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Author Topic: Why is this forum considered terrible by our development overlords?  (Read 5099 times)
Anonymous
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July 19, 2011, 12:15:10 AM
 #1

They have disassociated us with the front page. The obvious question is why?

We are who we are: the main users of the Bitcoin software and, frankly, libertarian views, excessive speculation and such comes with it.

Why resent nature?
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There are several different types of Bitcoin clients. The most secure are full nodes like Bitcoin-Qt, which will follow the rules of the network no matter what miners do. Even if every miner decided to create 1000 bitcoins per block, full nodes would stick to the rules and reject those blocks.
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July 19, 2011, 12:18:08 AM
 #2

I think the idea of the main page is to inform newbies that don't know anything about bitcoin - we used to be part of that. Between the "RALLY!!!" vs "CRASH!!!" spam and the draconian newbie whitelisting rules we don't really fulfill that obligation any more...

Anonymous
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July 19, 2011, 12:21:10 AM
 #3

I think the idea of the main page is to inform newbies that don't know anything about bitcoin - we used to be part of that. Between the "RALLY!!!" vs "CRASH!!!" spam and the draconian newbie whitelisting rules we don't really fulfill that obligation any more...
That's not to say the newbie section is excellent for basic support.
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July 19, 2011, 12:25:28 AM
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I think the idea of the main page is to inform newbies that don't know anything about bitcoin - we used to be part of that. Between the "RALLY!!!" vs "CRASH!!!" spam and the draconian newbie whitelisting rules we don't really fulfill that obligation any more...
That's not to say the newbie section is excellent for basic support.

I try to head over there from time to time, see what questions I can answer, what good I can do - I mean the more people there are using this thing the better it is for all of us with BTC in our wallets (adoption tends to drive price) but honestly there's just a lot of madness and drama here that, reasonably, the devs don't want associated with bitcoin officially.

Of course a heavier hand by a better-staffed mod team would be the ideal answer, but we don't always have the resources for ideal, do we?

Anonymous
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July 19, 2011, 12:27:58 AM
 #5

I don't see what needs to be moderated. Sure there are a lot of unpopular opinions and attitudes but, honestly, what will be gained by revoking these people of their voices? Is that really ethical?
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July 19, 2011, 12:32:52 AM
 #6

I don't see what needs to be moderated. Sure there are a lot of unpopular opinions and attitudes but, honestly, what will be gained by revoking these people of their voices? Is that really ethical?

I'm all for free speech, but I'm also a big fan of "time and place" and if folks can't be reasonable about choosing time and place, mods are there to choose it for them. For example, I'd rather not browse the forum at work and find very NSFW pics of a newly-bitcoin-tattooed woman on my screen. Not that I'm against nudity or anything, there are plenty of NSFW pics on my hard drive at home, but NSFW without a warning is NOT cool.

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July 19, 2011, 01:22:41 AM
 #7

I think the idea of the main page is to inform newbies that don't know anything about bitcoin - we used to be part of that. Between the "RALLY!!!" vs "CRASH!!!" spam and the draconian newbie whitelisting rules we don't really fulfill that obligation any more...

Then who/what does fulfill that obligation?... Clearly not a search engine.

Why not just remove the newbie restrictions and create a new category (call it "For first time visitors") that's heavily moderated by seasoned bitcoiners to make sure that newbies receive a proper introduction to bitcoin. Problem solved.

Bitcoins are earned, not traded! If you plan on hoarding BTC, you're on my target list. (And yes, it is possible to swim in BTC.)

Don't give me that Bull... I'm one of those honey eating Bears that the bees hope to never meet again... Viva la BTC!!!
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July 19, 2011, 01:25:33 AM
 #8

I don't see what needs to be moderated. Sure there are a lot of unpopular opinions and attitudes but, honestly, what will be gained by revoking these people of their voices? Is that really ethical?

I'm all for free speech, but I'm also a big fan of "time and place" and if folks can't be reasonable about choosing time and place, mods are there to choose it for them. For example, I'd rather not browse the forum at work and find very NSFW pics of a newly-bitcoin-tattooed woman on my screen. Not that I'm against nudity or anything, there are plenty of NSFW pics on my hard drive at home, but NSFW without a warning is NOT cool.

Isn't it too soon to reach out to the general public? C'mon, most miners still treat bitcoin as a commodity, destined for $billions.

Bitcoins are earned, not traded! If you plan on hoarding BTC, you're on my target list. (And yes, it is possible to swim in BTC.)

Don't give me that Bull... I'm one of those honey eating Bears that the bees hope to never meet again... Viva la BTC!!!
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July 19, 2011, 01:35:38 AM
 #9

I don't see what needs to be moderated. Sure there are a lot of unpopular opinions and attitudes but, honestly, what will be gained by revoking these people of their voices? Is that really ethical?

I'm all for free speech, but I'm also a big fan of "time and place" and if folks can't be reasonable about choosing time and place, mods are there to choose it for them. For example, I'd rather not browse the forum at work and find very NSFW pics of a newly-bitcoin-tattooed woman on my screen. Not that I'm against nudity or anything, there are plenty of NSFW pics on my hard drive at home, but NSFW without a warning is NOT cool.

Isn't it too soon to reach out to the general public? C'mon, most miners still treat bitcoin as a commodity, destined for $billions.

Oh, I get it... We're witnessing a speculation play here. Buy, Buy, Buy! LOL
Perhaps the coverage of bitcoin by CNN Money had something to do with the decision?

Bitcoins are earned, not traded! If you plan on hoarding BTC, you're on my target list. (And yes, it is possible to swim in BTC.)

Don't give me that Bull... I'm one of those honey eating Bears that the bees hope to never meet again... Viva la BTC!!!
Anonymous
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July 19, 2011, 01:44:29 AM
 #10

I don't see what needs to be moderated. Sure there are a lot of unpopular opinions and attitudes but, honestly, what will be gained by revoking these people of their voices? Is that really ethical?

I'm all for free speech, but I'm also a big fan of "time and place" and if folks can't be reasonable about choosing time and place, mods are there to choose it for them. For example, I'd rather not browse the forum at work and find very NSFW pics of a newly-bitcoin-tattooed woman on my screen. Not that I'm against nudity or anything, there are plenty of NSFW pics on my hard drive at home, but NSFW without a warning is NOT cool.

Definitely. Now this isn't a matter of free speech in this case but pollution.
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July 19, 2011, 06:35:59 AM
 #11

You can see the debate on the mailing list archive.

Bitcoin Core developer [PGP] Warning: For most, coin loss is a larger risk than coin theft. A disk can die any time. Regularly back up your wallet through FileBackup Wallet to an external storage or the (encrypted!) cloud. Use a separate offline wallet for storing larger amounts.
Chris Acheson
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July 19, 2011, 06:56:04 AM
 #12

It's considered terrible by the core devs because it's a fucking cesspool, and they are sane enough to realize this.  This place is full of political kooks who don't know when to keep their mouths shut, trolls looking for lulzy interactions with said kooks, and "double your BTC!" hucksters.  It's all presided over by a mostly "laissez-faire" moderation team and an absentee admin.  The place looks really bad to outsiders, and it's showing no signs of doing anything except getting progressively worse.

I get the political angle, but it's not worth ruining Bitcoin's public image in order to push your ideology.  We need to be tactful about how we present it.  For a general audience, that means you have to at least pretend that Bitcoin is politically neutral.  Save the "it's going to bring the revolution" stuff for your libertarian friends.
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July 19, 2011, 10:02:07 AM
 #13

They have disassociated us with the front page. The obvious question is why?
Because they want to reduce the chance that the mainstream associates bitcoins with internet kooks like us, and particularly extremists like you. It will never really take off if they do.
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July 19, 2011, 01:07:05 PM
 #14

The (fairly hostile) mailing list discussion is here:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CAJNQ0ssAgx%2BFS_LZmEDRXsdKpC4M5xaegJh4%2BvGv0Au%2BCmi6Dw%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=bitcoin-development
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July 19, 2011, 01:50:38 PM
 #15

By leaving it alone, some groups will eventually dissociate themselves from this forum by establishing their own gatherings elsewhere. But by not letting newcomers to see the true face of an already established bitcoin community, you will be risking to alienate those who by accident stumble on a group they have nothing in common, thus making them draw wrong conclusions about bitcoin's future. So, instead of cleaning up the forum from certain groups but not others, why not just setup http://blog.bitcoin.org, and then allow only select individuals (perhaps one from each group) to seed topics for all to discuss?

It's Twitter that one should be worried about: IRC for the general public.

Bitcoins are earned, not traded! If you plan on hoarding BTC, you're on my target list. (And yes, it is possible to swim in BTC.)

Don't give me that Bull... I'm one of those honey eating Bears that the bees hope to never meet again... Viva la BTC!!!
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July 19, 2011, 02:08:11 PM
 #16

As I've said before, the enemy of bitcoin is it's own community. People won't want to use bitcoin if they only remember that the people who most obviously use it are the ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists. This is why I assume they've taken this forum off the front page. Bitcoin isn't going to succeed if people look at it and go "hey isn't that that internet money that only crazy people use?".

I should note that not everyone who uses bitcoin fits that criteria but they're really the only people notable enough to be memorable.
BTConomist
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July 19, 2011, 02:22:24 PM
 #17

As I've said before, the enemy of bitcoin is it's own community. People won't want to use bitcoin if they only remember that the people who most obviously use it are the ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists. This is why I assume they've taken this forum off the front page. Bitcoin isn't going to succeed if people look at it and go "hey isn't that that internet money that only crazy people use?".

I should note that not everyone who uses bitcoin fits that criteria but they're really the only people notable enough to be memorable.

I doubt that one can move bitcoin into the mainstream just like that: i.e. by setting up a "proper" communication channel. It's best to focus on moving the mainstream into bitcoin, and by that I mean developing communities that the general public cannot have access to unless they have bitcoins in their hands. The general public has no desire to replace fiat currency establishments (e.g. PayPal, MasterCard, etc.) with an establishment run and maintained by the geeks, especially when that establishment has nothing to show for itself other than doing things for the lulz (nothing against LulzSec). The ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists are the only ones interested in that kind of stuff, so I'd say direct your focus at them to see bitcoin grow in strength (you'll need it to withstand the attacks from its most ferocious competitors). Does it make sense?

Bitcoins are earned, not traded! If you plan on hoarding BTC, you're on my target list. (And yes, it is possible to swim in BTC.)

Don't give me that Bull... I'm one of those honey eating Bears that the bees hope to never meet again... Viva la BTC!!!
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July 19, 2011, 02:39:06 PM
 #18

As I've said before, the enemy of bitcoin is it's own community. People won't want to use bitcoin if they only remember that the people who most obviously use it are the ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists. This is why I assume they've taken this forum off the front page. Bitcoin isn't going to succeed if people look at it and go "hey isn't that that internet money that only crazy people use?".

I should note that not everyone who uses bitcoin fits that criteria but they're really the only people notable enough to be memorable.

I doubt that one can move bitcoin into the mainstream just like that: i.e. by setting up a "proper" communication channel. It's best to focus on moving the mainstream into bitcoin, and by that I mean developing communities that the general public cannot have access to unless they have bitcoins in their hands. The general public has no desire to replace fiat currency establishments (e.g. PayPal, MasterCard, etc.) with an establishment run and maintained by the geeks, especially when that establishment has nothing to show for itself other than doing things for the lulz (nothing against LulzSec). The ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists are the only ones interested in that kind of stuff, so I'd say direct your focus at them to see bitcoin grow in strength (you'll need it to withstand the attacks from its most ferocious competitors). Does it make sense?

Example of communities centered around bitcoin: MtGox

Although I don't like its practice of bypassing the bitcoin block chain when trading BTC for fiat currencies, nevertheless it makes for an interesting environment, capable of giving one an adrenaline rush like no other (just ask GeniuSxBoY; also see here & here).

Bitcoins are earned, not traded! If you plan on hoarding BTC, you're on my target list. (And yes, it is possible to swim in BTC.)

Don't give me that Bull... I'm one of those honey eating Bears that the bees hope to never meet again... Viva la BTC!!!
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July 19, 2011, 04:00:33 PM
 #19

And don't forget the most effective/realistic approach: spend bitcoin to save/grow bitcoin. Basically, pay someone (e.g. bitcoin fans, etc) to come up with a better forum (in terms of usability/accessibility/whatever) or something completely new. That's what will give bitcoin its value, not some cheap marketing tactics that have no chance in hell to go against even the smallest of fiat currency establishments. Own your creation (bitcoin)... Show it can be used as a currency, or shut the rigs down!

That's my 2 marketing/economics BTCents.

Bitcoins are earned, not traded! If you plan on hoarding BTC, you're on my target list. (And yes, it is possible to swim in BTC.)

Don't give me that Bull... I'm one of those honey eating Bears that the bees hope to never meet again... Viva la BTC!!!
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July 19, 2011, 04:24:28 PM
 #20

The ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists are the only ones interested in that kind of stuff, so I'd say direct your focus at them to see bitcoin grow in strength (you'll need it to withstand the attacks from its most ferocious competitors). Does it make sense?

There are plenty of normal people interested in and curious about Bitcoin.  They go looking for more information, end up here, and start to have second thoughts because of the political kookery and general idiocy that they find here.

There's no reason that the Bitcoin project should have an official libertarian/anarchist/conspiracy theorist/right-winger forum.  If you want to promote Bitcoin to those groups, do it on their forums.

And don't forget the most effective/realistic approach: spend bitcoin to save/grow bitcoin. Basically, pay someone (e.g. bitcoin fans, etc) to come up with a better forum (in terms of usability/accessibility/whatever) or something completely new.

Don't need money, just need more participants.

On the other hand, if I could pay to have forum.bitcoin.org shut down right now, I'd do it.
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