The problem with atheism.

[hawkeye]

1) la manzana = apple
2) apple exists
Therefore, la manzana exists.

Would you refute premise 1 here?

Now you've changed the nature of your equation.   You are using two well defined labels that have certain properties and equating them to each other here.

In the previous example you said god = absolute truth.   Previously you have ascribed ominiscient powers to God, but never proved that absolute truth has omniscient powers.

"Omniscient powers" have nothing to do with the argument, and the argument doesn't require me proving that absolute truth "has omniscient powers."  You're overthinking this.  Why do you have such a problem with me calling something 'god' instead of 'absolute truth' when I set them to be equal?  Whatever label you want to tack onto it, there still remains the burden of defining the concept.

By the way, what do you think the "apple" quality is that gives an apple it's appleness?  What property is that?  I'm specifically referring to something unique to apples and not to, for example, all fruits in general.

You are using logic to try and prove the existence of God but I'm proving you don't know how logic works.  For two things to be equivalent they must have the same identical properties.  That's what you must prove.  If you are just putting the God label on truth then you can do that, but that is not the commonly understood definition of God.  Just look it up in a dictionary if you don't believe me.  And using your own labels is not how language works.  Because if we all used our own labels for everything communication would be almost impossible. 

Either you accept common definitions for God and truth or you are just trying to redefine terms to suit your indoctrinated belief.

[hawkeye]

Atheism makes no sense. If you want to call yourself an atheist because you don't believe there's a god, that's fine. But to try to claim that there can't be a god is just utterly insane.

In order of logic, from sane to insane:
Agnosticism: "There might be a moose in these woods."
Theism: "There is a moose in these woods, but I have no evidence."
Atheism: "There can't possibly, under any circumstance or at any point in time, be a moose in these woods, but I have no proof."

Sorry, that's not how I look at it, and not how I believe the definition applies. It should be:

Agnosticism: "There might be a moose in these woods."
Theism: "There is a moose in these woods, but I have no evidence."
Atheism: "There is no evidence that there is a moose in the woods, or that there ever was a moose in the woods, and thus the idea of a moose in the woods is simply irrelevant and shouldn't even be taken into consideration."

Clearly the atheist position is the most logical one, as the agnostic one would have to take into consideration every single creature that may or may not exist, or every single god or deity that was ever invented, to stay agnostic. Do you consider that every good w ever thought of might exist? And how does that affect your life?

I like these better

Agnosticism: "There might be a monster in Loch Ness."
Theism: "There is a monster in Loch Ness and I know some people who have personally experienced it but I have no evidence."
Atheism: "There is no evidence that there is a monster in Loch Ness, or that there ever was a monster in Loch Ness, and thus the idea of a monster in Loch Ness is simply irrelevant and shouldn't even be taken into consideration.  Knowing what we know the idea is ridiculous and contradictory.  It's basically just an old myth."

The atheist position in these examples seems to be based on a logical fallacy: that absence of evidence implies evidence of absence. That's just wrong and unscientific. For scientists to be true-to-form (or atheists claiming a scientific basis for their beliefs), they basically can't be atheists. Positive evidence can always be disputed and rejected and so on, but pretty much the only things they can do with an absence of evidence is:
1) look for it
2) wait until somebody else finds some

Of course there's also a 3rd option:
3) ignore the issue
but then they're not doing any science and there's no science backing their views either.

Both the agnostic and theistic views are more logical. E.g., for theists: their beliefs have a basis, i.e. personal experience, and they correctly label their belief as a belief. Similarly for agnostics: lack of evidence does not imply anything, it's just a lack of evidence and there's nothing to suggest that some new knowledge won't emerge in a future.

For the most part I don't believe in the 'stories', although some of them are likely based on historical events (e.g.: floods happen all the time, massive climatic events also happen occasionally). However, I'm sure I've mentioned Qualia a couple of times already in this thread -- real, observable phenomena that 21st century science still can't explain. Everybody (those without disabilities) sees colours or hears sounds but what the hell is this process? I'm not talking about mechanical/electrical/chemical series of events tickling the brain-machine, I'm talking about the conscious mind that bears witness to it all.


To throw a spanner in the works and directly question epiphenomenal views of the world, if free will doesn't exist, then surely consciousness would never have evolved in the first place? (If it somehow evolved). To quickly elaborate on what I mean: if free will doesn't exist, then the conscious mind basically can't do anything anyway. It would be a helpless prisoner inside someone's body, sensing everything that they do, but being unable to exert any influence over that motion-picture experience. I've heard theories that an illusion of free will somehow evolved to combat the problem of "the feeling of helplessly observing the world from someone's body"... but come on, invoking evolution to fix a problem that needn't exist in the first place? That's why they call it the HARD problem of consciousness, i.e.: it's not easy.

There's no scientists looking for unicorns either.  And no science looking for a teacup floating around the planet.  Atheists accept that there is a possibility of God.  Just like there is a possibility of bigfoot.  Or a unicorn.  We haven't searched every square inch of the planet.  However, knowing what we do know these likelihoods are very small.  So when people make claims they've seen a bigfoot or a loch ness monster for example and no-one manages to get a decent picture of it, then you dismiss their claims.  Get some evidence then we'll talk.  Until then stories are just stories.

God claims make no sense because how do believers reconcile all the other Gods currently believed in now and throughout history?  They can't all be right.  And none have any evidence.  All the atheist does, like with the loch ness monster, is say, it's extremely unlikely.  So much so that until you give me some evidence I'm not going to believe it.   Just like someone who tells me they can fly without any aids but won't demonstrate it, I'll choose not to believe them.  Hey, maybe they can, who knows.  But the idea is ridiculous, and they won't show evidence.  If they won't show evidence I'm just going to assume they never had any.  Which is true of Christians.  Not one of them ever had any evidence but they were brought up and indoctrinated and that's why they believe.  And some of them claim some mystical personal experience.  Well, there's a lot of people claiming they've had a personal experience with aliens too.

The only reason god believers aren't treated the same way as loch ness monster believers is because there are so many of them.  The beliefs are of the exact same nature though.

[Rassah]

I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.

Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?

[Rassah]

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9  He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Hmm. This just reaffirms my belief that the Christian god is a vain and prideful asshole. Who the hell tortures people for eternity just because they don't give them attention or worship him?

[BitChick]

I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.

Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?

There are mutations in the world for sure, but I wholeheartedly agree (as you probably know about me anyways that the world was perfectly created in the beginning.

From this article: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cfl/mutations

gratifyingly, Denton seems to look beyond the merely negative insufficiency of chance to glimpse a solution to “The Puzzle of Perfection,” as he calls it, in the “design hypothesis”:


It is the sheer universality of perfection, the fact that everywhere we look, we find an elegance and ingenuity of an absolutely transcending quality, which so mitigates against the idea of chance. … In practically every field of fundamental biological research ever-increasing levels of design and complexity are being revealed at an ever-accelerating rate. The credibility of natural selection is weakened, therefore, not only by the perfection we have already glimpsed but by the expectation of further as yet undreampt [sic] of depths of ingenuity and complexity (p. 342).

[Rassah]

The atheist position in these examples seems to be based on a logical fallacy: that absence of evidence implies evidence of absence.

That's not a logical fallacy, and is in fact exactly scientific. The fallacy you are thinking of is "It's true, because it has not yet been proven false," which is the exact opposite of what you have said. In science everything is considered false until proven true. In religion, everything is true until proven false (an impossibility, and thus a fallacy).

[BitChick]

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9  He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Hmm. This just reaffirms my belief that the Christian god is a vain and prideful asshole. Who the hell tortures people for eternity just because they don't give them attention or worship him?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

That gift is for everyone.  He wills that EVERYONE comes to repentance.  He is no respecter of persons.  He loves us so much He gave his Son for us.  What more could He have possibly done?

But we have a choice to accept His gift or not.  You can look at him as prideful and vain but I look at Him as a loving Father that is to be respected but still loves us and wants what is best for us.

Come on Rassah.  We have had this discussion before.  I know how frustrated you are with the concept of a God that would send anyone at all to Hell for any reason.  But is it fair that no one gets punished for the evil they commit on earth?  Should people be allowed to get away with anything and everything?  There is a price to be paid for sins.  We have all committed them.  The only ones that will be cleared of them are the ones that accept the blood of God's son as a ransom for those sins.

[Biomech]

Two guys died and this is what happened in the afterlife. But who witnessed all this?
Sorry, but it just looks like a children's story. You can't quote a source to prove the source. By that measure all fiction is fact.
Harry Potter is a real warlock because on page 233 it says "I am Harry Potter and I'm a real warlock". Is that proof?

Who witnessed this?  This is a parable that Jesus told.  If He is God in the flesh it would not be hard for Him to know the story.

But as for the Bible being proof, therein lies the dilemma.  If the Bible is not true then you are right.  There is no need to worry.  Eat drink and be merry should be the goal of life.  On the other hand, if the Bible is true then what?  It should be a bit disconcerting and cause someone to at least study the Bible carefully to make sure they are right. Most people who discredit the Bible have never even read it.  As for the Bible just being any other book, millions of people believe it to be true to the core of their being.  People die for their faith in Jesus that they have found by reading the Bible.  Are we all crazy or is there something more to this book that has been cherished for so many?  No one would die for Harry Potter so that book cannot compare.  You could debate that other religious books are as valid but the Bible stands apart.  It is the only book that says that there is no way we can earn salvation by our own merit.  It is a free gift from God.  Other "gods" or paths are all about working or earning our way to heaven somehow.

 

I have to take severe exception to this. I have been an atheist for some time now, and reading, then extrapolating, studying, searching and HOPING it was true (because I had wasted half my life believing). I actually encourage everyone who call themselves Christian to read the bible, straight through, and see if they still believe. I can't recall who said it, but a rather prominent atheist once said that the bible is the best argument for atheism that exists. I don't agree with that, as there are far more logical reasons to disbelieve in deities, but it's still been my experience that the VAST MAJORITY of atheists whom I have interacted with (and it's been rather a lot) are far better versed in the bible than the majority of Christians. The main exceptions I have seen to this are people from nations or places where Christianity holds little sway. Even there, they seem to be more knowledgeable than most Christians.

My take is simple, though not simply arrived at. If there is a god, and it wants to be worshiped, and it is omnipotent, (all Christian claims, here) Then it would have the power AND MOTIVATION to make this obvious. We would not need a collection of old books voted upon by political committees in order to validate the existence and will of such a being. Thus, if there is a god, based on the observations of the world and visible universe around us, I have to say that it doesn't want to be worshiped. The more likely solution is that it simply doesn't exist, but the jury is out on that.

I could go to great lengths in exposing the multiple mistakes and fallacies contained within the Christian bible and it's derivatives, but at this time I don't see the point. It's all well documented, and there is no swaying a "true believer" with facts. A thing I have come to realize after a great deal of personal pain. For psychological reasons, it is very difficult to relinquish belief, even when it has been proven to be false. It was for me. Losing my religion was personally devastating until I figured out who I really am, and managed to initiate a new paradigm. I'm a pretty tough person, so if it was that hard for me, I can understand why people cling to it. But that doesn't make it correct.

[Biomech]

The atheist position in these examples seems to be based on a logical fallacy: that absence of evidence implies evidence of absence.

That's not a logical fallacy, and is in fact exactly scientific. The fallacy you are thinking of is "It's true, because it has not yet been proven false," which is the exact opposite of what you have said. In science everything is considered false until proven true. In religion, everything is true until proven false (an impossibility, and thus a fallacy).

Rassah, it is rare that I disagree with you, so don't take it personally. Science doesn't work by proving things true, it works by lack of disproof. The idea of the scientific method is to test a hypothesis to destruction. If it can't be destroyed, it becomes part of the theory. It is always open, no matter how well "established", to new data and further attempts at disproof.

However, absence of evidence does imply evidence of absence. It just doesn't prove it. Which is why the common Christian comeback has no good answer, as they are asking us to prove or disprove a negative. Which IS a logical fallacy

[Rassah]

I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.

Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?

There are mutations in the world for sure, but I wholeheartedly agree (as you probably know about me anyways that the world was perfectly created in the beginning.

Not just mutations. Diseases, viruses, cancers, extreme inefficiencies in our biology, extreme fragility in our environment, tons of vestigial organs and completely useless body parts in many animals including us... If there was someone intelligent creating all life on earth, why was he so horribly bad at it?

[Biomech]

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9  He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Hmm. This just reaffirms my belief that the Christian god is a vain and prideful asshole. Who the hell tortures people for eternity just because they don't give them attention or worship him?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

That gift is for everyone.  He wills that EVERYONE comes to repentance.  He is no respecter of persons.  He loves us so much He gave his Son for us.  What more could He have possibly done?

But we have a choice to accept His gift or not.  You can look at him as prideful and vain but I look at Him as a loving Father that is to be respected but still loves us and wants what is best for us.

Come on Rassah.  We have had this discussion before.  I know how frustrated you are with the concept of a God that would send anyone at all to Hell for any reason.  But is it fair that no one gets punished for the evil they commit on earth?  Should people be allowed to get away with anything and everything?  There is a price to be paid for sins.  We have all committed them.  The only ones that will be cleared of them are the ones that accept the blood of God's son as a ransom for those sins.

Dammit, you had to go there. Therein lies the crux of the matter. Pun intended. God, who won't or can't show itself, creates an avatar and has it destroyed, briefly, so that "we" are all "saved" from "sin". Convenient, eh?

Try that in life. Kill somebody, then blame it all on them. You will hang. Further, all of the "justifications" in the world do not forgive the very IDEA that a being that is mortal deserves ETERNAL damnation, regardless of what they may have done to other mortals. Also, as an anarchist, I'm in favor of compensatory justice, not punitive. Punishment only works to CORRECT a behaviour. Punishment that never ends is evidence of sadism, and nothing else.

[BitChick]

I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.

Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?

There are mutations in the world for sure, but I wholeheartedly agree (as you probably know about me anyways that the world was perfectly created in the beginning.

Not just mutations. Diseases, viruses, cancers, extreme inefficiencies in our biology, extreme fragility in our environment, tons of vestigial organs and completely useless body parts in many animals including us... If there was someone intelligent creating all life on earth, why was he so horribly bad at it?

What if everything was perfect until sin entered the world?  Sin is pretty much the problem with this world Rassah.  It would be an awesome place if it weren't for that.  Why does God get the blame for sin?  

[Rassah]

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9  He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Hmm. This just reaffirms my belief that the Christian god is a vain and prideful asshole. Who the hell tortures people for eternity just because they don't give them attention or worship him?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

That gift is for everyone.  He wills that EVERYONE comes to repentance.  He is no respecter of persons.  He loves us so much He gave his Son for us.  What more could He have possibly done?

How about agree not to torture for all eternity anyone who has either never heard of him, or doesn't think just stories without evidence is enough to believe in him?

Come on Rassah.  We have had this discussion before.  I know how frustrated you are with the concept of a God that would send anyone at all to Hell for any reason.  But is it fair that no one gets punished for the evil they commit on earth?  Should people be allowed to get away with anything and everything?  There is a price to be paid for sins.  We have all committed them.  The only ones that will be cleared of them are the ones that accept the blood of God's son as a ransom for those sins.

That frankly sounds sick. Who in their right mind accepts human sacrifice of someone's son in exchange for the bad things they have done? I would rather people pay for their own sins personally. Also, not for all eternity {which is a really long time). And also not for random acts that someone just decides are sin. Not believing in something because there is no evidence for it is not evil, in my view.

BTW, I'm sure I've mentioned it, but if I haven't, I've read the bible all the way through, first when I was about 5, and then a few times again since then. I only really studied it, instead of reading it like a fairy tale, when I started to question it much later.

[Biomech]

I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.

Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?

There are mutations in the world for sure, but I wholeheartedly agree (as you probably know about me anyways that the world was perfectly created in the beginning.

Not just mutations. Diseases, viruses, cancers, extreme inefficiencies in our biology, extreme fragility in our environment, tons of vestigial organs and completely useless body parts in many animals including us... If there was someone intelligent creating all life on earth, why was he so horribly bad at it?

What if everything was perfect until sin entered the world?  Sin is pretty much the problem with this world Rassah.  It would be an awesome place if it weren't for that.  Why does God get the blame for sin?  

So, what, because Eve decided knowledge was a good idea, all the animals who were "named" a bit earlier divided themselves into predator and prey, virii were introduced, germs started to exist, plants altered their functions to defend or aggress... all because ONE woman had the audacity to learn something?\

Please. You Christians really need to learn something of the physical world before putting your "gospel" in front of even moderately educated people. This is not the dark ages, or even the fifties. This is the age of the internet. The "forbidden fruit" is at EVERYONE's fingertips. Learn new tricks, or your religion will fade into the dustbin of history like the thousands before it.

[BitChick]

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9  He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Hmm. This just reaffirms my belief that the Christian god is a vain and prideful asshole. Who the hell tortures people for eternity just because they don't give them attention or worship him?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

That gift is for everyone.  He wills that EVERYONE comes to repentance.  He is no respecter of persons.  He loves us so much He gave his Son for us.  What more could He have possibly done?

But we have a choice to accept His gift or not.  You can look at him as prideful and vain but I look at Him as a loving Father that is to be respected but still loves us and wants what is best for us.

Come on Rassah.  We have had this discussion before.  I know how frustrated you are with the concept of a God that would send anyone at all to Hell for any reason.  But is it fair that no one gets punished for the evil they commit on earth?  Should people be allowed to get away with anything and everything?  There is a price to be paid for sins.  We have all committed them.  The only ones that will be cleared of them are the ones that accept the blood of God's son as a ransom for those sins.

Dammit, you had to go there. Therein lies the crux of the matter. Pun intended. God, who won't or can't show itself, creates an avatar and has it destroyed, briefly, so that "we" are all "saved" from "sin". Convenient, eh?

Try that in life. Kill somebody, then blame it all on them. You will hang. Further, all of the "justifications" in the world do not forgive the very IDEA that a being that is mortal deserves ETERNAL damnation, regardless of what they may have done to other mortals. Also, as an anarchist, I'm in favor of compensatory justice, not punitive. Punishment only works to CORRECT a behaviour. Punishment that never ends is evidence of sadism, and nothing else.

You act like I enjoy the fact that God is punishing people for eternity.  Well, there may have been a few people in my life where I was hopeful for that, but even in those cases God has helped me overcome my hate and pray for them instead of hating them (something only God can do BTW).

My point was that God loves us all.  He wills that all of us come to repentance.  Why there is a Hell is beyond my understanding but I did not write the Bible and even though you found it to not be true (I do appreciate that you admit you have at least studied it!)  I have found it is true.  

Thanks to eve in the garden sin has entered the world and now we have a not so perfect world.  (If I was Eve I would have tasted of the forbidden fruit too so she will get no judgement from me on that one) but for whatever reason we now have a fallen planet.  It is not as God intended.  Hell was not intended for us as humans but for the fallen angels and it grieves God greatly that we choose to go there.  Perhaps it is our own choice that sends us there, not God's.  It is a different way to look at it.

[BitChick]

I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.

Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?

There are mutations in the world for sure, but I wholeheartedly agree (as you probably know about me anyways that the world was perfectly created in the beginning.

Not just mutations. Diseases, viruses, cancers, extreme inefficiencies in our biology, extreme fragility in our environment, tons of vestigial organs and completely useless body parts in many animals including us... If there was someone intelligent creating all life on earth, why was he so horribly bad at it?

What if everything was perfect until sin entered the world?  Sin is pretty much the problem with this world Rassah.  It would be an awesome place if it weren't for that.  Why does God get the blame for sin?  

So, what, because Eve decided knowledge was a good idea, all the animals who were "named" a bit earlier divided themselves into predator and prey, virii were introduced, germs started to exist, plants altered their functions to defend or aggress... all because ONE woman had the audacity to learn something?\

Please. You Christians really need to learn something of the physical world before putting your "gospel" in front of even moderately educated people. This is not the dark ages, or even the fifties. This is the age of the internet. The "forbidden fruit" is at EVERYONE's fingertips. Learn new tricks, or your religion will fade into the dustbin of history like the thousands before it.

God's wisdom if foolishness to men.  I know that I am not as intelligent as most people on this board.  Maybe that is a good thing though.  Sometimes the really "smart" people get drunk on their own intelligence.  But that said, it seems something I said really ticked you off.  I was not trying to do that at all.  I just have strong views about my faith as you can see. But I take that as a sign that you have some heated feelings about this.  Will pray for whatever it is that has made you so annoyed with Christians.  

[Rassah]

I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.

Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?

There are mutations in the world for sure, but I wholeheartedly agree (as you probably know about me anyways that the world was perfectly created in the beginning.

Not just mutations. Diseases, viruses, cancers, extreme inefficiencies in our biology, extreme fragility in our environment, tons of vestigial organs and completely useless body parts in many animals including us... If there was someone intelligent creating all life on earth, why was he so horribly bad at it?

What if everything was perfect until sin entered the world?  Sin is pretty much the problem with this world Rassah.  It would be an awesome place if it weren't for that.  Why does God get the blame for sin?  

Then sin must have entered the world hundreds of millions of years ago, at the same time as life did.

Why does God get blamed for it? Because either god is all powerful and created everything, or he is not.

Well, there may have been a few people in my life where I was hopeful for that, but even in those cases God has helped me overcome my hate and pray for them instead of hating them (something only God can do BTW).

False. I have felt that way about a lot of people in the past (bullies mostly). I overcame that hate not because of god, but because I simply decided they are not worth my time and energy.

[BitChick]

I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.

Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?

There are mutations in the world for sure, but I wholeheartedly agree (as you probably know about me anyways that the world was perfectly created in the beginning.

Not just mutations. Diseases, viruses, cancers, extreme inefficiencies in our biology, extreme fragility in our environment, tons of vestigial organs and completely useless body parts in many animals including us... If there was someone intelligent creating all life on earth, why was he so horribly bad at it?

What if everything was perfect until sin entered the world?  Sin is pretty much the problem with this world Rassah.  It would be an awesome place if it weren't for that.  Why does God get the blame for sin?  

Then sin must have entered the world hundreds of millions of years ago, at the same time as life did.

You know where I stand on that!    Here is a movie you will love to hate Rassah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ

[Biomech]

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9  He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Hmm. This just reaffirms my belief that the Christian god is a vain and prideful asshole. Who the hell tortures people for eternity just because they don't give them attention or worship him?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

That gift is for everyone.  He wills that EVERYONE comes to repentance.  He is no respecter of persons.  He loves us so much He gave his Son for us.  What more could He have possibly done?

But we have a choice to accept His gift or not.  You can look at him as prideful and vain but I look at Him as a loving Father that is to be respected but still loves us and wants what is best for us.

Come on Rassah.  We have had this discussion before.  I know how frustrated you are with the concept of a God that would send anyone at all to Hell for any reason.  But is it fair that no one gets punished for the evil they commit on earth?  Should people be allowed to get away with anything and everything?  There is a price to be paid for sins.  We have all committed them.  The only ones that will be cleared of them are the ones that accept the blood of God's son as a ransom for those sins.

Dammit, you had to go there. Therein lies the crux of the matter. Pun intended. God, who won't or can't show itself, creates an avatar and has it destroyed, briefly, so that "we" are all "saved" from "sin". Convenient, eh?

Try that in life. Kill somebody, then blame it all on them. You will hang. Further, all of the "justifications" in the world do not forgive the very IDEA that a being that is mortal deserves ETERNAL damnation, regardless of what they may have done to other mortals. Also, as an anarchist, I'm in favor of compensatory justice, not punitive. Punishment only works to CORRECT a behaviour. Punishment that never ends is evidence of sadism, and nothing else.

You act like I enjoy the fact that God is punishing people for eternity.  Well, there may have been a few people in my life where I was hopeful for that, but even in those cases God has helped me overcome my hate and pray for them instead of hating them (something only God can do BTW).

My point was that God loves us all.  He wills that all of us come to repentance.  Why there is a Hell is beyond my understanding but I did not write the Bible and even though you found it to not be true (I do appreciate that you admit you have at least studied it!)  I have found it is true.  

Thanks to eve in the garden sin has entered the world and now we have a not so perfect world.  (If I was Eve I would have tasted of the forbidden fruit too so she will get no judgement from me on that one) but for whatever reason we now have a fallen planet.  It is not as God intended.  Hell was not intended for us as humans but for the fallen angels and it grieves God greatly that we choose to go there.  Perhaps it is our own choice that sends us there, not God's.  It is a different way to look at it.

I'm not acting. You are. You have to, because your religion demands a level of hypocrisy that leads to an unacceptable rate of depression and suicide. Understand, I was a Christian minister at one time. My hatred for that religion knows NO bounds, but I don't hate Christians. Or "god" either. I've simply come to understand that IF there is a god, it's clearly not that one. It doesn't make sense, form top to bottom. You admit in your own post that Eve seeking knowledge was something YOU would do, and you believe in YHVH and it's avatar.

Further, Sin. What precisely is sin? The root word from which it's derived simply means "missing the mark" or "missing the target". It's larger ramifications ONLY matter to those who believe. Frankly, modern Christianity holds on to the doctrine of hell because fear is the only "weapon" left in their arsenal. They cannot anymore win against knowledge, as just about every argument they put forth is EASILY disproven except the existence of a deity and bio-genesis.Note that last one. Not Evolution, Bio-genesis. Evolution, which I'm sure you or another Christian in this thread will soon attack, is the most tested theory there ever was. It is incompatible with the book of Genesis, and Christian doctrine. If the one is true, the other is false. And the one IS demonstrably true. Contrary to Christian claims, evolutionary theory has nothing to do with the ORIGIN of life, thus does not by itself preclude a deity. It precludes YOUR deity, because we have irrefutable evidence that the Genesis account is just plain wrong from everything after "In the beginning..."

[Rassah]

You know where I stand on that!    Here is a movie you will love to hate Rassah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ

"Can you give me some observable evidence of evolution?"

Sure! Look at your butt. You have a tail. It's under your skin, and is called a coccyx. You have no reason to have that tail, and it is actually more of a hindrance at this point (it can break, it causes pain, it gets in the way), but it's there, only because our ancestors actually had a full tail.