Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[BlackArrow Matt]

5). Tigerfree, are you the original owner? Did you get our email? Reply via personal message please so we can get this sorted out.

I got the e-mail, as I purchased 10 Lancelot's, but I thought I had missed the boat on getting any discounts.  Can I still get a discount?

Lancelot machines credit can be used against up to 30% of the amount on pre-orders or against up to 50% of the amount on orders. This credit has no cash value.

Regarding being a re-seller, please submit a ticket. Thanks!

[1714790340]

1714790340

[1714790340]

1714790340

[1714790340]

1714790340

[bobsag3]

heads up guys, My partner and I are planning on making a trip out to BA here in the next few weeks, just waiting to get our Visas back before we buy tickets.

[Minor Miner]

heads up guys, My partner and I are planning on making a trip out to BA here in the next few weeks, just waiting to get our Visas back before we buy tickets.

you can get a travel agent in LA to do all that work for you on visas.  they will want a ticket to issue the visa.  I know a guy that can get you two day turnaround.   you should get multiple entry (trust me on this).

[bobsag3]

heads up guys, My partner and I are planning on making a trip out to BA here in the next few weeks, just waiting to get our Visas back before we buy tickets.

you can get a travel agent in LA to do all that work for you on visas.  they will want a ticket to issue the visa.  I know a guy that can get you two day turnaround.   you should get multiple entry (trust me on this).

Planning on it, I have the letter of intro and everything from them . You mind PM'ing me the info for the visa agent? Would love to have someone more knowledgeable handling it.

[vs3]

For example - there are 40 pins that provide IOVDD and IOVSS - do you really have to have 40 pins for that? Do they have to deal with that high currents?

Well, they do need quite some lines I think... Rough estimation is that @0.85V and 0.5W/Ghs they would need to have ~59 amps (100ghs*.5W / 0.85V) per chip (not including losses and such and assuming 1 chip per 100ghs device).

And the other question - heat - what are the plans to deal with that?
Is the silicon going to be exposed (BFL-like) where users can attach a proper heatsink? Or is heat going to be dissipated through the PCB? If the second then bitfury-like packaging with a huge pad underneath the chip (and tons of vias on the pcb) will be better than a bunch of balls/pins.

Yes, heat is going to be substantial, but 50W is not too crazy for a chip with a large heatsink. Pictures of testing heatsinks have been posted as Carlton is mentioning.

On the first question - you probably haven't looked at the specs. There is a separate set of VDD/VSS pins for the CORE - that's where the main current goes. Those are okay to be as many as needed (but also don't have to be more than the necessary).
The IOVDD/IOVSS part is for the interface portion - where the chip communicates with other chips - there isn't any noticeable current going there. I'd be surprised if more than 50mA goes through those.

As for the heatsink - I'm not talking about what they plan to put in their retail products. The question is specifically to the chip's packaging. The final product design is a consequence of the chip design.
If the chip has exposed silicon - they you'll see heatsinks on top of the chip (e.g. like BFL). If the chip is meant the send all the heat via the PCB - then you'll see a large heatsink on the back of the PCB (e.g. like Avalon and Bitfury).
So - the question is which of the two options have they picked (and if that's been decided already).

[WynX]

For example - there are 40 pins that provide IOVDD and IOVSS - do you really have to have 40 pins for that? Do they have to deal with that high currents?

Well, they do need quite some lines I think... Rough estimation is that @0.85V and 0.5W/Ghs they would need to have ~59 amps (100ghs*.5W / 0.85V) per chip (not including losses and such and assuming 1 chip per 100ghs device).

And the other question - heat - what are the plans to deal with that?
Is the silicon going to be exposed (BFL-like) where users can attach a proper heatsink? Or is heat going to be dissipated through the PCB? If the second then bitfury-like packaging with a huge pad underneath the chip (and tons of vias on the pcb) will be better than a bunch of balls/pins.

Yes, heat is going to be substantial, but 50W is not too crazy for a chip with a large heatsink. Pictures of testing heatsinks have been posted as Carlton is mentioning.

On the first question - you probably haven't looked at the specs. There is a separate set of VDD/VSS pins for the CORE - that's where the main current goes. Those are okay to be as many as needed (but also don't have to be more than the necessary).
The IOVDD/IOVSS part is for the interface portion - where the chip communicates with other chips - there isn't any noticeable current going there. I'd be surprised if more than 50mA goes through those.

I briefly went through them, but you're right, they are only interface. I guess that the selection of the combination of nr of pins and number of on-die transistors for the package is always a tricky one since SHA256 takes huge amounts of power (in comparison to others). So maybe they have plenty of pins anyway because they selected the package on other criteria, hence the overkill on the IOVDD/IOVSS?

As for the heatsink - I'm not talking about what they plan to put in their retail products. The question is specifically to the chip's packaging. The final product design is a consequence of the chip design.
If the chip has exposed silicon - they you'll see heatsinks on top of the chip (e.g. like BFL). If the chip is meant the send all the heat via the PCB - then you'll see a large heatsink on the back of the PCB (e.g. like Avalon and Bitfury).
So - the question is which of the two options have they picked (and if that's been decided already).

Ah yes, that clarifies. I was looking for some data on the maximum recommended power which you can transfer through the PCB, yet didn't really find anything yet. I do feel that putting roughly 50W on 1 location on the PCB is really a demanding setup for a good thermal via design, especially with the already demanding pin configuration. So my best guess would be top-cooled dies...

[nosferatujeff]

Blackarrow asking customers if they will accept delay for switch to 20nm;

http://ecointalk.net/topic/289-20nm-or-28nm/

[merv77]

Blackarrow asking customers if they will accept delay for switch to 20nm;

http://ecointalk.net/topic/289-20nm-or-28nm/

this doesn't look good for end of feb 2014 delivery for 28nm if these questions being asked at this point of time.
and why hasn't this question been ask here?

[RoadStress]

Blackarrow asking customers if they will accept delay for switch to 20nm;

http://ecointalk.net/topic/289-20nm-or-28nm/

2. We will need to redo the whole backend (transistor placing and routing) of the chip which takes 2-3 months. This means that 20nm cannot be shipped by end of February. If not all our customers are switching to 20nm we will need to continue with 28 nm as well (which we intend to do as it is the safest way)

I propose that we should change the name from "Custom hardware" to "Delay fest"!

[mtbitcoin]

Blackarrow asking customers if they will accept delay for switch to 20nm;

http://ecointalk.net/topic/289-20nm-or-28nm/

I hope they are not seriously considering these. Any kind of delays (2-3 months) would suck

[Badonkadonk]

Blackarrow asking customers if they will accept delay for switch to 20nm;

http://ecointalk.net/topic/289-20nm-or-28nm/

I hope they are not seriously considering these. Any kind of delays (2-3 months) would suck

its allot better then having you hardware for 2-3 months, then it becomes obsolete

[r1senfa17h]

Blackarrow asking customers if they will accept delay for switch to 20nm;

http://ecointalk.net/topic/289-20nm-or-28nm/

I hope they are not seriously considering these. Any kind of delays (2-3 months) would suck

its allot better then having you hardware for 2-3 months, then it becomes obsolete

I disagree. It's better to have hardware that earns more BTC over its lifetime than hardware that remains profitable longer.

[Patzek]

Blackarrow asking customers if they will accept delay for switch to 20nm;

http://ecointalk.net/topic/289-20nm-or-28nm/

I hope they are not seriously considering these. Any kind of delays (2-3 months) would suck

its allot better then having you hardware for 2-3 months, then it becomes obsolete

I disagree. It's better to have hardware that earns more BTC over its lifetime than hardware that remains profitable longer.

with the rate the difficulty is rising, i'm afraid you are wrong..

[Badonkadonk]

just read the post on their forum, i agree. finish the 28nm
working on the 20nm in no rush while finishing the 28nm seems like the best idea.

[SirWizz]

Do one thing and do it well. They haven't taped out yet so it's not very likely that they will be able to deliver in Feb as they stated.

[whisper]

they can make another product pre-order and better dont touch 28nm promise date!

[r1senfa17h]

Blackarrow asking customers if they will accept delay for switch to 20nm;

http://ecointalk.net/topic/289-20nm-or-28nm/

I hope they are not seriously considering these. Any kind of delays (2-3 months) would suck

its allot better then having you hardware for 2-3 months, then it becomes obsolete

I disagree. It's better to have hardware that earns more BTC over its lifetime than hardware that remains profitable longer.

with the rate the difficulty is rising, i'm afraid you are wrong..

since 20nm will at best deliver about 2 or 3 months after the 28nm (and probably will be delayed) the 20nm should have already made it's ROI.

rule of thumb with miners:

If it can't have a ROI of 60 days it's not worth buying.

Did you mean to say that the 28nm would have already ROI'd? If so, then I agree. The 28nm version will make many more BTC over its shorter lifetime than a 20nm equivalent 2-3 months later. The high rate of difficulty increase is the key factor here.

[Syke]

3. No company has taped out with 20nm yet. If something goes wrong with TSMC's technology they will fix it but the chip will incur additional delay.

Exactly. 20nm process is still experimental. Do not delay a real 28nm product for it, at all.

[bobsag3]

3. No company has taped out with 20nm yet. If something goes wrong with TSMC's technology they will fix it but the chip will incur additional delay.

Exactly. 20nm process is still experimental. Do not delay a real 28nm product for it, at all.

Thats exactly what I said.

Also guys, if you did not see:
http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/preliminary-minion-datasheet.html

And my flight and accommodations have been made, I fly out Thursday the 5th to HK

[zurg]

Hey guys, I am highly considering an X3 unit for myself.
I placed an BTC order (waiting on BA) #207X
Anyone knows what batch that would fall under?

Thank you.