The problem with atheism.

[RodeoX]

I don't know why believers think that non-believers do not understand concepts like love, or that they are secretly unhappy. I love people, life, nature. And in fact I'm happier and filled with more love than most people I meet. Atheism is not a lack of morality and joy, rather a lack of belief in a god.
I try to be as kind and truthful as I can, to help those who are less fortunate, and to spread joy while ending suffering. These things are not because of a god. These are basic human feelings that are shared by people of all religions and atheists.
The reason why I don't believe in a god is the same reason I don't believe in Santa Clause. There is not a single shred of evidence for it. Until someone can address that, I can't imagine not being an atheist.

It is not that we do not think the non-believers do not understand love, or are even unhappy.  Quite the contrary.  I believe that many people are wildly happy and do love (often more so than many that call themselves Christians unfortunately)  The problem is the concept of where the "good things in life" or Love even comes from.  And what is love?

Every good and perfect gift comes from God.  God is love.  God created love.  So the problem lies more in the fact that non-believers do not understand where the good things in life comes from and God does not get the credit due for that.  Basically He is behind the scenes giving great blessings and putting love in our hearts and we just ignore Him, say we do not need Him or say He is not relevant or important.  We have this crazy idea that we could exist, or love each other without Him.  How would that even be possible if He IS Love???

You seem together and like a loving person. I don't see you ranting with hateful words. Many of my close friends are like that also and believe in one god or another. I have nothing against religion at all. But I have seen many religions traveling around the world. Met many lovely people with wildly differing beliefs. However no one has ever provided any evidence of their God. That is what is missing for me.

[termhn]

I don't know why believers think that non-believers do not understand concepts like love, or that they are secretly unhappy. I love people, life, nature. And in fact I'm happier and filled with more love than most people I meet. Atheism is not a lack of morality and joy, rather a lack of belief in a god.
I try to be as kind and truthful as I can, to help those who are less fortunate, and to spread joy while ending suffering. These things are not because of a god. These are basic human feelings that are shared by people of all religions and atheists.
The reason why I don't believe in a god is the same reason I don't believe in Santa Clause. There is not a single shred of evidence for it. Until someone can address that, I can't imagine not being an atheist.

Agreed 100%. I think this all the time.

I don't know why believers think that non-believers do not understand concepts like love, or that they are secretly unhappy. I love people, life, nature. And in fact I'm happier and filled with more love than most people I meet. Atheism is not a lack of morality and joy, rather a lack of belief in a god.
I try to be as kind and truthful as I can, to help those who are less fortunate, and to spread joy while ending suffering. These things are not because of a god. These are basic human feelings that are shared by people of all religions and atheists.
The reason why I don't believe in a god is the same reason I don't believe in Santa Clause. There is not a single shred of evidence for it. Until someone can address that, I can't imagine not being an atheist.

It is not that we do not think the non-believers do not understand love, or are even unhappy.  Quite the contrary.  I believe that many people are wildly happy and do love (often more so than many that call themselves Christians unfortunately)  The problem is the concept of where the "good things in life" or Love even comes from.  And what is love?

Every good and perfect gift comes from God.  God is love.  God created love.  So the problem lies more in the fact that non-believers do not understand where the good things in life comes from and God does not get the credit due for that.  Basically He is behind the scenes giving great blessings and putting love in our hearts and we just ignore Him, say we do not need Him or say He is not relevant or important.  We have this crazy idea that we could exist, or love each other without Him.  How would that even be possible if He IS Love???

OK, and if there really is a God and He is giving us these blessings then you are correct. But this is circular reasoning. You should bow down and give credit to something because that something exists, where that something COULD exist without a God? No. The other thing is that there have been so many other religions besides Christianity that all think different things. How can you prove that yours is correct and the Egyptians weren't? Oh right, you can't! And don't quote the Bible or some such thing because that document was created by believers in your religion.

And, if He ISN'T love, then how stupid would that make you look??? You don't seem like an unintelligent or unloving person but being completely stuck in one belief is blinding you to other possibilities of life.

[dank]

God is love!  If we have no love, we are NOTHING!  Love your neighbor as yourself.  That is pretty much the point of the Bible (specifically the New Testament) and people take it WAY off track!  

You are perfectly capable of loving someone without God.   

In fact, if you claim that God is love, an entity you really have no intimate knowledge of, then I would question if you truly know what love is.

I look at humanity and see that we are all equal.  That no-one has rights above anyone else and we should all respect each other's rights and do our best to help and get along with each other in what can be at many times a quite difficult existence.  There's no point in people making each other's lives more difficult.  You reap what you sow in this world.  I've seen that over and over and over again.  That's why I'm of the libertarian/anarchist persuasion and I have no respect for any claimed authority whether it be earthbound or godly.

I'll answer that question.  Love is the purest form of energy, it is the substance of the universe, the foam of consciousness that unites and entangles our world as we know it.  Love, god, consciousness, are all one.

How could you love someone without expressing godlike characteristics of unity, love, compassion etc?  You need god to love because god is a concept of love, and that's all our universe is.

It looks to me you are very close to god in your views, for you believe in equality, nature and karma, both of which equate to god, why not believe in god, everything, the universe together as one being?

Because you DON'T need to believe in god to love someone. You can express characteristics of unity, love, compassion without labeling them as "godlike" either. They are only godlike if there is a god. If there isn't, then they are just good characteristics.

Haven't you heard?  You are conscious, you are god.  We are spiritual beings having a human experience, not humans having a spiritual experience.

Again, everybody, change the word god to the word universe and see if you understand it's meaning.

Everybody believes in god deep down, not everybody consciously understands the concept enough to embrace it.

It's a riddle, really, god exists, for the universe exists, but it's up to you to understand and formulate a belief on god.

[termhn]

God is love!  If we have no love, we are NOTHING!  Love your neighbor as yourself.  That is pretty much the point of the Bible (specifically the New Testament) and people take it WAY off track!  

You are perfectly capable of loving someone without God.   

In fact, if you claim that God is love, an entity you really have no intimate knowledge of, then I would question if you truly know what love is.

I look at humanity and see that we are all equal.  That no-one has rights above anyone else and we should all respect each other's rights and do our best to help and get along with each other in what can be at many times a quite difficult existence.  There's no point in people making each other's lives more difficult.  You reap what you sow in this world.  I've seen that over and over and over again.  That's why I'm of the libertarian/anarchist persuasion and I have no respect for any claimed authority whether it be earthbound or godly.

I'll answer that question.  Love is the purest form of energy, it is the substance of the universe, the foam of consciousness that unites and entangles our world as we know it.  Love, god, consciousness, are all one.

How could you love someone without expressing godlike characteristics of unity, love, compassion etc?  You need god to love because god is a concept of love, and that's all our universe is.

It looks to me you are very close to god in your views, for you believe in equality, nature and karma, both of which equate to god, why not believe in god, everything, the universe together as one being?

Because you DON'T need to believe in god to love someone. You can express characteristics of unity, love, compassion without labeling them as "godlike" either. They are only godlike if there is a god. If there isn't, then they are just good characteristics.

Haven't you heard?  You are conscious, you are god.  We are spiritual beings having a human experience, not humans having a spiritual experience.

Again, everybody, change the word god to the word universe and see if you understand it's meaning.

Everybody believes in god deep down, not everybody consciously understands the concept enough to embrace it.

It's a riddle, really, god exists, for the universe exists, but it's up to you to understand and formulate a belief on god.

OK well then you're inventing some new religion that is not Christianity. In Christianity, God is a BEING. He has direct contact with some humans. He is able to create something out of nothing. The purposely created everything just how it is. What you are proposing is that the natural laws of the universe ARE God (unless I am misinterpreting what you're trying to say), in which case there is no point in having a God, you can just say that you believe in the universe as we observe and live in it.

[Vod]

Pride is what keeps people from a relationship with God.  It makes people think things like, "There is no God.  I don't need God.  I have the power in me.  I am fine without God" and so on.

INTELLIGENCE is what keeps people from a relationship with a fairy tale. 

Tell me bitchick, are you too proud to believe in the hundreds of other gods that people believe in?

[dank]

God is love!  If we have no love, we are NOTHING!  Love your neighbor as yourself.  That is pretty much the point of the Bible (specifically the New Testament) and people take it WAY off track!  

You are perfectly capable of loving someone without God.   

In fact, if you claim that God is love, an entity you really have no intimate knowledge of, then I would question if you truly know what love is.

I look at humanity and see that we are all equal.  That no-one has rights above anyone else and we should all respect each other's rights and do our best to help and get along with each other in what can be at many times a quite difficult existence.  There's no point in people making each other's lives more difficult.  You reap what you sow in this world.  I've seen that over and over and over again.  That's why I'm of the libertarian/anarchist persuasion and I have no respect for any claimed authority whether it be earthbound or godly.

I'll answer that question.  Love is the purest form of energy, it is the substance of the universe, the foam of consciousness that unites and entangles our world as we know it.  Love, god, consciousness, are all one.

How could you love someone without expressing godlike characteristics of unity, love, compassion etc?  You need god to love because god is a concept of love, and that's all our universe is.

It looks to me you are very close to god in your views, for you believe in equality, nature and karma, both of which equate to god, why not believe in god, everything, the universe together as one being?

Because you DON'T need to believe in god to love someone. You can express characteristics of unity, love, compassion without labeling them as "godlike" either. They are only godlike if there is a god. If there isn't, then they are just good characteristics.

Haven't you heard?  You are conscious, you are god.  We are spiritual beings having a human experience, not humans having a spiritual experience.

Again, everybody, change the word god to the word universe and see if you understand it's meaning.

Everybody believes in god deep down, not everybody consciously understands the concept enough to embrace it.

It's a riddle, really, god exists, for the universe exists, but it's up to you to understand and formulate a belief on god.

OK well then you're inventing some new religion that is not Christianity. In Christianity, God is a BEING. He has direct contact with some humans. He is able to create something out of nothing. The purposely created everything just how it is. What you are proposing is that the natural laws of the universe ARE God (unless I am misinterpreting what you're trying to say), in which case there is no point in having a God, you can just say that you believe in the universe as we observe and live in it.

No new religion, just spirituality.  God can be manifested as a being but there is no singular being god looks like.  It is subject to perspective.  You and I are both gods, I have talked to god via thought when it appeared to me.

Think of life as a very detailed tv screen, god is the tv that encompasses everything, it tunes it's frequency to a specific channel and creates an image.

Yes, most religions are not completely accurate, which is destined to happen when a story is passed down thousands of years.  The core of any religion, spirituality, is still true.  Religions serve a good purpose in helping people understand god, though taking a route absent of religion via meditation and transcending beyond the physical planes, I have developed a better understanding of god than if one were to read the words of someone else.

Exploring your consciousness and discovering the answers for yourself is the best way you can find faith, understanding, peace and believe in god.

[hawkeye]

How could you love someone without expressing godlike characteristics of unity, love, compassion etc?  You need god to love because god is a concept of love, and that's all our universe is.

It looks to me you are very close to god in your views, for you believe in equality, nature and karma, both of which equate to god, why not believe in god, everything, the universe together as one being?

The universe is not love.  The universe is simply a machine with many cogs making it go round.   Or it could be a matrix-like computer program.  Who knows?

I don't love the vast majority of people.  Nor do I love the universe.   Some people I like, some I don't, a select few I love.  Everyone gets at least one chance with me but if they prove that they are not capable of treating others the way they want to be treated then I don't have much time for them.

[hawkeye]

And, if He ISN'T love, then how stupid would that make you look??? You don't seem like an unintelligent or unloving person but being completely stuck in one belief is blinding you to other possibilities of life.

Right.  An all-powerful being could make you think whatever they want you to think.  There is no way for believers to know that there God is truly good.

In fact, when you look at the world, you would have to say that the creator of it (if there was one) must be evil. 

I know there's the whole "the devil controls Earth" or whatever.  But if that's the case and God is more powerful than the devil and loves his creations, why doesn't he do something about it?

An all-powerful being could have created a paradise but instead chose to create a world with limited resources ensuring wars with devastating loss of life and a condition of poverty for most humans throughout most of history.  Doesn't seem much like the definition of love to me.

[ronimacarroni]

Pride is what keeps people from a relationship with God.  It makes people think things like, "There is no God.  I don't need God.  I have the power in me.  I am fine without God" and so on.

INTELLIGENCE is what keeps people from a relationship with a fairy tale. 

Tell me bitchick, are you too proud to believe in the hundreds of other gods that people believe in?

I believe there are thousands of "gods" who are lower in the hierarchy.
We call them angels.

[termhn]

Pride is what keeps people from a relationship with God.  It makes people think things like, "There is no God.  I don't need God.  I have the power in me.  I am fine without God" and so on.

INTELLIGENCE is what keeps people from a relationship with a fairy tale. 

Tell me bitchick, are you too proud to believe in the hundreds of other gods that people believe in?

I believe there are thousands of "gods" who are lower in the hierarchy.
We call them angels.

That's not what the people who believe in those religions think, though. You can't just brush it off by saying "I believe this ____" that fits in with your religion, you have to accept that there are other possibilities and lots of people who believe in those possibilities too.

[dank]

And, if He ISN'T love, then how stupid would that make you look??? You don't seem like an unintelligent or unloving person but being completely stuck in one belief is blinding you to other possibilities of life.

Right.  An all-powerful being could make you think whatever they want you to think.  There is no way for believers to know that there God is truly good.

In fact, when you look at the world, you would have to say that the creator of it (if there was one) must be evil. 

I know there's the whole "the devil controls Earth" or whatever.  But if that's the case and God is more powerful than the devil and loves his creations, why doesn't he do something about it?

An all-powerful being could have created a paradise but instead chose to create a world with limited resources ensuring wars with devastating loss of life and a condition of poverty for most humans throughout most of history.  Doesn't seem much like the definition of love to me.

Don't you see?  We are the gods that create such a catastrophic world.  It's up to us to evolve on a spiritual level and create heaven on earth, which is destined to happen shortly.

We each create our own universe.

You should try loving everybody, for everybody is you, feels good man.

[BitChick]

I don't know why believers think that non-believers do not understand concepts like love, or that they are secretly unhappy. I love people, life, nature. And in fact I'm happier and filled with more love than most people I meet. Atheism is not a lack of morality and joy, rather a lack of belief in a god.
I try to be as kind and truthful as I can, to help those who are less fortunate, and to spread joy while ending suffering. These things are not because of a god. These are basic human feelings that are shared by people of all religions and atheists.
The reason why I don't believe in a god is the same reason I don't believe in Santa Clause. There is not a single shred of evidence for it. Until someone can address that, I can't imagine not being an atheist.

It is not that we do not think the non-believers do not understand love, or are even unhappy.  Quite the contrary.  I believe that many people are wildly happy and do love (often more so than many that call themselves Christians unfortunately)  The problem is the concept of where the "good things in life" or Love even comes from.  And what is love?

Every good and perfect gift comes from God.  God is love.  God created love.  So the problem lies more in the fact that non-believers do not understand where the good things in life comes from and God does not get the credit due for that.  Basically He is behind the scenes giving great blessings and putting love in our hearts and we just ignore Him, say we do not need Him or say He is not relevant or important.  We have this crazy idea that we could exist, or love each other without Him.  How would that even be possible if He IS Love???

You seem together and like a loving person. I don't see you ranting with hateful words. Many of my close friends are like that also and believe in one god or another. I have nothing against religion at all. But I have seen many religions traveling around the world. Met many lovely people with wildly differing beliefs. However no one has ever provided any evidence of their God. That is what is missing for me.

Thanks.  To be hateful would go entirely against what I should be as a Christian so I take that as a compliment.

It gets complicated to be a Christian sometimes.  Because I believe so strongly that the Bible is true I am seen as totally narrow minded by many people.  But because I believe the Bible to be true to my core I cannot rewrite the Bible and make it say whatever I want it too.  Then I would not be a true Christian.  In fact, I see many people that claim to be that pick and choose what they want to believe out of the Bible.  In a way they are just creating their own "god".  

As for providing evidence.  I could go a few different directions with that.  There is a book called "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Christ-Journalists-Investigation/dp/0310209307 where a well known reporter approached searching for evidence for proof that Jesus was really who he said he was.  He did not believe it and wanted to prove once and for all that Jesus was just a big scam but came to realize that there was evidence out there that was undeniable.  That said, even with "evidence" it takes someone with a willingness to accept that evidence as truth or as some call it "faith."

Also, one thing that resonates with me for the evidence of God is the complexity of the human body.  Even the complexity of a single cell in our bodies should make us wonder at how would that ever just happen by chance.  As intelligent as humans are we cannot even understand everything about how our bodies work.  Isn't that enough to make us think that there is something greater out there?  I would think that it would cause someone to at least believe in Intelligent Design.  If we were walking along the beach and saw a glass bottle with the coke logo on it would we think "Wow, what a strange sand formation?"  Of course not.  It obviously was created by someone.  How much more complex are humans?  We were obviously intricately designed.

As for all of the different paths or "gods" the Bible is pretty narrow in that it says, "There is one way to the Father, through Jesus Christ."  This is not popular for sure.  I think the thing that is eye opening for me is that all of the other religions require people to do works to earn their way to a "higher place" "nirvana" or the afterlife they believe in.  Christianity is the only religion where one realizes that there is nothing that we can do in ourselves.  It is not about "earning" or being "good."  It is about understanding we will never be good enough and we need a savior and our salvation is a free gift.  So Christianity is different then all religions in that.

I had a long conversation with a Hindu I met at the beach once.  He argued with me that all paths were valid.  I said that if all paths were valid and Christianity said that there was only one way to the Father and it was through accepting Jesus, then the most logical choice would be to become a Christian so that your salvation would be guaranteed.  He smiled and said, "You are beginning to persuade me."  I am not sure what he did decide to do because I have not seen him since.  

But all of this is just words on a page.  True faith is about letting go of our pride and actually praying to God and asking Him for help.  Simple yet profound and it seems so few want to do that.  The sad thing is even I, as a Christian, find myself struggling to "let go and let God" have His way at times too.  It is a journey for sure.

[Vod]

So when will you let go of your pride and accept the other couple hundred gods into your life?

Or is everyone else wrong?

[dank]

One god, one universe, infinite points of god, infinite children of god.

One can believe in a couple hundred gods, but that doesn't make those gods THE god.  Do you see what I'm saying?  God is everything, as are we.

THE god (all consciousness) exists beyond physical manifestation and is a singular point of the purest form of energy, love.

[the joint]

God is love!  If we have no love, we are NOTHING!  Love your neighbor as yourself.  That is pretty much the point of the Bible (specifically the New Testament) and people take it WAY off track!  

You are perfectly capable of loving someone without God.   

In fact, if you claim that God is love, an entity you really have no intimate knowledge of, then I would question if you truly know what love is.

I look at humanity and see that we are all equal.  That no-one has rights above anyone else and we should all respect each other's rights and do our best to help and get along with each other in what can be at many times a quite difficult existence.  There's no point in people making each other's lives more difficult.  You reap what you sow in this world.  I've seen that over and over and over again.  That's why I'm of the libertarian/anarchist persuasion and I have no respect for any claimed authority whether it be earthbound or godly.

I'll answer that question.  Love is the purest form of energy, it is the substance of the universe, the foam of consciousness that unites and entangles our world as we know it.  Love, god, consciousness, are all one.

How could you love someone without expressing godlike characteristics of unity, love, compassion etc?  You need god to love because god is a concept of love, and that's all our universe is.

It looks to me you are very close to god in your views, for you believe in equality, nature and karma, both of which equate to god, why not believe in god, everything, the universe together as one being?

Because you DON'T need to believe in god to love someone. You can express characteristics of unity, love, compassion without labeling them as "godlike" either. They are only godlike if there is a god. If there isn't, then they are just good characteristics.

Haven't you heard?  You are conscious, you are god.  We are spiritual beings having a human experience, not humans having a spiritual experience.

Again, everybody, change the word god to the word universe and see if you understand it's meaning.

Everybody believes in god deep down, not everybody consciously understands the concept enough to embrace it.

It's a riddle, really, god exists, for the universe exists, but it's up to you to understand and formulate a belief on god.

OK well then you're inventing some new religion that is not Christianity. In Christianity, God is a BEING. He has direct contact with some humans. He is able to create something out of nothing. The purposely created everything just how it is. What you are proposing is that the natural laws of the universe ARE God (unless I am misinterpreting what you're trying to say), in which case there is no point in having a God, you can just say that you believe in the universe as we observe and live in it.

God states in the Bible, "I am who am."  That does not imply that he is a being, but rather that he is being, period.

And, an omnipotent god would, logically, be able to place his own constraints upon himself, e.g. manifesting as a human.

[Rassah]

funny we're arguing about this crap, while living on a tiny spec of dust in an enormous universe that doesn't know or care about anything we do.

[the joint]

funny we're arguing about this crap, while living on a tiny spec of dust in an enormous universe that doesn't know or care about anything we do.

Meaning is embedded into the structural syntax of the universe, and necessarily so.  Information catalyzes meaning.  Without meaning, information is useless, chaotic, and impossible to decipher or communicate. 
Without meaning, you wouldn't be able to empirically study anything.

To say the Universe is meaningless is akin to saying that language is meaningless (reality is, by definition, a language).  But, that would be ridiculous because language predicates meaning.

Basically, if you think the Universe is meaningless, then please explain how information is conveyable.

[termhn]

funny we're arguing about this crap, while living on a tiny spec of dust in an enormous universe that doesn't know or care about anything we do.

Meaning is embedded into the structural syntax of the universe, and necessarily so.  Information catalyzes meaning.  Without meaning, information is useless, chaotic, and impossible to decipher or communicate. 
Without meaning, you wouldn't be able to empirically study anything.

To say the Universe is meaningless is akin to saying that language is meaningless (reality is, by definition, a language).  But, that would be ridiculous because language predicates meaning.

Basically, if you think the Universe is meaningless, then please explain how information is conveyable.

The universe is pointless. There's no reason for our existence here other than some chemical reactions and random chance that our planet is the exact distance from the right size star, and it's the correct size, etc. There's meaning that we put into it. We are intelligent enough to provide meaning to things. We can try to convince ourselves that there's a reason for our existence, or the universe's existence for that matter, but it doesn't mean that it has to be true. We CREATED language. We PUT meaning into it. Just like if someone says something to you in another language that you don't understand, that has no meaning to you besides the tone of voice and body language of that person. We learn to put meaning to things that already exist or things that we create.

[BitChick]

funny we're arguing about this crap, while living on a tiny spec of dust in an enormous universe that doesn't know or care about anything we do.

At least you are humble enough to see that in reality we are "nothing."    That is better than some.

I guess where I argue (even if you think it is pointless) is that God does care about us.  So much more than we even know or realize. 

From our previous discussions on other boards I know where you are coming from though Rassah. I will give you credit that you have good reasons to doubt having seen first hand tremendous suffering of people around you without feeling like God did anything about it.  I get that and I don't understand everything either and I agree that it is easy to feel like God just lets us be His pawns in this game of life as He sits back and just observes.  But having seen Him intervene and felt His comfort in difficult times in my life I have come to realize that even when it does not feel like God is there and when it feels like He doesn't care, He does care so much more than I know or even can understand.  Since God is no respecter of persons, His love for you or anyone else is no different than me.  I am not "special."  Perhaps I just have a softer heart or a willing heart to come to Him for help.  That is the only difference.  But I will say that God's plans or the things He allows me to go through are not always pleasant for sure.  It is really easy to doubt.  But I have learned through the years that He works all things out for the good of those that are called according to His purpose and I have learned to just wait and see what "good" can come from all the crap I have gone through.

[Rassah]

funny we're arguing about this crap, while living on a tiny spec of dust in an enormous universe that doesn't know or care about anything we do.

Meaning is embedded into the structural syntax of the universe, and necessarily so.  Information catalyzes meaning.  Without meaning, information is useless, chaotic, and impossible to decipher or communicate. 
Without meaning, you wouldn't be able to empirically study anything.

To say the Universe is meaningless is akin to saying that language is meaningless (reality is, by definition, a language).  But, that would be ridiculous because language predicates meaning.

Basically, if you think the Universe is meaningless, then please explain how information is conveyable.

Not meaningless, insignifiicant. In the same way that guessing a private key to a Bitcoin address has a chance that is so insignificant that it's almost meaningless. It has a chance, just like our communication has meaning, but it exists in such a vaste space of probabilities that it might as well be meaningless.