Why is this forum considered terrible by our development overlords?

[Chris Acheson]

If Bitcoin becomes successful, down goes the tyranny on money. If nobody can control the wealth, very little can be controlled.

Why not just be content with that?  Promote Bitcoin as Bitcoin, not as something that validates your ideology.  Even if you know that it does, you don't need to push that on people who are going to react negatively to it.  Know your audience and have some tact, otherwise you're doing both Bitcoin and your ideology a disservice.

[1714107018]

1714107018

[1714107018]

1714107018

[Smalleyster]

Ugh and just like that a thread about why this forum is regarded as terrible turns into a case study on the subject.

I agree.

At this poing it seems the only alternative is for moderators to start removing posting privelages from the most strident political junkies.

[jgarzik]

Ugh and just like that a thread about why this forum is regarded as terrible turns into a case study on the subject.

I agree.

At this poing it seems the only alternative is for moderators to start removing posting privelages from the most strident political junkies.

It's not just politics; it is the sheer number of useless posts, resulting in a high noise-to-signal ratio.

I'm not the only one who feels the forum has been overrun by 4chan types, image spammers, and other reactionary, content-free posters.

[repentance]

If Bitcoin becomes successful, down goes the tyranny on money. If nobody can control the wealth, very little can be controlled.

Why not just be content with that?  Promote Bitcoin as Bitcoin, not as something that validates your ideology.  Even if you know that it does, you don't need to push that on people who are going to react negatively to it.  Know your audience and have some tact, otherwise you're doing both Bitcoin and your ideology a disservice.

It's not just the ideology which is a deterrent, it's also the "fuck you, got mine" attitude which characterises so many threads dealing with BTC-related issues.  Deleted your wallet?  You're not l33t enough to be trusted with the protocol.  Had your account hacked?  You should have used better passwords.  Unable to access your money?  You should have picked a different exchange.

You're not going to get merchants flocking to add BTC as a payment method while such attitudes are common and highly visible.  Merchants want to know that if they have a problem with using BTC, support will be available at a similar level to which it's currently offered by their existing payment platforms and this forum does nothing to create the impression that it will be.

[jgarzik]

It's not just the ideology which is a deterrent, it's also the "fuck you, got mine" attitude which characterises so many threads dealing with BTC-related issues.  Deleted your wallet?  You're not l33t enough to be trusted with the protocol.  Had your account hacked?  You should have used better passwords.  Unable to access your money?  You should have picked a different exchange.

You're not going to get merchants flocking to add BTC as a payment method while such attitudes are common and highly visible.  Merchants want to know that if they have a problem with using BTC, support will be available at a similar level to which it's currently offered by their existing payment platforms and this forum does nothing to create the impression that it will be.

+1 agreed, from someone who is trying to encourage merchants to adopt bitcoin.

[BTConomist]

If Bitcoin becomes successful, down goes the tyranny on money. If nobody can control the wealth, very little can be controlled.

Why not just be content with that?  Promote Bitcoin as Bitcoin, not as something that validates your ideology.  Even if you know that it does, you don't need to push that on people who are going to react negatively to it.  Know your audience and have some tact, otherwise you're doing both Bitcoin and your ideology a disservice.

It's not just the ideology which is a deterrent, it's also the "fuck you, got mine" attitude which characterises so many threads dealing with BTC-related issues.  Deleted your wallet?  You're not l33t enough to be trusted with the protocol.  Had your account hacked?  You should have used better passwords.  Unable to access your money?  You should have picked a different exchange.

You're not going to get merchants flocking to add BTC as a payment method while such attitudes are common and highly visible.  Merchants want to know that if they have a problem with using BTC, support will be available at a similar level to which it's currently offered by their existing payment platforms and this forum does nothing to create the impression that it will be.

And this is another reason why bitcoin is not yet ready for merchants and the general public.

Let's work out the kinks first, you know, the kinks that began surfacing as the non-developer crowd entered this forum. Does anyone (among developers) even recognize that this issue could (read: will) be the deal breaker for most merchants?

[kiba]

It's not just politics; it is the sheer number of useless posts, resulting in a high noise-to-signal ratio.

We need more Nefario type guys. Nefario built the GLBSE, and do cypherpunk things. He's cool and do interesting stuff.

What do we have? A bunch of anarchists in this forum who feel the need to beat their chest and show how loyal they are to anarchism. In term of economic activities, chest beating is the most useless form of promoting bitcoin, or perhaps negative. Plus, it contributes noise to the forum.

Libertarian and cypherpunk businesses like GLBSE will probably be the shadow economy that is behind the white bitcoin economy. I don't mind that. I don't mind delinking the forums, because it sucks anyway.

Perhaps, Bitcoin Weekly will never be the mainstream publication of the bitcoin world. I don't mind that. It's like being mises.org. Libertarianism is bigger than ever because of their boldness to ignore prevailing which amounts to "sharing is evil, mkkay?"

Politics and bickering sucks. Libertarians should know this more than anybody else. For a long time, we languish in forums not doing anything for our liberty. Instead, we are content to discuss who's the most libertarian or loyal to the libertarian tribe. Bitcoin provides that opportunities of doing something. Let take advantage of that and show that our tribe is not just a bunch of kooks, but a community of entrepreneurs that provide goods and services that people really wants in a manner in which people appreciated.

Let do badass things.

Kiba,

Your local friendly libertarian entrepreneur and senior bitcoiner.

[BTConomist]

BTW, who's to say that the topics discussed throughout this forum today is simply the result of NO CLEAR VISION for bitcoin? If it is true, then perhaps the priority should be to establish a clear vision, rather than trying to convince merchants to embrace bitcoin.

[jgarzik]

BTW, who's to say that the topics discussed throughout this forum today is simply the result of NO CLEAR VISION for bitcoin? If it is true, then perhaps the priority should be to establish a clear vision, rather than trying to convince merchants to embrace bitcoin.

There is a clear vision... it's just lost in all the forum noise.

[BTConomist]

BTW, who's to say that the topics discussed throughout this forum today is simply the result of NO CLEAR VISION for bitcoin? If it is true, then perhaps the priority should be to establish a clear vision, rather than trying to convince merchants to embrace bitcoin.

There is a clear vision... it's just lost in all the forum noise.

What is it? Because, everywhere you look (not just this forum), most consider bitcoin either as an investment or as speculative asset.

[kiba]

What is it? Because, everywhere you look (not just this forum), most consider bitcoin either as an investment or as speculative asset.

I consider bitcoin to be a world changing currency that's going to have a lot of positive impact and I wanted it to succeed so badly. So I am trying to increase my holding in bitcoin come high water or hell.

I am in it for a long haul. How about you?

[Smalleyster]

I am in it for a long haul. How about you?

That's the plan here too.

[error]

I would be more than happy if the "official" forum were cut to strictly development and technical discussion, tech support and such things that actually help people get up and running with Bitcoin. Hell, I'd be happy to make that change right now.

I may or may not remain with this forum if it remains as it is.

[kiba]

I would be more than happy if the "official" forum were cut to strictly development and technical discussion, tech support and such things that actually help people get up and running with Bitcoin. Hell, I'd be happy to make that change right now.

I may or may not remain with this forum if it remains as it is.

I would migrate to a forum that's more serious about learning how to run a business.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start an association of bitcoin business or a business cooperative where we pool together common resources.

If anybody who is also a public domainer, I would also be gald to help form the Public Domain Businesses of Bitcoin or something better sounding.

[BTConomist]

What is it? Because, everywhere you look (not just this forum), most consider bitcoin either as an investment or as speculative asset.

I consider bitcoin to be a world changing currency that's going to have a lot of positive impact and I wanted it to succeed so badly. So I am trying to increase my holding in bitcoin come high water or hell.

I am in it for a long haul. How about you?

In addition to being in it for a long haul, I have big plans for bitcoin. Problem is that most don't see it as just a currency.

When I was referring to bitcoin possibly not having a clear vision I meant something along the lines of its application to the real world (or maybe just the internet) problems/issues: i.e. what problems is it trying to solve and how will it help to solve them?

From the marketing perspective, bitcoin's current fans are its biggest asset in fulfilling that vision. They are the ones who didn't need fancy language to see potential in bitcoin. Essentially, they are its energizer bunnies that just keep going and going. All that's missing is a clear sense of direction: i.e. what exactly they should be communicating to the rest of the world about bitcoin.

Use them, don't loose them! Developers used this forum to figure out how to get bitcoin to its current state. Now let its biggest fans to use this forum to figure out how to put together bitcoin's most relevant value proposition(s) for the general public. Maybe this is that time when developers start observing how the first way of bitcoin users is interacting with bitcoin.

[kiba]

When I was referring to bitcoin possibly not having a clear vision I meant something along the lines of its application to the real world (or maybe just the internet) problems/issues: i.e. what problems is it trying to solve and how will it help to solve them?

Ease of being transferred across border. That's a dream for money launders, but for also a dream for people who need to send money to their family.

Anyway, the nice thing about bitcoin for me is how fiction-less that it can be to pay my employees. I don't need to wait for days for money to transfer. I don't need to worry about geography. I don't need to worry about paypal.

Of course, it is also hard for me to automate bitcoin because I lack l33t sysadmin skills. Nevermind about learning to use bitcoind's API. I have to learn how to set it up.(Not easy, when your OS is Debian Lenny)

In anycase, I don't believe in silver bullets. There are lot of little cases where bitcoin proves superior. What we need to do is magnify bitcoin's strength. Creating sustainable businesses one by one help with that process.

[lemonginger]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start an association of bitcoin business or a business cooperative where we pool together common resources.

If anybody who is also a public domainer, I would also be gald to help form the Public Domain Businesses of Bitcoin or something better sounding.

I am in the process of getting a Bitcoin Business Assocation website built on Drupal with forums, private user groups, wikis, and filesharing for just this purpose. Expect in a few weeks.

[Smalleyster]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start an association of bitcoin business or a business cooperative where we pool together common resources.

If anybody who is also a public domainer, I would also be gald to help form the Public Domain Businesses of Bitcoin or something better sounding.

I am in the process of getting a Bitcoin Business Assocation website built on Drupal with forums, private user groups, wikis, and filesharing for just this purpose. Expect in a few weeks.

Good ideas both!

[theymos]

There is a fundamental disagreement about what the purpose of the forum should be. Jgarzik and others want the forum to simply support the "official project". They would, I'd guess, be irritated by any real "community" on the forum.

I see the forum as existing for its own sake. People should come here to participate in the community. It is not my intention to promote (or discourage) coming here just to solve a problem or work on projects.

If you don't like participating in forum communities, or you are annoyed by some of the viewpoints expressed here, then you can go to some other forum/mailing list/newsgroup. You are not "locked in" unless you incorrectly view this forum as an "official arm of the project".

It's probably already settled that forum.bitcoin.org will move to bitcointalk.org, but I'll post my argument against the move anyway. Bitcoin.org has no claim to being "official" other than it being the only Bitcoin domain that Satoshi ever owned. The client doesn't link to bitcoin.org anywhere, and no resources are actually stored at bitcoin.org. It's not even the first Bitcoin forum: the sourceforge.net forum used to be used by Satoshi. Therefore, I see no reason why the developers should take bitcoin.org from the community that has been located here for over a year. The main bitcoin.org page can be treated like a "fan site", or it can have its forum links removed, or it can disappear entirely for all I care.

There exists an unrelated problem with post quality. I've been thinking recently that this is mostly a categorization problem: some people like jokes/chaos, and others like very high-quality posts. So it might be a good idea to create a more highly-moderated forum section. Then we'll have three quality grades: "newbies", the rest of the forum, and "serious discussion". I'm not sure whether the highly-moderated section(s) should be subforums of certain categories that already exist, or a top-level section with possible subcategories.

[wumpus]

It's probably already settled that forum.bitcoin.org will move to bitcointalk.org, but I'll post my argument against the move anyway.

I'm not in any way against this forum existing. Heck I even like the anarchistic streak, and will continue going here after it is moved. But still I don't think it has a place being linked from a development site. What people expect being linked to from a sane open source project is a helpful place where they can ask questions about usage or development, not a full-on trollfight arguing over the political and economical impact or speculation over prices/investment advice. If those were limited to certain threads, that's be ok-ish, but it seems every thread eventually ends up in one of those.

Hey, and people that like this kind of community still know how to find it