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Author Topic: The problem with atheism.  (Read 38341 times)
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September 15, 2013, 06:33:20 PM
 #141

Of course, I do believe that some have made a distinct choice here to reject God.  That is a bit risky I think.  

Atheists don't reject God.  They say that there is no more proof that the Christian God exists than any of the other Gods invented by men exist.    I'm assuming you are talking about the Christian God of course since you reference Hell and such.  You can't reject something if you don't know if it even exists or not.

Why is it risky to reject ancient myth and superstition?

God gives me a brain with which I can reason.  Then he offers up no proof or evidence of his existence and he's going to punish me for not believing old stories, many of which are very silly?  I've said many times that I think the Christian God is quite petty.  Which doesn't make sense to me if he's wise, all-knowing and benevolent.  Religious leaders on the hand...

There's no proof in science at all, either.  You can never say "prove" in science and be correct because of the problem of induction.  You can use inference to support a point, but not to prove it.  
 

Science doesn't have anything to do with it.  You could disprove science tomorrow and there would still be no evidence of God, no reason to believe in it.  

Science was invoked in this conversation as an opposite to religion, which, although incorrect, is often the dichotomy proposed in atheist vs. religion debates.  This point is relevant to the extent that, if god exists, there would never be an absolute way of confirming this through empirical inference.  This means that those of us who have had a direct experience with god naturally have one hell of a time trying to convince someone else of what we experienced, namely because it's impossible.  But, it is the nature of something that is absolutely knowable to be impossible to prove, and this is because absolute knowledge can only result from direct perception or observation.

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September 15, 2013, 08:25:52 PM
 #142

That said, if a person was walking on a cliff that was blind and someone warned him to be careful not to go over the edge and the blind person responded, "I don't believe that there I am even on a cliff!"  Would that keep him from walking off the edge?  When he stepped over the side he would still fall to the ground, perhaps saying, "Oops.  My Bad!" Weather or not a person believes something does not change what the truth really is.

So you are saying Atheist have some sort of crippled senses/thinking, like a blind person. And because they will never be able to understand you reasoning, like the blind person will never be able to see they have to trust the reasoning of the theists for ever, unable to understand it.

Or don't have atheist crippled sense and their senses tell them there is no cliff. Then your analogy doesn't work.

Or theist are the blind ones that just believe there is a cliff because they haven been told so by other blind one their entire live?

The Bible says that we were "once blind but now we see."  All of humanity has "crippled senses/thinking" and only some come to see that when they search for God.  Anyone can "see" but they have to want to.  I think that there are many that purposely choose not too though.  Pride (the belief that we know more than God or do not need God) is what keeps so many from even starting to search or having the desire too.  If a person humbles himself enough to pray God hears that prayer and then will reveal Himself to them.

To be clear I would never say that I am better than an Atheist!  If I, as a Christian, felt that I was it would be pride.  If I do not have love for Atheist or all people regardless of religion then I am nothing!  But is it wrong to say that I have "seen the light?"  It would be wrong not to share that "light" with others, just as it would be wrong not to tell someone that they had blinders on that they were nearing an edge of a cliff.  In sharing the "light" I feel I am loving others, even if they take it as judgmental.  


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September 15, 2013, 08:32:54 PM
 #143


  I was originally repulse by religion because of the threat making- "you are going to hell if you don't believe what I believe." The more power a system of thought has, the more potential it has to be abused by power hungry groups or individuals attempting to use the truth in it to their own worldly benefit.

I too get offended by these scare tactics.  I think it is humanity taking the Bible and using it for their own selfish motives, or trying to fight to prove they are right and so on.  The more I study I realize that it is not that simple and black and white.  The translation of the Bible, especially in English, has done a disservice to us by changing eternal places into a simplified "Heaven" and "Hell."  In reality there were other places such as "Hades" and "Sheol."  These places are temporary places for the dead.  Because God has put a sense of fairness and justice into our hearts, would He really just send people to Hell that never had a chance to hear about him for whatever reason?  It makes more sense that He does give them that opportunity at some point.  But many Christians have this desperation and throw out the "You are going to Hell" comments without any love and compassion, which really ticks me off quite honestly.

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September 15, 2013, 08:49:47 PM
 #144

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September 15, 2013, 08:59:28 PM
 #145



My response to this is that knowing God brings joy, peace and comfort to those that have a relationship with HIm.  It is not necessarily about the "ticket to heaven" that accepting Him brings, but hope of more to this life.  There is a sense of meaninglessness and hopelessness that comes with thinking that this life is all that there is. 

Also, let's say that God does give a people a chance to accept Him or reject Him in the afterlife (which I personally believe He does) How many chances will a person get there?  Here on earth we might have more time or opportunities to do so?  I am not sure of course but it is interesting to discuss.

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September 15, 2013, 09:07:50 PM
 #146

There is a sense of meaninglessness and hopelessness that comes with thinking that this life is all that there is. 

You've just convinced me that it is indeed meaningless to discuss...
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September 15, 2013, 10:47:07 PM
 #147

Someone who is atheist is someone who does not understand god.  To find god is to find understanding of what god is, to find peace.

I was atheist until last year when I tripped LSD at the beach.  I realized we are god, the universe is god.  God exists and every form of it.

I nice delusion to complement to your really bad moral.
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September 15, 2013, 11:38:58 PM
 #148

My response to this is that knowing God brings joy, peace and comfort to those that have a relationship with HIm.  It is not necessarily about the "ticket to heaven" that accepting Him brings, but hope of more to this life.  There is a sense of meaninglessness and hopelessness that comes with thinking that this life is all that there is. 

Also, let's say that God does give a people a chance to accept Him or reject Him in the afterlife (which I personally believe He does) How many chances will a person get there?  Here on earth we might have more time or opportunities to do so?  I am not sure of course but it is interesting to discuss.

My biggest problem with the idea of an afterlife is that it's too easy to not only not live one's life while they know they have a life on this Earth, but many of the crazier types love to prophecy the end of times; it seems every other year, there's a new date to when the world should end, and if you believe in an afterlife, this isn't frightening, but to those of us who believe we have just this one life to enjoy, it's the scariest thing.

If, in an afterlife, there was an apparent God, it would be impossible to deny Him; the problem is, we're not there yet, and so we can only say what's most likely.  If there's a God, He has not made Himself apparent; the various Bibles do not count, as they were written by men, and so belief in the Bible is belief that man would not lie, and I don't believe this to be so; how can we reject all mythology for just one?  Of over two-thousand Gods, how do we say only the one we believe in to be true?  Chiefly, as most religion is based on some mythos or another, I don't follow any religion, though I do understand when someone says that "feel" God's presence, which I'm okay with; it's when they claim God is this way or that, that's when it all goes out the window, since nobody can agree what God is like, not even the Bible's old and new testaments can agree, nor can its individual writers.

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September 16, 2013, 12:19:53 AM
 #149

My response to this is that knowing God brings joy, peace and comfort to those that have a relationship with HIm.  It is not necessarily about the "ticket to heaven" that accepting Him brings, but hope of more to this life.  There is a sense of meaninglessness and hopelessness that comes with thinking that this life is all that there is. 

Also, let's say that God does give a people a chance to accept Him or reject Him in the afterlife (which I personally believe He does) How many chances will a person get there?  Here on earth we might have more time or opportunities to do so?  I am not sure of course but it is interesting to discuss.

My biggest problem with the idea of an afterlife is that it's too easy to not only not live one's life while they know they have a life on this Earth, but many of the crazier types love to prophecy the end of times; it seems every other year, there's a new date to when the world should end, and if you believe in an afterlife, this isn't frightening, but to those of us who believe we have just this one life to enjoy, it's the scariest thing.

If, in an afterlife, there was an apparent God, it would be impossible to deny Him; the problem is, we're not there yet, and so we can only say what's most likely.  If there's a God, He has not made Himself apparent; the various Bibles do not count, as they were written by men, and so belief in the Bible is belief that man would not lie, and I don't believe this to be so; how can we reject all mythology for just one?  Of over two-thousand Gods, how do we say only the one we believe in to be true?  Chiefly, as most religion is based on some mythos or another, I don't follow any religion, though I do understand when someone says that "feel" God's presence, which I'm okay with; it's when they claim God is this way or that, that's when it all goes out the window, since nobody can agree what God is like, not even the Bible's old and new testaments can agree, nor can its individual writers.

The Bible is the historical account of God's relationship with man up until right after Jesus came.  I am not sure what you mean by the Old and New Testament not agreeing?

There were strict rules that went into the canonization of the Bible.  Not all works were considered "inspired."  Hence why the Catholic Bible has a couple books not included in some versions, but for the most part all Scripture is "inspired."  There is so much historical evidence that supports the truth of scripture but lately people just casually dismiss it all.  We are to the point where it is not even taught in schools because of fear of the "separation of church and state" but the Bible is filled with History. 

Also, God has made himself apparent to humanity.  He came as a baby so that He could understand us then suffered and died for our sins.  How much more could He have done other than that? 

I do believe that God does reveal Himself to each individual person.  My relationship with Him is different than another persons, but He wants very much to have a relationship with each person.  It depends on each individual's choice to seek Him or not though.

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September 16, 2013, 04:07:35 AM
 #150


Also, God has made himself apparent to humanity.  He came as a baby so that He could understand us then suffered and died for our sins.  How much more could He have done other than that? 
 

Oh come on.  A woman has an affair with another man and ends up pregnant.  Then claims that she hadn't had sex with another man but that "God did it".  Sorry, I just find that story so funny.
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September 16, 2013, 04:17:16 AM
 #151

Why is it risky to reject God and the Bible?  What if the so called "superstitions" are true?  It is risky then because you are rejecting God's offer of eternal life.

What about all the other superstitions?  What about Hindu for example?  How do I know that's not the true one?  They have their "historical accounts" too. 

Shouldn't we be following Hindu traditions as well, just to make sure?  There are around a billion or so people that follow them after all.
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September 16, 2013, 07:31:50 AM
 #152

Boring.

This topic is not about religion but about atheism. Please stay focused.   Wink
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September 16, 2013, 08:55:30 AM
 #153

  Check it out- the reason this message is getting spread is because of unity- we can only live in peace when we are unified. As long as we worship different deities then there is not going to be peace- people worshiping elephant headed gods are going to clash with people worshiping griffons, people worshiping money are going to clash with people worshiping nature, and so on. This is why the commandments were revealed- what was the first commandment- Have no other gods before me- that means only worship the one true Reality, the source of all that exists. What is the second commandment? Don't make any images of creatures on the earth, flying in the sky, or in the sea. Why this commandment? Because people worship images, and then start getting in disputes about whether a guy nailed to a cross is better than a dove, or if the image of St. Bartholomew is cooler than the image of St. Nicholas.

     Jesus, peace be upon him, explains in the new testament that the foundation of all of the laws of the old testament is loving the Creator of everything we have and experience with all of our hearts, all of our souls, and all of our beings, and loving for others what we love for ourselves. Love for the creator comes first, because that is the unified field that connects us all.

   Atheism is a key component in right belief, because it is the denial of falsehood. Anything that attempts to describe the origin of the universe in terms that can be divided is falsehood. These divisions can then be used to sow dissension among people and achieve worldly benefit. The trinity is an example- dividing the Creator into father, son, and holy ghost renders fulfilling the first commandment impossible, because no one can balance their devotion perfectly equally into three parts- the love for one is going to be greater than the love for the other, and this will result in conflict between people favoring the holy spirit, like Pentecostals, or those worshiping the dude on the cross, like Catholics, and so on. This division resulted in the wars of the reformation, and they were pretty rough from what I have heard.

   The trinity was not established as a concept central to Christianity until about 300 years after Jesus, peace be with him, at the council of Nicea, and only because the emperor Constantine wanted a unified doctrine for political reasons as Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire. The theologian, Arius, who was arguing for an indivisible Creator, actually got slapped in the face by one of the trinitarians, St. Nicholas, when the debate got heated. St. Nicholas was the original Santa Claus.

    Anyway, to deny these kinds of intrigues is understandable. But to argue that the universe came from nothing, or that you created it yourself, well... yeah. Different terms for the Creator are just referring to this Source.

   Atheism is ultimately a recipe for conflict, because if each person chooses their personal meaning for their life, it inevitably clashes with the personal meaning of others. Then people end up in parties whose interests are most similar and waging war against other ideological blocs. Hence the first commandment of Moses, peace be upon him. The Bible basically explains how every prophet tried to tell their people to follow monotheism and they constantly ignored them and ended up bringing disaster upon themselves by doing so.

  Monotheism supersedes polytheism because it is encompasses all of the minor deities. It is basically saying every god, idol, and perceptible thing is created and therefore not to be conflated with the Creator. It is saying that by serving only the one Creator, we are in fact serving all that exists, but nothing to the exclusion of anything else.
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September 16, 2013, 09:32:43 AM
 #154

  Check it out- the reason this message is getting spread is because of unity- we can only live in peace when we are unified. As long as we worship different deities then there is not going to be peace- people worshiping elephant headed gods are going to clash with people worshiping griffons, people worshiping money are going to clash with people worshiping nature, and so on. This is why the commandments were revealed- what was the first commandment- Have no other gods before me- that means only worship the one true Reality, the source of all that exists. What is the second commandment? Don't make any images of creatures on the earth, flying in the sky, or in the sea. Why this commandment? Because people worship images, and then start getting in disputes about whether a guy nailed to a cross is better than a dove, or if the image of St. Bartholomew is cooler than the image of St. Nicholas.

     Jesus, peace be upon him, explains in the new testament that the foundation of all of the laws of the old testament is loving the Creator of everything we have and experience with all of our hearts, all of our souls, and all of our beings, and loving for others what we love for ourselves. Love for the creator comes first, because that is the unified field that connects us all.

   Atheism is a key component in right belief, because it is the denial of falsehood. Anything that attempts to describe the origin of the universe in terms that can be divided is falsehood. These divisions can then be used to sow dissension among people and achieve worldly benefit. The trinity is an example- dividing the Creator into father, son, and holy ghost renders fulfilling the first commandment impossible, because no one can balance their devotion perfectly equally into three parts- the love for one is going to be greater than the love for the other, and this will result in conflict between people favoring the holy spirit, like Pentecostals, or those worshiping the dude on the cross, like Catholics, and so on. This division resulted in the wars of the reformation, and they were pretty rough from what I have heard.

   The trinity was not established as a concept central to Christianity until about 300 years after Jesus, peace be with him, at the council of Nicea, and only because the emperor Constantine wanted a unified doctrine for political reasons as Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire. The theologian, Arius, who was arguing for an indivisible Creator, actually got slapped in the face by one of the trinitarians, St. Nicholas, when the debate got heated. St. Nicholas was the original Santa Claus.

    Anyway, to deny these kinds of intrigues is understandable. But to argue that the universe came from nothing, or that you created it yourself, well... yeah. Different terms for the Creator are just referring to this Source.

   Atheism is ultimately a recipe for conflict, because if each person chooses their personal meaning for their life, it inevitably clashes with the personal meaning of others. Then people end up in parties whose interests are most similar and waging war against other ideological blocs. Hence the first commandment of Moses, peace be upon him. The Bible basically explains how every prophet tried to tell their people to follow monotheism and they constantly ignored them and ended up bringing disaster upon themselves by doing so.

  Monotheism supersedes polytheism because it is encompasses all of the minor deities. It is basically saying every god, idol, and perceptible thing is created and therefore not to be conflated with the Creator. It is saying that by serving only the one Creator, we are in fact serving all that exists, but nothing to the exclusion of anything else.

You sir know what you are writing about. Hats off it was a good read. If I am to add something good to read. I would quote a person called Adnan Ibrahim (A muslim scholar) who once said: "It is with doubt you find god". What he meant is if you ever to find god and faith to embrace it is because you really and sincerely are looking for an answer to the questions about our creation and the human condition, and our fate in the afterlife. In this sense actually atheists are closer to god then bornagains, Shieks and priests.

       In my own humble opinion, If god actually existed (Personally I believe he does). It is not fair that someone was born and taught to be a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian, a Buddhist or even an atheist. So I really think god doesn't care about your religion at all. What counts to god is your journey to him. Your true desire for the answer. You disappointed with human behaviours such as greed and envy. And your transcendence upon them into a better person for all of your fellow humans and other creatures. Again, If you are a theist and lack the previously mentioned, I think god loves a true atheist more than you.

Will take me a while to climb up again, But where is a will, there is a way...
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September 16, 2013, 09:41:47 AM
 #155

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September 16, 2013, 09:42:57 AM
 #156

We are all gods/god.

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September 16, 2013, 10:38:03 AM
 #157

Okay, then make the sun come up in the west, please.
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September 16, 2013, 02:43:01 PM
 #158

Okay, then make the sun come up in the west, please.

Hey, can your god do that?
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September 16, 2013, 02:47:01 PM
 #159

We are all gods/god.

Sort of.  Reality:god::thoughts:man.   Reality is the constraint god places upon himself. Thoughts are the constraints we place upon ourselves.  We're essentially isomorphic images of god.
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September 16, 2013, 03:03:30 PM
 #160

We are all gods/god.

Sort of.  Reality:god::thoughts:man.   Reality is the constraint god places upon himself. Thoughts are the constraints we place upon ourselves.  We're essentially isomorphic images of god.

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