Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[blackarrow]

Your device (X-1 and X-3) is based on SHA-256 or own script?

Sha256

[1715502604]

1715502604

[blackarrow]

"if the competition drops the price below ours we will drop the prices as well and deliver more hash power."
Dont you think 3$/GH for Jan delivery is already lower than 2.69$/GH for March delivery?

$3 > $2.25

Nobody knows what the difficulty will be in Jan or Feb.
Nobody knows what the BTC exchange rate will be in Jan or Feb.

We know our costs and we'll go as low as possible.

[Pistachio]

I'm in for one X3 . Blackarrow delivered on the Lancelots, I believe they will deliver on their ASICs. Their timeline seems more realistic than others and KNC has proven that it can be done quickly if the process is well managed.

[af_newbie]

I'm in for one X3 . Blackarrow delivered on the Lancelots, I believe they will deliver on their ASICs. Their timeline seems more realistic than others and KNC has proven that it can be done quickly if the process is well managed.

Nobody is questioning BA integrity.  What the problem with pre-orders (not just BA) is that the price should be adjusted down every diff increase (10-14 days) by 30%.

$5,000.00
$3,500.00
$2,450.00
$1,715.00
$1,200.50
$840.35
$588.25
$411.77
$288.24
$201.77
$141.24
$98.87

Why? Because every 10-14 days your earnings get a 30% haircut.  Every 10-14 days!!!

Even with one month delivery you are losing 50% before you even receive the product.

But ALL manufacturers keep the price flat from the announcement to delivery.  That is why selling h/w is the only way to make money in "mining business" because you lock your profits in advance.

I don't see how you can get ROI from any pre-orders...Especially, with private pools that get hardware at cost.

[blackarrow]

I'm in for one X3 . Blackarrow delivered on the Lancelots, I believe they will deliver on their ASICs. Their timeline seems more realistic than others and KNC has proven that it can be done quickly if the process is well managed.

Nobody is questioning BA integrity.  What the problem with pre-orders (not just BA) is that the price should be adjusted down every diff increase (10-14 days) by 30%.

$5,000.00
$3,500.00
$2,450.00
$1,715.00
$1,200.50
$840.35
$588.25
$411.77
$288.24
$201.77
$141.24
$98.87

Why? Because every 10-14 days your earnings get a 30% haircut.  Every 10-14 days!!!

Even with one month delivery you are losing 50% before you even receive the product.

But ALL manufacturers keep the price flat from the announcement to delivery.  That is why selling h/w is the only way to make money in "mining business" because you lock your profits in advance.

I don't see how you can get ROI from any pre-orders...Especially, with private pools that get hardware at cost.

This is an endless topic: manufacturers prices vs. customers earnings on hardware. And from our point of view also it is pointless from a point. I have tried to explain in earlier messages. No matter the difficulty of a network or the rate of the currency, a manufacturer has its costs and it can go as low for unit price as it can go. From a threshold it cannot go lower. So the above table from retail price point of view has no relevance.

I am not saying that customers' opinion has no importance, please do not take me wrong. But as we said before, we go as low as we can. As probably everybody else. Some have higher costs than others and these costs reflect on retail price., regardless of network difficulty. I will have to quote another user who in one of his previous messages wrote (I quote from memory so I am sorry if not exact words): somehow Bitcoin currency and network will adapt.

What we try to do here at Black Arrow is to provide a great products at fair prices and the best services we can. We listen to our customers but unfortunately we cannot fulfil their wishes always.

[xyzzy099]

I'm in for one X3 . Blackarrow delivered on the Lancelots, I believe they will deliver on their ASICs. Their timeline seems more realistic than others and KNC has proven that it can be done quickly if the process is well managed.

Nobody is questioning BA integrity.  What the problem with pre-orders (not just BA) is that the price should be adjusted down every diff increase (10-14 days) by 30%.

$5,000.00
$3,500.00
$2,450.00
$1,715.00
$1,200.50
$840.35
$588.25
$411.77
$288.24
$201.77
$141.24
$98.87

Why? Because every 10-14 days your earnings get a 30% haircut.  Every 10-14 days!!!

Even with one month delivery you are losing 50% before you even receive the product.

But ALL manufacturers keep the price flat from the announcement to delivery.  That is why selling h/w is the only way to make money in "mining business" because you lock your profits in advance.

I don't see how you can get ROI from any pre-orders...Especially, with private pools that get hardware at cost.

This is an endless topic: manufacturers prices vs. customers earnings on hardware. And from our point of view also it is pointless from a point. I have tried to explain in earlier messages. No matter the difficulty of a network or the rate of the currency, a manufacturer has its costs and it can go as low for unit price as it can go. From a threshold it cannot go lower. So the above table from retail price point of view has no relevance.

I am not saying that customers' opinion has no importance, please do not take me wrong. But as we said before, we go as low as we can. As probably everybody else. Some have higher costs than others and these costs reflect on retail price., regardless of network difficulty. I will have to quote another user who in one of his previous messages wrote (I quote from memory so I am sorry if not exact words): somehow Bitcoin currency and network will adapt.

What we try to do here at Black Arrow is to provide a great products at fair prices and the best services we can. We listen to our customers but unfortunately we cannot fulfil their wishes always.

It is relevant information to buyers trying to make a rational purchase decision.  If the reality is that you cannot produce your product for a price that is economically viable, that is relevant market information.

[blackarrow]

It is relevant information to buyers trying to make a rational purchase decision.  If the reality is that you cannot produce your product for a price that is economically viable, that is relevant market information.

Maybe is my English. The information from the table, difficulty of the network and currency rates have no relevance when a manufacturer is calculating the retail prices. So throwing out those numbers will not trigger the hardware prices to go as low as customers' wishes.

Hope this clarify the statement.

[af_newbie]

It is relevant information to buyers trying to make a rational purchase decision.  If the reality is that you cannot produce your product for a price that is economically viable, that is relevant market information.

Maybe is my English. The information from the table, difficulty of the network and currency rates have no relevance when a manufacturer is calculating the retail prices. So throwing out those numbers will not trigger the hardware prices to go as low as customers' wishes.

Hope this clarify the statement.

I understand your position.  IMHO, guys like you will be priced out of business because some private pools in Eastern Europe and China are adding hashing power at cost.  ~$300/TH+power supplies.  You'll never be able to compete with that.

Sorry, but the numbers don't lie.  That is the reality.  

Don't get me wrong. I respect what you are trying to do, but the reality is that your 2TH product will not be worth $100 in Feb, 2014, if the difficulty progression continues at this rate.

Even KNC & Bitfury will have to slash prices on next batches.  Otherwise they will be mining with the hardware themselves and incurring negative ROI like the rest of us.

This is a race to the bottom.  The argument that bitcoin price and network hashing rate will adjust does not hold because people buy mining hardware without looking at the numbers.  If they did, the network hashing rate increase would be at 3-5%/yr (fiat inflation).  Will we see the correction in prices or network hashing power?  I don't think so.  As long as the chips can be cranked out at few cents and boards assembled at $15-20, the march will continue.

[xyzzy099]

It is relevant information to buyers trying to make a rational purchase decision.  If the reality is that you cannot produce your product for a price that is economically viable, that is relevant market information.

Maybe is my English. The information from the table, difficulty of the network and currency rates have no relevance when a manufacturer is calculating the retail prices. So throwing out those numbers will not trigger the hardware prices to go as low as customers' wishes.

Hope this clarify the statement.

I understand.  I was just pointing out that, while this table may not be relevant to your pricing decision, it IS very much relevant to your customer's buying decision.  Your statement - and I agree that it may just be a language fluency thing - appeared to state that it was just irrelevant in general.

[blackarrow]

This is a race to the bottom.  The argument that bitcoin price and network hashing rate will adjust does not hold because people buy mining hardware without looking at the numbers.  If they did, the network hashing rate increase would be at 3-5% (fiat inflation).  Will we see the correction in prices or network hashing power?  I don't think so.  As long as the chips can be cranked out at few cents and boards assembled at $15-20, the march will continue.

As long as... but... the chips cannot be cranked out at few cents, the board might be assembled at $15-$20 depending on the complexity of the board and the MOQ but I do not see a BOM taken in consideration (only if you think of how much a heatsink pipe or power supply costs) and I do not see a casing or the software design which comes with the product. Just to name few thinks that simply are obliterated from your statement, not cranked out at few cents.

And it was not an argument, it was merely an opinion.

[af_newbie]

This is a race to the bottom.  The argument that bitcoin price and network hashing rate will adjust does not hold because people buy mining hardware without looking at the numbers.  If they did, the network hashing rate increase would be at 3-5% (fiat inflation).  Will we see the correction in prices or network hashing power?  I don't think so.  As long as the chips can be cranked out at few cents and boards assembled at $15-20, the march will continue.

As long as... but... the chips cannot be cranked out at few cents, the board might be assembled at $15-$20 depending on the complexity of the board and the MOQ but I do not see a BOM taken in consideration (only if you think of how much a heatsink pipe or power supply costs) and I do not see a casing or the software design which comes with the product. Just to name few thinks that simply are obliterated from your statement, not cranked out at few cents.

And it was not an argument, it was merely an opinion.

Look at bitfury board for clues.

[OleOle]

I think BlackArrow has good intentions and bitcoin mining knowledge.

The problem here I think is he needs pre-sales to get the money to do the project.

The pre-sales model is a bit saturated even Cointerra has some boxes on the first batch to be sold and they are selling them to some customers like I for 10.000 US (list price was 14.000) even the Group Buys are not getting investors this days, in short words the pre-sales model is exhausted in my opinion.

I think this may work if BlackArrow do an approach like an IPO where some people invest and risk in their project for a fraction of the company.

Otherwise I feel will never happen.

Regards

TMC 

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, the pre-sales model is exhausted, it's also untrusted and hated. No prizes for guessing which companies are responsible for that. An IPO could be interesting if priced correctly and conducted professionally.

Good luck with the development.

[blackarrow]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, the pre-sales model is exhausted, it's also untrusted and hated. No prizes for guessing which companies are responsible for that. An IPO could be interesting if priced correctly and conducted professionally.

Good luck with the development.

As good as IPO might look we do not see it as a possibility. Also it is quite costly to list the company and it will require resources which we do not have at our disposal at the moment (time and personnel).

Thank you for the wishes.

[Biomech]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, the pre-sales model is exhausted, it's also untrusted and hated. No prizes for guessing which companies are responsible for that. An IPO could be interesting if priced correctly and conducted professionally.

Good luck with the development.

As good as IPO might look we do not see it as a possibility. Also it is quite costly to list the company and it will require resources which we do not have at our disposal at the moment (time and personnel).

Thank you for the wishes.

I will accept you at your word for the first round, as setting up an IPO has a lot of costs associated with it. But, if you are successful with this round, it might very well be worth looking into for future development.

What I am seeing in the ASIC market in general (not real familiar with your company, so if I totally miss the mark, either ignore me or correct me ) is that they are, do to the novelty and speed of the model, unable to secure outside funding in any great way. Thus, no room for absorbing some loss to get the next more efficient process rolling. So if you could get past that point, an IPO might very well give you the kind of maneuvering room you need to become a big player.

Just my 2 cents worth. I'm not pre ordering anything at the moment from anybody. I actually think your pricing model is quite fair. If I had the money to bet, I'd bet on your company and hedge it with KNC, who have largely proven themselves. The community seems to behind you on trust as well. I have heard good things about your FPGA units from a number of people who had no reason to lie to me. Unfortunately, I got into the game just after that was relevant

Best of luck, and if my fortunes change, I might just order a couple units from ya.

[Kaega]

While I do not have the 4.5k to risk on anyones 2TH machines, I did order one 100GH. It won't rack in mass coins, but should do ok in terms of price per GH/s.

[blackarrow]

Black Arrow announces its first US reseller. Miner Hosting LLC and MinerSource.NET have signed an agreement with Black Arrow to resell their products within the USA and will be reselling the Prospero line and Minion ASICs. For a direct link to their online shop please visit our latest News article on our website.

[eZc]

Is there anyone already making PCBs and just buys ASICs in order to further reduce costs?

[DyslexicZombei]

Is there anyone already making PCBs and just buys ASICs in order to further reduce costs?

Yes, bobsag3 and our at-cost Miners Cooperative have exclusive below-cost access to Black Arrow's Bullet Run featuring Bitfury chips over 3 months earlier than the official Prospero Launch in late February.

bobsag3 has essentially cut out the middleman ("the store") by offering our at-cost (and below-cost) co-op first access to Black Arrow's bullet run, because we don't mark up our shares, and any profit made by the Co-op's GB Coordinators during fundraising is miniscule and incidental, by purposeful design.

Thanks to this offer I think we have a couple of the best GB forum deals around (Round 8 Bitmine and Round 10 Black Arrow w/ Bitfury).


Here's our Exclusive 40% off Black Arrow Bullet Run Group Buy for those interested in getting early access to Black Arrow miners (running Bitfury instead of Minion chips):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=313065.0
http://www.dzminercoop.com/?product=r10-40-black-arrow-bullet-run-with-bitfury
Black Arrow's confirmation post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=311465.msg3357314#msg3357314

This isn't a pre-order. This batch is in production and bobsag3 posted updated pics from the assembly facility this morning.

The Black Arrow bullet run boards are under assembly and guaranteed to be shipping by November 1 or your money/BTC back!

Even in a mass refund scenario: You *still* get to keep the hashrate and still get 1 month free hosting at our professional insured ASIC colocation hosting facility I helped design just for ASIC miners with bobsag3 (I'm a pro network engineer). Bob currently has the world's lowest rates for professional ASIC hosting, bar none. The funds for this aren't even going to be touched until the boards are hashing.

YMMV, but I believe this to be one of the best, if not the best, deal available at the moment if you're set on buying ASIC hardware.

[Carlton Banks]

question for Black Arrow:

How much guarantee can you give that your devices will function with P2Pool out of the box? Are you collaborating with the mining software community (ckolivas, LukeJr, Kano etc) to ensure the driver behaviour is good for P2Pool with this initial batch of devices?

[blackarrow]

question for Black Arrow:

How much guarantee can you give that your devices will function with P2Pool out of the box? Are you collaborating with the mining software community (ckolivas, LukeJr, Kano etc) to ensure the driver behaviour is good for P2Pool with this initial batch of devices?

We are cooperating with cgminer team. Our devices will work with stratum protocol and will run a custom version of cgminer.