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Author Topic: [PRE-SALE][ICO] Petro $PTR - Oil backed crypto currency launched by Venezuela  (Read 28046 times)
taseenb
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February 26, 2018, 04:13:48 PM
 #61

I think Venezuela should involve others countries in Petro like Russians, China, Saudi Arabia or Iran

Except Saudi Arabia (US vassal), they are all very involved already in Petro and in their own crypto currencies, in many different ways. One of the companies developing Petro is Russian and Venezuela has huge relations with Chinese companies providing hardware (certainly also for their newly launched State owned mining factories, and also for private miners that are now regulated in Venezuela).

What we read here is the US/European focused imperial (and often racist) culture that is losing grip: people repeat narratives from the US propaganda as if everything coming out from Bloomberg, Reuters, CNN, New York Times was true, and anybody else was an idiot or evil. Well, it will be nice to see. Many surprises to come.
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alemacgo
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February 26, 2018, 04:31:04 PM
 #62

- The oil reserves of a small part of the Orinoco Belt (for 5.342 billion certified barrels of oil) form the initial backing of the Petro and this has been made into law in Venezuela, months ago.

Oh, I didn't know you were a Venezuelan lawyer. I know many lawyers and they all agree that the petro is an illegal issuance of debt, because it wasn't approved by Parliament.

Here's an article that may clear up some of your misconceptions about the supposed oil backing: https://prodavinci.com/esta-el-petro-realmente-respaldado-por-reservas-petroleras/

Remember, the government isn't promising to give you oil in exchange for petros. It's promising to give you the amount of bolívares that a barrel of oil is worth, based on the rate that they themselves set (and have set for 15 years, since exchange controls were enacted).
taseenb
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February 26, 2018, 04:42:14 PM
 #63

Morality aside, for my one brief point here, if it is not mineable, what is to stop that gov’t
from doing what it did with their fiat cash currency 💴 ? Pumping coin out in mass, and changing
their mind on limits on coin? If/when this crypto project tanks. Likely, imho

1 - "What they did with their fiat currency" is misleading: all Central Banks in the world print money (in particular the US, the country with the greatest external debt in history) and in South America inflation is a chronic disease, for many reasons. But the inflation in Venezuela has been largely fabricated, it's not a "normal" high inflation. The exchange rate with the US dollar is defined by black markets that are strongly manipulated from Miami and Colombia, goods distribution is blocked by sabotages and lack of international currency due to the US sanctions and lack of international currency in the country. The US have practiced financial wars and psyops in South America many times to overthrow democratically elected governments.

2 - The Petro will be a token based on the Ethereum blockchain. As far as i know, if the supply is defined you cannot change it without a hard fork (but this is very technical and we will know this when the Petro will be out). So far all this is just guesses.

3 - The government is looking for an anti-inflationary, globally accepted, reliable currency to trade its oil, collect funds to make investments (blocked by the sanctions for lack of US dollars) and control inflation. So there is no interest in manipulating the supply in the future, because it would mean losing the confidence and therefore the value created around their Petro. It simply doesn't make sense.
alemacgo
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February 26, 2018, 04:47:36 PM
 #64

Venezuela has huge relations with Chinese companies providing hardware
Really? Show me the statements made by those companies. Just because the government buys a lot of Chinese Antminers L3 doesn't make them partners.
taseenb
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February 26, 2018, 04:59:48 PM
 #65

Venezuela has huge relations with Chinese companies providing hardware
Really? Show me the statements made by those companies. Just because the government buys a lot of Chinese Antminers L3 doesn't make them partners.

I haven't said they are partners. I've said that they have relations with Chinese companies providing hardware (Venezuela is a client in this case). That's been the case for a long time, also before the Petro. Mostly for their Canaima project (Venezuelan free computers for children and students) and also public transportation. Commercial relations with China and Russia are very strong.

Venezuela is the first country in the world that is creating mining farms for Bitcoins and regulating private miners.
taseenb
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February 26, 2018, 05:06:01 PM
 #66

- The oil reserves of a small part of the Orinoco Belt (for 5.342 billion certified barrels of oil) form the initial backing of the Petro and this has been made into law in Venezuela, months ago.

Oh, I didn't know you were a Venezuelan lawyer. I know many lawyers and they all agree that the petro is an illegal issuance of debt, because it wasn't approved by Parliament.

Your lawyers friends certainly know the law and respect the institutions of Venezuela, i believe. Therefore they must know that the National Assembly has been in contempt of court for more than a year and was eventually suspended by the Supreme Court because they never accepted to fix the illegal status of some of its deputies. Anyway the Constituent Assembly has been elected in the meanwhile, so they are just a suspended body without any power used by the opposition to make statements and meetings. US media obviously only report opposition claims. The opposition is funded with million of dollars by the US, that have practiced a perpetual meddling in the political process of Venezuela, for decades.

In short, Petro is completely legal under Venezuelan law and had the approval of all legitimate and constitutional institutions.
alemacgo
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February 26, 2018, 05:17:00 PM
 #67

Anyway the Constituent Assembly has been elected in the meanwhile

You will not find a single Venezuelan lawyer expert in Constitutional Law that thinks the National Constituent Assembly is legal. It was invoked by Maduro without a Yes/No referendum, which is required by law (http://www.minci.gob.ve/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/CONSTITUCION.pdf), and the company responsible for the technology behind our elections for over 10 years said the results were tampered with: http://www.smartmatic.com/news/article/smartmatic-statement-on-the-recent-constituent-assembly-election-in-venezuela/

It's quite simple. The petro is new issuance of debt, Venezuela's constitution explicitly requires new debt to be approved by Parliament (not by Constituent Assemblies), hence the petro is illegal.
taseenb
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February 26, 2018, 05:37:47 PM
 #68

You will not find a single Venezuelan lawyer expert in Constitutional Law that thinks the National Constituent Assembly is legal. It was invoked by Maduro without a Yes/No referendum

Can you tell me the article of the Constitution that says you have to do a Yes/No referendum to call the election of the Constituent Assembly?

The Petro was approved by the Constituent Assembly, the highest institution in Venezuela, therefore the Petro was legally launched. The rest is gossip and desperate propaganda, unfortunately.
alemacgo
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February 26, 2018, 05:45:19 PM
 #69

Can you tell me the article of the Constitution that says you have to do a Yes/No referendum to call the election of the Constituent Assembly?

The discussion is getting off-topic, but I'll say this:

Artículo 347. El pueblo de Venezuela es el depositario del poder constituyente originario. En ejercicio de dicho poder, puede convocar una Asamblea Nacional Constituyente con el objeto de transformar al Estado, crear un nuevo ordenamiento jurídico y redactar una nueva Constitución.

"The people of Venezuela may invoke a Constituent Assembly".

Artículo 348. La iniciativa de convocatoria a la Asamblea Nacional Constituyente podrá hacerla el Presidente...

"The initiative to convoke a Constituent Assembly may be enforced by the President..."

Seriously, try to find any Venezuelan lawyer with experience in Constitutional law. All of them will agree that this "initiative to convoke" means that it has to be approved by the people first (like Article 347 says). If Maduro is so fond of democracy, why didn't he ask the people if they wanted a Constituent Assembly? There was no way to vote against the Constituent Assembly.

In short, the petro is illegal, by international consensus, which is all that matters when you're trying to raise money. Venezuela's own sovereign Parliament and 12 countries in the Americas have refused to recognize the authority of a supra-constitutional body that sits on top of democratic institutions.
Buk,uk
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February 26, 2018, 05:58:29 PM
 #70

Petro is the first country to be issued cryptoasset,
Registration for pre-sale starts on February 20th at 06.00 am and ends on March 19 at 06.00 WIB.
Petro ($ PTR) will be a sovereign crypto asset backed by oil assets and issued by the State of Venezuela.

my question,
is this already listed dibursa ,?

interesting to follow,
taseenb
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February 26, 2018, 06:04:36 PM
 #71

Seriously, try to find any Venezuelan lawyer with experience in Constitutional law. All of them will agree that this "initiative to convoke" means that it has to be approved by the people first (like Article 347 says). If Maduro is so fond of democracy, why didn't he ask the people if they wanted a Constituent Assembly? There was no way to vote against the Constituent Assembly.

You're clutching at straws. As you can see by yourself, your claim is false, despite all desperate arguments you're trying to steal from the opposition's propaganda. The Constitution clearly states that the President can call elections for a new Constitutional Assembly.

Like it or not, the Petro is a fact.
coinve
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February 26, 2018, 06:40:58 PM
 #72

alemacgo, you're offtopic.
if you want to discuss about venezuelan politics or laws, then go to another thread or forum.
this thread is about the venezuelan cryptocurrency, "el Petro".
do what tassenb already told you.
But hey, sit back and relax. Nobody forces you to invest anything in Petro if you think it's a bad investment.
alemacgo
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February 26, 2018, 06:58:04 PM
 #73

alemacgo, you're offtopic.
if you want to discuss about venezuelan politics or laws, then go to another thread or forum.

If anybody was off-topic it was the OP, I was just replying to a comment and said I'd get back to the discussion.

In any case, Venezuelan Law is very much relevant for an investor that wants to put money on the petro. Maduro's regime claims the petro is legal when lawyerly consensus says it is not. He also claims that it's backed by oil when it's not (read the Prodavinci article I linked upthread – Prodavinci is one of the few Venezuelan news outlets the government doesn't control). It's backed by a VEF-denominated barrel of oil, and the government has hyperinflated the price of the bolívar. They're printing tons more as we speak.

All of these things are relevant to analyze whether the petro is an awful investment.
happyminer1
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February 26, 2018, 07:02:43 PM
 #74

- The oil reserves of a small part of the Orinoco Belt (for 5.342 billion certified barrels of oil) form the initial backing of the Petro and this has been made into law in Venezuela, months ago.

Here's an article that may clear up some of your misconceptions about the supposed oil backing: https://prodavinci.com/esta-el-petro-realmente-respaldado-por-reservas-petroleras/

This article is very good and explains well various reasons (there are more) why the supposed oil backing is pure fiction. If you know Spanish: Highly recommended.

Remember, the government isn't promising to give you oil in exchange for petros. It's promising to give you the amount of bolívares that a barrel of oil is worth, based on the rate that they themselves set (and have set for 15 years, since exchange controls were enacted).

The government is not even promising this. It only promises to accept petros at a rate they themselves set and at a discount as payment of "national taxes, fees, contributions and public services". If you don't owe anything to the government and don't need it's services (as will be mostly the case for foreign investors) this promise isn't of any direct value to you.
taseenb
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February 26, 2018, 07:15:47 PM
Last edit: February 26, 2018, 07:37:26 PM by taseenb
 #75

The government is not even promising this. It only promises to accept petros at a rate they themselves set and at a discount as payment of "national taxes, fees, contributions and public services".

This is quite misleading. The Petro is a new crypto currency, this means:

- EXHANGES: Petro will be traded in the secondary market: exchanges around the world and in Venezuela.
- MASS ADOPTION: Petro will be accepted for payments of taxes, fees, public services and more from day 1, therefore offering a large adoption (larger than any other existing crypto).
- BIG NUMBERS: Petro will be accepted for Venezuelan oil trade (which is in the range of 8-25 billion US dollars).
- ATTRACTIVE PRICE: The ICO will offer Petros at an attractive, discounted price: companies with Petros will then be able to buy oil at it's normal price with Petros.
- PRIVATE SECTOR ADOPTION: Private companies in Venezuela (like shops) could start accepting Petros, once they are launched in the market, increasing the adoption even more.
- EXPANSION OF PUBLIC SECTOR ADOPTION: Eventually, the State could even decide to pay public employees and social benefits with Petros and expand further its use.
- ANTI-INFLATION: Because of its anti-inflationary nature, the Petro could be much more interesting for Venezuelans than Bolivares and more convenient and safe than US dollars

Petro could become the most used crypto in the world, at least until other countries like Russia or Iran do the same.

Therefore all this polemic about the barrel is not the main point here! There is much more behind the Petro. Let's not forget that the oil barrel is just the base value of Petro, its value can be higher. If this works, and Petro starts to be used even by a small part of the Venezuelan people and for a small percentage of the oil trade, the value of Petro could grow in time.
happyminer1
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February 26, 2018, 07:24:50 PM
 #76

Morality aside, for my one brief point here, if it is not mineable, what is to stop that gov’t
from doing what it did with their fiat cash currency 💴 ? Pumping coin out in mass, and changing
their mind on limits on coin? If/when this crypto project tanks. Likely, imho

2 - The Petro will be a token based on the Ethereum blockchain. As far as i know, if the supply is defined you cannot change it without a hard fork (but this is very technical and we will know this when the Petro will be out). So far all this is just guesses.

In accordance with the present English version of the white paper the petro will be based on NEM too: "Prior to the Initial Offer, the 100 million (100,000,000) cryptoassets of the issue will be pre-mined in the Petro blocks chain. The Petro NEM blockchain token will have Petro from its own blockchain reserved to be exchanged when decided by its holders."

3 - The government is looking for an anti-inflationary, globally accepted, reliable currency to trade its oil, collect funds to make investments (blocked by the sanctions for lack of US dollars) and control inflation. So there is no interest in manipulating the supply in the future, because it would mean losing the confidence and therefore the value created around their Petro. It simply doesn't make sense.

It makes more or less as much sense as destroying the bolivar by increasing the money supply to finance the fiscal deficit and by a disastrous exchange policy.
taseenb
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February 26, 2018, 07:32:53 PM
 #77

3 - The government is looking for an anti-inflationary, globally accepted, reliable currency to trade its oil, collect funds to make investments (blocked by the sanctions for lack of US dollars) and control inflation. So there is no interest in manipulating the supply in the future, because it would mean losing the confidence and therefore the value created around their Petro. It simply doesn't make sense.

It makes more or less as much sense as destroying the bolivar by increasing the money supply to finance the fiscal deficit and by a disastrous exchange policy.

What's important here is that if Petro works, people and companies will have less problems with inflation and also with international trade (therefore exchange limitations will be less relevant and impact less companies that need to import goods, machinery etc). That's the point, regardless our personal opinions on government policies, sanctions, economic war, financial and commercial crimes (bachaqueo, black market, currency extraction and destruction) etc.

The problem I would like to discuss is IF and HOW it is going to work. That is the challenge of historical proportions that Maduro, the technical teams working on Petro and Venezuela as a people are facing today.
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February 26, 2018, 07:35:09 PM
 #78

The registration for the first pre-sale started on Feb. 20 at -04:00 UTC and ends at Mar. 19 at -04:00 UTC.
At the current stage of the pre-sale you cannot buy Petros ($PTR), you can only make an offer (minimum and maximum amount you'd want to buy).


Petro is the first State-issued cryptoasset


Background

What is it?
Petro ($PTR) will be a sovereign crypto asset backed by oil assets and issued by the Venezuelan State.

Venezuela
Venezuela possesses the largest proven reserves of crude oil in the world (300,900,000,000 barrels), as well as great advantages in terms of energy, including an electric system subsidised by the same oil revenues. Therefore Venezuela is the cheapest country to mine Bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies (https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/02/21/venezuela-named-cheapest-country-mine-crypto-petro-launched/). With the introduction of Petro, the Venezuelan government is also legalising and regulating the crypto miners in the country (mining was largely practiced but it was formally illegal). The Venezuelan state will accept payments for taxes, fees, contributions, public services and international trade in crypto currencies and Petro, boosting the mass adoption of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.

Supply and blockchain
A total of one hundred million (100,000,000) Petro will be issued, from which eighty-two thousand four hundred million (82,400,000) will be offered to the market in two stages: a private pre-sale and a public Initial Offer, and will be distributed according to the following list:
  • 44.0% will be available for the initial public offering of the cryptoasset.
  • 38.4% will be available for private sale
  • 17.6% will be retained by the Venezuelan Superintendency of Currency and Related Activities (SUPCACVEN)


The Petro launch will be divided into two stages: a Pre-sale and an Initial Coin Offer (ICO)

Presale
The Pre-sale will start on February 20,2018 and will consist of the creation and sale of smart-asset on the NEM blockchain platform. This process will promote and guarantee demand for Petro’s Initial offering, which will be carried out later. The tokens that meet the requirements of the mosaic on NEM blockchain standard are non minable digital cards that are issued in their entirety through a smart contract on this platform. The pre-sale token will not be part of the Petro network until Petro distribution during the Initial Offer process. The token may be exchanged for Petro at any time between the launch date and the closing of the Initial Offer.

Initial offer
Petro’s Initial Offer will be made later until the eighty-two million four hundred thousand (82,400,000) units available for sale are exhausted. Petro’s on sale during the Initial Offer will be created and sold through an auditable mechanism in the blockchain.

Restrictions
The Venezuelan State will not be able to make new emissions of Petro.

(Source: the official Petro white paper)


Official links

Official Petro website [SPANISH]: http://www.elpetro.gob.ve/
Official Petro website [ENGLISH]: http://www.elpetro.gob.ve/index-en.html
White paper (in English): http://www.elpetro.gob.ve/Whitepaper_Petro_en.pdf
Buyers manual (still only in Spanish): http://www.elpetro.gob.ve/docs/MANUAL%20COMPRADOR%20VERSION%20BETA.pdf


BEWARE!

At the time of writing (February 23rd, 2018), there is no way to buy Petros. Not yet. All people posting Ethereum addresses and websites claiming to sell/exhange Petros $PTR at the moment are literally scammers. The only legit source is the official Petro website by the Government of Venezuela (see above: Links).
This massive project has been launched in less than 3 months before the first announcement, so expect delays and non-working pages (mostly in the first days/weeks).


Pre-sale registration

Current steps to register and participate to this ICO pre-sale:
1 - You can register to participate in the pre-sale, by clicking on the link "PRESALE" (top right of the page in the English version of the Petro website): http://www.elpetro.gob.ve/
2 - You will receive an email after several hours. The email should contain a link with a code, pointing to the same official website.
3 - If the link does not work (it didn't in my case), be patient and you will receive another email with a working link.
4 - The link will bring you to a page where you'll be able to make an offer in fiat money or crypto (you will not buy yet, so you don't have to pay anything).


I will try to keep this thread up to date with the latest information from official sources and invite everybody to do the same. Please, be responsible and avoid spamming or posting unofficial payment instructions!
i heard they are coming out with a gold backed crypto too...any news about that?

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alemacgo
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February 26, 2018, 07:38:01 PM
 #79

- PUBLIC SECTOR ADOPTION: Petro will be accepted for payments of taxes, fees, public services and more from day 1, therefore offering a large adoption (larger than any other existing crypto).

False, the public won't adopt petro because the public can't BUY petro using VEF.

- MASS ADOPTION: Petro will be accepted for Venezuelan oil trade (which is in the range of 8-25 billion US dollars).
False. PDVSA cannot force its creditors or suppliers to accept petro. They will simply go elsewhere. Our extra-heavy oil isn't that attractive to most investors, and PDVSA is in no position to demand special payment conditions.

- ATTRACTIVE PRICE: The ICO will offer Petros at an attractive, discounted price: companies with Petros will then be able to buy oil at it's normal price with Petros.
False again. A Venezuelan barrel of oil isn't worth $60, even when loaded on a tanker. Even with the ICO discount, and even if they were actually giving you oil, this would be a bad deal. Again: the government won't give you oil, they will give you VEF.

- ANTI-INFLATION: Because of its anti-inflationary nature, the Petro could be much more interesting for Venezuelans than Bolivares and more convenient and safe than US dollars
This claim is quite hilarious coming from the government responsible for the only hyperinflation currently in the world. Why don't they make VEF "anti-inflation" then? Why didn't they think of that?
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February 26, 2018, 07:41:04 PM
Last edit: February 26, 2018, 07:57:33 PM by coinve
 #80

tassenb, don't waste your time discussing with them.
they registered recently in this forum to talk shit about elPetro and the venezuelan government, that's it.
they are not real investors and they don't care what you're saying.
and real big investors aren't wasting time reading this shit anyway.
so, whatever is going to happen, it's going to happen.
no matter what we discuss here, nothing will be effected.

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