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Author Topic: Will The Bitcoin Investment Trust affect the price?  (Read 16552 times)
notme
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September 27, 2013, 05:43:23 AM
 #141

So we have all those trusts and funds; and they will grow and new will arrive. They will accumulate bitcoins. So no bitcoins left for real use. No real economy. And .... bitcoins will be worth 0.

The calculation is off... the investors are buying bitcoin yes, but the investing fund sells the underlying asset (bitcoins) at a trickle to pay its costs.  The buyers are not buying bitcoins per se, they are buying an investment vehicle, and the fund buys bitcoin with most of the money that the investors give them.

Essentially these funds create faucets of bitcoin and increase the price of bitcoins in the process.  They pay for the privilege of doing this.

Which should help with volatility in rallies.

If we could get some consistent sell pressure it would be fantastic for lessening parabolic moves.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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FNG
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September 27, 2013, 06:24:20 AM
 #142

So we have all those trusts and funds; and they will grow and new will arrive. They will accumulate bitcoins. So no bitcoins left for real use. No real economy. And .... bitcoins will be worth 0.
if only they were divisible...

Oh wait
Herp
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September 27, 2013, 06:41:21 AM
 #143


Angry Birds maker Rovio has a market cap of around $6-7 billion ffs Smiley People need to put this in context a bit. This is f... Angry birds we're talking about not a revolutionary payment system and store of value that can revolutionize the world.  
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141123/Angry-Birds-creators-float-stock-market-5-5-BILLION-puzzle-game-hits-200-million-users-month.html

Quote
angry birds is bigger than bitcoin ? Shocked

-what if angry birds gets outlawed, regulated ?
-is angry bird really anoymous ?
-will there ever be more than 21 mill angry birds ?
-only criminals are using angry birds for drugs, money laundering, etc.
-angry birds must be a ponzi scheme
-my grandma will never play angry birds
-what is the intrinsic value of an angry bird ?

i ha'd, paused, and ha'd again

Right question to ask here would be:

How long until Bitcoin reaches the $7 billion market cap of Angry Birds( Rovio)? When/if that happens a Bitcoin should be worth around $640.

How long for Bitcoin to become bigger than Angry Birds? This is the million dollar question. I think right answer is yesterday but market is often irrational and needs time to adjust.


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600watt
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September 27, 2013, 06:43:23 AM
 #144

So we have all those trusts and funds; and they will grow and new will arrive. They will accumulate bitcoins. So no bitcoins left for real use. No real economy. And .... bitcoins will be worth 0.

you are basically saying that purchasing bitcoins will make less of them available (true) and this will lower the price ?

 Huh

 Roll Eyes

 Grin





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September 27, 2013, 06:57:54 AM
 #145

So we have all those trusts and funds; and they will grow and new will arrive. They will accumulate bitcoins. So no bitcoins left for real use. No real economy. And .... bitcoins will be worth 0.

you are basically saying that purchasing bitcoins will make less of them available (true) and this will lower the price ?

 Huh

 Roll Eyes

 Grin






If you had all the bitcoins existed, how much they would be worth?
NewLiberty
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September 27, 2013, 07:01:51 AM
 #146

So we have all those trusts and funds; and they will grow and new will arrive. They will accumulate bitcoins. So no bitcoins left for real use. No real economy. And .... bitcoins will be worth 0.

you are basically saying that purchasing bitcoins will make less of them available (true) and this will lower the price ?

 Huh

 Roll Eyes

 Grin




If you had all the bitcoins existed, how much they would be worth?
Not really important because that isn't how it works.  But consider this..
If the value goes down, do you think some of those investors might sell?
The free market is a good thing.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
600watt
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September 27, 2013, 07:16:20 AM
 #147


If you had all the bitcoins existed, how much they would be worth?
[/quote]


i´d say they are worth what i paid for them.
Herp
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September 27, 2013, 07:25:36 AM
 #148


If you had all the bitcoins existed, how much they would be worth?

Quote
i´d say they are worth what i paid for them.

This is a pointless debate since one can't have all the bitcoins. Some won't sell them and some will keep producing more to put into circulation.

Bitcoin is divisible down to a Satoshi so even if just a handful of bitcoins were in circulation people could still transact using fractions of bitcoin.


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Le Happy Merchant
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September 27, 2013, 07:29:51 AM
 #149

Bitcoin is divisible down to a Satoshi so even if just a handful of bitcoins were in circulation people could still transact using fractions of bitcoin.

So what your saying is... its an absurd fallacy that has no place in a reasonable discussion.

Herp
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September 27, 2013, 07:57:48 AM
 #150

Bitcoin is divisible down to a Satoshi so even if just a handful of bitcoins were in circulation people could still transact using fractions of bitcoin.

So what your saying is... its an absurd fallacy that has no place in a reasonable discussion.

Yeah. Smiley


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bitcodo
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September 27, 2013, 08:28:51 AM
 #151

The point is, that if you limit the supply or availability, the price will drop after some time. First the price will go up, but then alternative will come and price will drop. This happend with natural rubber (world war) and will/is hapen to rare earths. China has monopoly and is abusing this. West spends milions on searching for alternatives. Many articles about rare earths, China, alternatives, price, mining,...
But with bitcoins, you don't need to invent anything, you don't need to spend anything, you just create new coin.

I know, you will say bitcoin is not commodity and that bitcoin is money or gold 2.0 and that my point is no good.
Herp
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September 27, 2013, 08:49:16 AM
 #152

The point is, that if you limit the supply or availability, the price will drop after some time. First the price will go up, but then alternative will come and price will drop. This happend with natural rubber (world war) and will/is hapen to rare earths. China has monopoly and is abusing this. West spends milions on searching for alternatives. Many articles about rare earths, China, alternatives, price, mining,...
But with bitcoins, you don't need to invent anything, you don't need to spend anything, you just create new coin.

I know, you will say bitcoin is not commodity and that bitcoin is money or gold 2.0 and that my point is no good.

If you're short rare earths, you're on the wrong side of the trade. You should cover and go long.

Your assessment is wrong when it comes to Bitcoin, although your scenario may happen in a different circumstance but not the point of this discussion.

1000 people can share 1 bitcoin without any problems as bitcoin is divisible down to a satoshi. 1000 companies, however, can't use same 1 tonne of finite material because they all need that 1 tonne to manufacture products.


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Marbit
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September 27, 2013, 08:49:40 AM
 #153

i have no idea what is going on.  Huh
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September 27, 2013, 08:58:49 AM
 #154

i have no idea what is going on.  Huh

Neither does bitcodo
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September 27, 2013, 11:26:00 AM
 #155

The demand for a credible store of value always exists, and bitcoin is the best candidate due to its fixed and limited supply and superior international transaction ability

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September 27, 2013, 11:46:34 AM
 #156

Price impact: Dramatically up

But not right away. Consider what will happen:

1) It will take X days, weeks, or months for the initial few million $ worth to be bought up. Those purchases have no effect on the exchange price, or maybe even a mild negative effect if some who were buying coins steadily via the exchanges switch over to BIT.

2) Once the initial few million in seed is bought up, Second Market will start to purchase more, maybe $5-10 million worth. If they do part or all of this on an exchange, the price impact will of course be strongly positive. However, given how many contacts they have for private placement, they'll likely acquire part or all of those coins from dark, non-exchange sources. If they purchase very few of those coins on exchanges, the immediate price impact will be negligible, but the medium-term effect will be dramatic.  

The reason why is a bit subtle but very real: Insofar as the people Second Market buys the coins from would have sold those coins on exchanges if it weren't for SM giving them the wonderful opportunity to sell without slippage, that much less BTC is going to be available on the exchanges. The same amount of money chasing fewer BTC means a higher price per coin. But there will be a time delay, perhaps days or weeks, maybe in some cases months.

The fun part is that those who understand the time delay get to make money off those who are fooled by the time delay. Translation: Buy before the price rises and get in on the ground floor of the next stage of the bitcoin rocket.
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September 27, 2013, 12:28:34 PM
 #157

Price impact: Dramatically up

But not right away. Consider what will happen:

1) It will take X days, weeks, or months for the initial few million $ worth to be bought up. Those purchases have no effect on the exchange price, or maybe even a mild negative effect if some who were buying coins steadily via the exchanges switch over to BIT.

2) Once the initial few million in seed is bought up, Second Market will start to purchase more, maybe $5-10 million worth. If they do part or all of this on an exchange, the price impact will of course be strongly positive. However, given how many contacts they have for private placement, they'll likely acquire part or all of those coins from dark, non-exchange sources. If they purchase very few of those coins on exchanges, the immediate price impact will be negligible, but the medium-term effect will be dramatic.  

The reason why is a bit subtle but very real: Insofar as the people Second Market buys the coins from would have sold those coins on exchanges if it weren't for SM giving them the wonderful opportunity to sell without slippage, that much less BTC is going to be available on the exchanges. The same amount of money chasing fewer BTC means a higher price per coin. But there will be a time delay, perhaps days or weeks, maybe in some cases months.

The fun part is that those who understand the time delay get to make money off those who are fooled by the time delay. Translation: Buy before the price rises and get in on the ground floor of the next stage of the bitcoin rocket.

if i were in charge of purchasing the coins for the trust i would make sure to buy a healthy part at the exchanges to drive up price. that will make BIT look even more attractive since performace inreases with price.
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September 27, 2013, 12:33:02 PM
 #158

 Grin lol

i have no idea what is going on.  Huh

Neither does bitcodo
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September 27, 2013, 03:07:21 PM
 #159

Price impact: Dramatically up

But not right away. Consider what will happen:

1) It will take X days, weeks, or months for the initial few million $ worth to be bought up. Those purchases have no effect on the exchange price, or maybe even a mild negative effect if some who were buying coins steadily via the exchanges switch over to BIT.

2) Once the initial few million in seed is bought up, Second Market will start to purchase more, maybe $5-10 million worth. If they do part or all of this on an exchange, the price impact will of course be strongly positive. However, given how many contacts they have for private placement, they'll likely acquire part or all of those coins from dark, non-exchange sources. If they purchase very few of those coins on exchanges, the immediate price impact will be negligible, but the medium-term effect will be dramatic.  

The reason why is a bit subtle but very real: Insofar as the people Second Market buys the coins from would have sold those coins on exchanges if it weren't for SM giving them the wonderful opportunity to sell without slippage, that much less BTC is going to be available on the exchanges. The same amount of money chasing fewer BTC means a higher price per coin. But there will be a time delay, perhaps days or weeks, maybe in some cases months.

The fun part is that those who understand the time delay get to make money off those who are fooled by the time delay. Translation: Buy before the price rises and get in on the ground floor of the next stage of the bitcoin rocket.

I think the price will be bumped a little just because many are thinking about it like this.  Buy before the price rises because it will take off at some point in upcoming weeks or months.

It is very bullish news though and I think it would be wise for those that were waiting for the right time to realize that this might be the "right time" even with prices higher than they have been the past few months.

I am already "all in" so I don't have any spare change to throw in or I would be buying more right now.  Husband just bought a new car too.  That cool new  $29,000 Mercedes. Of course he had to add a bunch of features so it is more than that.  It is setting us back a bit.  Oh well.  Wink

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September 27, 2013, 03:13:43 PM
 #160

Price impact: Dramatically up

But not right away. Consider what will happen:

1) It will take X days, weeks, or months for the initial few million $ worth to be bought up. Those purchases have no effect on the exchange price, or maybe even a mild negative effect if some who were buying coins steadily via the exchanges switch over to BIT.

2) Once the initial few million in seed is bought up, Second Market will start to purchase more, maybe $5-10 million worth. If they do part or all of this on an exchange, the price impact will of course be strongly positive. However, given how many contacts they have for private placement, they'll likely acquire part or all of those coins from dark, non-exchange sources. If they purchase very few of those coins on exchanges, the immediate price impact will be negligible, but the medium-term effect will be dramatic.  

The reason why is a bit subtle but very real: Insofar as the people Second Market buys the coins from would have sold those coins on exchanges if it weren't for SM giving them the wonderful opportunity to sell without slippage, that much less BTC is going to be available on the exchanges. The same amount of money chasing fewer BTC means a higher price per coin. But there will be a time delay, perhaps days or weeks, maybe in some cases months.

The fun part is that those who understand the time delay get to make money off those who are fooled by the time delay. Translation: Buy before the price rises and get in on the ground floor of the next stage of the bitcoin rocket.

I think the price will be bumped a little just because many are thinking about it like this.  Buy before the price rises because it will take off at some point in upcoming weeks or months.

It is very bullish news though and I think it would be wise for those that were waiting for the right time to realize that this might be the "right time" even with prices higher than they have been the past few months.

I am already "all in" so I don't have any spare change to throw in or I would be buying more right now.  Husband just bought a new car too.  That cool new  $29,000 Mercedes. Of course he had to add a bunch of features so it is more than that.  It is setting us back a bit.  Oh well.  Wink

why does he need to buy the Mercedes when he already has you?  Wink
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