Why is this forum considered terrible by our development overlords?

[Anonymous]

They have disassociated us with the front page. The obvious question is why?

We are who we are: the main users of the Bitcoin software and, frankly, libertarian views, excessive speculation and such comes with it.

Why resent nature?

[1715594930]

1715594930

[1715594930]

1715594930

[1715594930]

1715594930

[enmaku]

I think the idea of the main page is to inform newbies that don't know anything about bitcoin - we used to be part of that. Between the "RALLY!!!" vs "CRASH!!!" spam and the draconian newbie whitelisting rules we don't really fulfill that obligation any more...

[Anonymous]

I think the idea of the main page is to inform newbies that don't know anything about bitcoin - we used to be part of that. Between the "RALLY!!!" vs "CRASH!!!" spam and the draconian newbie whitelisting rules we don't really fulfill that obligation any more...

That's not to say the newbie section is excellent for basic support.

[enmaku]

I think the idea of the main page is to inform newbies that don't know anything about bitcoin - we used to be part of that. Between the "RALLY!!!" vs "CRASH!!!" spam and the draconian newbie whitelisting rules we don't really fulfill that obligation any more...

That's not to say the newbie section is excellent for basic support.

I try to head over there from time to time, see what questions I can answer, what good I can do - I mean the more people there are using this thing the better it is for all of us with BTC in our wallets (adoption tends to drive price) but honestly there's just a lot of madness and drama here that, reasonably, the devs don't want associated with bitcoin officially.

Of course a heavier hand by a better-staffed mod team would be the ideal answer, but we don't always have the resources for ideal, do we?

[Anonymous]

I don't see what needs to be moderated. Sure there are a lot of unpopular opinions and attitudes but, honestly, what will be gained by revoking these people of their voices? Is that really ethical?

[enmaku]

I don't see what needs to be moderated. Sure there are a lot of unpopular opinions and attitudes but, honestly, what will be gained by revoking these people of their voices? Is that really ethical?

I'm all for free speech, but I'm also a big fan of "time and place" and if folks can't be reasonable about choosing time and place, mods are there to choose it for them. For example, I'd rather not browse the forum at work and find very NSFW pics of a newly-bitcoin-tattooed woman on my screen. Not that I'm against nudity or anything, there are plenty of NSFW pics on my hard drive at home, but NSFW without a warning is NOT cool.

[BTConomist]

I think the idea of the main page is to inform newbies that don't know anything about bitcoin - we used to be part of that. Between the "RALLY!!!" vs "CRASH!!!" spam and the draconian newbie whitelisting rules we don't really fulfill that obligation any more...

Then who/what does fulfill that obligation?... Clearly not a search engine.

Why not just remove the newbie restrictions and create a new category (call it "For first time visitors") that's heavily moderated by seasoned bitcoiners to make sure that newbies receive a proper introduction to bitcoin. Problem solved.

[BTConomist]

I don't see what needs to be moderated. Sure there are a lot of unpopular opinions and attitudes but, honestly, what will be gained by revoking these people of their voices? Is that really ethical?

I'm all for free speech, but I'm also a big fan of "time and place" and if folks can't be reasonable about choosing time and place, mods are there to choose it for them. For example, I'd rather not browse the forum at work and find very NSFW pics of a newly-bitcoin-tattooed woman on my screen. Not that I'm against nudity or anything, there are plenty of NSFW pics on my hard drive at home, but NSFW without a warning is NOT cool.

Isn't it too soon to reach out to the general public? C'mon, most miners still treat bitcoin as a commodity, destined for $billions.

[BTConomist]

I don't see what needs to be moderated. Sure there are a lot of unpopular opinions and attitudes but, honestly, what will be gained by revoking these people of their voices? Is that really ethical?

I'm all for free speech, but I'm also a big fan of "time and place" and if folks can't be reasonable about choosing time and place, mods are there to choose it for them. For example, I'd rather not browse the forum at work and find very NSFW pics of a newly-bitcoin-tattooed woman on my screen. Not that I'm against nudity or anything, there are plenty of NSFW pics on my hard drive at home, but NSFW without a warning is NOT cool.

Isn't it too soon to reach out to the general public? C'mon, most miners still treat bitcoin as a commodity, destined for $billions.

Oh, I get it... We're witnessing a speculation play here. Buy, Buy, Buy! LOL
Perhaps the coverage of bitcoin by CNN Money had something to do with the decision?

[Anonymous]

I don't see what needs to be moderated. Sure there are a lot of unpopular opinions and attitudes but, honestly, what will be gained by revoking these people of their voices? Is that really ethical?

I'm all for free speech, but I'm also a big fan of "time and place" and if folks can't be reasonable about choosing time and place, mods are there to choose it for them. For example, I'd rather not browse the forum at work and find very NSFW pics of a newly-bitcoin-tattooed woman on my screen. Not that I'm against nudity or anything, there are plenty of NSFW pics on my hard drive at home, but NSFW without a warning is NOT cool.

Definitely. Now this isn't a matter of free speech in this case but pollution.

[wumpus]

You can see the debate on the mailing list archive.

[Chris Acheson]

It's considered terrible by the core devs because it's a fucking cesspool, and they are sane enough to realize this.  This place is full of political kooks who don't know when to keep their mouths shut, trolls looking for lulzy interactions with said kooks, and "double your BTC!" hucksters.  It's all presided over by a mostly "laissez-faire" moderation team and an absentee admin.  The place looks really bad to outsiders, and it's showing no signs of doing anything except getting progressively worse.

I get the political angle, but it's not worth ruining Bitcoin's public image in order to push your ideology.  We need to be tactful about how we present it.  For a general audience, that means you have to at least pretend that Bitcoin is politically neutral.  Save the "it's going to bring the revolution" stuff for your libertarian friends.

[Grinder]

They have disassociated us with the front page. The obvious question is why?

Because they want to reduce the chance that the mainstream associates bitcoins with internet kooks like us, and particularly extremists like you. It will never really take off if they do.

[ribuck]

The (fairly hostile) mailing list discussion is here:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CAJNQ0ssAgx%2BFS_LZmEDRXsdKpC4M5xaegJh4%2BvGv0Au%2BCmi6Dw%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=bitcoin-development

[BTConomist]

By leaving it alone, some groups will eventually dissociate themselves from this forum by establishing their own gatherings elsewhere. But by not letting newcomers to see the true face of an already established bitcoin community, you will be risking to alienate those who by accident stumble on a group they have nothing in common, thus making them draw wrong conclusions about bitcoin's future. So, instead of cleaning up the forum from certain groups but not others, why not just setup http://blog.bitcoin.org, and then allow only select individuals (perhaps one from each group) to seed topics for all to discuss?

It's Twitter that one should be worried about: IRC for the general public.

[onesalt]

As I've said before, the enemy of bitcoin is it's own community. People won't want to use bitcoin if they only remember that the people who most obviously use it are the ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists. This is why I assume they've taken this forum off the front page. Bitcoin isn't going to succeed if people look at it and go "hey isn't that that internet money that only crazy people use?".

I should note that not everyone who uses bitcoin fits that criteria but they're really the only people notable enough to be memorable.

[BTConomist]

As I've said before, the enemy of bitcoin is it's own community. People won't want to use bitcoin if they only remember that the people who most obviously use it are the ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists. This is why I assume they've taken this forum off the front page. Bitcoin isn't going to succeed if people look at it and go "hey isn't that that internet money that only crazy people use?".

I should note that not everyone who uses bitcoin fits that criteria but they're really the only people notable enough to be memorable.

I doubt that one can move bitcoin into the mainstream just like that: i.e. by setting up a "proper" communication channel. It's best to focus on moving the mainstream into bitcoin, and by that I mean developing communities that the general public cannot have access to unless they have bitcoins in their hands. The general public has no desire to replace fiat currency establishments (e.g. PayPal, MasterCard, etc.) with an establishment run and maintained by the geeks, especially when that establishment has nothing to show for itself other than doing things for the lulz (nothing against LulzSec). The ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists are the only ones interested in that kind of stuff, so I'd say direct your focus at them to see bitcoin grow in strength (you'll need it to withstand the attacks from its most ferocious competitors). Does it make sense?

[BTConomist]

As I've said before, the enemy of bitcoin is it's own community. People won't want to use bitcoin if they only remember that the people who most obviously use it are the ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists. This is why I assume they've taken this forum off the front page. Bitcoin isn't going to succeed if people look at it and go "hey isn't that that internet money that only crazy people use?".

I should note that not everyone who uses bitcoin fits that criteria but they're really the only people notable enough to be memorable.

I doubt that one can move bitcoin into the mainstream just like that: i.e. by setting up a "proper" communication channel. It's best to focus on moving the mainstream into bitcoin, and by that I mean developing communities that the general public cannot have access to unless they have bitcoins in their hands. The general public has no desire to replace fiat currency establishments (e.g. PayPal, MasterCard, etc.) with an establishment run and maintained by the geeks, especially when that establishment has nothing to show for itself other than doing things for the lulz (nothing against LulzSec). The ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists are the only ones interested in that kind of stuff, so I'd say direct your focus at them to see bitcoin grow in strength (you'll need it to withstand the attacks from its most ferocious competitors). Does it make sense?

Example of communities centered around bitcoin: MtGox

Although I don't like its practice of bypassing the bitcoin block chain when trading BTC for fiat currencies, nevertheless it makes for an interesting environment, capable of giving one an adrenaline rush like no other (just ask GeniuSxBoY; also see here & here).

[BTConomist]

And don't forget the most effective/realistic approach: spend bitcoin to save/grow bitcoin. Basically, pay someone (e.g. bitcoin fans, etc) to come up with a better forum (in terms of usability/accessibility/whatever) or something completely new. That's what will give bitcoin its value, not some cheap marketing tactics that have no chance in hell to go against even the smallest of fiat currency establishments. Own your creation (bitcoin)... Show it can be used as a currency, or shut the rigs down!

That's my 2 marketing/economics BTCents.

[Chris Acheson]

The ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists are the only ones interested in that kind of stuff, so I'd say direct your focus at them to see bitcoin grow in strength (you'll need it to withstand the attacks from its most ferocious competitors). Does it make sense?

There are plenty of normal people interested in and curious about Bitcoin.  They go looking for more information, end up here, and start to have second thoughts because of the political kookery and general idiocy that they find here.

There's no reason that the Bitcoin project should have an official libertarian/anarchist/conspiracy theorist/right-winger forum.  If you want to promote Bitcoin to those groups, do it on their forums.

And don't forget the most effective/realistic approach: spend bitcoin to save/grow bitcoin. Basically, pay someone (e.g. bitcoin fans, etc) to come up with a better forum (in terms of usability/accessibility/whatever) or something completely new.

Don't need money, just need more participants.

On the other hand, if I could pay to have forum.bitcoin.org shut down right now, I'd do it.

[RodeoX]

Do we really want this forum to be the first impression of bitcoin? It is not what it used to be. Atlas, you will certainly remember when the threads were on topic and well written. Now one has to sift through countless silly topics to find serious thought.

[BTConomist]

The ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists are the only ones interested in that kind of stuff, so I'd say direct your focus at them to see bitcoin grow in strength (you'll need it to withstand the attacks from its most ferocious competitors). Does it make sense?

There are plenty of normal people interested in and curious about Bitcoin.  They go looking for more information, end up here, and start to have second thoughts because of the political kookery and general idiocy that they find here.

There's no reason that the Bitcoin project should have an official libertarian/anarchist/conspiracy theorist/right-winger forum.  If you want to promote Bitcoin to those groups, do it on their forums.

Interest/curiosity does not imply approval/acceptance.

In marketing, it's all about positioning. You can't go after different market segments all at once, because to do so would require different value propositions of the same or maybe even different versions of bitcoin (or even a completely different currency).

Hence, in its current raw form, bitcoin has a much better chance of being successfully positioned for "libertarian/anarchist/conspiracy theorist/right-winger" crowds that may not be as "normal" as the general public, but nonetheless represent its best first-time customers, whose approval/acceptance of bitcoin as a medium of exchange will drive the creation of bitcoin economy. And once bitcoin has an economy to call "Home", it will be possible to position it for the general public's approval/acceptance.

Now, what everyone (starting with the bitcoin developers) needs to worry about is exchanges like Mt.Gox properly reporting their customers' profits to the authorities, because any foolishness in that aspect could leave bitcoin without any customers.

And don't forget the most effective/realistic approach: spend bitcoin to save/grow bitcoin. Basically, pay someone (e.g. bitcoin fans, etc) to come up with a better forum (in terms of usability/accessibility/whatever) or something completely new.

Don't need money, just need more participants.

On the other hand, if I could pay to have forum.bitcoin.org shut down right now, I'd do it.

I wasn't talking about paying in $ or other fiat currencies. I was talking about paying in bitcoins only... It is a currency, right?

[BTConomist]

Now one has to sift through countless silly topics to find serious thought.

Is it because those whose thoughts had mattered suddenly decided not to engage the new comers for the sake of not having to repeat themselves? Start engaging the new comers, instead of referring to them as kids/trolls, and the problems will go away.

[onesalt]

The ultraright-wing, libertarian, anarchist conspiracy theorists are the only ones interested in that kind of stuff, so I'd say direct your focus at them to see bitcoin grow in strength (you'll need it to withstand the attacks from its most ferocious competitors). Does it make sense?

There are plenty of normal people interested in and curious about Bitcoin.  They go looking for more information, end up here, and start to have second thoughts because of the political kookery and general idiocy that they find here.

There's no reason that the Bitcoin project should have an official libertarian/anarchist/conspiracy theorist/right-winger forum.  If you want to promote Bitcoin to those groups, do it on their forums.

And don't forget the most effective/realistic approach: spend bitcoin to save/grow bitcoin. Basically, pay someone (e.g. bitcoin fans, etc) to come up with a better forum (in terms of usability/accessibility/whatever) or something completely new.

Don't need money, just need more participants.

On the other hand, if I could pay to have forum.bitcoin.org shut down right now, I'd do it.

Yeah, I'm seriously regretting trying to post here now, you post something that doesn't fit with someone elses worldview and they start a massive fucking witchhunt for "trolls" and label you as one. See this thread for a pretty good indication. I post a thread pointing out that people are using viruses to build botnets solely to mine bitcoins, which is very quickly going to get it banned by governments and suchlike, and people just label you as a troll despite evidence from these very forums.

[Chris Acheson]

Yeah, I'm seriously regretting trying to post here now, you post something that doesn't fit with someone elses worldview and they start a massive fucking witchhunt for "trolls" and label you as one. See this thread for a pretty good indication. I post a thread pointing out that people are using viruses to build botnets solely to mine bitcoins, which is very quickly going to get it banned by governments and suchlike, and people just label you as a troll despite evidence from these very forums.

Oh right, did I mention the groupthink?  That's another reason why this forum is terrible.

[BTConomist]

Yeah, I'm seriously regretting trying to post here now, you post something that doesn't fit with someone elses worldview and they start a massive fucking witchhunt for "trolls" and label you as one. See this thread for a pretty good indication. I post a thread pointing out that people are using viruses to build botnets solely to mine bitcoins, which is very quickly going to get it banned by governments and suchlike, and people just label you as a troll despite evidence from these very forums.

Oh right, did I mention the groupthink?  That's another reason why this forum is terrible.

Perhaps this could be that reason to come up with something original, something that could leave even Quora (another rapidly-growing groupthink site) in the dust. This could also be an opportunity for the miners to seed the initially created bitcoins to those who choose to put their skills to the test. Think about it, what would bitcoin's value be if it was used to pay for the creation of something like Quora, Facebook, and the likes? This is how you build bitcoin's value up... not through marketing gimmicks.

[Chris Acheson]

Perhaps this could be that reason to come up with something original, something that could leave even Quora (another rapidly-growing groupthink site) in the dust.

Uh, you should probably read about what "groupthink" actually means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

[BTConomist]

Perhaps this could be that reason to come up with something original, something that could leave even Quora (another rapidly-growing groupthink site) in the dust.

Uh, you should probably read about what "groupthink" actually means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

What do you think I meant? Seriously, stop and think for a minute or two before replying with statements like that.

[onesalt]

They have disassociated us with the front page. The obvious question is why?

We are who we are: the main users of the Bitcoin software and, frankly, libertarian views, excessive speculation and such comes with it.

Why resent nature?

Bitcoin isn't necessarily limited to those who hold libertarian views. I think that many of the non-forum users hold a variety of views. Personally I'm pretty far to the left, in the the socialist area. The appeal of the currency being anonymous holds more interest to me than the fact that it is decentralized. But by having these forums officially (through a subdomain of the project) affiliated with the project makes users who fail to hold the same views as the forums majority feel marginalized and unwanted. I am not against the existence of a forum for the discussion of politics related to bitcoin; I simply do not believe that it belongs here. This forum should be moved offsite, not linked to by the bitcoin project site, and be replaced by a forum dedicated solely to the help of users/development of bitcoin-related projects. In its current form, this forum represents the bitcoin community poorly.

Yeah pretty much, I like bitcoin because It's anonymous and anyone with a computer and internet connection can use it, not because I want to hoard them like gold or because I hate the government or because I hate fiat money, or because I believe a man is worth the sole sum of his monetary possesions, and being told that my opinions are invalid simply because I don't agree with those views, rather than through critical analysis, is just fucking terrible

[Smalleyster]

I came here to learn more about bitcoin and I got tons of great help.

I am saddend to see all the scammers and political chicken littles.

It seems a bit close to absurd that this is not considered the official bitcoin forum with an aditional link to search for others, but I'm still a newbee and won't count for a long time, if ever.

Thanks to all who have helped me here. I hope to pass some of that along once in a while.

DAVe

[wumpus]

If there ever again will be an official forum, it will only be about the software and tech support/development. No political or economical discussion at all. It's very telling that even this thread turns into mudslinging.

[jgarzik]

This forum is full of low-value noise, and things that are either NSFW or blatantly illegal.

Most businesses and most citizens are tax-paying and law-abiding, and that is the target audience for achieving bitcoin acceptance as a global currency.  It is rather difficult to convince new merchants to accept bitcoins, if the forums are their primary contact point with the bitcoin community.

Bitcoin is an ideology-neutral currency; we're not here to convert the world to libertarianism or crypto-anarchism.  We're here to make the first global, decentralized currency successful.

[Chris Acheson]

and be replaced by a forum dedicated solely to the help of users/development of bitcoin-related projects.

We're trying to launch such a site right now.  Please join up to help it go faster: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/30763/bitcoin-crypto-currency

[RodeoX]

Now one has to sift through countless silly topics to find serious thought.

Is it because those whose thoughts had mattered suddenly decided not to engage the new comers for the sake of not having to repeat themselves? Start engaging the new comers, instead of referring to them as kids/trolls, and the problems will go away.

We are on the same page about this. I do spend a little time in the new user area of the forum whenever i visit. It is critical IMO to help new users and not just make them feel dumb. But some users, new and old, are dumb. Posting sophomoric rants or spamming the forums in a childlike attempt to move the market.

[lemonginger]

If there ever again will be an official forum, it will only be about the software and tech support/development. No political or economical discussion at all. It's very telling that even this thread turns into mudslinging.

Amen to that. Some days I like playing in the mud, but it has no place as the "official forum" for an open-source project. It's hard to even have a discussion about the technical aspects here, much less the overall community vibe.

But this argument was made over and over and over again by the posters in the meta thread about the politics forum and nothing has happened yet. Have not heard of this bitcointalk domain news.

[epi 1:10,000]

This forum is full of low-value noise, and things that are either NSFW or blatantly illegal.

Most businesses and most citizens are tax-paying and law-abiding, and that is the target audience for achieving bitcoin acceptance as a global currency.  It is rather difficult to convince new merchants to accept bitcoins, if the forums are their primary contact point with the bitcoin community.

Bitcoin is an ideology-neutral currency; we're not here to convert the world to libertarianism or crypto-anarchism.  We're here to make the first global, decentralized currency successful.

+1

[Anonymous]

Bitcoin is an ideology-neutral currency; we're not here to convert the world to libertarianism or crypto-anarchism.  We're here to make the first global, decentralized currency successful.

This is an oxymoron. The last line is a very libertarian goal. If Bitcoin becomes successful, down goes the tyranny on money. If nobody can control the wealth, very little can be controlled.

[kiba]

Bitcoin is an ideology-neutral currency; we're not here to convert the world to libertarianism or crypto-anarchism.  We're here to make the first global, decentralized currency successful.

+1

I disagree. Technology is not neutral. Example: atomic bombs give nation-states huge power, not so much individuals. No longer is the political consequence the conquest of a nation, but the annihilation of the world.

Bitcoin will have economic and political consequences, for better or for worse. That being said, spreading bitcoin is in libertarians' interest. What they want is not societies that agree with their views, but freedom.

[kiba]

nobody can control the wealth, very little can be controlled.

Somebody can control the wealth, and that is individuals who can secure their money from thieves and bandits.

[onesalt]

Ugh and just like that a thread about why this forum is regarded as terrible turns into a case study on the subject.

[Chris Acheson]

If Bitcoin becomes successful, down goes the tyranny on money. If nobody can control the wealth, very little can be controlled.

Why not just be content with that?  Promote Bitcoin as Bitcoin, not as something that validates your ideology.  Even if you know that it does, you don't need to push that on people who are going to react negatively to it.  Know your audience and have some tact, otherwise you're doing both Bitcoin and your ideology a disservice.

[Smalleyster]

Ugh and just like that a thread about why this forum is regarded as terrible turns into a case study on the subject.

I agree.

At this poing it seems the only alternative is for moderators to start removing posting privelages from the most strident political junkies.

[jgarzik]

Ugh and just like that a thread about why this forum is regarded as terrible turns into a case study on the subject.

I agree.

At this poing it seems the only alternative is for moderators to start removing posting privelages from the most strident political junkies.

It's not just politics; it is the sheer number of useless posts, resulting in a high noise-to-signal ratio.

I'm not the only one who feels the forum has been overrun by 4chan types, image spammers, and other reactionary, content-free posters.

[repentance]

If Bitcoin becomes successful, down goes the tyranny on money. If nobody can control the wealth, very little can be controlled.

Why not just be content with that?  Promote Bitcoin as Bitcoin, not as something that validates your ideology.  Even if you know that it does, you don't need to push that on people who are going to react negatively to it.  Know your audience and have some tact, otherwise you're doing both Bitcoin and your ideology a disservice.

It's not just the ideology which is a deterrent, it's also the "fuck you, got mine" attitude which characterises so many threads dealing with BTC-related issues.  Deleted your wallet?  You're not l33t enough to be trusted with the protocol.  Had your account hacked?  You should have used better passwords.  Unable to access your money?  You should have picked a different exchange.

You're not going to get merchants flocking to add BTC as a payment method while such attitudes are common and highly visible.  Merchants want to know that if they have a problem with using BTC, support will be available at a similar level to which it's currently offered by their existing payment platforms and this forum does nothing to create the impression that it will be.

[jgarzik]

It's not just the ideology which is a deterrent, it's also the "fuck you, got mine" attitude which characterises so many threads dealing with BTC-related issues.  Deleted your wallet?  You're not l33t enough to be trusted with the protocol.  Had your account hacked?  You should have used better passwords.  Unable to access your money?  You should have picked a different exchange.

You're not going to get merchants flocking to add BTC as a payment method while such attitudes are common and highly visible.  Merchants want to know that if they have a problem with using BTC, support will be available at a similar level to which it's currently offered by their existing payment platforms and this forum does nothing to create the impression that it will be.

+1 agreed, from someone who is trying to encourage merchants to adopt bitcoin.

[BTConomist]

If Bitcoin becomes successful, down goes the tyranny on money. If nobody can control the wealth, very little can be controlled.

Why not just be content with that?  Promote Bitcoin as Bitcoin, not as something that validates your ideology.  Even if you know that it does, you don't need to push that on people who are going to react negatively to it.  Know your audience and have some tact, otherwise you're doing both Bitcoin and your ideology a disservice.

It's not just the ideology which is a deterrent, it's also the "fuck you, got mine" attitude which characterises so many threads dealing with BTC-related issues.  Deleted your wallet?  You're not l33t enough to be trusted with the protocol.  Had your account hacked?  You should have used better passwords.  Unable to access your money?  You should have picked a different exchange.

You're not going to get merchants flocking to add BTC as a payment method while such attitudes are common and highly visible.  Merchants want to know that if they have a problem with using BTC, support will be available at a similar level to which it's currently offered by their existing payment platforms and this forum does nothing to create the impression that it will be.

And this is another reason why bitcoin is not yet ready for merchants and the general public.

Let's work out the kinks first, you know, the kinks that began surfacing as the non-developer crowd entered this forum. Does anyone (among developers) even recognize that this issue could (read: will) be the deal breaker for most merchants?

[kiba]

It's not just politics; it is the sheer number of useless posts, resulting in a high noise-to-signal ratio.

We need more Nefario type guys. Nefario built the GLBSE, and do cypherpunk things. He's cool and do interesting stuff.

What do we have? A bunch of anarchists in this forum who feel the need to beat their chest and show how loyal they are to anarchism. In term of economic activities, chest beating is the most useless form of promoting bitcoin, or perhaps negative. Plus, it contributes noise to the forum.

Libertarian and cypherpunk businesses like GLBSE will probably be the shadow economy that is behind the white bitcoin economy. I don't mind that. I don't mind delinking the forums, because it sucks anyway.

Perhaps, Bitcoin Weekly will never be the mainstream publication of the bitcoin world. I don't mind that. It's like being mises.org. Libertarianism is bigger than ever because of their boldness to ignore prevailing which amounts to "sharing is evil, mkkay?"

Politics and bickering sucks. Libertarians should know this more than anybody else. For a long time, we languish in forums not doing anything for our liberty. Instead, we are content to discuss who's the most libertarian or loyal to the libertarian tribe. Bitcoin provides that opportunities of doing something. Let take advantage of that and show that our tribe is not just a bunch of kooks, but a community of entrepreneurs that provide goods and services that people really wants in a manner in which people appreciated.

Let do badass things.

Kiba,

Your local friendly libertarian entrepreneur and senior bitcoiner.

[BTConomist]

BTW, who's to say that the topics discussed throughout this forum today is simply the result of NO CLEAR VISION for bitcoin? If it is true, then perhaps the priority should be to establish a clear vision, rather than trying to convince merchants to embrace bitcoin.

[jgarzik]

BTW, who's to say that the topics discussed throughout this forum today is simply the result of NO CLEAR VISION for bitcoin? If it is true, then perhaps the priority should be to establish a clear vision, rather than trying to convince merchants to embrace bitcoin.

There is a clear vision... it's just lost in all the forum noise.

[BTConomist]

BTW, who's to say that the topics discussed throughout this forum today is simply the result of NO CLEAR VISION for bitcoin? If it is true, then perhaps the priority should be to establish a clear vision, rather than trying to convince merchants to embrace bitcoin.

There is a clear vision... it's just lost in all the forum noise.

What is it? Because, everywhere you look (not just this forum), most consider bitcoin either as an investment or as speculative asset.

[kiba]

What is it? Because, everywhere you look (not just this forum), most consider bitcoin either as an investment or as speculative asset.

I consider bitcoin to be a world changing currency that's going to have a lot of positive impact and I wanted it to succeed so badly. So I am trying to increase my holding in bitcoin come high water or hell.

I am in it for a long haul. How about you?

[Smalleyster]

I am in it for a long haul. How about you?

That's the plan here too.

[error]

I would be more than happy if the "official" forum were cut to strictly development and technical discussion, tech support and such things that actually help people get up and running with Bitcoin. Hell, I'd be happy to make that change right now.

I may or may not remain with this forum if it remains as it is.

[kiba]

I would be more than happy if the "official" forum were cut to strictly development and technical discussion, tech support and such things that actually help people get up and running with Bitcoin. Hell, I'd be happy to make that change right now.

I may or may not remain with this forum if it remains as it is.

I would migrate to a forum that's more serious about learning how to run a business.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start an association of bitcoin business or a business cooperative where we pool together common resources.

If anybody who is also a public domainer, I would also be gald to help form the Public Domain Businesses of Bitcoin or something better sounding.

[BTConomist]

What is it? Because, everywhere you look (not just this forum), most consider bitcoin either as an investment or as speculative asset.

I consider bitcoin to be a world changing currency that's going to have a lot of positive impact and I wanted it to succeed so badly. So I am trying to increase my holding in bitcoin come high water or hell.

I am in it for a long haul. How about you?

In addition to being in it for a long haul, I have big plans for bitcoin. Problem is that most don't see it as just a currency.

When I was referring to bitcoin possibly not having a clear vision I meant something along the lines of its application to the real world (or maybe just the internet) problems/issues: i.e. what problems is it trying to solve and how will it help to solve them?

From the marketing perspective, bitcoin's current fans are its biggest asset in fulfilling that vision. They are the ones who didn't need fancy language to see potential in bitcoin. Essentially, they are its energizer bunnies that just keep going and going. All that's missing is a clear sense of direction: i.e. what exactly they should be communicating to the rest of the world about bitcoin.

Use them, don't loose them! Developers used this forum to figure out how to get bitcoin to its current state. Now let its biggest fans to use this forum to figure out how to put together bitcoin's most relevant value proposition(s) for the general public. Maybe this is that time when developers start observing how the first way of bitcoin users is interacting with bitcoin.

[kiba]

When I was referring to bitcoin possibly not having a clear vision I meant something along the lines of its application to the real world (or maybe just the internet) problems/issues: i.e. what problems is it trying to solve and how will it help to solve them?

Ease of being transferred across border. That's a dream for money launders, but for also a dream for people who need to send money to their family.

Anyway, the nice thing about bitcoin for me is how fiction-less that it can be to pay my employees. I don't need to wait for days for money to transfer. I don't need to worry about geography. I don't need to worry about paypal.

Of course, it is also hard for me to automate bitcoin because I lack l33t sysadmin skills. Nevermind about learning to use bitcoind's API. I have to learn how to set it up.(Not easy, when your OS is Debian Lenny)

In anycase, I don't believe in silver bullets. There are lot of little cases where bitcoin proves superior. What we need to do is magnify bitcoin's strength. Creating sustainable businesses one by one help with that process.

[lemonginger]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start an association of bitcoin business or a business cooperative where we pool together common resources.

If anybody who is also a public domainer, I would also be gald to help form the Public Domain Businesses of Bitcoin or something better sounding.

I am in the process of getting a Bitcoin Business Assocation website built on Drupal with forums, private user groups, wikis, and filesharing for just this purpose. Expect in a few weeks.

[Smalleyster]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start an association of bitcoin business or a business cooperative where we pool together common resources.

If anybody who is also a public domainer, I would also be gald to help form the Public Domain Businesses of Bitcoin or something better sounding.

I am in the process of getting a Bitcoin Business Assocation website built on Drupal with forums, private user groups, wikis, and filesharing for just this purpose. Expect in a few weeks.

Good ideas both!

[theymos]

There is a fundamental disagreement about what the purpose of the forum should be. Jgarzik and others want the forum to simply support the "official project". They would, I'd guess, be irritated by any real "community" on the forum.

I see the forum as existing for its own sake. People should come here to participate in the community. It is not my intention to promote (or discourage) coming here just to solve a problem or work on projects.

If you don't like participating in forum communities, or you are annoyed by some of the viewpoints expressed here, then you can go to some other forum/mailing list/newsgroup. You are not "locked in" unless you incorrectly view this forum as an "official arm of the project".

It's probably already settled that forum.bitcoin.org will move to bitcointalk.org, but I'll post my argument against the move anyway. Bitcoin.org has no claim to being "official" other than it being the only Bitcoin domain that Satoshi ever owned. The client doesn't link to bitcoin.org anywhere, and no resources are actually stored at bitcoin.org. It's not even the first Bitcoin forum: the sourceforge.net forum used to be used by Satoshi. Therefore, I see no reason why the developers should take bitcoin.org from the community that has been located here for over a year. The main bitcoin.org page can be treated like a "fan site", or it can have its forum links removed, or it can disappear entirely for all I care.

There exists an unrelated problem with post quality. I've been thinking recently that this is mostly a categorization problem: some people like jokes/chaos, and others like very high-quality posts. So it might be a good idea to create a more highly-moderated forum section. Then we'll have three quality grades: "newbies", the rest of the forum, and "serious discussion". I'm not sure whether the highly-moderated section(s) should be subforums of certain categories that already exist, or a top-level section with possible subcategories.

[wumpus]

It's probably already settled that forum.bitcoin.org will move to bitcointalk.org, but I'll post my argument against the move anyway.

I'm not in any way against this forum existing. Heck I even like the anarchistic streak, and will continue going here after it is moved. But still I don't think it has a place being linked from a development site. What people expect being linked to from a sane open source project is a helpful place where they can ask questions about usage or development, not a full-on trollfight arguing over the political and economical impact or speculation over prices/investment advice. If those were limited to certain threads, that's be ok-ish, but it seems every thread eventually ends up in one of those.

Hey, and people that like this kind of community still know how to find it

[Raoul Duke]

THIS FORUM NEEDS SOME REAL MODERATORS AND ADMINISTRATION!

[Chris Acheson]

I see the forum as existing for its own sake.

You are not "locked in" unless you incorrectly view this forum as an "official arm of the project".

Then it doesn't belong on bitcoin.org.

It's probably already settled that forum.bitcoin.org will move to bitcointalk.org, but I'll post my argument against the move anyway. Bitcoin.org has no claim to being "official" other than it being the only Bitcoin domain that Satoshi ever owned.

bitcoin.org isn't official in the sense that someone decreed it, but it is the de-facto face of the project.  It's where everyone goes when they first hear about Bitcoin and want to know more.  This won't always be the case (remember bittorrent.com?), but for now it's the reality that we have to deal with.

On the other hand, if you feel that bitcoin.org is so insignificant, why are you so concerned that this forum remain on it?

[BTConomist]

Let’s forger about the physical world for a moment, and how it will be awesome to shop/party/gamble in that world with bitcoin. Instead, let’s take a good look around and recognize that internet is this new digital world, with a multitude of valuable things to offer, but without the official currency to assign and track the value that went into producing and distributing/marketing all of those things. Now, this is bitcoin’s real opportunity: to become the internet’s official currency. Let’s not waste it on a wild-goose chase.

From my perspective as a marketing/economics geek, bitcoin doesn’t yet need any particular image to maintain in the physical world; what it needs is to be viewed/accepted as a currency of the digital world that is full of open-source projects, freelancers, cypherpunks, hacktivists, gamblers, trolls, porn, you name it. If bitcoin cannot make it in its own world, what makes you think that it can make it in the physical world where it has to compete with well-rooted fiat currencies? USD became an accepted currency around the world because it had the backing of its home economy. Let's give bitcoin its own economy first, and everything else will follow.

Keeping that in mind, whatever you see happening in this forum today is nothing more but a reflection of what’s happening all over the internet, and what also happens when a new nation/community is being born/formed. Trying to escape all of that is like trying to give up on the future potential of internet. My vote is to make this forum the go-to place for ALL bitcoiners.

[wumpus]

My vote is to make this forum the go-to place for ALL bitcoiners.

Bad bad idea, even ignoring all the previous arguments: Single point of failure

Also you contradict yourself! A central go-to-place for bitcoiners is pointless if you say the domain of bitcoin is the entire internet (which is true). Bitcoin has outgrown this forum in every possible way.

[BTConomist]

My vote is to make this forum the go-to place for ALL bitcoiners.

Bad bad idea, even ignoring all the previous arguments: Single point of failure

Also you contradict yourself! A central go-to-place for bitcoiners is pointless if you say the domain of bitcoin is the entire internet (which is true). Bitcoin has outgrown this forum in every possible way.

Please understand that I'm in no way trying to imply that the forum's current format/version can successfully serve the growing needs of bitcoin community. I simply do not agree with the decision to take all bitcoin-related discussions outside the bitcoin.org domain in order to dissociate bitcoin from conversations that are deemed inappropriate for the general public or physical-world merchants.

I believe that the focus should be on redirecting, not escaping those types of conversations, as their occurrence is an indication that bitcoin does not yet have a solid value proposition. Decentralizing all communication may hinder bitcoin's growth potential.

[kiba]

bitcoin.org isn't official in the sense that someone decreed it, but it is the de-facto face of the project.  It's where everyone goes when they first hear about Bitcoin and want to know more.  This won't always be the case (remember bittorrent.com?), but for now it's the reality that we have to deal with.

On the other hand, if you feel that bitcoin.org is so insignificant, why are you so concerned that this forum remain on it?

Trying to place Cypherpunkers next to the merchant community jgarizik wants to cater to is a bad idea.

Though, it would be nice to have one coherent community, but that doesn't seem to be possible.

[Chris Acheson]

Trying to place Cypherpunkers next to the merchant community jgarizik wants to cater to is a bad idea.

Though, it would be nice to have one coherent community, but that doesn't seem to be possible.

It would work if all the cypherpunks had enough tact not to discuss "bringing the revolution" around the merchants.  Unfortunately, many of them don't.

A combined community could be done correctly, but would require proper moderation and a "no politics" policy.  The cypherpunks have to understand that they're welcome to discuss the technology, ways to enhance privacy, etc, but political discussion belongs elsewhere.  That's not going to happen with our existing forum denizens, staff, and software.

[pekv2]

It's probably already settled that forum.bitcoin.org will move to bitcointalk.org

With everything happening, I thought forum.bitcoin got hijacked. I did a search here on bitcointalk before logging in to make sure, and seems like it was a legit change. First thing I noticed was bitcointalk, I was like wth... M my word won't help but I do prefer "forum" than "talk". My favicons for the forums are blank and white!

[Serith]

It's probably already settled that forum.bitcoin.org will move to bitcointalk.org

With everything happening, I thought forum.bitcoin got hijacked. I did a search here on bitcointalk before logging in to make sure, and seems like it was a legit change. First thing I noticed was bitcointalk, I was like wth... M my word won't help but I do prefer "forum" than "talk". My favicons for the forums are blank and white!

Same here, stumbled upon this discussion first  Bitcoin-development: The forums...


Most people in this thread talks about how making distance between this forum and developers would help to improve public opinion about bitcoin, but i would like to point that there is a risk for development team to loose it's members because of lack of interest. After all, why would highly qualified engineers work for free. I agree that this forum is not something that most developers would enjoin to read and participate, but it's connections to people from outside that brings reason to open source development process.

There is a fundamental disagreement about what the purpose of the forum should be. Jgarzik and others want the forum to simply support the "official project". They would, I'd guess, be irritated by any real "community" on the forum.

I see the forum as existing for its own sake. People should come here to participate in the community. It is not my intention to promote (or discourage) coming here just to solve a problem or work on projects.

If you don't like participating in forum communities, or you are annoyed by some of the viewpoints expressed here, then you can go to some other forum/mailing list/newsgroup. You are not "locked in" unless you incorrectly view this forum as an "official arm of the project".

It's probably already settled that forum.bitcoin.org will move to bitcointalk.org, but I'll post my argument against the move anyway. Bitcoin.org has no claim to being "official" other than it being the only Bitcoin domain that Satoshi ever owned. The client doesn't link to bitcoin.org anywhere, and no resources are actually stored at bitcoin.org. It's not even the first Bitcoin forum: the sourceforge.net forum used to be used by Satoshi. Therefore, I see no reason why the developers should take bitcoin.org from the community that has been located here for over a year. The main bitcoin.org page can be treated like a "fan site", or it can have its forum links removed, or it can disappear entirely for all I care.

There exists an unrelated problem with post quality. I've been thinking recently that this is mostly a categorization problem: some people like jokes/chaos, and others like very high-quality posts. So it might be a good idea to create a more highly-moderated forum section. Then we'll have three quality grades: "newbies", the rest of the forum, and "serious discussion". I'm not sure whether the highly-moderated section(s) should be subforums of certain categories that already exist, or a top-level section with possible subcategories.

I agree with theymos, that there should be more serious bitcoin forum. Possible structure is to have smaller, invite only version of this forum and use bitcointalk.org as sandbox to select members who could bring useful opinions.

[LokeRundt]

So. . .what about an intro in the forum teaching people how to use ad-block and or user blocks?  Help train individuals in moderating themselves.

That would be good for the crazy anti-statists in the group, as well as the mainstream investors/business folk that may be coming in

[DiamondPlus]

It's not just the ideology which is a deterrent, it's also the "fuck you, got mine" attitude which characterises so many threads dealing with BTC-related issues.  Deleted your wallet?  You're not l33t enough to be trusted with the protocol.  Had your account hacked?  You should have used better passwords.  Unable to access your money?  You should have picked a different exchange.

You're not going to get merchants flocking to add BTC as a payment method while such attitudes are common and highly visible.  Merchants want to know that if they have a problem with using BTC, support will be available at a similar level to which it's currently offered by their existing payment platforms and this forum does nothing to create the impression that it will be.

-DiamondPlus

[ByteCoin]

So it might be a good idea to create a more highly-moderated forum section. Then we'll have three quality grades: "newbies", the rest of the forum, and "serious discussion". I'm not sure whether the highly-moderated section(s) should be subforums of certain categories that already exist, or a top-level section with possible subcategories.

I've only just seen this. It sounds similar in goals to this.

Is there any way of turning my "Mee too!" into something that will bring this much-desired future closer to reality?

ByteCoin