Bitcoin Shrinking - The Long View

[Synaptic]

It is opinion.  The only thing we know for sure is that their are offers and bids in the high thirteens right now. Everything else is opinion.  Value is what a willing buyer and seller agree on. 

If only we knew for sure that those were the real bids/offers, and not the market makers themselves trying to maintain a certain profit level by simply massaging the numbers inside their database. Do you really have trust in the unregulated market makers?

I think this is probably a bit TOO conspiratorial, even for how full of shit the exchanges are.  What is for certain is that the people who run the exchanges, as well as the bitcoin aristocra....I mean "early adopters," are in total and complete control of the markets as long as people continue to buy into bitcoin.

Fortunately regular people are beginning to move past the hype and not throwing their paychecks into such a bullshit scheme anymore.

[billyjoeallen]

Do some currencies hyper-inflate? Sure do, and then they correct and recover.

Many don't recover. they are dead forever. Confederate dollars, for example.

[Synaptic]

Do some currencies hyper-inflate? Sure do, and then they correct and recover.

Many don't recover. they are dead forever. Confederate dollars, for example.

]

Or the Reichsmark, etc.

But did the underlying economy, people, families, businesses just disappear with them?  No.  They just started using a different currency.

That's why I don't care at all what happens to the Dollar, the Euro, whatever. Doesn't fucking matter. Life goes on. Cycles happen. Humanity learns, grows.

And we don't need an alternative currency run by a bunch of amateurs to do it.

[BTConomist]

Well I'm sorry that I have no interest in throughly explaining myself to someone who doesn't understand what I've already written. I hope that someone else wouldn't mind "translating" or elaborating for you.

Let's me see here...

It seems that in order to make OP's assertion valid, one must simply rephrase "The long term trend for bitcoin value is contraction, not expansion." as "The long term trend for fiat/bitcoin exchange rates is contraction, not expansion."

See, we no longer talking about bitcoin's value--only about the ability of market makers (like MtGox crew, etc) to maintain fiat/bitcoin current exchange rates for more than a month or two. OP is right, bitcoin's true value is WAY BELOW current exchange rates due to bitcoin not having any economy to call Home. So, stop worrying about the exchange rates that market makers are feeding you every day. Instead, start offering your bitcoins to merchants... Let's see if they do value BTC more than their local fiat currencies.

Absolutely. You've summarized quite accurately.

Now, my OPINION is that BTC will never find a use with the wider public because it's "advantages" are really quite meaningless to your average consumer, and CERTAINLY don't outweigh the glut of inconveniences inherent to it.

But what's not opinion is that the exchange rate is massively overvalued and is now headed down to a more accurate valuation as the hype continues to subside.

And by "not opinion", I'm assuming you meant that "it's a fact"?... If so, then I concur: all of the shelves with fiat currencies have been emptied out; only the shelves with overripened "bananas" still remain. If only bitcoin miners could survive on bananas, we'd be fine!

As far as BTC finding its use with the wider public, you and I are of a different opinion. You see, there's still hope that miners would eventually realize that without spending, there can never be a deflation in the deflationary "by design" economy. In order to get from 21,000,000BTCs (monetary base) to 2,100,000,000,000,000BTCs (expected total money supply), all of 21,000,000BTCs must be constantly exchanging hands (and the more hands the better). Miners hoarding bitcoins is equivalent to the central banks (in inflationary economies) raising the minimum reserve requirements of their member banks (or bitcoin users, in our case), thus reducing the available money supply.

As for bitcoin advantages, perhaps you should try looking at the bitcoin network as the best-in-class accounting system/ledger of who owes what to whom. For example, what stops one neighbor (a computer buff) from agreeing with another neighbor (a landscaping business owner) to exchange their skills/services for bitcoins, rather than for local fiat currency? Bitcoins are perfect for that type of contracts.

But the point is that fiat currencies aren't evil, serve their purpose just fine and have for many hundreds of years and likely will for a hundred years to come. Do some currencies hyper-inflate? Sure do, and then they correct and recover. And it's not the fact that a currency can be inflated that makes fiat "evil," it's that there are corrupt governments, and Bitcoin isn't going to do a single fucking thing to remedy the fact that people allow corrupt governments to exist.

In fact, the motherfucking BITCOIN economy/exchange is more corrupt than the US economy and the FED right now!

Fiat currencies are not evil, but their money supply is out of people's control. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a currency of the people by the people. Wouldn't you agree that voting with money is much more effective and efficient than voting with ballots or feet? (Money is fuel, so to speak.) If you control the money supply, you get to say what goes and what doesn't for whatever type of economy you are envisioning or trying to build. Having a choice is great, no?

Now, we just need to find a way to keep the market makers out of bitcoin economy... The stench is overbearing!

[Synaptic]

Well I'm sorry that I have no interest in throughly explaining myself to someone who doesn't understand what I've already written. I hope that someone else wouldn't mind "translating" or elaborating for you.

Let's me see here...

It seems that in order to make OP's assertion valid, one must simply rephrase "The long term trend for bitcoin value is contraction, not expansion." as "The long term trend for fiat/bitcoin exchange rates is contraction, not expansion."

See, we no longer talking about bitcoin's value--only about the ability of market makers (like MtGox crew, etc) to maintain fiat/bitcoin current exchange rates for more than a month or two. OP is right, bitcoin's true value is WAY BELOW current exchange rates due to bitcoin not having any economy to call Home. So, stop worrying about the exchange rates that market makers are feeding you every day. Instead, start offering your bitcoins to merchants... Let's see if they do value BTC more than their local fiat currencies.

Absolutely. You've summarized quite accurately.

Now, my OPINION is that BTC will never find a use with the wider public because it's "advantages" are really quite meaningless to your average consumer, and CERTAINLY don't outweigh the glut of inconveniences inherent to it.

But what's not opinion is that the exchange rate is massively overvalued and is now headed down to a more accurate valuation as the hype continues to subside.

And by "not opinion", I'm assuming you meant that "it's a fact"?... If so, then I concur: all of the shelves with fiat currencies have been emptied out; only the shelves with overripened "bananas" still remain. If only bitcoin miners could survive on bananas, we'd be fine!

As far as BTC finding its use with the wider public, you and I are of a different opinion. You see, there's still hope that miners would eventually realize that without spending, there can never be a deflation in the deflationary "by design" economy. In order to get from 21,000,000BTCs (monetary base) to 2,100,000,000,000,000BTCs (expected total money supply), all of 21,000,000BTCs must be constantly exchanging hands (and the more hands the better). Miners hoarding bitcoins is equivalent to the central banks (in inflationary economies) raising the minimum reserve requirements of their member banks (or bitcoin users, in our case), thus reducing the available money supply.

As for bitcoin advantages, perhaps you should try looking at the bitcoin network as the best-in-class accounting system/ledger of who owes what to whom. For example, what stops one neighbor (a computer buff) from agreeing with another neighbor (a landscaping business owner) to exchange their skills/services for bitcoins, rather than for local fiat currency? Bitcoins are perfect for that type of contracts.

But the point is that fiat currencies aren't evil, serve their purpose just fine and have for many hundreds of years and likely will for a hundred years to come. Do some currencies hyper-inflate? Sure do, and then they correct and recover. And it's not the fact that a currency can be inflated that makes fiat "evil," it's that there are corrupt governments, and Bitcoin isn't going to do a single fucking thing to remedy the fact that people allow corrupt governments to exist.

In fact, the motherfucking BITCOIN economy/exchange is more corrupt than the US economy and the FED right now!

Fiat currencies are not evil, but their money supply is out of people's control. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a currency of the people by the people. Wouldn't you agree that voting with money is much more effective and efficient than voting with ballots or feet? (Money is fuel, so to speak.) If you control the money supply, you get to say what goes and what doesn't for whatever type of economy you are envisioning or trying to build. Having a choice is great, no?

Now, we just need to find a way to keep the market makers out of bitcoin economy... The stench is overbearing!

Negative. Every currency belonging to a democratically elected government is directly beholden to the populace. The point is that democratic populations are impotent and ineffectual at managing their own government and essentially deserve everything that they get coming to them.

Also, I'd much rather deal with the Dragon's Den on Wall Street and the Fat Cats in the Fed than the shithole excuses for monetary exchanges that belong to bitcoin and the Bitcoin Elite that hold the lions share of the entire currency among a tiny number of hands...

Don't delude yourself. Bitcoin is not a "currency" by the people for the people. It's a Multi-level Marketing scheme run by "Oligarchs" and market shysters.

[patvarilly]

Fiat currencies are not evil, but their money supply is out of people's control. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a currency of the people by the people. Wouldn't you agree that voting with money is much more effective and efficient than voting with ballots or feet? (Money is fuel, so to speak.) If you control the money supply, you get to say what goes and what doesn't for whatever type of economy you are envisioning or trying to build. Having a choice is great, no?

Now, we just need to find a way to keep the market makers out of bitcoin economy... The stench is overbearing!

I can empathize with the uneasiness of money supplies being controlled by central banks (even though, personally, I think the system works reasonably well most of the time).  I've posted some ideas on how to keep some of the "people-control" aspect of the money supply in Bitcoin without having to buy into the deflationary mindset here, and I'd love it if you or anyone else on this thread could spare a few minutes to comment:

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29252.0

[BTConomist]

It is opinion.  The only thing we know for sure is that their are offers and bids in the high thirteens right now. Everything else is opinion.  Value is what a willing buyer and seller agree on. 

If only we knew for sure that those were the real bids/offers, and not the market makers themselves trying to maintain a certain profit level by simply massaging the numbers inside their database. Do you really have trust in the unregulated market makers?

If I want to buy right now, I know what I have to pay. If I want to sell right now, I know what I have to charge.  If the volumes are high, the price will move to the next best offer/bid. You are right that the market depth chart is not completely reliable, but for small amounts, it doesn't hardly matter at all.

Buyers may think its overvalued and sellers think it's undervalued. They meet in the middle just the way they are supposed to if they want to transact now. otherwise they bide their time and take their chances. Both sides.  

Yes, it's up to the parties at each end of the exchange transaction to either accept or reject the market maker's price. However, this approach produces unrealistic expectations about the future of bitcoin. In addition, it offers nothing of value to the bitcoin network itself, as all trading activity occurs outside the bitcoin block chain, which means that there are no transaction fees to compensate miners for maintaining and protecting (from potential attacks by rogue nodes) the bitcoin network.

[Synaptic]

It is opinion.  The only thing we know for sure is that their are offers and bids in the high thirteens right now. Everything else is opinion.  Value is what a willing buyer and seller agree on. 

If only we knew for sure that those were the real bids/offers, and not the market makers themselves trying to maintain a certain profit level by simply massaging the numbers inside their database. Do you really have trust in the unregulated market makers?

If I want to buy right now, I know what I have to pay. If I want to sell right now, I know what I have to charge.  If the volumes are high, the price will move to the next best offer/bid. You are right that the market depth chart is not completely reliable, but for small amounts, it doesn't hardly matter at all.

Buyers may think its overvalued and sellers think it's undervalued. They meet in the middle just the way they are supposed to if they want to transact now. otherwise they bide their time and take their chances. Both sides.  

Yes, it's up to the parties at each end of the exchange transaction to either accept or reject the market maker's price. However, this approach produces unrealistic expectations about the future of bitcoin. In addition, it offers nothing of value to the bitcoin network itself, as all trading activity occurs outside the bitcoin block chain, which means that there are no transaction fees to compensate miners for maintaining and protecting (from potential attacks by rogue nodes) the bitcoin network.

Yeah, it's interesting how the retarded bitcoining masses really don't even realize that so much of their bitcoin "economy" exists wholly within private databases...

It's just a fucking joke all around.

[gusti]

Henry Morton, the first president of the Stevens Institute of Technology, feared that Edison's lightbulb was "a fraud upon the public" and Marshall Ferdinand Fox called aeroplanes "interesting toys" with "no military value".

Maybe you have the balls to post your real name here, and be the Morton and Fox for the posterity.

[SlaveInDebt]

Yeah, it's interesting how the retarded bitcoining masses really don't even realize that so much of their bitcoin "economy" exists wholly within private databases...

It's just a fucking joke all around.

I admire your persistence towards something you dislike so strongly.

[Synaptic]

Yeah, it's interesting how the retarded bitcoining masses really don't even realize that so much of their bitcoin "economy" exists wholly within private databases...

It's just a fucking joke all around.

I admire your persistence towards something you dislike so strongly.

I admire your inability to post a suitable rebuttal to the fact I expressed.

[gusti]

which facts ? only rants

[SlaveInDebt]

which facts ? only rants

Exactly, mostly angry swearing which show's a lot in the way of debate.

[BTConomist]

Well I'm sorry that I have no interest in throughly explaining myself to someone who doesn't understand what I've already written. I hope that someone else wouldn't mind "translating" or elaborating for you.

Let's me see here...

It seems that in order to make OP's assertion valid, one must simply rephrase "The long term trend for bitcoin value is contraction, not expansion." as "The long term trend for fiat/bitcoin exchange rates is contraction, not expansion."

See, we no longer talking about bitcoin's value--only about the ability of market makers (like MtGox crew, etc) to maintain fiat/bitcoin current exchange rates for more than a month or two. OP is right, bitcoin's true value is WAY BELOW current exchange rates due to bitcoin not having any economy to call Home. So, stop worrying about the exchange rates that market makers are feeding you every day. Instead, start offering your bitcoins to merchants... Let's see if they do value BTC more than their local fiat currencies.

Absolutely. You've summarized quite accurately.

Now, my OPINION is that BTC will never find a use with the wider public because it's "advantages" are really quite meaningless to your average consumer, and CERTAINLY don't outweigh the glut of inconveniences inherent to it.

But what's not opinion is that the exchange rate is massively overvalued and is now headed down to a more accurate valuation as the hype continues to subside.

And by "not opinion", I'm assuming you meant that "it's a fact"?... If so, then I concur: all of the shelves with fiat currencies have been emptied out; only the shelves with overripened "bananas" still remain. If only bitcoin miners could survive on bananas, we'd be fine!

As far as BTC finding its use with the wider public, you and I are of a different opinion. You see, there's still hope that miners would eventually realize that without spending, there can never be a deflation in the deflationary "by design" economy. In order to get from 21,000,000BTCs (monetary base) to 2,100,000,000,000,000BTCs (expected total money supply), all of 21,000,000BTCs must be constantly exchanging hands (and the more hands the better). Miners hoarding bitcoins is equivalent to the central banks (in inflationary economies) raising the minimum reserve requirements of their member banks (or bitcoin users, in our case), thus reducing the available money supply.

As for bitcoin advantages, perhaps you should try looking at the bitcoin network as the best-in-class accounting system/ledger of who owes what to whom. For example, what stops one neighbor (a computer buff) from agreeing with another neighbor (a landscaping business owner) to exchange their skills/services for bitcoins, rather than for local fiat currency? Bitcoins are perfect for that type of contracts.

But the point is that fiat currencies aren't evil, serve their purpose just fine and have for many hundreds of years and likely will for a hundred years to come. Do some currencies hyper-inflate? Sure do, and then they correct and recover. And it's not the fact that a currency can be inflated that makes fiat "evil," it's that there are corrupt governments, and Bitcoin isn't going to do a single fucking thing to remedy the fact that people allow corrupt governments to exist.

In fact, the motherfucking BITCOIN economy/exchange is more corrupt than the US economy and the FED right now!

Fiat currencies are not evil, but their money supply is out of people's control. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a currency of the people by the people. Wouldn't you agree that voting with money is much more effective and efficient than voting with ballots or feet? (Money is fuel, so to speak.) If you control the money supply, you get to say what goes and what doesn't for whatever type of economy you are envisioning or trying to build. Having a choice is great, no?

Now, we just need to find a way to keep the market makers out of bitcoin economy... The stench is overbearing!

Negative. Every currency belonging to a democratically elected government is directly beholden to the populace. The point is that democratic populations are impotent and ineffectual at managing their own government and essentially deserve everything that they get coming to them.

Also, I'd much rather deal with the Dragon's Den on Wall Street and the Fat Cats in the Fed than the shithole excuses for monetary exchanges that belong to bitcoin and the Bitcoin Elite that hold the lions share of the entire currency among a tiny number of hands...

Don't delude yourself. Bitcoin is not a "currency" by the people for the people. It's a Multi-level Marketing scheme run by "Oligarchs" and market shysters.

Would have to disagree with you on one thing...

Currency is beholden to those who issue it. So, if you let others (e.g. government, central bank, etc) to issue currency on your behalf, then it is beholden to them, not you. In bitcoin's case, although it is the miners who are the issuers of BTC, everyone can set up their own mining rig at any time. The biggest hurdle that must be overcome is miners believing that bitcoin is an investment asset. And that's why I'm here... to help them realize that bitcoin will die unless there are millions of transactions in the block chain daily.

[Synaptic]

Well I'm sorry that I have no interest in throughly explaining myself to someone who doesn't understand what I've already written. I hope that someone else wouldn't mind "translating" or elaborating for you.

Let's me see here...

It seems that in order to make OP's assertion valid, one must simply rephrase "The long term trend for bitcoin value is contraction, not expansion." as "The long term trend for fiat/bitcoin exchange rates is contraction, not expansion."

See, we no longer talking about bitcoin's value--only about the ability of market makers (like MtGox crew, etc) to maintain fiat/bitcoin current exchange rates for more than a month or two. OP is right, bitcoin's true value is WAY BELOW current exchange rates due to bitcoin not having any economy to call Home. So, stop worrying about the exchange rates that market makers are feeding you every day. Instead, start offering your bitcoins to merchants... Let's see if they do value BTC more than their local fiat currencies.

Absolutely. You've summarized quite accurately.

Now, my OPINION is that BTC will never find a use with the wider public because it's "advantages" are really quite meaningless to your average consumer, and CERTAINLY don't outweigh the glut of inconveniences inherent to it.

But what's not opinion is that the exchange rate is massively overvalued and is now headed down to a more accurate valuation as the hype continues to subside.

And by "not opinion", I'm assuming you meant that "it's a fact"?... If so, then I concur: all of the shelves with fiat currencies have been emptied out; only the shelves with overripened "bananas" still remain. If only bitcoin miners could survive on bananas, we'd be fine!

As far as BTC finding its use with the wider public, you and I are of a different opinion. You see, there's still hope that miners would eventually realize that without spending, there can never be a deflation in the deflationary "by design" economy. In order to get from 21,000,000BTCs (monetary base) to 2,100,000,000,000,000BTCs (expected total money supply), all of 21,000,000BTCs must be constantly exchanging hands (and the more hands the better). Miners hoarding bitcoins is equivalent to the central banks (in inflationary economies) raising the minimum reserve requirements of their member banks (or bitcoin users, in our case), thus reducing the available money supply.

As for bitcoin advantages, perhaps you should try looking at the bitcoin network as the best-in-class accounting system/ledger of who owes what to whom. For example, what stops one neighbor (a computer buff) from agreeing with another neighbor (a landscaping business owner) to exchange their skills/services for bitcoins, rather than for local fiat currency? Bitcoins are perfect for that type of contracts.

But the point is that fiat currencies aren't evil, serve their purpose just fine and have for many hundreds of years and likely will for a hundred years to come. Do some currencies hyper-inflate? Sure do, and then they correct and recover. And it's not the fact that a currency can be inflated that makes fiat "evil," it's that there are corrupt governments, and Bitcoin isn't going to do a single fucking thing to remedy the fact that people allow corrupt governments to exist.

In fact, the motherfucking BITCOIN economy/exchange is more corrupt than the US economy and the FED right now!

Fiat currencies are not evil, but their money supply is out of people's control. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a currency of the people by the people. Wouldn't you agree that voting with money is much more effective and efficient than voting with ballots or feet? (Money is fuel, so to speak.) If you control the money supply, you get to say what goes and what doesn't for whatever type of economy you are envisioning or trying to build. Having a choice is great, no?

Now, we just need to find a way to keep the market makers out of bitcoin economy... The stench is overbearing!

Negative. Every currency belonging to a democratically elected government is directly beholden to the populace. The point is that democratic populations are impotent and ineffectual at managing their own government and essentially deserve everything that they get coming to them.

Also, I'd much rather deal with the Dragon's Den on Wall Street and the Fat Cats in the Fed than the shithole excuses for monetary exchanges that belong to bitcoin and the Bitcoin Elite that hold the lions share of the entire currency among a tiny number of hands...

Don't delude yourself. Bitcoin is not a "currency" by the people for the people. It's a Multi-level Marketing scheme run by "Oligarchs" and market shysters.

Would have to disagree with you on one thing...

Currency belongs to those who issue it. So, if you let others (e.g. government, central bank, etc) to issue currency on your behalf, then it belongs to them, not you. In bitcoin's case, although it is the miners who are the issuers of BTC, everyone can set up their own mining rig at any time. The biggest hurdle that must be overcome is miners believing that bitcoin is an investment asset. And that's why I'm here... to help them realize that bitcoin will die unless there are millions of transactions in the block chain daily.

Dude, being able to just flip a switch and print your own money is exactly why we have regulated monetary organization in the first place. It doesn't fucking matter that a central authority prints the money, it's still a proof-of-work instrument.

The issue that idiots have with inflationary currency is that they put such a high value on their work relative to everyone else. They feel that since their work was worth X in year A that it should be worth exactly X in year B, or more.  The problem they don't agree with is when the supporting economy can't sustain that value of work it must be devalued to keep the economy functioning.

Furthermore, inflation is a economic INCENTIVE to innovate, invent, and expand.  That's why I believe people who stash away cash and bitch about inflation deserve to have their money divested from them, because I believe everyone should always be looking for ways to actively improve theirs and other's financial situations.

[BTConomist]

Would have to disagree with you on one thing...

Currency belongs to those who issue it. So, if you let others (e.g. government, central bank, etc) to issue currency on your behalf, then it belongs to them, not you. In bitcoin's case, although it is the miners who are the issuers of BTC, everyone can set up their own mining rig at any time. The biggest hurdle that must be overcome is miners believing that bitcoin is an investment asset. And that's why I'm here... to help them realize that bitcoin will die unless there are millions of transactions in the block chain daily.

Dude, being able to just flip a switch and print your own money is exactly why we have regulated monetary organization in the first place. It doesn't fucking matter that a central authority prints the money, it's still a proof-of-work instrument.

I'm not suggesting that printing money is the same thing as issuing it. In bitcoin economy, the amount of money that can be printed is set at 21,000,000BTCs. Miners (a.k.a. central banks) only have the power to issue that money into the economy by putting their own bitcoin reserves into circulation; then it becomes the job of bitcoin users (a.k.a. member banks, or just banks) to circulate that money around the economy. The more the miners or users hoard their bitcoins, the harder it becomes for the producers to generate sales (hence, they will jack up their prices, and the economy will experience an inflation). As you can see, if miners/users want the economy to grow, they must keep spending.

Furthermore, inflation is a economic INCENTIVE to innovate, invent, and expand.  That's why I believe people who stash away cash and bitch about inflation deserve to have their money divested from them, because I believe everyone should always be looking for ways to actively improve theirs and other's financial situations.

I'd say that inflation is more of an economic incentive to imitate than to innovate/invent. Think about it, why should one focus on coming up with something new knowing that by spending less today--in order to copy an already successful invention--one will be able to rip the benefit of higher prices down the road? Essentially, in the inflationary economy, the innovator/inventor's hand always feeds the copycats. The key driver of innovation/invention has always been and always will be a potential increase in the number of innovative competitors.

[antares]

I will pay 50 BTC to the person that locks up all those "I know all the world" people who obviously do not know "all the world" because if they did they figured that every second day another one opens another forum thread selling black paintings on how bad everything will be. I will pay another 50 BTC for the person that kills all of them!

(before someone comes to bad thoughts, I wont pay someone to kill someone else. That'd probably be illegal in most areas. However, some concentration camp playground where they could educate each other and let all others unharmed would be nice!)

[Yeti]

Hey, lonely caller in the desert! What is your agenda, anyways? If you don't believe that there's a future for Bitcoin, get the hell out with your money, sell your rig and waste your leisure time on other forums. But why keep "warning" everybody about the impending doom?!

I think this is probably a bit TOO conspiratorial, even for how full of shit the exchanges are.  What is for certain is that the people who run the exchanges, as well as the bitcoin aristocra....I mean "early adopters," are in total and complete control of the markets as long as people continue to buy into bitcoin.

Fortunately regular people are beginning to move past the hype and not throwing their paychecks into such a bullshit scheme anymore.

Aah, now I get it. You're just angry you got in "too late". But that's still assuming it's just a Ponzi scheme.

But did the underlying economy, people, families, businesses just disappear with them?  No.  They just started using a different currency.

That's why I don't care at all what happens to the Dollar, the Euro, whatever. Doesn't fucking matter. Life goes on. Cycles happen. Humanity learns, grows.

So why can't that "different currency" be Bitcoin? Oh, right. It's run by amateurs instead of pros. So how did the pros get pro? Right, they were born this way. I guess that's why the say "Bitcoin is still in its infancy". What you're predicting is, that the baby doesn't have a fridge's chance in Antarctica to survive and grow up. Call me naïve all you want, but I'd be rather that than pessimistic.

Yes, Bitcoin needs somewhat of an economy to back it. But how is that gonna happen? Typical chicken and egg problem. It has to start with speculation, because the speculators are the sort of people that are willing to take higher risks. And it is a very risky and volatile environment right now, I'll give you that. But for merchants to accept and deal in Bitcoin, all these things (exchanges, e-wallet services, escrow services, etc.) need to exist first and need to be secure first. The Mt. Gox hack will not happen again (at least not with Mt. Gox), people are learning from these very early mistakes and it costs a lot less now than to iron these issues out when it's bigger.

I see Bitcoin as an experiment and as such "failure is always an option". I will not have ruined my life if it fails and I will not be a millionaire if it succeeds. I'm just in it for the lulz. Why are you still here?

[BTConomist]

Cost of living is kept artificially high through various means.

And one of those means are loans: the lifeline of an inflationary "by design" economy. With that kind of setup, anyone can take out a loan to finance the implementation of original/innovative or imitative ideas (regardless of their usefulness to the society). Even the law may not be able to block that implementation (like when the government itself decides to take out a loan for some stupid idea). As the result, the society creates more waste than wealth. And when a given idea doesn't materialize (i.e. brings losses, not profits), all that excessive money supply (created through loans) can disappear in the blink of an eye (like it did in the fall of 2008).

With bitcoin, the game is different. There are no loans, just payments. Hence, if you can't convince others (right now that's mostly techies) to pay for the implementation of your idea, you will never get it off the ground. Beautiful setup, isn't it?

[error]

Capitalism cannot function in the high-energy, efficient, automated society we are headed to and that is why society must adapt. Bitcoin is just part of that transition. Cost of living is kept artificially high through various means. Most people have jobs which doesn't create much social value if any. Many jobs are just there to support the control systems that has been built during that last decades.

It sounds like you're talking about today's fascism, (aka "crony" capitalism) rather than pure capitalism. If you are holding a Bitcoin, you're a capitalist (and not a "crony").

With bitcoin, the game is different. There are no loans, just payments. Hence, if you can't convince others (right now that's mostly techies) to pay for the implementation of your idea, you will never get it off the ground. Beautiful setup, isn't it?

There's also savings, which in this context some people mistakenly call hoarding.