The problem with atheism.

[Biomech]

This is a common misperception. Christianity has so many truly egregious things in it that this should be corrected just to clear the slate for the real stuff.

In fact, it's far worse.

According to the Genesis account, the original sin was seeking "the knowledge of good and evil" which was forbidden to them. In short, the Edenites were supposed to be brutish and stupid.

Ethics a sin?  Who wrote this book, a statist?

Probably. The Hebrews were an offshoot of Babylon, the first known empire. But whether the largely unknown authors were statists or not, the bible has been used to justify the depredations of the state for all of it's existence, even in it's primitive forms.

"God says so" is a powerful argument to the superstitious. And not subject to falsification.

[1715220041]

1715220041

[1715220041]

1715220041

[Mike Christ]

Probably. The Hebrews were an offshoot of Babylon, the first known empire. But whether the largely unknown authors were statists or not, the bible has been used to justify the depredations of the state for all of it's existence, even in it's primitive forms.

"God says so" is a powerful argument to the superstitious. And not subject to falsification.

That would explain why so many rulers claimed to either be Gods or were blessed by God to rule; once you train a people to believe self-governance is a ticket to Hell, you make yourself (assuming yourself is a king) not only wanted, but impossible to live without.

[Biomech]

Probably. The Hebrews were an offshoot of Babylon, the first known empire. But whether the largely unknown authors were statists or not, the bible has been used to justify the depredations of the state for all of it's existence, even in it's primitive forms.

"God says so" is a powerful argument to the superstitious. And not subject to falsification.

That would explain why so many rulers claimed to either be Gods or were blessed by God to rule; once you train a people to believe self-governance is a ticket to Hell, you make yourself (assuming yourself is a king) not only wanted, but impossible to live without.

Yep. In my opinion, this was the sole reason for organized religion to come into existence.

[BitChick]

Many things have been done in the name of Christianity that are not "Christian."  Just because someone says that they are does not mean that they are.  

In the case of Columbus, the whole world said that they are, because the whole world believed as he did. As you saying that even if everyone thought they were Christian at some point in the past, they could still be wrong in regards to what it constitutes to be a Christian and to follow god''s teaching? If yes, why do you think the sheppards that wrote the bible scripts were not just as wrong as Columbus and all his christians of that time?

But on the being honest with God.  I agree that He deals with all of us differently.  I think sometimes we expect Him to answer in a specific way and if His response is not what we expect we dismiss Him.  One of my favorite stories in the Old Testament was about Elijah.  He went up to the mountain top and was really upset with God and felt like God had abandoned him.  It goes on to say that there was a mighty wind, but God was not in the wind, then there was a giant earthquake but God was not in the earthquake and then there was a fire but God was not in the fire, but then God Whispered.   It was a very still and small voice that He spoke with.  I think we do not quiet our hearts.  We are so busy with the craziness of life that we do not still our souls and listen.

So your answer is B, "you didn't believe, or were sincere enough"

To the first question, I guess you are asking if the people that wrote the Bible were wrong?  God proved in the Bible he could use a donkey to serve a purpose if necessary.  Also, just because someone says that they are one does not mean they are one. The Bible makes this clear and even warns people about that in this verse "Many will say that I did all these things in your name but I will say depart from me you evil doers.  I never knew you!"  That said, we never fully know what is in a man's heart.  Only God knows that for sure.  But the Bible does say that you will know a "tree by it's fruit."  The fruit you need to look for to determine if someone is "Christ like" are these things:  Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self-control.  If someone does not display these things then I would question their fruit and what kind of "tree" they are.  Granted, I have not always displayed these things but I pray that I will have this fruit daily in my life and not be filled with the opposite, which is hate, anger, impatience, lack of self-control and so on.

I guess my answer for the last thing was not that "you don't believe or were sincere enough."  I thought my answer was more along the lines that perhaps God was whispering an answer and the person did not listen.  That is different than not believing or being sincere.  I am guilty of not taking time to listen to what God is trying to tell me so no judgement here. I have to really quiet myself and take the time to listen to Him. And I also have had times where He did not answer me like I expected Him and I did not like what He was telling me. That was all I was saying. 

[hawkeye]

That would explain why so many rulers claimed to either be Gods or were blessed by God to rule; once you train a people to believe self-governance is a ticket to Hell, you make yourself (assuming yourself is a king) not only wanted, but impossible to live without.

Right.  That there would be no reason to follow them otherwise.  Those of us who have thought about government know that there is no justification for it.  There is no reason for them to have the authority they have, that it is all based on lies.

But this was back when governments were first getting started.  Back when there was no reason to follow someone else.   But like has been said, the people were superstitious and so if their priests declared the leader to be ordained by God, then they would have to follow them or risk ending up in Hell.  It's also why Jesus is referred to as the King of Kings.  The priests in return get many benefits from the leader.  It;s a nice little scam that has worked well for a long time, but started to break down in the scientific revolution and so new stories were required.  Like "all men were created equal and the government is there to serve man and we have freedom if the government remains in the constitution".  lol

I think first came religion then kings, pharoahs etc which eventually morphed into government.  But all major governments have had a state religion until the last few centuries.  The relationship between governments and religions has been very incestuous throughout history.

[Rassah]

That would explain why so many rulers claimed to either be Gods or were blessed by God to rule; once you train a people to believe self-governance is a ticket to Hell, you make yourself (assuming yourself is a king) not only wanted, but impossible to live without.

Yep. In my opinion, this was the sole reason for organized religion to come into existence.

That's not an opinion. Especially with respect to Christianity. We actually have historical records to support this.

[Rassah]

But like has been said, the people were superstitious and so if their priests declared the leader to be ordained by God, then they would have to follow them or risk ending up in Hell.

It was actually quite a bit simpler and more sinister than that. And also the way Sovier Union came into power. Basically, you convince only enough people that there is some absolute truth (God is real and says so-and-so, or State and Motherland are so-and-so), and convince them that those who disagree with or question these absolutes (which are designed to be unquestionable, like god is) are enemies of the state/religion, who will try to convert, subvert, and destroy you. You don't even need to convince everyone of this. Just enough so that if someone does start to question, everyone else, whether they actually believe your BS or not, will report on them, kill them, or burn them at the stake, just out of fear of being found out to be such outsider themselves. Eventually, you can even end up with no one really believing any of that BS, but still towing the line, and even being overzealous about it, just so they don't get caught.
And this is why internet, global unrestricted communication, and anonymity are so important, and have contributed so much to the fall of dictatorships and theocracies.

[semaforo]

   We are all connected, but our identity and perception is only possible by the division of phenomena into categories. Because these categories always change, some people say that there is no absolute truth. This is true- as long as you are talking about something that can be referred to in the plural, you are not talking about the truth. If I say I am alive, this is not true, because I am constantly in the process of dying. The truth is eternal, or it is not the truth. There are no truths- only Truth. In other words, there are no truths- only Truth, or there are no gods but God. La ilahah ilallah.

      I also have the "know a tree by its fruit" firmly rooted in my mind. However, I see the God is Love thinking as a form of idolatry. By trying to deal with the paradox of suffering, which is easily solved by firm belief in continuing consciousness after death, qualities like hatred and anger are given agency, therefore lifting them to the status of a partner in divine agency, a violation of the first commandment given to Moses, peace be on him.

    Turn the other cheek and peace and love were convenient doctrines for the version of the bible endorsed by Constantine at Nicea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

  Other evidence in the same selection of texts suggests that wrath is definitely part of divine will- for example

 2 Kings 2:23-25 23

Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.  

or when Jesus, peace be with him, flipped the money changers tables- Mark 11:15-19

On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’[a]? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’

  Or when Jesus, peace be on him, told his followers that he wished to kill anyone who would not accept the truth of his message

Luke 19:27

But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.


  Jesus, may he be blessed, did not only want his enemies killed- he wants to watch.

  I'm just saying that hatred does not necessarily mean someone is misguided- I think it is right to hate injustice, because hatred gives one the motivation to fight injustice. Joy and peace are not necessarily the marks of someone who is rightly guided- there are some child molestors who are very joyful and peaceful about what they are doing, and I hope that I will never react to such actions with joyful, peaceful, and loving responses. Right is to say when something is right, and say when something is wrong, and to do something about it with the strength you have been given.


  It's hard to accept the enormity of the lie that the whole western world has been fed for centuries- the holy Prophet of God, Jesus, was neither the son of God, nor God himself. It is not difficult to verify this- documentation abounds. Old habits are hard to break- just ask any alcoholic.

[bernard75]

There is no problem with Atheism, just like there is no with Christianity, Islam or Buddhism.
One will certainly not change another persons firm conviction on a forum.

[hawkeye]

One will certainly not change another persons firm conviction on a forum.

That's true, but when I was asking questions about government I came to forums to see what people had to say.   The same is true for religion.   People want to find out if there is another side to the arguments the religious put forth.   Forums can educate and change people's minds by giving people access to the thoughts of others.  That's one of the reasons I for one participate in them.  I both gather information I don't have and provide information to others.  When you debate someone it is not to change that person's mind, that is folly for the most part, it is to give information to others.

[bernard75]

Yeah, but the kind of liberal thinking people make at the very best 5% of the population.
And i was dipped and grew up in an extremely catholic environment, but that hasnt restricted me from using my tiny brain and imagination.

[dank]

Can someone please explain how nothing occurs?  Nothing is impossible, there's always something.

[Rassah]

Can someone please explain how nothing occurs?  Nothing is impossible, there's always something.

Why is there always something? If you create a thick lead sphere, and stick it into space behind some planet far in our solar system, so that the planet is blocking out the sun, the inside of the sphere is exposed to vaccum to get all the gas out, and the lead in the sphere blocks out all light and radiation, that sphere will have plenty of nothing in it.

[dank]

No it will still be everything, it doesn't cease to exist, it will be transferred as energy.  Let's think beyond the physical, because the physical does not exist without the internal, consciousness.  Consciousness can't be destroyed, only transferred.

Tell me, does space still exist even though it's nothing?  To experience nothing is to encounter blankness, emptiness or darkness.  It's not nothing because we can still experience it as what it is, it's just a lack of something for a better word.

So try believing something is there, because it is.

[Rassah]

No it will still be everything, it doesn't cease to exist, it will be transferred as energy.  Let's think beyond the physical, because the physical does not exist without the internal, consciousness.  Consciousness can't be destroyed, only transferred.

Stop making shit up.

Tell me, does space still exist even though it's nothing?

Nope. It doesn't exist. Inky thing that exists is the boundaries surrounding that nothing. Once you move beyond those boundaries, you will be the only thing existing there. Everything around you will be nothing, and not exist.

  To experience nothing is to encounter blankness, emptiness or darkness.  It's not nothing because we can still experience it as what it is, it's just a lack of something for a better word.

It itsn't experiencing something, it's having a lack of experience. That's what nothing is - a lack of everything, including lack of anything for you to experience. It's like saying bald is a hair color.

[dank]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

What boundaries?  I used to think we lived in a box until I contemplated what was outside of the box.

One cannot stop experiencing, one can only experience nothing.

[Rassah]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

That doesn't mean you can move energy/matter from one space to another. If I create that lead sphere and take it into the vacuum of space, I didn't destroy energy, air, or photons inside it, I just let them espace into the surrounding areas. Also, if you say that there is no such thing as nothing, that would mean the energy of the universe is infinite, and that either the universe has existed for ever, or that light travels faster than the speed of light. So that no matter how far you go, you will always have energy and matter. But we know that's now true. We know that the universe was created 13.8 billion years ago, and we know that light travels at a limited speed, so we know that there is absolutely nothing farther than 13.8 billion light years away. There is a limit boundary to the universe, and if you travel faster than the speed of light to get past that boundary, eventually you will get to a space where no matter, energy, light, or universe exists.

What boundaries?  I used to think we lived in a box until I contemplated what was outside of the box.

How does what is outside the box change the fact that inside the box there can still be nothing?

One cannot stop experiencing, one can only experience nothing.

If you are "experiencing" nothing, then that nothing exists, since you are experiencing it... right?

[dank]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

That doesn't mean you can move energy/matter from one space to another. If I create that lead sphere and take it into the vacuum of space, I didn't destroy energy, air, or photons inside it, I just let them espace into the surrounding areas. Also, if you say that there is no such thing as nothing, that would mean the energy of the universe is infinite, and that either the universe has existed for ever, or that light travels faster than the speed of light. So that no matter how far you go, you will always have energy and matter. But we know that's now true. We know that the universe was created 13.8 billion years ago, and we know that light travels at a limited speed, so we know that there is absolutely nothing farther than 13.8 billion light years away. There is a limit boundary to the universe, and if you travel faster than the speed of light to get past that boundary, eventually you will get to a space where no matter, energy, light, or universe exists.

What boundaries?  I used to think we lived in a box until I contemplated what was outside of the box.

How does what is outside the box change the fact that inside the box there can still be nothing?

One cannot stop experiencing, one can only experience nothing.

If you are "experiencing" nothing, then that nothing exists, since you are experiencing it... right?

It seems you have it figured out.  Your soul escapes into the surrounding areas when it is freed from your body.  And yes, the energy of the universe is infinite, it has existed for ever and always will exist.  Consciousness interacts instantaneously no matter the distance, shall I find the quantum experiment explaining it?  Matter is present in this reality, when you die you experience a brief period of absence from matter, aka infinite love aka god.  If there's a space where no energy or universe exists, how is there space?  Even if our universe is indeed a bubble, there are infinite dimensions to the universe.

How does what is outside the box change the fact that inside the box there can still be nothing?

How is nothing inside the box if the box is something?

If you are "experiencing" nothing, then that nothing exists, since you are experiencing it... right?

Nothing in the sense of emptiness, darkness etc, yes, but you (your consciousness) is still there.  This can be demonstrated by personal experience.  A friend that I do not believe completely believes in god did DMT, the spirit molecule, your brain makes it naturally in your pineal gland and it is theoretically released when you die.  When you reach a threshold dosage your soul is freed from the physical realm and you ascend to higher dimensions.  What he saw; darkness, nothing.  But he still experienced it.  What I saw on DMT; I zipped through a winding neighborhood of souls, souls I had known before this life, I could feel our bonds.  I created a room with hair like walls that ever created themselves.  Other people have literally experience as if it was a lucid dream.  DMT is a glimpse of the afterlife, it's not for everybody but everybody will encounter blasting off one day, so prepping is good.

And please do not refute psychedelic experience as false or drug induced until you've experienced it for yourself.  There may be truths and falses involved when it comes to the mind, the key is to find the truths that become true to you and those around you, universal truth.  There's many sides of the story but there everything was how it was when it was just as it was.

Infinity is a hard concept to grasp.  Try thinking beyond the grand illusions of time and space.  Imagine you're a single point, a single point doesn't have anything outside of it but everything inside.

[the joint]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

That doesn't mean you can move energy/matter from one space to another. If I create that lead sphere and take it into the vacuum of space, I didn't destroy energy, air, or photons inside it, I just let them espace into the surrounding areas. Also, if you say that there is no such thing as nothing, that would mean the energy of the universe is infinite, and that either the universe has existed for ever, or that light travels faster than the speed of light. So that no matter how far you go, you will always have energy and matter. But we know that's now true. We know that the universe was created 13.8 billion years ago, and we know that light travels at a limited speed, so we know that there is absolutely nothing farther than 13.8 billion light years away. There is a limit boundary to the universe, and if you travel faster than the speed of light to get past that boundary, eventually you will get to a space where no matter, energy, light, or universe exists.

What boundaries?  I used to think we lived in a box until I contemplated what was outside of the box.

How does what is outside the box change the fact that inside the box there can still be nothing?

One cannot stop experiencing, one can only experience nothing.

If you are "experiencing" nothing, then that nothing exists, since you are experiencing it... right?

I'm sorry, but I have to point out that the idea that the Universe is 13.8 billion years old is fraught with so many problems that I can't believe it's still asserted by scientists. 

On a somewhat similar note, I also find it funny that the 'Big Bang,' a theory with a name seemingly created by a Neanderthal, is where the explanatory buck stops.

I'd (nearly) stake my life on a bet that in the (probably) not-so-distant future we're going to be looking at the Big Bang in the same context as the flat earth theory.

[dank]

Big bang is internal, it happens when you wake up and every moment thereon.  Big bang is creation of matter by consciousness.

My take on that.