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Author Topic: Will The Bitcoin Investment Trust affect the price?  (Read 16601 times)
Jumpy
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September 26, 2013, 05:19:22 AM
 #21

Note that this trust will almost assuredly be limited to accredited investors, which means those who make at least $250K a year or have a net worth over $1 million dollars.

Luckily, people with that much money are probably smart enough not to pay someone else to make transactions with bitcoins with NO ADDED VALUE.

As such, my guess is that the AUM for this trust will remain pedestrian and the price implications will only have to do with public sentiment and overreactions.
(bold added)
There is plenty of added value.


How are they offering extra value to their investors? "The ease of investing in Bitcoin without worrying about..." is like saying "pay me because you are too stupid to do this on your own." They are essentially trying to make money on Bitcoin being too mystical for investors to touch on their own without a jungle guide (to use Michael Lewis' terminology).

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September 26, 2013, 05:24:15 AM
 #22

Note that this trust will almost assuredly be limited to accredited investors, which means those who make at least $250K a year or have a net worth over $1 million dollars.

Luckily, people with that much money are probably smart enough not to pay someone else to make transactions with bitcoins with NO ADDED VALUE.

As such, my guess is that the AUM for this trust will remain pedestrian and the price implications will only have to do with public sentiment and overreactions.
(bold added)
There is plenty of added value.


How are they offering extra value to their investors? "The ease of investing in Bitcoin without worrying about..." is like saying "pay me because you are too stupid to do this on your own." They are essentially trying to make money on Bitcoin being too mystical for investors to touch on their own without a jungle guide (to use Michael Lewis' terminology).

So its like how AOL users used AOL before figuring out the Internet isn't AOL?
Ares
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September 26, 2013, 05:36:27 AM
 #23

Note that this trust will almost assuredly be limited to accredited investors, which means those who make at least $250K a year or have a net worth over $1 million dollars.

Luckily, people with that much money are probably smart enough not to pay someone else to make transactions with bitcoins with NO ADDED VALUE.

As such, my guess is that the AUM for this trust will remain pedestrian and the price implications will only have to do with public sentiment and overreactions.
(bold added)
There is plenty of added value.


How are they offering extra value to their investors? "The ease of investing in Bitcoin without worrying about..." is like saying "pay me because you are too stupid to do this on your own." They are essentially trying to make money on Bitcoin being too mystical for investors to touch on their own without a jungle guide (to use Michael Lewis' terminology).

Did you even read my post?

How about not having to send their personal information to offshore companies? How about not having to worry about the integrity of those offshore companies? Also it's not about them being too stupid, it's about them not having to spend time learning about wallets and all the security needed to protect them. This is a MASSIVE convenience to them, and offers a lot more safety to their identity and safety to their coins. There is a lot of value in those, especially when it comes to investors of that caliber.
Jumpy
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September 26, 2013, 05:39:25 AM
 #24

Note that this trust will almost assuredly be limited to accredited investors, which means those who make at least $250K a year or have a net worth over $1 million dollars.

Luckily, people with that much money are probably smart enough not to pay someone else to make transactions with bitcoins with NO ADDED VALUE.

As such, my guess is that the AUM for this trust will remain pedestrian and the price implications will only have to do with public sentiment and overreactions.
(bold added)
There is plenty of added value.


How are they offering extra value to their investors? "The ease of investing in Bitcoin without worrying about..." is like saying "pay me because you are too stupid to do this on your own." They are essentially trying to make money on Bitcoin being too mystical for investors to touch on their own without a jungle guide (to use Michael Lewis' terminology).

So its like how AOL users used AOL before figuring out the Internet isn't AOL?

Not really, but bonus points for a clever analogy.

Jumpy
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September 26, 2013, 05:42:43 AM
 #25

Note that this trust will almost assuredly be limited to accredited investors, which means those who make at least $250K a year or have a net worth over $1 million dollars.

Luckily, people with that much money are probably smart enough not to pay someone else to make transactions with bitcoins with NO ADDED VALUE.

As such, my guess is that the AUM for this trust will remain pedestrian and the price implications will only have to do with public sentiment and overreactions.
(bold added)
There is plenty of added value.


How are they offering extra value to their investors? "The ease of investing in Bitcoin without worrying about..." is like saying "pay me because you are too stupid to do this on your own." They are essentially trying to make money on Bitcoin being too mystical for investors to touch on their own without a jungle guide (to use Michael Lewis' terminology).

Did you even read my post?

How about not having to send their personal information to offshore companies? How about not having to worry about the integrity of those offshore companies? Also it's not about them being too stupid, it's about them not having to spend time learning about wallets and all the security needed to protect them. This is a MASSIVE convenience to them, and offers a lot more safety to their identity and safety to their coins. There is a lot of value in those, especially when it comes to investors of that caliber.

The fact that they won't have liquidity in one of the most volatile currency market should make any accredited investor explore ways of doing this more cheaply for themselves.

I work directly with accredited investors every day and would not suggest that they inquire on this trust. They are smart, self-motivated learners that have become wealthy by not throwing money to intermediaries.

Ares
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September 26, 2013, 05:56:16 AM
 #26

Note that this trust will almost assuredly be limited to accredited investors, which means those who make at least $250K a year or have a net worth over $1 million dollars.

Luckily, people with that much money are probably smart enough not to pay someone else to make transactions with bitcoins with NO ADDED VALUE.

As such, my guess is that the AUM for this trust will remain pedestrian and the price implications will only have to do with public sentiment and overreactions.
(bold added)
There is plenty of added value.


How are they offering extra value to their investors? "The ease of investing in Bitcoin without worrying about..." is like saying "pay me because you are too stupid to do this on your own." They are essentially trying to make money on Bitcoin being too mystical for investors to touch on their own without a jungle guide (to use Michael Lewis' terminology).

Did you even read my post?

How about not having to send their personal information to offshore companies? How about not having to worry about the integrity of those offshore companies? Also it's not about them being too stupid, it's about them not having to spend time learning about wallets and all the security needed to protect them. This is a MASSIVE convenience to them, and offers a lot more safety to their identity and safety to their coins. There is a lot of value in those, especially when it comes to investors of that caliber.

The fact that they won't have liquidity in one of the most volatile currency market should make any accredited investor explore ways of doing this more cheaply for themselves.

I work directly with accredited investors every day and would not suggest that they inquire on this trust. They are smart, self-motivated learners that have become wealthy by not throwing money to intermediaries.

If you work everyday with accredited investors than you should have a very strong understanding of how important protecting their identity is. This alone provides a massive amount of value to what SecondMarket is doing. No one is saying that owning bitcoins directly doesn't come with benefits, but going through SecondMarket also has unique benefits that add value, particularly for people with high net worth or those who aren't very technically adept and/or feel safer going through SM than trying to protect their Bitcoins on their own.
Jumpy
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September 26, 2013, 05:59:54 AM
 #27

Note that this trust will almost assuredly be limited to accredited investors, which means those who make at least $250K a year or have a net worth over $1 million dollars.

Luckily, people with that much money are probably smart enough not to pay someone else to make transactions with bitcoins with NO ADDED VALUE.

As such, my guess is that the AUM for this trust will remain pedestrian and the price implications will only have to do with public sentiment and overreactions.
(bold added)
There is plenty of added value.


How are they offering extra value to their investors? "The ease of investing in Bitcoin without worrying about..." is like saying "pay me because you are too stupid to do this on your own." They are essentially trying to make money on Bitcoin being too mystical for investors to touch on their own without a jungle guide (to use Michael Lewis' terminology).

Did you even read my post?

How about not having to send their personal information to offshore companies? How about not having to worry about the integrity of those offshore companies? Also it's not about them being too stupid, it's about them not having to spend time learning about wallets and all the security needed to protect them. This is a MASSIVE convenience to them, and offers a lot more safety to their identity and safety to their coins. There is a lot of value in those, especially when it comes to investors of that caliber.

The fact that they won't have liquidity in one of the most volatile currency market should make any accredited investor explore ways of doing this more cheaply for themselves.

I work directly with accredited investors every day and would not suggest that they inquire on this trust. They are smart, self-motivated learners that have become wealthy by not throwing money to intermediaries.

If you work everyday with accredited investors than you should have a very strong understanding of how important protecting their identity is. This alone provides a massive amount of value to what SecondMarket is doing. No one is saying that owning bitcoins directly doesn't come with benefits, but going through SecondMarket also has unique benefits that add value, particularly for people with high net worth or those who aren't very technically adept and/or feel safer going through SM than trying to protect their Bitcoins on their own.

I think we can agree to disagree. My opinion is that people mistake millionaires for sitting on their butts and too lazy to do actual work, but the people that I work with (at least) do not fall under that category.

[In a Monty Python voice] "a'ight. We'll call it a draw."

/end argument

Ares
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September 26, 2013, 06:07:15 AM
 #28

Note that this trust will almost assuredly be limited to accredited investors, which means those who make at least $250K a year or have a net worth over $1 million dollars.

Luckily, people with that much money are probably smart enough not to pay someone else to make transactions with bitcoins with NO ADDED VALUE.

As such, my guess is that the AUM for this trust will remain pedestrian and the price implications will only have to do with public sentiment and overreactions.
(bold added)
There is plenty of added value.


How are they offering extra value to their investors? "The ease of investing in Bitcoin without worrying about..." is like saying "pay me because you are too stupid to do this on your own." They are essentially trying to make money on Bitcoin being too mystical for investors to touch on their own without a jungle guide (to use Michael Lewis' terminology).

Did you even read my post?

How about not having to send their personal information to offshore companies? How about not having to worry about the integrity of those offshore companies? Also it's not about them being too stupid, it's about them not having to spend time learning about wallets and all the security needed to protect them. This is a MASSIVE convenience to them, and offers a lot more safety to their identity and safety to their coins. There is a lot of value in those, especially when it comes to investors of that caliber.

The fact that they won't have liquidity in one of the most volatile currency market should make any accredited investor explore ways of doing this more cheaply for themselves.

I work directly with accredited investors every day and would not suggest that they inquire on this trust. They are smart, self-motivated learners that have become wealthy by not throwing money to intermediaries.

If you work everyday with accredited investors than you should have a very strong understanding of how important protecting their identity is. This alone provides a massive amount of value to what SecondMarket is doing. No one is saying that owning bitcoins directly doesn't come with benefits, but going through SecondMarket also has unique benefits that add value, particularly for people with high net worth or those who aren't very technically adept and/or feel safer going through SM than trying to protect their Bitcoins on their own.

I think we can agree to disagree. My opinion is that people mistake millionaires for sitting on their butts and too lazy to do actual work, but the people that I work with (at least) do not fall under that category.

[In a Monty Python voice] "a'ight. We'll call it a draw."

/end argument
And my opinion is that the value of not having to disclose personal information to offshore "shady" companies will outweigh the benefits for direct ownership for a lot of wealthy investors.

I suppose a draw seems a fitting end.


Jumpy
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September 26, 2013, 06:13:14 AM
 #29

The main reason for above draw should be noted as the fact that so many nested quotes give me a headache.  Tongue

Ares
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September 26, 2013, 06:30:10 AM
 #30

The main reason for above draw should be noted as the fact that so many nested quotes give me a headache.  Tongue

And I agreed simply to save you embarassment
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September 26, 2013, 07:48:08 AM
 #31

They don't cost anything to handle or store.

says the guy that stores his bitcoin on someone elses web server.

even if I were to put them in blockchain.info wallet or some other site instead of just in a cold wallet address how is that costing me?
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September 26, 2013, 07:53:43 AM
 #32

Note that this trust will almost assuredly be limited to accredited investors, which means those who make at least $250K a year or have a net worth over $1 million dollars.

Luckily, people with that much money are probably smart enough not to pay someone else to make transactions with bitcoins with NO ADDED VALUE.

As such, my guess is that the AUM for this trust will remain pedestrian and the price implications will only have to do with public sentiment and overreactions.
(bold added)
There is plenty of added value.


How are they offering extra value to their investors? "The ease of investing in Bitcoin without worrying about..." is like saying "pay me because you are too stupid to do this on your own." They are essentially trying to make money on Bitcoin being too mystical for investors to touch on their own without a jungle guide (to use Michael Lewis' terminology).

Did you even read my post?

How about not having to send their personal information to offshore companies? How about not having to worry about the integrity of those offshore companies? Also it's not about them being too stupid, it's about them not having to spend time learning about wallets and all the security needed to protect them. This is a MASSIVE convenience to them, and offers a lot more safety to their identity and safety to their coins. There is a lot of value in those, especially when it comes to investors of that caliber.
Then they will learn super quick how MASSIVELY convenient it will be for someone at this trust to lose or steal the private key to all those coins.
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September 26, 2013, 08:53:05 AM
 #33

Then they will learn super quick how MASSIVELY convenient it will be for someone at this trust to lose or steal the private key to all those coins.
Not really.  When you steal Bitcoins from someone, nothing happens.  But when you steal assets from a publicly traded trust, you go to jail.  All they need is someone who's proficient enough to safeguard the keys.  If they lose money to a hacker, it won't just be "oops".  It'll be a monumental blunder.

This is the first step toward moving Bitcoin out of its infancy and getting it widely accepted.  It won't replace the banking industry; the industry is too big and important.  But it'll mesh with it, and eventually might help promote a cashless society.
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September 26, 2013, 09:23:39 AM
 #34

I'll be surprised if this trust has any affect at all. Unlike an ETF, you have to be accredited to invest. Second Market isn't a huge company and they don't have a huge investor base.

I do not think this Investment Trust will have much bearing at all on the market or market prices. In fact, I'm pretty damn sure of it.

At best, its just one more tiny step forward in building a foundation and reputation for bitcoin.

If you haven't heard about what is happening with GAME, check it out.  It's revolutionizing gaming. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1266597.0
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September 26, 2013, 09:26:51 AM
 #35

It's may be the  catalyst, I think 50/50 chances of this news affecting the price. Depends on how many and what kind (popular investor Names?) of investors purchase BITs.

Looking to review Bitcoin / Crypto mining Hardware.
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September 26, 2013, 09:33:33 AM
 #36

do i understand this correctly: the trust already has purchased those coins and now some deep pockets can invest into bitoin? if they sell the shares quick, they might buy more bitcoins ?

is it possible that this fund was the whale that drove price up in july/august ?

if so, then it will not affect price short term.

if they have to still buy the coins it will push the price to +150 $ gox.
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September 26, 2013, 09:44:38 AM
 #37

is it possible that this fund was the whale that drove price up in july/august ?

This is exactly, what I was thinking as well.

Overall I'm unsure if this will get the market to move again.. been very quiet lately, but we all know that things can change in a heartbeat in btc-world
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September 26, 2013, 10:10:24 AM
 #38

do i understand this correctly: the trust already has purchased those coins and now some deep pockets can invest into bitoin? if they sell the shares quick, they might buy more bitcoins ?

Yes, if they sell out they have to buy more bitcoins.


is it possible that this fund was the whale that drove price up in july/august ?

No, they have only bought 17,800 BTC so far. But people who knew that this was going to happen can have bought large amounts.


17,800 BTC is nothing. They will start to buy more soon  Cheesy
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September 26, 2013, 10:20:25 AM
 #39

I work directly with accredited investors every day and would not suggest that they inquire on this trust.

What would you suggest to them?
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September 26, 2013, 10:41:03 AM
 #40

I've seen lots of clueless or manipulative posts in this thread so let me clue you in:

Secondmarket is same platform that gave investors access to Facebook(pre-IPO) and Twitter. It's widely known and respected platform on Wall Street. The Bitcoin Investment Trust is operated by Secondmarket, being their top investment at the moment.

You can already read news about this trust on Markewatch, Forbes, or Wall Street Journal. The Bitcoin Investment Trust has plenty of big wealthy investors lined up to buy into this fund.

The $2mil Secondmarket put into the fund it's just seed money, something to get the party started. It's peanuts to provide enough coins for first investors.

Secondmarket only caters to wealthy individuals, trusts or VCs, not small players. But that's where the money is actually, not with the 1%.

Wealthy investors don't give a shit about doing complicated crap on shady Bitcoin exchanges where only tech savvy geeks feel comfortable. Why do you think 99% of this community is tech savvy white male? They won't have a problem paying 1-2% maintenance fee for that service. They're doing it with GLD and other ETFs and they're perfectly fine with it. Why do you think Soros, Paulson and others would rather own GLD than buying gold themselves and storing it? Do you think you're smarter than them? Ron Paul, for example, owns GDX gold miners ETF. He pays a maintenance fee for doing so. Do you think he's stupid for doing it when he can just buy the miners in that ETF?

Impact on Bitcoin price will be SIGNIFICANT.


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