poor/non performing hardware vendors to share experiences, ask pointed questions, and sometimes just vent.  then to try to come up with method(s) to minimize the impact of that to other vendors who are performing well or have not yet missed a mark.

so please comment directly - do you think that customers of poorly performing vendors should have 'free speech' in this sub-forum (excluding threats of personal or property harm and such of course)?

[bcp19]

Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income.  People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent.  You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income.  You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.

missed the nail on this one.  we are talking about hardware vendors here - not the 'industry' as a whole. we are not investors in any BTC hardware company when we order hardware.  if we were we would have equity stakes and privileges associated with that.  in this context the only thing that should be guaranteed (by laws and regs) is that a hardware product purchased by a customer is delivered as advertised (including the time frame).  if customers are not receiving the products they should be in, the time that they should, then these forums are one of several means of recourse for customers to use against fraudulent, incompetent, or otherwise non-performing hardware vendors.

No, I actually didn't.  I'm talking about the equipment investment and whichever company you buy from doesn't matter.  Maybe comparing the purchase of equipment to stock in a company was wrong, yet the premise remains solid.  You are speculating that the equipment you are purchasing will make you more money than you spent.

Now, if you want to compare companies, then you have to liken it to horse racing.  You're betting your horse will come in first, and if it doesn't you lose.  From your statement, you are obviously referring to BFL.  Considering their track record with the FPGA, anyone who took the time to read up on them would realize this horse is a long shot.  Betting on the long shot can win big, but more often than not, you lose.  

In my case, I already knew the horse had lost, so my bet was that they would still finish the race.  At the time I made my purchase I had 2 choices... $250 per .333MH or $274 for 5GH.  I already had several GPUs running, so I felt the $274 was a better investment even though I figured I would not see it for a long time.  I compared 13M difficulty, 28% growth (which the network was at the time) and 5GH.  Going with the USB, this would cost me $3,750 for 5GH and after one year I would be at a loss of $613.  That sold me... it was better to possibly lose $274 than it was to definitely lose $613.

umm, ya, and missed again.  i'm not sure what the purpose is for all of your attempted analogies and metaphors but they are not relevant.  the personal stories are cute, but again irrelevant.  nobody is saying that the BTC world is not risky, and of course one has to make an educated guess as to where best to put his/her money - which sometimes works out well and sometimes not.

what is the core of the thread and quoted OP is if this sub-forum is a acceptable location for customers of poor/non performing hardware vendors to share experiences, ask pointed questions, and sometimes just vent.  then to try to come up with method(s) to minimize the impact of that to other vendors who are performing well or have not yet missed a mark.

so please comment directly - do you think that customers of poorly performing vendors should have 'free speech' in this sub-forum (excluding threats of personal or property harm and such of course)?

In reality you are comparing apples to oranges, yet I will answer you in full.

Whether you are a customer of a company that is performing well or poorly, you should be allowed to post your experiences and within reason your thoughts.  I posted my thoughts above because THAT is how I made my decision for the purchase I made after having done a lot of research through the older posts on this very forum.  The people who feel they must then call me names and deride me for my decision are producing nothing more than a dark atmosphere that will prevent future posters from speaking their minds in fear of getting the same treatment.  That type of 'free speech' should be curtailed as it produces nothing.  If someone were to offer a well reasoned argument and detail why they felt my decision was wrong, I would look at their comments and research them and come to a new conclusion based on that and let them know why I either agreed or disagreed with them and list the points.

If you took the time to read though the majority of my postings, you'd notice that, as my signature states, the worse you treat me, the worse I respond.  I have earned the emnity of many and the respect of few, but their opinion of me matters not to me, as I am secure in who I am.  I personally love an intelligent debate, and this sub-forum would be a wondrus place if that was what we conducted here.  Sadly, with the anonymity the internet provides, you have people lashing out like they never would in a face to face meeting.

The problem then becomes where to draw the line.  Unless everyone agrees, it will just fuel the fire.

[ordy]

In reality you are comparing apples to oranges, yet I will answer you in full.

Whether you are a customer of a company that is performing well or poorly, you should be allowed to post your experiences and within reason your thoughts.  I posted my thoughts above because THAT is how I made my decision for the purchase I made after having done a lot of research through the older posts on this very forum.  The people who feel they must then call me names and deride me for my decision are producing nothing more than a dark atmosphere that will prevent future posters from speaking their minds in fear of getting the same treatment.  That type of 'free speech' should be curtailed as it produces nothing.  If someone were to offer a well reasoned argument and detail why they felt my decision was wrong, I would look at their comments and research them and come to a new conclusion based on that and let them know why I either agreed or disagreed with them and list the points.

If you took the time to read though the majority of my postings, you'd notice that, as my signature states, the worse you treat me, the worse I respond.  I have earned the emnity of many and the respect of few, but their opinion of me matters not to me, as I am secure in who I am.  I personally love an intelligent debate, and this sub-forum would be a wondrus place if that was what we conducted here.  Sadly, with the anonymity the internet provides, you have people lashing out like they never would in a face to face meeting.

The problem then becomes where to draw the line.  Unless everyone agrees, it will just fuel the fire.

actually, i am not comparing anything to anything.   

[bcp19]

In reality you are comparing apples to oranges, yet I will answer you in full.

Whether you are a customer of a company that is performing well or poorly, you should be allowed to post your experiences and within reason your thoughts.  I posted my thoughts above because THAT is how I made my decision for the purchase I made after having done a lot of research through the older posts on this very forum.  The people who feel they must then call me names and deride me for my decision are producing nothing more than a dark atmosphere that will prevent future posters from speaking their minds in fear of getting the same treatment.  That type of 'free speech' should be curtailed as it produces nothing.  If someone were to offer a well reasoned argument and detail why they felt my decision was wrong, I would look at their comments and research them and come to a new conclusion based on that and let them know why I either agreed or disagreed with them and list the points.

If you took the time to read though the majority of my postings, you'd notice that, as my signature states, the worse you treat me, the worse I respond.  I have earned the emnity of many and the respect of few, but their opinion of me matters not to me, as I am secure in who I am.  I personally love an intelligent debate, and this sub-forum would be a wondrus place if that was what we conducted here.  Sadly, with the anonymity the internet provides, you have people lashing out like they never would in a face to face meeting.

The problem then becomes where to draw the line.  Unless everyone agrees, it will just fuel the fire.

actually, i am not comparing anything to anything.   

And this illustrates my point.  You asked a question and then completely ignored the answer to point out something irrelevant.

[Raoul Duke]

8 pages of replies here and only 2 people can go over to meta subforum and support this initiative?

Please, more people need to go support this if anything is to be done: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282006.0

Maybe that's because what you think is a problem is just 4 or 5 dudes with a big mouth, lots of time in their hands and a sense of entitlement like I haven't seen before.
Translation: nothing a few bans won't solve.
But that's just how I see it, and what the fuck do I know, right?

[01BTC10]

8 pages of replies here and only 2 people can go over to meta subforum and support this initiative?

Please, more people need to go support this if anything is to be done: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282006.0

Maybe that's because what you think is a problem is just 4 or 5 dudes with a big mouth, lots of time in their hands and a sense of entitlement like I haven't seen before.
Translation: nothing a few bans won't solve.
But that's just how I see it, and what the fuck do I know, right?

But the forum promote freedom of speech like with BFL ads so it can't ban users for posting their ideas. Meanwhile, they are clustering a technical part of the forum that don't give a *** about their flame wars. Give them a section to do so and everyone will be happy.

[bcp19]

8 pages of replies here and only 2 people can go over to meta subforum and support this initiative?

Please, more people need to go support this if anything is to be done: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282006.0

Maybe that's because what you think is a problem is just 4 or 5 dudes with a big mouth, lots of time in their hands and a sense of entitlement like I haven't seen before.
Translation: nothing a few bans won't solve.
But that's just how I see it, and what the fuck do I know, right?

But the forum promote freedom of speech like with BFL ads so it can't ban users for posting their ideas. Meanwhile, they are clustering a technical part of the forum that don't give a *** about their flame wars. Give them a section to do so and everyone will be happy.

That does raise an interesting idea... why not simply create a Vendor Hate sub-forum and move posts as needed?  If you shunt enough to the basement, it may eventually get forgotten.

[01BTC10]

I don't know bcp19 if you're answering to my post since you're on my ignore (and I won't even unignore you to read your answer) since a long time ago because you're one of the member clustering this forum.

[ordy]

In reality you are comparing apples to oranges, yet I will answer you in full.

Whether you are a customer of a company that is performing well or poorly, you should be allowed to post your experiences and within reason your thoughts.  I posted my thoughts above because THAT is how I made my decision for the purchase I made after having done a lot of research through the older posts on this very forum.  The people who feel they must then call me names and deride me for my decision are producing nothing more than a dark atmosphere that will prevent future posters from speaking their minds in fear of getting the same treatment.  That type of 'free speech' should be curtailed as it produces nothing.  If someone were to offer a well reasoned argument and detail why they felt my decision was wrong, I would look at their comments and research them and come to a new conclusion based on that and let them know why I either agreed or disagreed with them and list the points.

If you took the time to read though the majority of my postings, you'd notice that, as my signature states, the worse you treat me, the worse I respond.  I have earned the emnity of many and the respect of few, but their opinion of me matters not to me, as I am secure in who I am.  I personally love an intelligent debate, and this sub-forum would be a wondrus place if that was what we conducted here.  Sadly, with the anonymity the internet provides, you have people lashing out like they never would in a face to face meeting.

The problem then becomes where to draw the line.  Unless everyone agrees, it will just fuel the fire.

actually, i am not comparing anything to anything.   

And this illustrates my point.  You asked a question and then completely ignored the answer to point out something irrelevant.

no, i didn't ignore it.  i simply had no comment on it except that i was confused as to what two things i was suppose to have compared. and how does that illustrate any point?

but i will comment now though since you seem to want me to.  

i don't believe that the poster you quoted nor i called you any names nor derided you in this thread.  i would agree that attacking another individual for their hardware purchasing decisions would be out of place.  heck, i have put money into (undelivered) products of some of the worst performing companies currently out there so i wouldn't cast aspersions unto others in the same boat.

no, i have not searched your posting history so i have no clue what you have brought to the table previously.  if i 'took the time' to go thru every posters' history i would never get anything done so that is quite unrealistic to expect.

[Raoul Duke]

8 pages of replies here and only 2 people can go over to meta subforum and support this initiative?

Please, more people need to go support this if anything is to be done: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282006.0

Maybe that's because what you think is a problem is just 4 or 5 dudes with a big mouth, lots of time in their hands and a sense of entitlement like I haven't seen before.
Translation: nothing a few bans won't solve.
But that's just how I see it, and what the fuck do I know, right?

But the forum promote freedom of speech like with BFL ads so it can't ban users for posting their ideas. Meanwhile, they are clustering a technical part of the forum that don't give a *** about their flame wars. Give them a section to do so and everyone will be happy.

Not saying it will happen, because I really doubt it will come to that. Bitcoin is fueled by drama, after all. lol
It's just that the "complaints" get old, if you know what I mean. How many times do you need to say something to make it true? Oh, wait...

EDIT:
You described the problem oh so well, in that other thread.

...stupid sockpuppet war.

Bitcoin psyops at its best LMAO

[bcp19]

no, i didn't ignore it.  i simply had no comment on it except that i was confused as to what two things i was suppose to have compared. and how does that illustrate any point?

but i will comment now though since you seem to want me to.  

i don't believe that the poster you quoted nor i called you any names nor derided you in this thread.  i would agree that attacking another individual for their hardware purchasing decisions would be out of place.  heck, i have put money into (undelivered) products of some of the worst performing companies currently out there so i wouldn't cast aspersions unto others in the same boat.

no, i have not searched your posting history so i have no clue what you have brought to the table previously.  if i 'took the time' to go thru every posters' history i would never get anything done so that is quite unrealistic to expect.

It was in reference to my missing the nail a few posts back.  Your nail and mine were on different subjects, thus we were talking apples and oranges.  

Exactly, if we can communicate both successes and failures without embellishment, this sub-forum would help a lot of people.

[zedicus]

Hate is not a feeling that develops in a short time. Its not a dislike, or a preference or even an opinion. Its a force consumed by rage and in most cases the person feeling hateful has no other recourse.


If someone raped your sister... there is no there recourse .. you go straight to rage then to hate .. in most cases you do not collect 200, you go directly to hate!

If someone breaks in your home, puts a gun to the forehead of one of your loved ones.. there is no other road to take, ( Rage --->>> Hate! )


If someone robs you after you have just cashed your paycheck and you are left with nothing, cant feed your family, pay for a roof over your head..

You go directly to -------> YOU GUESSED IT RAGE/HATE!!



That said it looks like to me there are a lot of people/vendors who are using this forum to prey on people.

Thats said the very first order of things should be to make this forum neutral.

Currently the forum is advertizing ads for persons or vendors that have induced RAGE/HATE in most if not all their customers.

The customer or miners have no other recourse other than rage and hate!


Imagine if you went to the police station and found the guy that put a gun to one of your family members heads..

Imagine if you found him having drinks with the cops and laughing, and giving each other high fives!


Thats what it LOOKS LIKE when people see the ads here.

Hey that's the guy who robbed me and my family and you guys are giving him high fives and having drinks!!

Let me tell you.. that paints a portrait of this forum that's not exactly a Picasso! Considering its one of the largest places of discussion for bitcoin its not exactly doing wonders for the bitcoin community.

 
Sorry to be so critical. Its just the way i feel..   I think the openness of these forums is one of its greatest assets but at the same time i think there is somewhat of an underlying issue when it comes to integrity.

Besides taking a neutral roll,
 
I think a good start would be single threads for Asic vendors. Some of the vendors are starting a bunch of threads, maybe to deflect away some info being brought to light in one thread. Also a sub forum/thread for each vendor thread where people can talk about gripes, issues and what not so as to leave the main thread for development talk. The biggest thing would be to have a flagging system of sorts. We cant have vendors ignoring customers who have sent in thousands. Some people are putting up their tickets and order numbers and getting absolutely zero response from vendors. Legit or not this cant go on..


Now imagine sending in thousands if not tens of thousands and not getting a simple receipt or order confirmation and being ignored only to have these ads blasted in your face every other page by the very same vendors who have ripped you off! Its a direct spit to the face ..

Its a recipe for inducing rage/hate..



Im not sure my single vendor thread idea is worthwhile but what i am sure of is the neutrality of these here forums.

With all due respect!
Ya cant be part of the problem and be the solution at the same time!

 

[Bicknellski]

Solutions?

Any?

Conclusions?

Any?

No need to overanalyze the roots of the problem they are clear. Failure to meet promises from "custom hardware" fabricators. Can we focus on the solutions to the vitriol that is the result rather than debating the reasons it propagates?

[k9quaint]

8 pages of replies here and only 2 people can go over to meta subforum and support this initiative?

Please, more people need to go support this if anything is to be done: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282006.0

Maybe that's because what you think is a problem is just 4 or 5 dudes with a big mouth, lots of time in their hands and a sense of entitlement like I haven't seen before.
Translation: nothing a few bans won't solve.
But that's just how I see it, and what the fuck do I know, right?

But the forum promote freedom of speech like with BFL ads so it can't ban users for posting their ideas. Meanwhile, they are clustering a technical part of the forum that don't give a *** about their flame wars. Give them a section to do so and everyone will be happy.

Not saying it will happen, because I really doubt it will come to that. Bitcoin is fueled by drama, after all. lol
It's just that the "complaints" get old, if you know what I mean. How many times do you need to say something to make it true? Oh, wait...

EDIT:
You described the problem oh so well, in that other thread.

...stupid sockpuppet war.

Bitcoin psyops at its best LMAO

[POLL] Should Butterfly Labs (BFL) get a Scammer tag?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155730.0
796 people polled said yes. 225 said no.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269950.0
1800+ replies to Avalon's failure to deliver the chips in a timely fashion.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.0
7800+ replies to a newly announced start up that has not yet delivered a product.

Is it just 4 or 5 people?

BFL and Avalon are the model right now for Bitcoin hardware vendors. Lack of transparency. Lack of delivery. Lack of recourse.
Should we be worried because a few opaque ASIC vendors are the only source for the security of the blockchain?

[01BTC10]

I have no problem with flaming war but there should be a dedicated forum. Leave the technical hardware geek forum alone.  

[erschiessen]

You cant have your cake and eat it as well ....

Mods continually ignore the calls by the masses to give BFL & Assoc a Scammer tag or at least Untrustworthy

+1

I don't understand the OP.

Why is there not the a thread asking the reverse?

" Do we want to continue to allow various *customer* hate in here? "

" Do we want to continue to allow various *SCAMS* in here? "

[Syke]

Any "vendor hate" here is well deserved. bASIC fucked up. BFL fucked up. Avalon fucked up. Intentional or not, they fucked up big time. They deserve all the hate they're getting. You want to eliminate the hate? Eliminate the vendors that have fucked up. Give them 3 strikes if you feel generous. Miss 3 promises/dates/specs/etc. and you're banned from participating in this forum.

[Bicknellski]

Any "vendor hate" here is well deserved. bASIC fucked up. BFL fucked up. Avalon fucked up. Intentional or not, they fucked up big time. They deserve all the hate they're getting. You want to eliminate the hate? Eliminate the vendors that have fucked up. Give them 3 strikes if you feel generous. Miss 3 promises/dates/specs/etc. and you're banned from participating in this forum.

Ok we all get that...

What are the solutions?

[mufa23]

Any "vendor hate" here is well deserved. bASIC fucked up. BFL fucked up. Avalon fucked up. Intentional or not, they fucked up big time. They deserve all the hate they're getting. You want to eliminate the hate? Eliminate the vendors that have fucked up. Give them 3 strikes if you feel generous. Miss 3 promises/dates/specs/etc. and you're banned from participating in this forum.

That's actually not a bad idea...

We really should be getting rid of those that constantly argue/troll/complain about it. But there is way too many now. There is, however, a small handful of users on this forum that work for the said companies. If they were banned, this would prevent them from fighting with the disgruntled. Eventually, it would go something like this:

Disgruntled User #1: "I haven't gotten my order yet / I want a refund / This company is scamming / etc..."
*no employees to argue*
Disgruntled User #2: "Yeah, we know. Welcome to the club. Now tell us something we haven't already heard."
*end of thread*

With the users working for the company still around, it goes a little something like this:
Disgruntled User #1: "I haven't gotten my order yet / I want a refund / This company is scamming / etc..."
ASIC Company Employee #1: "You have to wait a little longer, we are having issues / Please email company with your refund request / No, we aren't scamming. We have proof! / etc..."
Disgruntled User #1: "I think you are lying"
Disgruntled User #2: "You're a dick"
Disgruntled User #3: "F**k this! Blah blah company is better"
ASIC Company Employee #1: "No it's not! We are the better company!"
*inevitable shit posting for 99+ pages*
*new threads about same subject are made*
Disgruntled User #2: "OMG! Did you hear what ASIC Company Employee said over at blank thread? Well I thought I'd start this thread so we can bitch about it even moar!"


This is just an idea. I personally don't like it. But the trolling/aruging won't stop until these ASIC employees stop throwing fuel on the flame. Maybe this, combined with warning and temp banning those that don't contribute would work. Delete their post and warn them a few times. Then ban them for a week or so. If they come back and do the same thing, ban them for a month, three months, etc. Would require a lot of moderating though.

[2112]

Ok we all get that...

What are the solutions?

Learn the basics of finance and the import/export business, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_credit

The above personally pertains to people like you, zefir and the other "group buy leaders". It was your (plural your) ineptnes that practically created this problem.

[Bicknellski]

Ok we all get that...

What are the solutions?

Learn the basics of finance and the import/export business, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_credit

The above personally pertains to people like you, zefir and the other "group buy leaders". It was your (plural your) ineptnes that practically created this problem.

Correct.

And I clearly COMMUNICATED with my customers when we shut things down and gave refunds and acted in a professional manner that it was OUR fault not Avalons. People appreciated the way we handled our refunds and there was not nearly the same level of problems that is the focus of BFL and Avalon right now. So not sure where I fit on your scale of this problem but people were disappointed with us but not angry and shouting at us in the forums. Which is the problem we are trying solve. Also to our credit we held the BTC in cold storage and didn't use any of it for production so that refunds were always possible given ANY failures.

This issue is the VITRIOL not the errors and lack of education correct? So you are not really helping solve the problem pointing out we lack the business acumen required.  There has to be consequences for those overtly being deceptive that to me is an issue more than the my personal stupidity or that of the other DIYers out there but as I said "I agree with you we are part of the problem", however, no where near the root cause of it.

I would also note that Zefir has handled his issues with Avalon very professionally which should be the model we need moving forward too bad that two companies Bitsyncom (Avalon) and BFL can't do the same and I think that is primarily WHY we have problems but what are the solutions? So even though we may have caused issues the results have been minimal. Where things get out of hand are BFL, AVALON attempting to lay blame on the community for their calls for answers. The majority of these blowouts are caused primarily with the lack of ethical behavior or ethical business standards of a very few people and companies. I have called for a subforum that is based on standards not on false pretense and vaporware or on broken promises.

So given that education alone is not going to solve this we need alternatives so what is your suggestion? Pointing a finger at the buyers and shouting caveat emptor is a cop out if you ask me given the lack of any standards for posting these forums in terms of product claims and there has been some clear FRAUD by individuals. More has to be done.

[Askit2]

I know this would help in the long run. The problem is 90% preorder related and maybe 10% actual issues. Most people where mad before anything untoward happened. Well that isn't entirely true but.

It's about the cash. If people would stop paying in full for preorders the issues would stop or at least drop to a trickle. I get the idea be first in line and make a (metaphorical) killing. The down side is that the companies making hardware will not likely create anything without enough interest. They view interest as people paying upfront.

Lets say bitcoin took a lesson from any other preorder. I want to buy a new super mining unit. The company I "Preorder" from needs something realistically to hold my spot in line. When preordering you would put up a deposit.  Next lets say the amount of the deposit is 5% (easy to figure in your head). So I want to order the new monarch 4K I would need a 200$ deposit. That holds my spot in line. Now when the unit is done I would owe the balance or 3800$. Would I have 3800$ in 3, 6, 9 or 12 months yes.

The manufacturers have said they need fully paid units to be able to ship as soon as the units are produced. This has not seemed to have been an issue. Right now there are lines for current production units. If an earlier order was short would the manufacturers be out money in a meaningful way? I really don't think so. They would ship to the next paid in full order. This would create a modicum of additional paperwork for the manufacturer but likely would limit their backlash when something goes wrong.

The issue isn't that the problem itself couldn't be fixed or greatly reduced. The issue is that people don't like feeling cheated, lied to or just taken for a ride. Full payment preorders are only in the manufacturers interest. Very little of it would ever be in the buyers interest.

I agree (by default since this system will likely never be used in bitcoin) that the multiple custom hardware child boards is better then the current single board where everything gets lost in the fallout from current business practices and people posting the same issues frequently.

EDIT: I am not saying that people wouldn't get cheated ever using this system. I am saying that it leaves both parties with skin in the game. A failure would still cost the purchaser money. I just doubt that people would whine so much if their 1200$ upgrade (so paying half cash) had a hold of 30$ on it for a year. Wow now that you are close to shipping my order I pay the 570$ remainder. Of course a scam could just make their cost higher making the deposit larger monetarily.

EDIT 2: Whine might be a little harsh. People are out real money. Still there has been hate since the first full price preorder. It will continue until the deadline is actually met or people stop paying 100% upfront.  Vote with your wallets people.

[jhansen858]

Maybe in the custom hardware section the vendor should be required to demonstrate that they have registered their products with the FCC.  That would keep all of them off the boards.  I think that would leave us with, what, zero legitimate vendors?

I did an in depth analysis of this.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=254750.0

my analysis determined that this is not as clear cut as what you are claiming here.

[bcp19]

Any "vendor hate" here is well deserved. bASIC fucked up. BFL fucked up. Avalon fucked up. Intentional or not, they fucked up big time. They deserve all the hate they're getting. You want to eliminate the hate? Eliminate the vendors that have fucked up. Give them 3 strikes if you feel generous. Miss 3 promises/dates/specs/etc. and you're banned from participating in this forum.

That's actually not a bad idea...

We really should be getting rid of those that constantly argue/troll/complain about it. But there is way too many now. There is, however, a small handful of users on this forum that work for the said companies. If they were banned, this would prevent them from fighting with the disgruntled. Eventually, it would go something like this:


This is just an idea. I personally don't like it. But the trolling/aruging won't stop until these ASIC employees stop throwing fuel on the flame. Maybe this, combined with warning and temp banning those that don't contribute would work. Delete their post and warn them a few times. Then ban them for a week or so. If they come back and do the same thing, ban them for a month, three months, etc. Would require a lot of moderating though.

While you do have users that are known to be associated with the companies, you also have the ones that are told "you MUST be working for them because you don't hate them".  In the OP, it is clear that the moderator is not concerned with JUST the asic company reps that get out of hand, but the people who make thread after thread just to spew hate as well as jump into any related thread to do the same.  Maybe the topic title needs rewriting, but it is clear that trolling is the problem.

The best way to look at this is to look at how trolling works.  In order for the troll personality to be successful, they need an audience.  The solution then is a simple one, remove them from their audience.  I mentioned before that a sub forum titled "Vendor Hate" or "Complaints" or something similar should be created and all threads of this type be shunted there.  Since the trolls would only have themselves as their audience for the most part, the threads would likely die from a lack of participation.  Hate posts in existing threads could be either deleted as being inappropraite ot shunted to a catch-all thread in the new sub-forum.  Since posts are merely moved and not deleted, those interested in reading them can go there and the main forum remains clutter-free.

To complete the concerns listed in the OP, 2 new sub-forums should also be created titled something like "New Ventures" and "Resolved issues".  The former would be for use by anyone with a new group buy or a new startup, etc.  The latter could be used for companies that have taken themselves out of the game.  We don't need to see 50 threads about the same people demanding refunds of the same companies, either 1 thread should be enough or they should have their own place to reside, though this could be solved by simply locking threads with a link to the appropriate thread.

[m3sSh3aD]

I think you should move this section to bitcoin/mining because its massively popular now. Thats a start

Then just create a VENDOR BASHING section lol

Done

[Micon]

My 2x Satoshi's

1)  Lets not beat around the bush, the OP is basically stating "there are endless BFL-bashing threads and we can't legit talk hardware"  [agreed]
2)  IMO this is a symptom of allowing BFL to continue to advertise when much of the community has been swindled by them.  Having Josh Zerlan hurling insults towards victims in one thread then buying advertising to dupe unstudied users in another is causing widely distributed rage.

[ordy]

no, i didn't ignore it.  i simply had no comment on it except that i was confused as to what two things i was suppose to have compared. and how does that illustrate any point?

but i will comment now though since you seem to want me to.  

i don't believe that the poster you quoted nor i called you any names nor derided you in this thread.  i would agree that attacking another individual for their hardware purchasing decisions would be out of place.  heck, i have put money into (undelivered) products of some of the worst performing companies currently out there so i wouldn't cast aspersions unto others in the same boat.

no, i have not searched your posting history so i have no clue what you have brought to the table previously.  if i 'took the time' to go thru every posters' history i would never get anything done so that is quite unrealistic to expect.

It was in reference to my missing the nail a few posts back.  Your nail and mine were on different subjects, thus we were talking apples and oranges.  

Exactly, if we can communicate both successes and failures without embellishment, this sub-forum would help a lot of people.

well yes, hence the reason i made reference to you saying the quoted poster was 'missing the nail', then stated that it is you who is.  but that still is not comparing anything.

the performance of few of the vendors are responsible for the genesis and their subsequent input (or lack thereof) is a large part of continued fanning of the flames of the current level of "hate" in this sub-forum.  the rest, like 'hater' vs 'fanboy' stuff, is universal to virtually all online forums where there are both strong opinions and people's money at stake.  realistically there is nothing moderators can do to eliminate that until it crosses into actual threats.  

if one can't take salty language, sarcasm, their views challenged, and even insults from time to time then most online forums are not for them - this one included.

[Rival]

One sad component of haters and baiters is the self-righteousness. They see themselves as some sort of holy warriors protecting the great unwashed from evil-doers. As if they are doing any service for anyone but themselves. The real joke is that filling page after page and thread after thread with regurgitated, gibbering bile makes them look like raving lunatics. They are not saving anyone. They are not helping anyone. The only opinion anyone has about their posts is that it is useless, innane clutter and that these forums would be better without it. The imagined power that comes with claiming that "90% of people agree with what I am posting" must surely be intoxicating, but in reality, no one cares. It isn't real.

There is no one who needs their brand of "saving", there are no crusades to win other than imagined ones, and their hate makes them a loser by default.

There are certainly plenty of issues with both asics related to manufacturing and delivery. But nothing they say or do is going to affect it one way or the other, nor will it likely affect anyone else's choices. They are powerless, and at some level they know this, and that only fuels their hate. Being irrelevant really pisses some people off, and makes them even louder.

I wish I could reach out to each and every one of them and cure them. Unfortunately, I think only the passage of time can do that. Eventually every vendor will either deliver or go belly up. Then what will they have left?

[k9quaint]

One sad component of haters and baiters is the self-righteousness. They see themselves as some sort of holy warriors protecting the great unwashed from evil-doers. As if they are doing any service for anyone but themselves. The real joke is that filling page after page and thread after thread with regurgitated, gibbering bile makes them look like raving lunatics. They are not saving anyone. They are not helping anyone. The only opinion anyone has about their posts is that it is useless, innane clutter and that these forums would be better without it. The imagined power that comes with claiming that "90% of people agree with what I am posting" must surely be intoxicating, but in reality, no one cares. It isn't real.

There is no one who needs their brand of "saving", there are no crusades to win other than imagined ones, and their hate makes them a loser by default.

There are certainly plenty of issues with both asics related to manufacturing and delivery. But nothing they say or do is going to affect it one way or the other, nor will it likely affect anyone else's choices. They are powerless, and at some level they know this, and that only fuels their hate. Being irrelevant really pisses some people off, and makes them even louder.

I wish I could reach out to each and every one of them and cure them. Unfortunately, I think only the passage of time can do that. Eventually every vendor will either deliver or go belly up. Then what will they have left?

The obvious counter-example to your claims is the PSA:

If you have ordered from ButterFly Labs and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask ButterFly Labs for a refund, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. Multiple customers have already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC at  http://www.ftc.gov/complaint and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises.
You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms

There are also several threads on how to get a refund from ButterFly Labs, here are two:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272585.0

This message has grown over time and helped a few people get refunds from BFL (who at first refused to provide them). Customers are entitled to a refund until they are shipped a product (thus creating a 'sale'), many were unaware of this. This is real.

Maybe you were not around earlier (it would explain a lot) but the "vendor haters" were in the minority before April. There was a lot of euphoria going around and back then "the 90%" had a different take on things.

There is irony here as well. It is your post that is actually an example of the bad behavior. It contains only disdain and insults for those that disagree with you. Other people can speculate as to why you are so bitter in other threads.

[Rival]

One sad component of haters and baiters is the self-righteousness. They see themselves as some sort of holy warriors protecting the great unwashed from evil-doers. As if they are doing any service for anyone but themselves. The real joke is that filling page after page and thread after thread with regurgitated, gibbering bile makes them look like raving lunatics. They are not saving anyone. They are not helping anyone. The only opinion anyone has about their posts is that it is useless, innane clutter and that these forums would be better without it. The imagined power that comes with claiming that "90% of people agree with what I am posting" must surely be intoxicating, but in reality, no one cares. It isn't real.

There is no one who needs their brand of "saving", there are no crusades to win other than imagined ones, and their hate makes them a loser by default.

There are certainly plenty of issues with both asics related to manufacturing and delivery. But nothing they say or do is going to affect it one way or the other, nor will it likely affect anyone else's choices. They are powerless, and at some level they know this, and that only fuels their hate. Being irrelevant really pisses some people off, and makes them even louder.

I wish I could reach out to each and every one of them and cure them. Unfortunately, I think only the passage of time can do that. Eventually every vendor will either deliver or go belly up. Then what will they have left?

The obvious counter-example to your claims is the PSA:

If you have ordered from ButterFly Labs and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask ButterFly Labs for a refund, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. Multiple customers have already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC at  http://www.ftc.gov/complaint and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises.
You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms

There are also several threads on how to get a refund from ButterFly Labs, here are two:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272585.0

This message has grown over time and helped a few people get refunds from BFL (who at first refused to provide them). Customers are entitled to a refund until they are shipped a product (thus creating a 'sale'), many were unaware of this. This is real.

Maybe you were not around earlier (it would explain a lot) but the "vendor haters" were in the minority before April. There was a lot of euphoria going around and back then "the 90%" had a different take on things.

There is irony here as well. It is your post that is actually an example of the bad behavior. It contains only disdain and insults for those that disagree with you. Other people can speculate as to why you are so bitter in other threads.

I fail to see hate or baiting in the message you quoted. That message certainly is a good contribution and is mostly just neutral in tone. I do not feel disdain for the haters, just pity. Their opinions are not the issue. Their actions are.
 

[Threader]

I support Bitcointalk.org upholding first amendment right to free speech but also respectfully following  Bitcointalk.org's posting guidelines.

With that said, if you find the thread of interest but dislike a posters posts feel free to ignore poster(s).

If the thread is not of interest move on through the forum and find a thread that is of interest to you.

Don't tread on me!

[tempestb]

Do what most other forums do.  Contain it to one thread.  When a poster makes post after post that follow closely the same line of conversation of another thread.  Close it and have the last response point to the other thread that is already covering that topic.

Moderators need to use their opinion as to whether the subject deserves a new topic or not.  But in this way, you are not removing what anyone is saying, you are simply consolidating where the conversation is happening into the proper thread. 

[Ytterbium]

As long as the 'ignore' button works I don't see what the problem is.

[Ytterbium]

Do what most other forums do.  Contain it to one thread.  When a poster makes post after post that follow closely the same line of conversation of another thread.  Close it and have the last response point to the other thread that is already covering that topic.

Moderators need to use their opinion as to whether the subject deserves a new topic or not.  But in this way, you are not removing what anyone is saying, you are simply consolidating where the conversation is happening into the proper thread. 

I agree, we don't need frothing BFL hate in a KnC thread, for example.

[ProfMac]

As long as the 'ignore' button works I don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that I can't present bitcoin to my friends or students as something sane people would have anything to do with while there is this level of incivility in the forums.
On the whole, these postings make us all look like kooks & hotheads.  If we manage to make bitcoin lose it's value by acting stupid, any damage we may think that a vendor has done simply does not matter.

[Ytterbium]

As long as the 'ignore' button works I don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that I can't present bitcoin to my friends or students as something sane people would have anything to do with while there is this level of incivility in the forums.

Your friends and students shouldn't be buying ASIC mining hardware, if they don't have a deep understanding of how everything works in order to evaluate their prospects. They should be scared of buying hardware.

[kano]

As long as the 'ignore' button works I don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that I can't present bitcoin to my friends or students as something sane people would have anything to do with while there is this level of incivility in the forums.
On the whole, these postings make us all look like kooks & hotheads.  If we manage to make bitcoin lose it's value by acting stupid, any damage we may think that a vendor has done simply does not matter.

Don't forget the fact that silk road is the big starting point for Bitcoin popularity and a big reason why Bitcoin has succeeded.

You'll certainly not want them to know that either ... keep them away from Bitcoin

[Carlton Banks]

Face facts: this is a modern day gold rush, and this sub-forum especially must reflect exactly the state of the fever until that's over. The supreme irony is that this thread has brought out the full cast of goblins and sky-spirits, if anything only to somehow help prove that they're genuine. It's a lesson in life, make of the circus what you will, but it cannot be controlled, tamed, reasoned with or made sensible. It is not possible.

Sad, but we are animals, the best we can do is a sincere attempt to be rational. And attempted exploitation of animal instincts will continue while we are all still biological.

And so the only genuine solution is trans-humanism   Who's first on the operating slab?  

[2112]

The problem is that I can't present bitcoin to my friends or students as something sane people would have anything to do with while there is this level of incivility in the forums.
On the whole, these postings make us all look like kooks & hotheads.  If we manage to make bitcoin lose it's value by acting stupid, any damage we may think that a vendor has done simply does not matter.

Why only "look like kooks & hotheads"? We are kooks & hotheads, this is what makes the Bitcoin millieu such an interesting subject for psychology, sociology, antropology and other humanities.

Who gave you a certificate that you are neither a kook nor a hothead? What was the testing protocol?

[ProfMac]

The problem is that I can't present bitcoin to my friends or students as something sane people would have anything to do with while there is this level of incivility in the forums.
On the whole, these postings make us all look like kooks & hotheads.  If we manage to make bitcoin lose it's value by acting stupid, any damage we may think that a vendor has done simply does not matter.

Why only "look like kooks & hotheads"? We are kooks & hotheads, this is what makes the Bitcoin millieu such an interesting subject for psychology, sociology, antropology and other humanities.

Who gave you a certificate that you are neither a kook nor a hothead? What was the testing protocol?

Anyway, who said I passed?

[2112]

Anyway, who said I passed?

Finally I see some a hint of some real introspection from you. Maybe this picture will help you to reflect some more.


Unlike the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilkoot_Pass mining of Bitcoin isn't going to actually kill anyone. The effect on their personal finances will be similar, but they are very likely to survive the adventure and maybe even get motivated to learn & understand the things like "international trade finance" and "P&L analysis".

[m3sSh3aD]

Anyway, who said I passed?

Finally I see some a hint of some real introspection from you. Maybe this picture will help you to reflect some more.


Unlike the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilkoot_Pass mining of Bitcoin isn't going to actually kill anyone. The effect on their personal finances will be similar, but they are very likely to survive the adventure and maybe even get motivated to learn & understand the things like "international trade finance" and "P&L analysis".

Bit coin mining AS killed people. One that springs to mind is the dude that was sleeping in his mining room and died through heat exhaustion. So I'm sorry to say your wrong. Bit coin mining AS killed! :-)

[Biomech]

Face facts: this is a modern day gold rush, and this sub-forum especially must reflect exactly the state of the fever until that's over. The supreme irony is that this thread has brought out the full cast of goblins and sky-spirits, if anything only to somehow help prove that they're genuine. It's a lesson in life, make of the circus what you will, but it cannot be controlled, tamed, reasoned with or made sensible. It is not possible.

Sad, but we are animals, the best we can do is a sincere attempt to be rational. And attempted exploitation of animal instincts will continue while we are all still biological.

And so the only genuine solution is trans-humanism   Who's first on the operating slab?  

Not me, but I'm certainly down with the finished product!

[m3sSh3aD]

Face facts: this is a modern day gold rush, and this sub-forum especially must reflect exactly the state of the fever until that's over. The supreme irony is that this thread has brought out the full cast of goblins and sky-spirits, if anything only to somehow help prove that they're genuine. It's a lesson in life, make of the circus what you will, but it cannot be controlled, tamed, reasoned with or made sensible. It is not possible.

Sad, but we are animals, the best we can do is a sincere attempt to be rational. And attempted exploitation of animal instincts will continue while we are all still biological.

And so the only genuine solution is trans-humanism   Who's first on the operating slab?  

Seriously dude! Stop supporting the elite and realise the truth! WE'RE ALL BEEN LIED TO ABOUT EVERYTHING!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zc0ICPoqlM

[Ytterbium]

Bit coin mining AS killed people. One that springs to mind is the dude that was sleeping in his mining room and died through heat exhaustion. So I'm sorry to say your wrong. Bit coin mining AS killed! :-)

Impressive that he was able to post on a forum after he died.

[m3sSh3aD]

Bit coin mining AS killed people. One that springs to mind is the dude that was sleeping in his mining room and died through heat exhaustion. So I'm sorry to say your wrong. Bit coin mining AS killed! :-)

Impressive that he was able to post on a forum after he died.

I've looked for the article but Google is so fixed that it just wants to show bitcoin is dieing! No surprises there! Of cause he didnt report his own death though, How does your brain work to even suggest such a thing!!!

[k9quaint]

[ANN] Tin foil group buy!

0.2 BTC per roll.

[Ytterbium]

Bit coin mining AS killed people. One that springs to mind is the dude that was sleeping in his mining room and died through heat exhaustion. So I'm sorry to say your wrong. Bit coin mining AS killed! :-)

Impressive that he was able to post on a forum after he died.

I've looked for the article but Google is so fixed that it just wants to show bitcoin is dieing! No surprises there! Of cause he didnt report his own death though, How does your brain work to even suggest such a thing!!!

He didn't die, he just posted on a forum claiming he suffered from heatstroke while he slept.

[stormlighter]

So are staff getting anywhere with this thread or did it die in offtopic?

[m3sSh3aD]

Bit coin mining AS killed people. One that springs to mind is the dude that was sleeping in his mining room and died through heat exhaustion. So I'm sorry to say your wrong. Bit coin mining AS killed! :-)

Impressive that he was able to post on a forum after he died.

I've looked for the article but Google is so fixed that it just wants to show bitcoin is dieing! No surprises there! Of cause he didnt report his own death though, How does your brain work to even suggest such a thing!!!

He didn't die, he just posted on a forum claiming he suffered from heatstroke while he slept.

Well your not obviously on about who i am! Jesus! Give me strength!

[Carlton Banks]

Face facts: this is a modern day gold rush, and this sub-forum especially must reflect exactly the state of the fever until that's over. The supreme irony is that this thread has brought out the full cast of goblins and sky-spirits, if anything only to somehow help prove that they're genuine. It's a lesson in life, make of the circus what you will, but it cannot be controlled, tamed, reasoned with or made sensible. It is not possible.

Sad, but we are animals, the best we can do is a sincere attempt to be rational. And attempted exploitation of animal instincts will continue while we are all still biological.

And so the only genuine solution is trans-humanism   Who's first on the operating slab?  

Seriously dude! Stop supporting the elite and realise the truth! WE'RE ALL BEEN LIED TO ABOUT EVERYTHING!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zc0ICPoqlM

HErpa-aderP-dErp?

[Ytterbium]

Bit coin mining AS killed people. One that springs to mind is the dude that was sleeping in his mining room and died through heat exhaustion. So I'm sorry to say your wrong. Bit coin mining AS killed! :-)

Impressive that he was able to post on a forum after he died.

I've looked for the article but Google is so fixed that it just wants to show bitcoin is dieing! No surprises there! Of cause he didnt report his own death though, How does your brain work to even suggest such a thing!!!

He didn't die, he just posted on a forum claiming he suffered from heatstroke while he slept.

Well your not obviously on about who i am! Jesus! Give me strength!

No, you're just remembering it wrong.

[bcp19]

Bit coin mining AS killed people. One that springs to mind is the dude that was sleeping in his mining room and died through heat exhaustion. So I'm sorry to say your wrong. Bit coin mining AS killed! :-)

Impressive that he was able to post on a forum after he died.

I've looked for the article but Google is so fixed that it just wants to show bitcoin is dieing! No surprises there! Of cause he didnt report his own death though, How does your brain work to even suggest such a thing!!!

He didn't die, he just posted on a forum claiming he suffered from heatstroke while he slept.

Well your not obviously on about who i am! Jesus! Give me strength!

Did you die and leave your ghost to post?

[kano]

So are staff getting anywhere with this thread or did it die in offtopic?

Yes it died on the first page ...

[k9quaint]

So are staff getting anywhere with this thread or did it die in offtopic?

Yes it died on the first page ...

I think given the diverse participants in this thread and in the various threads on the forums, the mods can see now that it is not "just a few troublemakers".
A single forum is reflecting most of the difficulties in the ASIC marketplace. Right now the only economical miners are ASICs, therefore this forum is home to most of the problems and issues in Bitcoin mining.

[RChevalier]

So you describe a problem, ask for help on solutions...

and the resulting 11 pages that follow are the same problems you describe: vendor hate, people calling people whatever, people talking off topic, with some genuinely trying to address the OP's issue, and etc.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending or any of that, just an honest question:  If you really wanted to change this, why don't you just "moderate"?  you know, like your title says.  Use your common sense/best discretion.  If someone starts bashing BFL in the KNC thread, tell them to stay on topic.  If someone calls someone a whatever tell them to keep it civil.  If Josh calls his customers a moron cuz they want their money back for an undelivered product, tell him to act professional.  If people refuse, just ban them for a bit?  I don't know...

Or don't.  It's up to you.  Just that most of the other forums I goto, this is what the "moderator" tends to do.

I personally like the forum exactly the way it is.  I like reading all the bashing, all the useful information, all the drama, it's like watching reality tv almost.  I like it when people go at it like Bitcoinorama and KS, within their exchanges you can glean useful info from both sides, and generally be more educated thanks to their efforts.  You can find useful info in just about any posts here if you look for them.

I love this forum.

[stormlighter]

So you describe a problem, ask for help on solutions...

and the resulting 11 pages that follow are the same problems you describe: vendor hate, people calling people whatever, people talking off topic, with some genuinely trying to address the OP's issue, and etc.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending or any of that, just an honest question:  If you really wanted to change this, why don't you just "moderate"?  you know, like your title says.  Use your common sense/best discretion.  If someone starts bashing BFL in the KNC thread, tell them to stay on topic.  If someone calls someone a whatever tell them to keep it civil.  If Josh calls his customers a moron cuz they want their money back for an undelivered product, tell him to act professional.  If people refuse, just ban them for a bit?  I don't know...

Or don't.  It's up to you.  Just that most of the other forums I goto, this is what the "moderator" tends to do.


I love this forum.

+1
Get to it Staff!

So are staff getting anywhere with this thread or did it die in offtopic?

Yes it died on the first page ...

... then why do we even bother..... :/

[Bicknellski]

So you describe a problem, ask for help on solutions...

and the resulting 11 pages that follow are the same problems you describe: vendor hate, people calling people whatever, people talking off topic, with some genuinely trying to address the OP's issue, and etc.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending or any of that, just an honest question:  If you really wanted to change this, why don't you just "moderate"?  you know, like your title says.  Use your common sense/best discretion.  If someone starts bashing BFL in the KNC thread, tell them to stay on topic.  If someone calls someone a whatever tell them to keep it civil.  If Josh calls his customers a moron cuz they want their money back for an undelivered product, tell him to act professional.  If people refuse, just ban them for a bit?  I don't know...

Or don't.  It's up to you.  Just that most of the other forums I goto, this is what the "moderator" tends to do.

I personally like the forum exactly the way it is.  I like reading all the bashing, all the useful information, all the drama, it's like watching reality tv almost.  I like it when people go at it like Bitcoinorama and KS, within their exchanges you can glean useful info from both sides, and generally be more educated thanks to their efforts.  You can find useful info in just about any posts here if you look for them.

I love this forum.

I love some parts... others not so much.

[iikun]

So you describe a problem, ask for help on solutions...

and the resulting 11 pages that follow are the same problems you describe: vendor hate, people calling people whatever, people talking off topic, with some genuinely trying to address the OP's issue, and etc.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending or any of that, just an honest question:  If you really wanted to change this, why don't you just "moderate"?  you know, like your title says.  Use your common sense/best discretion.  If someone starts bashing BFL in the KNC thread, tell them to stay on topic.  If someone calls someone a whatever tell them to keep it civil.  If Josh calls his customers a moron cuz they want their money back for an undelivered product, tell him to act professional.  If people refuse, just ban them for a bit?  I don't know...

Or don't.  It's up to you.  Just that most of the other forums I goto, this is what the "moderator" tends to do.

I personally like the forum exactly the way it is.  I like reading all the bashing, all the useful information, all the drama, it's like watching reality tv almost.  I like it when people go at it like Bitcoinorama and KS, within their exchanges you can glean useful info from both sides, and generally be more educated thanks to their efforts.  You can find useful info in just about any posts here if you look for them.

I love this forum.

exactly. If even this thread can't be moderated to keep it on topic then what hope does the rest of the forum have? 
Given the minimalist stance the mods take here it should probably just be left the way it is..better nothing than selective editing or what have you.

[ProfMac]

This is completely off topic.

[Batshit]

So you describe a problem, ask for help on solutions...

and the resulting 11 pages that follow are the same problems you describe: vendor hate, people calling people whatever, people talking off topic, with some genuinely trying to address the OP's issue, and etc.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending or any of that, just an honest question:  If you really wanted to change this, why don't you just "moderate"?  you know, like your title says.  Use your common sense/best discretion.  If someone starts bashing BFL in the KNC thread, tell them to stay on topic.  If someone calls someone a whatever tell them to keep it civil.  If Josh calls his customers a moron cuz they want their money back for an undelivered product, tell him to act professional.  If people refuse, just ban them for a bit?  I don't know...

Or don't.  It's up to you.  Just that most of the other forums I goto, this is what the "moderator" tends to do.

I personally like the forum exactly the way it is.  I like reading all the bashing, all the useful information, all the drama, it's like watching reality tv almost.  I like it when people go at it like Bitcoinorama and KS, within their exchanges you can glean useful info from both sides, and generally be more educated thanks to their efforts.  You can find useful info in just about any posts here if you look for them.

I love this forum.

+1
I am a noob and I approve this post.

[DPoS]

I think it all went downhill when the mods seemed to defend BFL instead of slapping the scammer tag on them. then everyone guessed its because of the advertisement vested interest

I think the forum created their own messy bed and have to sleep in it until they have higher standards but in this economy we know that is impossible

such are the times

[BadBear]

I think it all went downhill when the mods seemed to defend BFL instead of slapping the scammer tag on them. then everyone guessed its because of the advertisement vested interest

I think the forum created their own messy bed and have to sleep in it until they have higher standards but in this economy we know that is impossible

such are the times

We aren't the one sleeping in the bed, you guys are. We just change the sheets occasionally.

[k9quaint]

I think it all went downhill when the mods seemed to defend BFL instead of slapping the scammer tag on them. then everyone guessed its because of the advertisement vested interest

I think the forum created their own messy bed and have to sleep in it until they have higher standards but in this economy we know that is impossible

such are the times

We aren't the one sleeping in the bed, you guys are. We just change the sheets occasionally.

One can sleep in a bed while blackout drunk and not remember a thing. I challenge you to change sheets under such circumstances 

[shapemaker]

I think it all went downhill when the mods seemed to defend BFL instead of slapping the scammer tag on them. then everyone guessed its because of the advertisement vested interest
[...]

We aren't the one sleeping in the bed, you guys are. We just change the sheets occasionally.

I take it you're not going to even bother answering the actual question there. The one being about BFL scammer tag and advertising revenue.

If so, this thread is pointless.

[BadBear]

I think it all went downhill when the mods seemed to defend BFL instead of slapping the scammer tag on them. then everyone guessed its because of the advertisement vested interest
[...]

We aren't the one sleeping in the bed, you guys are. We just change the sheets occasionally.

I take it you're not going to even bother answering the actual question there. The one being about BFL scammer tag and advertising revenue.

If so, this thread is pointless.

There was a question there? Looks like statements to me. 

[shapemaker]

I think it all went downhill when the mods seemed to defend BFL instead of slapping the scammer tag on them. then everyone guessed its because of the advertisement vested interest
[...]

We aren't the one sleeping in the bed, you guys are. We just change the sheets occasionally.

I take it you're not going to even bother answering the actual question there. The one being about BFL scammer tag and advertising revenue.

If so, this thread is pointless.

There was a question there? Looks like statements to me. 

Please don't act dense. You know perfectly well what I and the OP meant.

Let's do it this way then: "Will the moderators ban BFL from advertising at these forums? Will the moderators hand out SCAMMER tags to BFL employees/accounts?"

[BadBear]

I think it all went downhill when the mods seemed to defend BFL instead of slapping the scammer tag on them. then everyone guessed its because of the advertisement vested interest
[...]

We aren't the one sleeping in the bed, you guys are. We just change the sheets occasionally.

I take it you're not going to even bother answering the actual question there. The one being about BFL scammer tag and advertising revenue.

If so, this thread is pointless.

There was a question there? Looks like statements to me. 

Please don't act dense. You know perfectly well what I and the OP meant.

Let's do it this way then: "Will the moderators ban BFL from advertising at these forums? Will the moderators hand out SCAMMER tags to BFL employees/accounts?"

You do realize that mods can't actually do either one of those right? 

[frankenmint]

I think it all went downhill when the mods seemed to defend BFL instead of slapping the scammer tag on them. then everyone guessed its because of the advertisement vested interest
[...]

We aren't the one sleeping in the bed, you guys are. We just change the sheets occasionally.

I take it you're not going to even bother answering the actual question there. The one being about BFL scammer tag and advertising revenue.

If so, this thread is pointless.

There was a question there? Looks like statements to me. 

Please don't act dense. You know perfectly well what I and the OP meant.

Let's do it this way then: "Will the moderators ban BFL from advertising at these forums? Will the moderators hand out SCAMMER tags to BFL employees/accounts?"

You do realize that mods can't actually do either one of those right? 

.....why not?

[shapemaker]

I think it all went downhill when the mods seemed to defend BFL instead of slapping the scammer tag on them. then everyone guessed its because of the advertisement vested interest
[...]

We aren't the one sleeping in the bed, you guys are. We just change the sheets occasionally.

I take it you're not going to even bother answering the actual question there. The one being about BFL scammer tag and advertising revenue.

If so, this thread is pointless.

There was a question there? Looks like statements to me. 

Please don't act dense. You know perfectly well what I and the OP meant.

Let's do it this way then: "Will the moderators ban BFL from advertising at these forums? Will the moderators hand out SCAMMER tags to BFL employees/accounts?"

You do realize that mods can't actually do either one of those right? 

No, I don't realize that as I had no idea what rights the moderators have on this forum. So you're saying Theymos (the admin? are there more admins?) is the only person responsible for advertising and setting tags on people? Thank you for clearing that out. Now we know that you're not to blame for this mess with BFL.

So, I guess you're in a tough spot then. Looks like the forum administration likes money more than integrity. What a surprise...

[Raoul Duke]

So you're saying Theymos (the admin? are there more admins?) is the only person responsible for advertising and setting tags on people?

That's exactly what he's saying, and as far as I know that's no secret.
Yes, there are more admins. You don't need to ask, just check the members list ordered by Position.

[YipYip]

MODS cant do it......Ok that puts a different complexion on it all ....

Its strange...THIS fact is not widely known....3 months ago you argued with us tirelessy over why not to give them a tag etc  ...

It could have been defused instantly by this one statement ...

Oh wells .. at least it is just now 1 persons greed ...

[shapemaker]

So you're saying Theymos (the admin? are there more admins?) is the only person responsible for advertising and setting tags on people?

That's exactly what he's saying, and as far as I know that's no secret.
Yes, there are more admins. You don't need to ask, just check the members list ordered by Position.

Thanks again for the info you both provided. As I said, I had no idea that you couldn't do those things. Maybe the lack of that particular information has partly fanned the flames around here...

[creativex]

This is fairly common knowledge and is why so many threads are addressed directly to Theymos.

[BadBear]

This is fairly common knowledge and is why so many threads are addressed directly to Theymos.

This, I'm pretty sure most knew that already. If you guys want to waste your time with assumptions, well it's your time to waste. I don't make it a habit to waste my own time correcting it though.

[Bicknellski]

This is fairly common knowledge and is why so many threads are addressed directly to Theymos.

This, I'm pretty sure most knew that already. If you guys want to waste your time with assumptions, well it's your time to waste. I don't make it a habit to waste my own time correcting it though.

Nope didn't know... further don't care.

[shapemaker]

This is fairly common knowledge and is why so many threads are addressed directly to Theymos.

This, I'm pretty sure most knew that already. If you guys want to waste your time with assumptions, well it's your time to waste. I don't make it a habit to waste my own time correcting it though.

Well, seeing as you can't do a thing about the very reason there's so much "vendor hate" here on this forum, I fail to see the point in this thread then.

Start doing your job and moderate the excessive flaming I guess? Or leave the stuff be. Your choice. There's no easy solution since the administration clearly wants to take the money and keep promoting (a) fraudulent seller(s).

Whatever you choose, be consistent in your decision(s).

[2112]

For all who may have missed it: below is an example of how far from the reality are some of the readers/posters/wannabes on this forum.

No matter what single policy you may try to apply, there is always someone who will be offended. Or you may end up with a policy where the only allowed posts will be the variants of "fluffy bunnies are nice".

The 1st post was in the Newbie subforum:
Subject: making an asic miner

been reading through forums and was thinking of trying to make one.

seems like the hardest bit is getting the chips. avalon makes theirs from tsmc if im not mistaken. could we just order from tsmc?

The 2nd post was in the main Bitcoin Discussion forum, but was moved to Custom Hardware by the moderator:
Subject: Creating a Hashing chip?

i started this out in the newbies forum but i recently got out of there so i thought here would be a better place to post.

my factory has an assembly line for ic/ chips but we were doing mostly receivers, lnb/ satellite tv accessories. we grab parts from china and assemble in indonesia so we have all needed equipment to assemble. labor is cheap here and i already have an assembly line for this sort of thing. i thought might aswell make some asic miners for u all.

my problem is the chip design/ acquiring the chips.  anyone know a good chip designer and anyone know a rough estimate?

anyone here want to help me out or knows about this sorta thing?

[Stinky_Pete]

For all who may have missed it: below is an example of how far from the reality are some of the readers/posters/wannabes on this forum.

Yes, so other people may be ignorant or ill-informed, especially those in the newbie forums. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to insult them, or otherwise hurl abuse. Leave them in peace, or gently show them the error of their ways and point them to a useful source of fact and/or considered opinion.

[2112]

For all who may have missed it: below is an example of how far from the reality are some of the readers/posters/wannabes on this forum.

Yes, so other people may be ignorant or ill-informed, especially those in the newbie forums. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to insult them, or otherwise hurl abuse. Leave them in peace, or gently show them the error of their ways and point them to a useful source of fact and/or considered opinion.

I think you are very naive and idealistic.

Those who "hurl abuse" are mostly the good guys. In the past they probably also polite, but lost the patience with those who refuse to read any of the openly available information.

The "bad guys" will be first very polite and solictious and then simply rip them off when they acurately measure their weaknesses.

This is how capitalism works.

The way you propose is how some religions/sects operate.

[k9quaint]

For all who may have missed it: below is an example of how far from the reality are some of the readers/posters/wannabes on this forum.

Yes, so other people may be ignorant or ill-informed, especially those in the newbie forums. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to insult them, or otherwise hurl abuse. Leave them in peace, or gently show them the error of their ways and point them to a useful source of fact and/or considered opinion.

I think you are very naive and idealistic.

Those who "hurl abuse" are mostly the good guys. In the past they probably also polite, but lost the patience with those who refuse to read any of the openly available information.

The "bad guys" will be first very polite and solictious and then simply rip them off when they acurately measure their weaknesses.

This is how capitalism works.

The way you propose is how some religions/sects operate.

There is a key difference between that example and many I have seen on this forum. That poster is asking questions. Questions, no matter how naive are fine and generally result in answers, or at least the thread where they can find answers. There will also be some ribbing about use of google, etc.

The problems arise when someone fresh out of the newbie forums begins making pronouncements, like "28nm will never run SHA256!" or other nonsense. That sort of post receives  far more abuse.

[ProfMac]

The "bad guys" will be first very polite and solictious and then simply rip them off when they acurately measure their weaknesses.

This is how capitalism works.

Capitalism is the gathering of resources to accomplish a common purpose.  For example, people in a town may all chip in $500 to build and stock a dry goods store.
It may, or may not, have a separate profit motive.

Ripping people off is just psychopathic behavior, and it can occur in any economic system.

[Xian01]

Zerlan's rants, demeaning his customers, shows that kind of contempt.
Yifu's statements lately have had the same underpinnings.

Or maybe we just get tired of whiny, entitled little brats screaming and crying for attention.  I wonder which is more plausible.

 Yeah, going to have to say that we should allow to continue with various vendor hate around here until the vendors themselves start behaving in such a way that does not produce feelings of hate due to their own conduct.

 Chicken, egg, so on and so forth...

[bcp19]

Zerlan's rants, demeaning his customers, shows that kind of contempt.
Yifu's statements lately have had the same underpinnings.

Or maybe we just get tired of whiny, entitled little brats screaming and crying for attention.  I wonder which is more plausible.

 Yeah, going to have to say that we should allow to continue with various vendor hate around here until the vendors themselves start behaving in such a way that does not produce feelings of hate due to their own conduct.

 Chicken, egg, so on and so forth...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnFr-DOPf8

[Biomech]

For all who may have missed it: below is an example of how far from the reality are some of the readers/posters/wannabes on this forum.

Yes, so other people may be ignorant or ill-informed, especially those in the newbie forums. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to insult them, or otherwise hurl abuse. Leave them in peace, or gently show them the error of their ways and point them to a useful source of fact and/or considered opinion.

This. I am a newbie to bitcoin, been involved for a few months. When I first started posting here, a couple of people were extremely helpful, and a few were extremely abusive. I'm not in any way a newbie to fora, in fact they were called  electronic bulletin board services when I started with posting lo these several decades ago. As time passes, they seem to become less civil.

Heated discussion is one thing, newbie bashing is another. We all were a newbie at whatever it is we do at some point.

[creativex]

Zerlan's rants, demeaning his customers, shows that kind of contempt.
Yifu's statements lately have had the same underpinnings.

Or maybe we just get tired of whiny, entitled little brats screaming and crying for attention. I wonder which is more plausible.

 Yeah, going to have to say that we should allow to continue with various vendor hate around here until the vendors themselves start behaving in such a way that does not produce feelings of hate due to their own conduct.

 Chicken, egg, so on and so forth...

...and here's the same chicken(or egg) acknowledging through his actions that he still needs these forums to maintain his supply of fresh victims customers.

3 @ 7.75

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=284843.0;topicseen

I believe that bitcointalk.org administrators would gain instant respect by simply deleting or blocking that bid.

[Xian01]

...and here's the same chicken(or egg) acknowledging through his actions that he still needs these forums to maintain his supply of fresh victims customers.

3 @ 7.75

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=284843.0;topicseen
I believe that bitcointalk.org administrators would gain instant respect by simply deleting or blocking that bid.

 Won't happen until Theymos is removed as owner of these forums; not likely to happen any time soon.

 He's too busy playing Scrooge McDuck swimming in his piles of Bitcoins from all the advertising revenue Butterfly Labs has paid him. He's not going to kill his golden goose.

 Theymos is just as much of a problem as BFL, as far as these forums and community are concerned.

[zedicus]

Zerlan's rants, demeaning his customers, shows that kind of contempt.
Yifu's statements lately have had the same underpinnings.

Or maybe we just get tired of whiny, entitled little brats screaming and crying for attention. I wonder which is more plausible.

 Yeah, going to have to say that we should allow to continue with various vendor hate around here until the vendors themselves start behaving in such a way that does not produce feelings of hate due to their own conduct.

 Chicken, egg, so on and so forth...

...and here's the same chicken(or egg) acknowledging through his actions that he still needs these forums to maintain his supply of fresh victims customers.

3 @ 7.75

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=284843.0;topicseen

I believe that bitcointalk.org administrators would gain instant respect by simply deleting or blocking that bid.

^^ Indeed! But clearly respect does not power this forum.

At one point there was a thread to raise btc so we could outbid a certain asic vendor and i believe it was posted in custom hardware but it got moved to the woodworks somewhere in the forum where nobody would see it..  (remember the "WARNING ads")

It wasn't theymos who moved it .. it was a mod if my memory serves me correctly but i may be mistaken. I cant believe i forgot the name of the guy who started the thread. He was someone who was ripped off by bitfloor during the first fiasco. ( ill remember eventually, he saved me from the second bitfloor fiasco when he was urging people to jump ship. )


Anyway .. the issue is how do we fund the this forum with regular advertising revenue, ala outbidding the scammers who clearly have used the freedoms in this forum to prey on bitcoin and participants.

Clearly if we were to replace the regular revenue stream im sure theymos wouldn't care if there were 0 ads on this forum as long as he got his.

Blaming theymos for trying to keep the lights on wont get anywhere.  


I think the forums biggest asset is its freedom of speech, we should preserve that and be an example to other community's. The trolling can be curtailed by adding a feature that after certain amount of ignores you get a temp ban from the thread.. Even if its 1 day or 2 days.. Maybe a known troll tag wouldn't hurt either.

Hate is just a feeling like love .. we cant have one without the other so its important to tread carefully.

To be honest i dont mind the contrast.. i love when people get intellectually muted and its always good to "listen" to opposing arguments as long as its constructive..

You know what they say... "If everyone is thinking the same then someone isn't thinking!"    


So moving forward lets find a way to power this forum with respect by eliminating the ability for asic vendors to prey on unsuspecting participant of bitcoin by plastering their ads all over the forums. Also if we could stop Asic vendors from creating multiple threads.

Every asic vendor should have a single thread for questions, comments, concerns & inquiry's. Maybe one other thread for support!

So max two threads for asic vendors!


Usually when vendors hear discontent from customers they try to oblige but here people are angry and throwing tomatoes and instead of catering to the issues the asic vendors just start a new thread! If they are quarantined to a two thread setup, one for general and one for support then they are a bit more obligated to deal with the issues then to let it boil and turn to hate!

Because once the hate machine start churning in a thread its likely to result in loss of customers.






 

[creativex]

...and here's the same chicken(or egg) acknowledging through his actions that he still needs these forums to maintain his supply of fresh victims customers.

3 @ 7.75

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=284843.0;topicseen
I believe that bitcointalk.org administrators would gain instant respect by simply deleting or blocking that bid.

 Won't happen until Theymos is removed as owner of these forums; not likely to happen any time soon.

 He's too busy playing Scrooge McDuck swimming in his piles of Bitcoins from all the advertising revenue Butterfly Labs has paid him. He's not going to kill his golden goose.

 Theymos is just as much of a problem as BFL, as far as these forums and community are concerned.

BFL's relevance is dwindling anyway(funny how garbage business practices do that). Josh's foaming at the mouth rants don't garner the same newbie adoration they once did. Knc and others are taking the lead on gobbling up ad space. Theymos can keep his pile of ill gotten gains AND do the right thing.

[DPoS]

Do what most other forums do.  Contain it to one thread.  When a poster makes post after post that follow closely the same line of conversation of another thread.  Close it and have the last response point to the other thread that is already covering that topic.

Moderators need to use their opinion as to whether the subject deserves a new topic or not.  But in this way, you are not removing what anyone is saying, you are simply consolidating where the conversation is happening into the proper thread. 

I agree, we don't need frothing BFL hate in a KnC thread, for example.

We also don't need frothing BFL love in there either

[DPoS]

[ANN] Tin foil group buy!

0.2 BTC per roll.

 brilliant.... well played

[2112]

Capitalism is the gathering of resources to accomplish a common purpose.  For example, people in a town may all chip in $500 to build and stock a dry goods store.
It may, or may not, have a separate profit motive.

You started with a tendentious quotation of my post, then followed with "capitalism is ..." and described some mixture of syndicalism and a cooperative. Writing like this would get you flunked out of pretty much any policical economy class. What are you trying to achieve?
 

Ripping people off is just psychopathic behavior, and it can occur in any economic system.

Yes, that is true. But you seem to be making an assumption than the "psychopathic behavior" is exclusively on the part of the "ripper-s". What about the "psychopathic behavior" of the "victim-s/rippee-s". This second case is probably the most common one here on this forum: in the role of the "ripper" we have "mathematics", "laws of physics", "random carelessness and inattention" and other ethically neutral mechanisms.

[2112]

Yes, so other people may be ignorant or ill-informed, especially those in the newbie forums. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to insult them, or otherwise hurl abuse. Leave them in peace, or gently show them the error of their ways and point them to a useful source of fact and/or considered opinion.

This. I am a newbie to bitcoin, been involved for a few months. When I first started posting here, a couple of people were extremely helpful, and a few were extremely abusive. I'm not in any way a newbie to fora, in fact they were called  electronic bulletin board services when I started with posting lo these several decades ago. As time passes, they seem to become less civil.

Heated discussion is one thing, newbie bashing is another. We all were a newbie at whatever it is we do at some point.

I agree with both of you that the default treatment for a newbie shouldn't be "bashing". But you can't allow yourselves to bunch all newbies into a single group, because there is a whole spectrum of newbie-tude.

I read a few of Biomech's earliest posts and I rate him "neutral", because he didn't start with trying to sell or organize something.

Now lets take a look at the extreme-positive rating: helveticoin, a wannabe vendor who is a well-prepared newbie.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=82676;sa=showPosts

Now lets focus on "sie": extremely negative newbie/wannabe-vendor in Bitcoin, but clearly claiming not to be a newbie in electronic design, fabrication, assembly, etc.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=148463;sa=showPosts

Again, you can't just put all newbies into a single "protected" group that by default gets a "kid gloves" treatment.

[Biomech]

Yes, so other people may be ignorant or ill-informed, especially those in the newbie forums. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to insult them, or otherwise hurl abuse. Leave them in peace, or gently show them the error of their ways and point them to a useful source of fact and/or considered opinion.

This. I am a newbie to bitcoin, been involved for a few months. When I first started posting here, a couple of people were extremely helpful, and a few were extremely abusive. I'm not in any way a newbie to fora, in fact they were called  electronic bulletin board services when I started with posting lo these several decades ago. As time passes, they seem to become less civil.

Heated discussion is one thing, newbie bashing is another. We all were a newbie at whatever it is we do at some point.

I agree with both of you that the default treatment for a newbie shouldn't be "bashing". But you can't allow yourselves to bunch all newbies into a single group, because there is a whole spectrum of newbie-tude.

I read a few of Biomech's earliest posts and I rate him "neutral", because he didn't start with trying to sell or organize something.

Now lets take a look at the extreme-positive rating: helveticoin, a wannabe vendor who is a well-prepared newbie.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=82676;sa=showPosts

Now lets focus on "sie": extremely negative newbie/wannabe-vendor in Bitcoin, but clearly claiming not to be a newbie in electronic design, fabrication, assembly, etc.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=148463;sa=showPosts

Again, you can't just put all newbies into a single "protected" group that by default gets a "kid gloves" treatment.

, hell, I can't even organize my life! But I agree with you in general. Some people just walk in with "kick me" plastered on their forehead.

In a totally unrelated matter, does your screen name refer to Rush's 2112? If so, there's a subject I've not been a newbie on since 1978

[2112]

In a totally unrelated matter, does your screen name refer to Rush's 2112? If so, there's a subject I've not been a newbie on since 1978

90125 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItZqTueAaqU

[Syke]

Does anyone have any great ideas?

Tag the worst vendors as scammers and/or ban them.

As long as you permit these crap vendors to run amuk, there is going to be non-stop well-justified hate towards them.

Here's another example of BFL failing to meet deadlines and refusing refunds.

Unfortunately considering the lack of positive news on peoples refunds, I have not gone down that route.  My time is worth much more than calling BFL daily for nothing.

If some success actually happens in the community then my priorities will obviously change.

EDIT: No one should have to be in the position I am in right now.

[FUKT]

Capitalism is the gathering of resources to accomplish a common purpose.  For example, people in a town may all chip in $500 to build and stock a dry goods store.
It may, or may not, have a separate profit motive.

You started with a tendentious quotation of my post, then followed with "capitalism is ..." and described some mixture of syndicalism and a cooperative. Writing like this would get you flunked out of pretty much any policical economy class. What are you trying to achieve?
 

Ripping people off is just psychopathic behavior, and it can occur in any economic system.

Yes, that is true. But you seem to be making an assumption than the "psychopathic behavior" is exclusively on the part of the "ripper-s". What about the "psychopathic behavior" of the "victim-s/rippee-s". This second case is probably the most common one here on this forum: in the role of the "ripper" we have "mathematics", "laws of physics", "random carelessness and inattention" and other ethically neutral mechanisms.

This is the sort of post that represents a large portion of everything that is wrong with this forum and to a larger degree western/anglo forums. The usual tit for tat, my ego is greater than your ego, youre stupid and I'm smart. Notice the use of the word "You" in a almost accusatory role, this then creates tension and opens the door for further retorts etc. I'm sick of seeing posts that escalate from nothing to pages upon pages of arguing over the origins of M5 hex screws or some inane banal drivel. Try visiting a Chinese or nearly any other Asian technical forum and translate their conversations and you will be very surprised, its a lot different from Anglo forums where individual ego almost certainly outweigh collective common.

On another note, I dont have a problem with BFL advertising on this forum, the problem I have is that some people are clicking the links and actually ordering. BFL wouldnt be advertising if they didnt already know that they would get orders through that method.

[2112]

This is the sort of post that represents a large portion of everything that is wrong with this forum and to a larger degree western/anglo forums. The usual tit for tat, my ego is greater than your ego, youre stupid and I'm smart. Notice the use of the word "You" in a almost accusatory role, this then creates tension and opens the door for further retorts etc. I'm sick of seeing posts that escalate from nothing to pages upon pages of arguing over the origins of M5 hex screws or some inane banal drivel. Try visiting a Chinese or nearly any other Asian technical forum and translate their conversations and you will be very surprised, its a lot different from Anglo forums where individual ego almost certainly outweigh collective common.

On another note, I dont have a problem with BFL advertising on this forum, the problem I have is that some people are clicking the links and actually ordering. BFL wouldnt be advertising if they didnt already know that they would get orders through that method.

What you just wrote is just a truism in cultural studies: language mirrors the society in which it is used. In egalitarian societes direct communication prevails. In hierarchical societies the polite communication is the norm. You should really broaden your knowledge of non-western/non-anglo forums by looking at what's going on in the Russian/cyrillic forums or maybe some latin-alphabet/Central-Eastern European language forums like Romanian (and their representative for the English-speaking word: MPOE-PR). Or even better: jump into Hebrew/Israeli forums. Only then you can understand that the English way is actually the middle-of-the-road.

Vladimir actually tried to start a Bitcoin Disneyland forum on his own and foresworn visiting bitcointalk.org. Go see the forum.bitcoin.org.uk or wherever is his tumbleweed city.

Please feel free to follow his experiment; set up bitcoinu-talku.or.jp and practice your humble speech, polite language there. We'll see you back here in a year or two.

Edit: or if obtaining the knowledge in the linguistic way is too hard then do it the old way: volunteer for the military service or start competing in some group sports. That's the quickest way to develop some fortitude.

Edit2: be glad that BitcoinTalk doesn't attract women and especially Israeli women who served in the IDF. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Israel_Defense_Forces

Edit3: on a second thought: a girl with a Sten is not the best illustration for my argument. Let me try using a men reading a poster on a wall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashkvil

[Bicknellski]

http://www.npr.org/2012/06/04/154287476/honest-truth-about-why-we-lie-cheat-and-steal

On how our cashless economy may encourage cheaters

"The moment something is one step removed from money ... people can cheat more and [still] feel good about themselves. It basically relieves people from the moral shackles. And, the reason this worries me so much is because if you think about modern society, we are creating lots of cashless economy. We have electronic wallets, we have mortgage-backed securities, we have stock options, and could it be that all of those payment modalities that as they get more and more further from money become easier for us to cheat and be dishonest with them."


Some people are relieved of those moral shackles more easily than others it seems and that is where the angry mob of pitchfork wielding townies is coming from in this community and it is being directed squarely at those that are lying and cheating on fairly large scale. Freedom to lie is not freedom of speech. We all cheat... some just do it on grand scale and have Zero remorse and that is the problem here.


http://www.npr.org/2012/04/27/150818706/why-do-we-cheat

[creativex]

Thank you theymos. Take back any bad things I thought about you.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=284843.msg3105242#msg3105242

[shapemaker]

Thank you theymos. Take back any bad things I thought about you.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=284843.msg3105242#msg3105242

BFL just lost the auction since others outbid Josh. theymos didn't in any way indicate BFL shouldn't/couldn't bid on that, so nothing has changed in that regard.

Don't be so quick to say "all is well".

Funny to see Josh whine in that thread though

[creativex]

Dang. Yer rite, I got it stuck in my head there were 10 spots up for auction.

[mruiter]

Re: Do we want to continue to allow various vendor hate in here?


YES

BFL sucks
BFL Josh = Assh....
BFL Jody = Conn Artist that blogs (ok but she at least tries...)

[creativex]

Don't forget Nasser's nonsensical posts lately. Minirig lines that aren't slowed down, but are delayed? He doesn't even seem to read Jody's blog before he waxes stoopit...it's unreal. BFL reps are like comic book villains that have had too much hemlock.

Safe to say as long as this scam is going on and people are being looted wholesale there will be plenty of anger directed at them.

[DyslexicZombei]

This is the sort of post that represents a large portion of everything that is wrong with this forum and to a larger degree western/anglo forums. The usual tit for tat, my ego is greater than your ego, youre stupid and I'm smart. Notice the use of the word "You" in a almost accusatory role, this then creates tension and opens the door for further retorts etc. I'm sick of seeing posts that escalate from nothing to pages upon pages of arguing over the origins of M5 hex screws or some inane banal drivel. Try visiting a Chinese or nearly any other Asian technical forum and translate their conversations and you will be very surprised, its a lot different from Anglo forums where individual ego almost certainly outweigh collective common.

On another note, I dont have a problem with BFL advertising on this forum, the problem I have is that some people are clicking the links and actually ordering. BFL wouldnt be advertising if they didnt already know that they would get orders through that method.

What you just wrote is just a truism in cultural studies: language mirrors the society in which it is used. In egalitarian societes direct communication prevails. In hierarchical societies the polite communication is the norm. You should really broaden your knowledge of non-western/non-anglo forums by looking at what's going on in the Russian/cyrillic forums or maybe some latin-alphabet/Central-Eastern European language forums like Romanian (and their representative for the English-speaking word: MPOE-PR). Or even better: jump into Hebrew/Israeli forums. Only then you can understand that the English way is actually the middle-of-the-road.

Fascinating! Thank you both for your cultural insights and contributions to what's turned into a deep and meaningful discussion.

As an amateur historian that is a product of East and West, and someone that lives at a junction of East and West: Hawaii, AKA Fortress Central Pacific (unofficial PACOM motto: "Ain't gonna be 'nother Pearl Harbor sneak attack on our watch") in a time where it has increasing geopolitical and strategic importance in any potential illogical showdown between China & the US in this century, I welcome insights such as this as I know and welcome the fact that I *don't* know everything and cannot possibly be an expert in *everything*. Human knowledge is just too broad and too deep for any one of us to be an expert in more then a handful of things. If you're semi-enlightened or even semi-aware of others, you value everyone's insights and welcome everyone's meaningful contributions.

I minored in linguistics in college as language & how it's used has always fascinated me; I hate to be simplistic but it truly can be used for Good or Evil (yet another concept that may simply be a human construct). As I don't speak any of those languages I truly appreciate your insight as seen through the rose tinted glasses of the host languages you mention. I speak Spanish (poorly) and also what linguists call HCE or Hawaii Creole English AKA Pidgin English; what would be considered it's own language or sub-language. An example you've probably heard stereotyped in shows like Hawaii 5-0: "Howzit, brah!" I slip into it and out of it easily and simply depending on who I'm talking to in the state of Hawaii. Another fun example: "You goin' stay or you stay goin'?"

HCE or Pidgin English came about because it was the Lingua franca of many different groups of migrants from around the world who came to Hawaii to seek their fortunes and send money home to the motherland. At this point in the 21st century, English is the Lingua fraca of the Western World and will remain so unless the current Chinese PM has his way (which could not be out of the realm of possibility, in a parallel universe; because I love a good alt. history story).

===========

I, for one, appreciate the free speech and wide latitude here. At least around here, no one cares much for the heavy hand of censorship. I feel that the venting and ribbing we see around here serve as a community service by simply *allowing* people to vent and joke about things, because to gripe and make fun of things is about as intrinsic to human nature as breathing. And let's be honest: some people have invested and lost tens of thousands of dollars (or more!). Ergo, they should be pissed off! My grandfather fought Nazis and Italians in WW2 as part of the 442nd Regiment of Japanese-American volunteers so that they *could* have the right to be pissed! Gramps carried around a .30 cal Browning automatic that was ripped out of a damaged airplane in Italy and later brought it with him to Southern France. Here's a little more about Grandpa: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1ka8kp/iama_99_year_old_woman_who_helped_her_mother_make/cbn16qb

I truly don't think the young 'uns realize just how close run of a thing World War 2 really was; if we don't get really lucky at the Battles of: Britain (thankfully British engineers had the foresight to install Radar combined with the fact that Hitler was a terrible Strategist), Pearl Harbor (no carriers in harbor at attack; fuel bunkers otherwise untouched as well), and Midway (outnumbered but caught Japanese carriers with pants down (ordnance lying all over the deck) with JPN navy at it's peak strength and USN still at its ebb; Honolulu would have followed), the Free World may have had to have made peace with evil German or Japanese dictatorships in control of large swathes of the world and its populace. 50-60 MILLION people had to die around the world to defend freedom and we, their descendents in all countries, pay them a huge disrespect if we forget this. Although people in the Western World may see Chinese and Russians as potential enemies, I recognize and respect the huge losses Russia and China sustained in WW2. There's simply no way World War 2 is won without the manpower and contributions of both countries.

I'm delighted to be in a spacetime with such amazing opportunities - and pitfalls to be sure - that are afforded us for those that have the wherewithal and resources to invest in ventures such as Bitcoin, Bitcoin mining, and related hardware and businesses. I feel very, very fortunate to be along for the ride wherever this BTC protocol is going.

===

BTW, to bring it back On Topic, I'm running an interesting experiment with my small miner's co-op of 15 members where we all vote on major things; so far, so good! They voted to move our Baby Jet from a pro colo site in Missouri to a really, really good amateur colo site of a member in NY! I didn't even have to vote in either major vote we did and I tried to lay out the pros/cons of various hosting options as pragmatically as possible.

There's no way the paragraph above is even possible just five years ago because Bitcoin itself was still in Satoshi's brain whether that was one brain or several people's brains...and irony alert, as a product of an egalitarian society who's interested in linguistics, I'm completely aware of all the use of "I" and "You" throughout this post.  

Cheers mates!

[shapemaker]

Fascinating! Thank you both for your cultural insights and contributions to what's turned into a deep and meaningful discussion.

[...]

Cheers mates!

What is this I dont even...

A post with historical references, logical argumenting, linguistics, good grammar, even some humour. You even managed to tie in a larger reference with WW2, free world and how we stand on the shoulders of giants.

I must ask that the mods ban you for a week or so for daring to put so much sense in a single post

[DyslexicZombei]

Fascinating! Thank you both for your cultural insights and contributions to what's turned into a deep and meaningful discussion.

[...]

Cheers mates!

What is this I dont even...

A post with historical references, logical argumenting, linguistics, good grammar, even some humour. You even managed to tie in a larger reference with WW2, free world and how we stand on the shoulders of giants.

I must ask that the mods ban you for a week or so for daring to put so much sense in a single post

Hahhaah! Why, thank you.

With that said: I'm heading to the local sports bar soon to watch young men batter the crap out of each other for obscene amounts of money!    

I love sports and the strategy behind sports (I enjoy the coaching match behind the scenes in many sports). Interesting to note that Mayweather's fight game is 95% mental...much like BTC investing and ASIC pre-orders is 100% mental! I have no bet in this game, I'm just enjoying the chess match and fireworks.

If Rome is burning, I want a front row seat and a pocket full of BTC.

And popcorn.

Edit: I'll call it now: Canelo may have a puncher's chance and has a shot at flooring Mayweather for the first time in his career even if he doesn't win.  

9/15 update: Was right about the mental part as far as the fight; Failed as far as the outcome. Lesson: Great defense still beats good offense.

[Zeek_W]

I think that if a vendor (no matter which) has operated in such a manner that obviously causes the general population of users financial and/or trust hardships then they should definately be called out and be made accountable.

The current issue of raginazn (although I have only been watching occasionally) shows exactly why people start getting pitchforks.

Also if a vendor operates on BTC prices and refunds in USD then that is a very iffy thing.

In the end, no matter what, we are dealing in BTC, a currency based on decentralisation and anonymity. Trust is No1 priority.

[DyslexicZombei]

Fascinating! Thank you both for your cultural insights and contributions to what's turned into a deep and meaningful discussion.

[...]

Cheers mates!

What is this I dont even...

A post with historical references, logical argumenting, linguistics, good grammar, even some humour. You even managed to tie in a larger reference with WW2, free world and how we stand on the shoulders of giants.

I must ask that the mods ban you for a week or so for daring to put so much sense in a single post

BTW, also we can't forget that "The Greatest Generation" were snot nosed kids that listened to music that the old timers hated, and didn't "get off the lawn" at one point too. They were scared and had to put their belt on in the morning, just like you.

We do them, and our ancestors, a disservice too if we don't try to achieve all that we can in whatever we try. I think Gramps would be stoked about me participating in something that empowers people and helps protect their families from inflation by participating in a naturally deflationary currency (even if he may not have understood the digital crypto aspect).

P.S. To Zeek_W: I think raginazn managed to straighten out his Customer Service issues he may have been facing you mentioned. I understand he may be facing some mental difficulties at the moment. Let's not forget mental injuries can be just as painful and debilitating as physical injuries, even if the damage isn't visible.