[PRE-SALE][ICO] Petro $PTR - Oil backed crypto currency launched by Venezuela

[taseenb]

[NEWS] Financial paper bancaynegocios.com reports that Deutsche Bank estimates that Venezuela could raise between $ 3,400 million and $ 4,400 million with the sale of Petro

http://www.bancaynegocios.com/deutsche-bank-gobierno-podria-recaudar-hasta-4-400-millones-con-el-petro/
This needs confirmation from other sources though, as I could not find where the statement has been made by Deutsche Bank.

[happyminer1]

[NEWS] Financial paper bancaynegocios.com reports that Deutsche Bank estimates that Venezuela could raise between $ 3,400 million and $ 4,400 million with the sale of Petro

http://www.bancaynegocios.com/deutsche-bank-gobierno-podria-recaudar-hasta-4-400-millones-con-el-petro/
This needs confirmation from other sources though, as I could not find where the statement has been made by Deutsche Bank.

Deutsche Bank doesn't estimate that Venezuela could raise between $ 3,400 million and $ 4,400 million. It estimates that the goverment plans to raise between $ 3,400 million and $ 4,400 million. Huge difference.

[taseenb]

It would be, by far, the largest crowd funding in history and the most successful ICO in the history of crypto. Exciting.

Anyway the ICO is supposed to end only when ALL Petros have been sold and that means 82 million Petros * $58 USD = $4.75 billions (unless the government decides to stop the ICO before).

[GiBo60]

It is but this is only the pre-sale (with discounts), which is a private sale reserved to institutional buyers. The public ICO will start on March 19th and will last until all coins will be sold.

I suspect this info might not be correct. AFAIK the "white paper" (better said, the "white papers" since there have been different revisions of it in the last few weeks) nowhere says that the pre-sale is reserved to institutional buyers, it just says that it is private which is something completely different.

In fact if you register online on the official Petro site for the pre-sale you can register also as a "Persona natural", receive an e-mail for the offer, make an offer and receive a .pdf to finalize the pre-sale, while not being an "institutional buyer".

Moreover as per the declarations of Maduro and the government of Venezuela themselves there have been tens if not hundreds of thousands of "offers" (and users, both "companies" and "individuals") in the first days of the pre-sale, numbers and users categories which are incompatible with a sale supposedly reserved to institutional buyers.

There are many other aspects of this sale which I find "opaque" but I will limit myself to this objection at the moment.

[taseenb]

It is but this is only the pre-sale (with discounts), which is a private sale reserved to institutional buyers. The public ICO will start on March 19th and will last until all coins will be sold.

I suspect this info might not be correct. AFAIK the "white paper" (better said, the "white papers" since there have been different revisions of it in the last few weeks) nowhere says that the pre-sale is reserved to institutional buyers, it just says that it is private which is something completely different.

In fact if you register online on the official Petro site for the pre-sale you can register also as a "Persona natural", receive an e-mail for the offer, make an offer and receive a .pdf to finalize the pre-sale, while not being an "institutional buyer".

Moreover as per the declarations of Maduro and the government of Venezuela themselves there have been tens if not hundreds of thousands of "offers" (and users, both "companies" and "individuals") in the first days of the pre-sale, numbers and users categories which are incompatible with a sale supposedly reserved to institutional buyers.

Yes, you can make an offer. But you cannot pay and get Petros yet (not even in the form of a contract), it is just a formal offer. I think that large institutional buyers might have been approached privately, but this is just my personal opinion. I doubt a Chinese or Indian oil refinery representative would register in the website as you and I, if they wanted to buy for example $20 million USD in Petros.

Anyway, before the ICO we cannot buy Petros. Also because the network is still under development.

[happyminer1]

Update on the (non-existing) huge sales success of the petro

(updated March 6)

20.2.

Maduro announces only 20 hours after the launch of the presale, 4,777 millions yuans or 735 million dollars as the initial result of “operations of intention of buying el petro”. This expression sounds funny (also in the original Spanish) but makes clear what Maduro is speaking about: You could only register online for the presale or initial sale if at a certain point you stated your intention to buy petros in US dollars, euros, yuans, ethereum or bitcoins by giving a range in the given currency. (Let say you would indicate that you intend to buy petros for 10,000-15,000 US dollars.) Now this indication of how much you intend to buy is meaningless. It doesn’t have any legal relevance. Many people gave some numbers just out of curiosity. So, assuming that Maduro isn’t outrightly lying, we are informed that 20 hours after the launch people all over the world registered their non-binding interest to buy petros for 735 million dollars. It is not clear, whether the government used the upper – probably – or loader bound to arrive at that number. (http://www.correodelorinoco.gob.ve/presidente-maduro-intencion-de-compra-del-petro-supera-los-596-millones-de-euros/)

22.2.

Maduro announces that only two days after the launch there are already offers and negotiations surpassing 1 billion dollars. There were 292,000 offers of intention to buy, 36% made in dollars, 15% in euros, 18% in ethereum and 31% in bitcoins. (Together 100%. Interesting to note, that while two days before Madure first mentions the amount of offers in yuans, actually only a minimal amount was offered in this currency.) From theses offers 133,665 people were contacted. (Making it evident, that those “more then 1000 million dollars” are mostly non-binding intentions.) Actually that probably meant, that 133,665 got a second email with a link to a binding contract. (There are many people who never received such a second email!) We don’t know how many people actually signed and sent in this (immoral!) contract. But it is to be expected that we will see some of them complaining on twitter when they realize that they bought petros at a price they never wanted to. (http://www.correodelorinoco.gob.ve/presidente-maduro-ofertas-y-negociaciones-vinculadas-al-petro-superan-los-us-1000-millones/)

In the same talk on facebook Maduro also speaks about negotiations which where (successfully?) completed about 350 million dollars to pay for inputs for Venezuelan industry with petros. (I would like to know the terms of such a contract – if it indeed exists.) As he announced “offers and negatiations” surpassing 1 billion dollars, those 350 million are probably part of the whole sum.

26.2.

Maduro announces the number of 171,000 certified and verified offers of intentions to buy and clarifies that differentially from former numbers these offers are certified and verified. We don’t know what that means. Given the time frame and the fact that Maduro continues to speak about “offers of intentions to buy” I assume that he still speaks of those non-binding online offers which were cut down buy some criterion not known to us. Maybe it is just the number of offers of people who got a second email. I don’t think he speaks about people who actually send in the signed binding contract: To certify and verify these in a meaningful way would take more time.  One would also wonder, why he didn’t change wording away from “offers of intentions to buy” and speaks of potential buyers as users, if he were referring to those binding contracts. Finally all the information he gives (that the offers come from 87,284 users, among them 3,523 companies and 83,761 natural persons; the breakdown into currencies and the list of 127 countries where offers come from) can be gained from the online process. It is telling that he doesn’t say anything about the amount of those “certified and verified” offers: No doubt, this number is much lower than the numbers announced so far. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzavISvS0vU, http://www.correodelorinoco.gob.ve/criptomoneda-venezolana-petro-ha-recibido-171-015-ofertas-de-compras-certificadas/)

Evidently, in part I’m speculating here. But given that the government fails to actually inform on the process and instead only publishes disconnected numbers for propaganda purposes that’s all we can do.

The same day TeleSur publishes a video “informing” about the petro. The numbers about the presale are based  on Maduros declarations on the 22nd of February (292,000 offers, 36% in USD ...). But they speak of 1.2 billion dollars being “raised” and 40 million of petros being “sold”. This is obviously wrong, as Maduro himself made clear that these were only “offers of intention to buy”. The last number of 40 million of petros being sold seems to be simply derived from those 1.2 billion dollars, dividing them by 30, the dollar price of the first batch of petros during presale according to the latest version of the white paper. If actually already 40 million of petros were sold, this would go against the white paper which only assigns 34 million of petros to presale. They also say that those 40 million of petros where sold in 3 million of operations. This doesn’t make any sense and plainly contradicts the Maduro’s information from the same day and the days before. (https://videos.telesurtv.net/video/705228/el-petro-vende-40-millones-de-unidades/)

27.2.

Maduro anounces that the day before offers of already more than 3 billions dollars were received. This tops the 1,2 billions from the 22nd of February (as reported by TeleSur on the 26) but (if it isn’t an outright lie) most probably is based again mostly on non-binding online offers and not on binding contracts and not even on “certified and verified” online offers. (http://www.radiomundial.com.ve/sites/default/files//Nicol%C3%A1s%20Maduro_378.mp3, http://www.radiomundial.com.ve/article/m%C3%A1s-de-3-mil-millones-de-d%C3%B3lares-reportan-ofertas-vinculadas-al-petro)

5.3.

Maduro declares that Venezuela is completing the protocol of 30 days of presale. The number of certified offers of intention to buy went up to 186.306. Again he doesn’t say how much was offered through these certified offers. 0,3% of the offers were in yuan. The offers were certified by a Russian company which uses the most advanced technological platform of the world. (Zeus? What technology would that be?)

http://ciudadmcy.info.ve/?p=29564
https://mundo.sputniknews.com/americalatina/201803061076781051-caracas-moneda-virtual/

Presale didn't start yet

According to the white paper “Pre-sale will start on February 20,2018 and will consist of the creation and sale of smart-asset on the NEM blockchain platform.” CriptoNoticias (a digital journal dedicated to information on bitcoin and its technology) claims that it was told by sources near to the Venezuelan government that as of 22nd of February there is no such smart asset, repeating this claim on the 25th. (https://www.criptonoticias.com/sucesos/petro-no-posee-contrato-inteligente-token-oficial-aun-fuentes/, https://www.criptonoticias.com/adopcion/10-cosas-debes-saber-sobre-petro-criptoactivo-creado-estado-venezolano/) If this is true, presale, which was “launched” on February 20, didn’t start yet as no smart-asset was created, contrary to the time line of the white paper. There is actually a NEM-contract which is widely believed to be the contract for the presale token. But if this was the true contract then presale wouldn’t have started either, as no token (“mosaic”) was sold so far: All tokens are held by the same owner. (http://explorer.ournem.com/#/s_account?account=NCGBBZKOTERO3EXMPPCNDNDXZQQJXBEMWWO7MB66)

Resume

If Maduro isn’t simply lying, they received a lot of non-binding offers (some of them not at all serious) and they are in the process of sifting them through. At the same time there might be private negotiations (like the ones about the 350 million dollar sales in petro) we don’t know anything about and which might be successful or not. If they are successful, we will probably never hear about their terms. Presale in the terms of the white paper didn't start.

[taseenb]

It's so funny how so many are desperately trying to minimise the potential success of the Petro, hate is amazing LOL.
Maybe the simplest thing is just wait the deadlines and see the facts.

By the way, if someone likes to starve an entire country with sanctions for ideological reasons (which in practice means blocking medicines and food from entering, a typical US criminal strategy) and then blame the government for everything, well: keep going. The Petro could help with that, but it will take time because the boycott against Venezuela is massive.

A very good article on the effects of the economic war and US sanctions on the economy and the people by Alfred de Zayas, who is an American lawyer and UN Independent Expert: https://dezayasalfred.wordpress.com/2018/03/03/essay-on-venezuela

[STT]

I dont mind any names behind a project exactly, hate equates to blindness I agree.   A good cryptocurrency does not rely on its creator(s) to continue or to be used increasingly.   I want capitalism to be a success and I'm interested to hear of any new projects and details of how that might best happen.   This is an epic project, it should be the most frequently commentated on for the entire forum if the potential is anywhere near likely.     So I guess this stems to alot of disbelief by the community but I'd rather see people discuss then ignore it, that wont stop it happening is my guess.


Sanctions are a precursor to war is one description I've heard often probably quite accurate as it undermines the regime of that country.     I would also say any economy off kilter destroys itself, from within not so much needing an external load to fail but its own momentum working against it.   Im not targeting that as a description of anywhere in particular, its a general rule I think is ongoing for any regime that does not respect open business, free trade and the freedom of the people to be capitalists is equal to democracy imo.   I do hope Petro allows this and I believe it will find success if it enables business to proceed more easily across the world, I find that to be the general aim of cryptocurrency.
  If Petro wants this success they will have it imo  I look forward to reading more details

[coinve]

https://www.cryptocompare.com/coins/ptr/overview

no other crypto coin is receiving so much hate than Petro
and it's not released yet
lmao
https://media.giphy.com/media/1jy3pev2Eu5Ve/giphy.gif

[happyminer1]

It's so funny how so many are desperately trying to minimise the potential success of the Petro, hate is amazing LOL.

It is funny how people have to resort to personal innuendos. What is wrong in my update?

A very good article on the effects of the economic war and US sanctions on the economy and the people by Alfred de Zayas, who is an American lawyer and UN Independent Expert: https://dezayasalfred.wordpress.com/2018/03/03/essay-on-venezuela

The article is full of unproven and false claims, relies on questionable sources (Pasqualina Curcio, Alfredo Serrano ...) and rightly was rejected by the Georgetown Journal of International Affairs, even though it was commissioned - a decision very difficult for editors to take. In many parts it just repeats the Venezuelan goverment propaganda.

[STT]

https://www.cryptocompare.com/coins/ptr/overview

no other crypto coin is receiving so much hate than Petro
and it's not released yet
lmao
https://media.giphy.com/media/1jy3pev2Eu5Ve/giphy.gif

Petro (PTR) has its origin in the idea of president Hugo Chavez of a strong currency backed by raw materials. Petro will be a sovereign crypto asset backed by oil assets and issued by the Venezuelan State as a spearhead for the development of an independent, transparent and open digital economy open to direct participation of citizens. It will also serve as a platform for the growth of a fairer financial system that contributes to development, autonomy and trade between emerging economies. Venezuelan oil assets will be used to promote the adoption of crypto assets and technologies based on the country´s block-chain. The State shall promote and encourage the use of Petro with a view to consolidating it as an investment option, savings mechanism and means of exchange with State services, industry, commerce, and citizens in general.

The Venezuelan population will have at their reach a technology that will allow them having a valuable reserve and robust means of payment to stimulate savings and contribute to the country’s development. Petro will be an instrument for Venezuela’s economic stability and financial independence, coupled with an ambitious and global vision for the creation of a freer, more balanced and fairer international financial system.

The Petro launch will be divided into two stages: a Pre-sale and an Initial Coin Offer (ICO). Presale The Pre-sale will start on February 20, 2018, and will consist of the creation and sale of smart-asset on the NEM blockchain platform. This process will promote and guarantee demand for Petro’s Initial offering, which will be carried out later. The tokens that meet the requirements of the mosaic on NEM blockchain standard are non-minable digital cards that are issued in their entirety through an intelligent contract on this platform. The presale token will not be part of the Petro network until Petro distribution during the Initial Offer process. The token may be exchanged for Petro at any time between the launch date and the closing of the Initial Offer. Initial offer Petro’s Initial Offer will be made later until the eighty-two million four hundred thousand (82,400,000) units available for sale are exhausted. Petro’s on sale during the Initial Offer will be created and sold through an auditable mechanism in the blockchain. The Venezuelan State will not be able to make new emissions Petro. The ICO will start on the 20th of March, 2018 and will last until all the tokens are sold.

Might as well copy this up as a source.     I want to know about the backing, theres nothing wrong with the idea of crypto linked to physical or commodity backing.   Some may raise concerns it wont be true crypto or various reservations about it but I mostly just want to hearing more about this backing.

It has to be more then a word or a promise, exchange has to be possible or its not being backed by oil trade.    As I understand it the backing is only in the form of FIAT notes which is not the same surely, thats just an approximation and fairly open to criticism of really not equating to oil backing.   The whole point of a commodity is today my barrel oil has a worth and a use and I can sleep sound knowing I own it, keep it as I wish and it does not degrade, its an asset holding so thats really useful to own and some cases vital to an economy.   Eg.  China has built giant reserves of oil to buffer their economy, a crypto that relates to this has strong utility.
  Paper on the other hand, I can get this anywhere and the promise written on it is of debatable value where as oil is a fixed chemical structure.   You see the difference, so the backing is which of those two?

I couldnt care less about politics but the economics, I want Venezuela to find economic success with this Petro use and I really find that more likely with a sound link as seems to be proposed.  A strong currency works both ways, I find worldwide many economies avoid this idea and favour paper printed which is not strength.   Crypto is not about FIAT or fractional reserves, these are points of failure highlighted many times so far.

[happyminer1]

It has to be more then a word or a promise, exchange has to be possible or its not being backed by oil trade.

So far there isn't anything more than empty promises. https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2018/02/27/petro-truly-backed-oil-reserves/ explains it well.

There is no word of any way by which you could exchange a petro for a barrel of Venezuelan oil or its international price. And I promise you: There won't be a way to do this. According to the presidential decree "the potential development of 5.342 million of barrels (net) of original oil in situ" will form the backing.

[taseenb]

The article is full of unproven and false claims, relies on questionable sources (Pasqualina Curcio, Alfredo Serrano ...) and rightly was rejected by the Georgetown Journal of International Affairs, even though it was commissioned - a decision very difficult for editors to take. In many parts it just repeats the Venezuelan goverment propaganda.

The article is obviously full of perfectly proven, detailed and strong claims that you simply don't like (also quite well known and certainly not secret), coming from someone who has worked as a UN expert on development for years. The rejection of the news outlet that commissioned it is an embarrassing show of how western propaganda works: an academic and substantiated research basically cannot be published because it doesn't confirm the US narrative. US sanctions and sabotage have harmed Venezuelan economy for 2 decades, but are now devastating it.

Essay on Venezuela: https://dezayasalfred.wordpress.com/2018/03/03/essay-on-venezuela/

[taseenb]

I couldnt care less about politics but the economics, I want Venezuela to find economic success with this Petro use and I really find that more likely with a sound link as seems to be proposed.  A strong currency works both ways, I find worldwide many economies avoid this idea and favour paper printed which is not strength.   Crypto is not about FIAT or fractional reserves, these are points of failure highlighted many times so far.

You are repeating this over and over again (the "backing"), but it seems you ignore all the other elements that can make the Petro strong. Mass adoption, large scale trade, etc.
The backing is irrelevant if the Petro is used by million of people and for large sums, anyway.

[happyminer1]

The article is full of unproven and false claims, relies on questionable sources (Pasqualina Curcio, Alfredo Serrano ...) and rightly was rejected by the Georgetown Journal of International Affairs, even though it was commissioned - a decision very difficult for editors to take. In many parts it just repeats the Venezuelan goverment propaganda.

The article is obviously full of perfectly proven, detailed and strong claims that you simply don't like (also quite well known and certainly not secret), coming from someone who has worked as a UN expert on development for years. The rejection of the news outlet that commissioned it is an embarrassing show of how western propaganda works: an academic and substantiated research basically cannot be published because it doesn't confirm the US narrative. US sanctions and sabotage have harmed Venezuelan economy for 2 decades, but are now devastating it.

Essay on Venezuela: https://dezayasalfred.wordpress.com/2018/03/03/essay-on-venezuela/

The article is neither academic nor substantiated. Can you point me to any prove in the article that the sanctions of Canada and the European Union have aggravated the suffering of the Venezuelan people? Any prove that there is an economic war being waged against Venezuela since 1998?

[taseenb]

no other crypto coin is receiving so much hate than Petro
and it's not released yet
lmao

It's called racism, as simple as that.

Many people are totally brainwashed by US propaganda and cannot understand why a Latin American country would be able to create a local monetary system free from the USD and be able to trade freely. Even Venezuelans who dream to dream a surrogate of the US, prefer to see their country starving rather than fight against it. Also, US criminal sanctions would work less, if the Petro works. Too many reasons people are bombed by propaganda. If it's a success, it's a success 2X.

[taseenb]

The article is neither academic nor substantiated. Can you point me to any prove in the article that the sanctions of Canada and the European Union have aggravated the suffering of the Venezuelan people? Any prove that there is an economic war being waged against Venezuela since 1998?

It is, you're desperately biased trying to deny the impossible. The author is a UN expert and academic who writes reports for the UN and know well the situation in Venezuela, and he even reports things that are WELL KNOWN and public, if you don't read only propaganda press.

All sanctions aggravate the suffering (in any country, as the UN has declared for decades now), for obvious reasons and regardless the specifics, because they harm the Venezuelan economy. The US sanctions are the most violent, but Venezuela has been isolated by almost all US allied markets: even countries that don't have "sanctioned" (which is illegal by the way) are not trading normally with Venezuela. It's a war. Nobody in South America, apart from Bolivia kept trade levels w Venezuela after 2014-15.
The war against Venezuela started when Chavez showed he would be impossible to corrupt. Therefore the sabotages, massive strikes at PDVSA (that led even to import oil!) and the horrendous US coup in 2002. That's a copy of Chile treatment in the 70s. The US have done the same in all Latin America, nothing new.

[STT]

You are repeating this over and over again (the "backing"), but it seems you ignore all the other elements that can make the Petro strong. Mass adoption, large scale trade, etc.
The backing is irrelevant if the Petro is used by million of people and for large sums, anyway.

I agree it could be used short term in large scale but long term the fundamentals or supply and demand behind crypto currency do affect the value it holds.   I dont think value can be forced, the price often in crypto is reliant on potential for development and expansion in trade which in turn is about the underlying prospects.
It would be good if there was a solid relationship behind petro as reference over time otherwise the most likely occurrence is a declining ratio to every other exchangeable coin that holds a stricter system of value.    I always think of it like a set of scales, Petro could be used but it sounds like the value is not appreciating but more like a digital representation of the Bolivar with the idea of oil somehow in the background.

Anyway I spotted this tweet below and overall I think Venezuela's involvement in crypto will provide a positive for the people and the people are always the greatest wealth any country has.   I hope the exchange isnt unilateral but Petro adapts over time as it finds what works best, it will last longest this way imo.


https://i.imgur.com/FKqxU1w.png
https://twitter.com/BTCTN/status/966796610431799301

[happyminer1]

The article is neither academic nor substantiated. Can you point me to any prove in the article that the sanctions of Canada and the European Union have aggravated the suffering of the Venezuelan people? Any prove that there is an economic war being waged against Venezuela since 1998?

The author is a UN expert and academic who writes reports for the UN and know well the situation in Venezuela, and he even reports things that are WELL KNOWN and public, if you don't read only propaganda press.

Nothing of this makes the article academic and substantiated. It just explains why you think the author doesn't have to provide proof for some of his strong (false) claims because they are suposedly well known and public.

Venezuela has been isolated by almost all US allied markets: even countries that don't have "sanctioned" (which is illegal by the way) are not trading normally with Venezuela. It's a war. Nobody in South America, apart from Bolivia kept trade levels w Venezuela after 2014-15.

They are not trading normally because Venezuela doesn't have enough foreign currency to import at highter levels and the production of the PDVSA went down dramatically.

The war against Venezuela started when Chavez showed he would be impossible to corrupt.

LOL

[taseenb]

Nothing of this makes the article academic and substantiated. It just explains why you think the author doesn't have to provide proof for some of his strong (false) claims because they are suposedly well known and public.

All he says is very simple and totally true, there are plenty of links in the article for the specific stories. As for events that refer to more than 2-3 years ago, it's very well known history that you don't clearly know nothing about but can find everywhere, including in a decent history book. The desperation to reinvent reality and deny the most obvious and proved facts is quite amazing.