The problem with atheism.

[Rassah]

I just think the cultures in those days was more vicious and warlike.  There were tribes of people that were very heartless, like the Vikings lets say, and they were out to kill all other people groups without any concern for them.  Perhaps God knew that their hearts were corrupt and allowed for war?  That is just one example.

Hey, don't be dissing on Norway and Iceland. When the Viikinds "discovered" America, they didn't really mess with the natives too much, and didn't try to conquer or exploit them. Well, they did once, but got their asses handed to them. When the godly Christian Columbus and his men "discovered" America, they exploited, mutilated, and killed the natives, and ended up turning them into slaves. Hell, Columbus and company were responsible for wiping out something like 95% of the native population in America, thanks to bringing their diseases here. Why would god allow for such an enormous swath of his people to just die out needlessly? (I'm sure some would say it's to clear the land of the godless heathens, so that the good christian folk can settle it, but if some said that, I'd have to slap them)

Seems to me like the wise thing to do in your case is to have a brutally honest discussion with God.  Tell Him directly why you don't think he is fair.  Tell Him why you don't think He is real.  He can handle it.  You might just be surprised how He answers you.

Would you be surprised if someone did that, and told you they got no response? Or would you chuck that up to some excuse like "you didn't believe, or were sincere, enough?"

[Rassah]

I agree.  I think church is wrong in how they handle the topic of sex, especially the Catholic church it seems which almost seems to revere those who are celibate or don't have sex at all (such as priests and nuns.)  The Church likes to add things to scripture and that is where alot of the problems come from and hence why it is important to read the Bible for ourselves so we can know what is just traditions and what is really the truth.

But the church uses those same scriptures to defend their position. They don't write anything extra into the margiins. So, how do we, as outsiders, believe you over the word of the church? Or the word of one church over the many other denominations? You see the dillema here? You claim one thing, others claim another. Ask every Christian, Jew, or Muslim, and they will give you a different answer. The easiest conclusion to come to is "none of them actually know the answer."

[BitChick]

I just think the cultures in those days was more vicious and warlike.  There were tribes of people that were very heartless, like the Vikings lets say, and they were out to kill all other people groups without any concern for them.  Perhaps God knew that their hearts were corrupt and allowed for war?  That is just one example.

Hey, don't be dissing on Norway and Iceland. When the Viikinds "discovered" America, they didn't really mess with the natives too much, and didn't try to conquer or exploit them. Well, they did once, but got their asses handed to them. When the godly Christian Columbus and his men "discovered" America, they exploited, mutilated, and killed the natives, and ended up turning them into slaves. Hell, Columbus and company were responsible for wiping out something like 95% of the native population in America, thanks to bringing their diseases here. Why would god allow for such an enormous swath of his people to just die out needlessly? (I'm sure some would say it's to clear the land of the godless heathens, so that the good christian folk can settle it, but if some said that, I'd have to slap them)

Seems to me like the wise thing to do in your case is to have a brutally honest discussion with God.  Tell Him directly why you don't think he is fair.  Tell Him why you don't think He is real.  He can handle it.  You might just be surprised how He answers you.

Would you be surprised if someone did that, and told you they got no response? Or would you chuck that up to some excuse like "you didn't believe, or were sincere, enough?"

Many things have been done in the name of Christianity that are not "Christian."  Just because someone says that they are does not mean that they are.  

But on the being honest with God.  I agree that He deals with all of us differently.  I think sometimes we expect Him to answer in a specific way and if His response is not what we expect we dismiss Him.  One of my favorite stories in the Old Testament was about Elijah.  He went up to the mountain top and was really upset with God and felt like God had abandoned him.  It goes on to say that there was a mighty wind, but God was not in the wind, then there was a giant earthquake but God was not in the earthquake and then there was a fire but God was not in the fire, but then God Whispered.   It was a very still and small voice that He spoke with.  I think we do not quiet our hearts.  We are so busy with the craziness of life that we do not still our souls and listen.

[BitChick]

I agree.  I think church is wrong in how they handle the topic of sex, especially the Catholic church it seems which almost seems to revere those who are celibate or don't have sex at all (such as priests and nuns.)  The Church likes to add things to scripture and that is where alot of the problems come from and hence why it is important to read the Bible for ourselves so we can know what is just traditions and what is really the truth.

But the church uses those same scriptures to defend their position. They don't write anything extra into the margiins. So, how do we, as outsiders, believe you over the word of the church? Or the word of one church over the many other denominations? You see the dillema here? You claim one thing, others claim another. Ask every Christian, Jew, or Muslim, and they will give you a different answer. The easiest conclusion to come to is "none of them actually know the answer."

Of course some churches use scriptures to defend their positions.  Why do you think it was such a huge deal when Martin Luther revolted against the Catholic church when he did?  He was basically calling out all of the things that the church was doing that was not in the Bible.  The church has "traditions" that they act like is part of scripture but they are not.

This is why it is imperative, regardless of a person's denomination to read the Bible for ourselves.  Or even to go as far as my husband has done and read it in the Greek (or study the Hebrew for the Old Testament)  Then we are able really understand what was written and take off the glasses of our English culture, or whatever denomination we belong to and really understand the truth.  It is quite liberating.  The only problem is that it causes ruffles in the church whenever we question some of the teachings that go beyond what the Bible actually says.

[Rassah]

Many things have been done in the name of Christianity that are not "Christian."  Just because someone says that they are does not mean that they are.  

In the case of Columbus, the whole world said that they are, because the whole world believed as he did. As you saying that even if everyone thought they were Christian at some point in the past, they could still be wrong in regards to what it constitutes to be a Christian and to follow god''s teaching? If yes, why do you think the sheppards that wrote the bible scripts were not just as wrong as Columbus and all his christians of that time?

But on the being honest with God.  I agree that He deals with all of us differently.  I think sometimes we expect Him to answer in a specific way and if His response is not what we expect we dismiss Him.  One of my favorite stories in the Old Testament was about Elijah.  He went up to the mountain top and was really upset with God and felt like God had abandoned him.  It goes on to say that there was a mighty wind, but God was not in the wind, then there was a giant earthquake but God was not in the earthquake and then there was a fire but God was not in the fire, but then God Whispered.   It was a very still and small voice that He spoke with.  I think we do not quiet our hearts.  We are so busy with the craziness of life that we do not still our souls and listen.

So your answer is B, "you didn't believe, or were sincere enough"

[the joint]

Under this view, there is no such thing as objective morality, and thus no objective good and bad.  It's all about opinions and that's all it ever could be about.  The fact that you're "wired" to avoid pain doesn't imply it's good to do so. 

The fact that atheists still, on the whole, want good things to happen to themselves and to other people is an often-overlooked leap of faith.

I'm not sure how that follows. Atheists are writed to to avoid pain and stimulate pleasure centers, those things are directly influenced by their actions, which just happen to correlate with "good" and "bad"" (or, more correctly, opinions of what's good and what's bad are based on those stimulations), and thus atheists want good things to happen, simply because the are wired like that. Why does faith have to enter into this?

I'm saying it's a leap of faith if you believe the Universe is inherently meaningless.  Saying it's meaningless but then giving your own desires and sufferings any significance is just a non-sequitur. There can be no logical justification for anything in a meaningless Universe.  If you assert that set x is meaningless and set x contains set y, set y is therefore also meaningless.  You should have no business talking about what's good or bad for you in a meaningless Universe.  

Saying you 'just happen' to be wired a certain way is like saying it 'just happens' that everything in the Universe adheres to mathematical laws...as if it were some kind of fluke.  Given that mathematical laws are meaningful, it's self-evidently the opposite.

[dank]

There is meaning in everything, you just have to see it or create it.  Hell, there's meaning in my avatar of a guy eating himself, I didn't know this at the time of choosing but have since learned about the concept of Ouroboros, look up what it means.

Your world can be meaningless, limited or godless, but it doesn't make it apply to any other reality other than yourself.

[yogi]

@dank
Ah it's God himself. I thought you'd be too busy giving AIDS to babies in Africa to post here.

[dank]

How can life exist without death?  It can't.  Do not fear the transition, it is not bad.

[theonewhowaskazu]

There is meaning in everything, you just have to see it or create it.  Hell, there's meaning in my avatar of a guy eating himself, I didn't know this at the time of choosing but have since learned about the concept of Ouroboros, look up what it means.

Your world can be meaningless, limited or godless, but it doesn't make it apply to any other reality other than yourself.

Your avatar is a guy eating himself? WTF?

[dank]

Just as we humans are stuck in our cycle of self consumption and destruction.

[yogi]

Just as we humans are stuck in our cycle of self consumption and destruction.

This negative attitude towards humanity is just a reflection of how you feel about yourself. If you try to be a better person you may find that you are once again able to cope with reality.

[dank]

Not being negative, it simply is.  What happens when you eat something?  Chemical reactions, change, destruction, creation of new life.

[Rassah]

I'm saying it's a leap of faith if you believe the Universe is inherently meaningless.  Saying it's meaningless but then giving your own desires and sufferings any significance is just a non-sequitur. There can be no logical justification for anything in a meaningless Universe.  If you assert that set x is meaningless and set x contains set y, set y is therefore also meaningless.  You should have no business talking about what's good or bad for you in a meaningless Universe.  

As was mentioned, the question isn't whether the universe is meaningless, but to whom is it meaningless. It has a lot of meaning to those people with the pleasure and pain centers who are following the actions they were wired for, but it's pretty much meaningless to the rest of it's planets, stars, and existence in general.

Saying you 'just happen' to be wired a certain way is like saying it 'just happens' that everything in the Universe adheres to mathematical laws...as if it were some kind of fluke.  Given that mathematical laws are meaningful, it's self-evidently the opposite.

I guess in this case it depends on your definition of meaningful. Plus, fluke implies that it could/should have happened one way, but turned out to happen another way. With the universe, it just happened. If there are other universes, things likely happened differently there. So, it's not so much a fluke as just inevitability. I'm not sure that mathematical laws are meaningful, either. Again, to whom? We think they are meaningful, because they help us understand the universe and create awesome tech gadgets. The universe doesn't really care. And if the laws were diffferent, some other inteligent creatures would have likely found them meaningful in some other way, while the rest of the universe would just continue to exist.
So, maybe you're ascribint some definition of meaningful to mean "it isn't just random, it's specific, has meaning, can be used to exchange information," and I'm not sure what the goal of that is (for a creationist, that would be proof of inteligent design), but I don't think they are meaningful, or even significant, beyond our own personal interests.

[Rassah]

Your world can be meaningless, limited or godless, but it doesn't make it apply to any other reality other than yourself.

I am pretty sure you got that backwards. It's: Your world can be full of meaning, limiteless, and with god, but it doesn't make it apply to any reality other than yourself. The rest of us have out own realities, meanings, and gods.

[dank]

And they will converge.  When I fly.

Although we have our own realities we share this universe, we are this universe and we are all one.

[Rassah]

Not being negative, it simply is.  What happens when you eat something?  Chemical reactions, change, destruction, creation of new life.

I'm pretty sure the only thing that happens is shit. There may be other life that feeds on your shit, but otherwise you just make shit. Butt-babies are a myth.

[dank]

Yes but the conscious spirit left the body of that shit long before it came to be.

[Biomech]

even sex was a gift from God.

I thought sex, and the subsequent reproduction and childbirth, was a punishment from god for the original sin? If it was a gift, why would so many churches throughout history be so condemning of it?

This is a common misperception. Christianity has so many truly egregious things in it that this should be corrected just to clear the slate for the real stuff.

In fact, it's far worse.

According to the Genesis account, the original sin was seeking "the knowledge of good and evil" which was forbidden to them. In short, the Edenites were supposed to be brutish and stupid.

[Mike Christ]

This is a common misperception. Christianity has so many truly egregious things in it that this should be corrected just to clear the slate for the real stuff.

In fact, it's far worse.

According to the Genesis account, the original sin was seeking "the knowledge of good and evil" which was forbidden to them. In short, the Edenites were supposed to be brutish and stupid.

Ethics a sin?  Who wrote this book, a statist?