Study: Everyone hates environmentalists and feminists

[Spendulus]

...
How inadequate and limited in vision you are, when you can't even consider the possibility of us striving to be able to create entire artificial environments all on our own from scratch. Preserving species near extition simply by backing up their DNA for future cloning, growing food and renewable resources through genetic modification and new technological breakthroughs, terraforming entire planets, and creating biodomes and sustainable ecosystems, able to keep us and a few other select species alive indefinitely in space.

The  that comes from some rare species going extinct doesn't feel quite as  when we can just "print" more of them in DNA sequencers.

+1

Why the +1? Is it because you are also not armed with all the information out there?

Because Rassah's exposition of "arming with information" trumps your dark vision?

[FirstAscent]

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How inadequate and limited in vision you are, when you can't even consider the possibility of us striving to be able to create entire artificial environments all on our own from scratch. Preserving species near extition simply by backing up their DNA for future cloning, growing food and renewable resources through genetic modification and new technological breakthroughs, terraforming entire planets, and creating biodomes and sustainable ecosystems, able to keep us and a few other select species alive indefinitely in space.

The  that comes from some rare species going extinct doesn't feel quite as  when we can just "print" more of them in DNA sequencers.

+1

Why the +1? Is it because you are also not armed with all the information out there?

Because Rassah's exposition of "arming with information" trumps your dark vision?

Explain how. Explain why my vision is dark. Explain how Rassah's vision is wonderful. Factor in the information I have freely provided to you in this post, which is a lot more than you have. In fact, you have provided no information, nor demonstrated any knowledge about the environment.

[RodeoX]

I like environmentalists and feminists. Here in Madison everyone I meet is one or the other, or both. 

[Spendulus]

....Explain why my vision is dark. Explain how Rassah's vision is wonderful. Factor in the information I have freely provided to you in this post, which is a lot more than you have. In fact, you have provided no information, nor demonstrated any knowledge about the environment.

Generally, the one who makes the extraordinary claim must support it.

What I may know about water, aerosol particle formation, deep ocean heat, oxygen isotopes, upper stratosphere heat exchange, Naviar Stokes modeling of turbulence, mathematics of chaotic behavior, etc, isn't relevant one bit to the discussion.

Your vision is dark because of it's premise that some (you) know best and may self-affirm their right to control others' behavior. 

This has not worked out very well, historically.  Some of the other people have made some very good comments in this thread, by the way. 

[FirstAscent]

....Explain why my vision is dark. Explain how Rassah's vision is wonderful. Factor in the information I have freely provided to you in this post, which is a lot more than you have. In fact, you have provided no information, nor demonstrated any knowledge about the environment.

Generally, the one who makes the extraordinary claim must support it.

What I may know about water, aerosol particle formation, deep ocean heat, oxygen isotopes, upper stratosphere heat exchange, Naviar Stokes modeling of turbulence, mathematics of chaotic behavior, etc, isn't relevant one bit to the discussion.

Your vision is dark because of it's premise that some (you) know best and may self-affirm their right to control others' behavior. 

This has not worked out very well, historically.  Some of the other people have made some very good comments in this thread, by the way. 

The most extraordinary claim I've seen so far is Rassah's. So, therefore, please feel free to attack as best you can environmental controls, regulations, laws, designated wildernesses, and so on.

[crumbs]

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Your vision is dark because of it's premise that some (you) know best and may self-affirm their right to control others' behavior.  

This has not worked out very well, historically. ...  

Hasn't worked out well compared to what?   Where can i marvel at the environmental mavericks "Preserving species near extition simply by backing up their DNA for future cloning ... terraforming entire planets, and creating biodomes and sustainable ecosystems, able to keep us and a few other select species alive indefinitely in space"?  

Or is that just empty verbiage? 

[FirstAscent]

...
Your vision is dark because of it's premise that some (you) know best and may self-affirm their right to control others' behavior.  

This has not worked out very well, historically. ...  

Hasn't worked out well compared to what?   Where can i marvel at the environmental mavericks "Preserving species near extition simply by backing up their DNA for future cloning ... terraforming entire planets, and creating biodomes and sustainable ecosystems, able to keep us and a few other select species alive indefinitely in space"?  

Or is that just empty verbiage?  

Well said. The garbage that spews from various fantasists in this forum is rather amazing, especially when it is bolstered by others as being informed, effective and practical.

Here's some truth for most of you: the environment needs some serious help in being preserved against the everyday effects which are destroying it.

And as I've been saying, if you are one of those fantasists, then you you don't really have a point unless you actually get educated about the environment.

[NewLiberty]

Both these movements are artificially driven by the state. Basically an excuse for socialism; increased state power.

Not entirely state power, but yes often.
On my own and with friends, built an electric car, solar paneled my home, have a negative carbon profile.  Am american.
The government didn't do it, but they do support it.  Possibly because it reduces the impetus to spend on military to get foreign oil.

Reputedly if you factor in the military costs and foreign aid costs into our gas costs, our gas is the most expensive on the planet.

I figure that on an individual level, the easiest way to reduce the government is to obsolete them within the domain of things you can affect in your life and home, and govern ones self well.  The government "shutdown" could last forever for all that it matters to me, has no impact.  Neither did the "sequester".

I love women, but would probably consider myself a humanist more than a feminist, and not at all political.  Why be exclusive?  

I just don't think the government is generally as good at solving problems as people are.  I. Kant's advice: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law." does not presuppose that we need such laws, in fact we clearly don't if folks had good philosophical underpinnings.

[crumbs]

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I just don't think the government is generally as good at solving problems as people are.
...

What you seem to miss is Teh Gobmint *is* people solving problems.  It didn't magically appear, it wasn't imposed by aliens.  It was mankind's solution -- a tool made to solve problems.  The fact that this tool is universally present tells us ether:
a.  It's a good & effective way to solve problems or
b.  People can't solve problems for sour apples, making stupit n00b mistaeks, like the governments.

[Spendulus]

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I just don't think the government is generally as good at solving problems as people are.
...

What you seem to miss is Teh Gobmint *is* people solving problems.  It didn't magically appear, it wasn't imposed by aliens.  It was mankind's solution -- a tool made to solve problems.  The fact that this tool is universally present tells us ether:
a.  It's a good & effective way to solve problems or
b.  People can't solve problems for sour apples, making stupit n00b mistaeks, like the governments.

No, maybe he didn't miss that.  And maybe you are simply wrong.  The "government" is not people solving problems.  That would be classified as one subset of activity.  Another would be "government" NOT solving problems.  And yet another would be govenrment creating problems, intentionally and unintentionally.

So forth and so on.  And throughout history, from time to time governments collapse due to their own problems and inefficiencies, and at other times thrive.  Your (a) and (b) are not actually descriptive.

[Spendulus]

....Explain why my vision is dark. Explain how Rassah's vision is wonderful. Factor in the information I have freely provided to you in this post, which is a lot more than you have. In fact, you have provided no information, nor demonstrated any knowledge about the environment.

Generally, the one who makes the extraordinary claim must support it.

What I may know about water, aerosol particle formation, deep ocean heat, oxygen isotopes, upper stratosphere heat exchange, Naviar Stokes modeling of turbulence, mathematics of chaotic behavior, etc, isn't relevant one bit to the discussion.

Your vision is dark because of it's premise that some (you) know best and may self-affirm their right to control others' behavior.  

This has not worked out very well, historically.  Some of the other people have made some very good comments in this thread, by the way.  

.....please feel free to attack as best you can environmental controls, regulations, laws, designated wildernesses, and so on.

This is called in debate "shifting the goalposts".  I reject it as an answer.  You asked what I thought was "dark" about your vision, and I tried to answer clearly and without any personal attack. 

[crumbs]

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I just don't think the government is generally as good at solving problems as people are.
...

What you seem to miss is Teh Gobmint *is* people solving problems.  It didn't magically appear, it wasn't imposed by aliens.  It was mankind's solution -- a tool made to solve problems.  The fact that this tool is universally present tells us ether:
a.  It's a good & effective way to solve problems or
b.  People can't solve problems for sour apples, making stupit n00b mistaeks, like the governments.

No, maybe he didn't miss that.  And maybe you are simply wrong.  The "government" is not people solving problems.  That would be classified as one subset of activity.  Another would be "government" NOT solving problems.  And yet another would be govenrment creating problems, intentionally and unintentionally.

So forth and so on.  And throughout history, from time to time governments collapse due to their own problems and inefficiencies, and at other times thrive.  Your (a) and (b) are not actually descriptive.

Before going off on another tirade of "Y I Haet Mah Govirmint," please explain how governments came to be, if not through people's epic problem-solving skillz.  Be specific.

If people created a wretched abortion by creating Teh Goment, they obviously can't be trusted with open flame or sharp objects, and must be governed.  Q.E.D.

[FirstAscent]

....Explain why my vision is dark. Explain how Rassah's vision is wonderful. Factor in the information I have freely provided to you in this post, which is a lot more than you have. In fact, you have provided no information, nor demonstrated any knowledge about the environment.

Generally, the one who makes the extraordinary claim must support it.

What I may know about water, aerosol particle formation, deep ocean heat, oxygen isotopes, upper stratosphere heat exchange, Naviar Stokes modeling of turbulence, mathematics of chaotic behavior, etc, isn't relevant one bit to the discussion.

Your vision is dark because of it's premise that some (you) know best and may self-affirm their right to control others' behavior.  

This has not worked out very well, historically.  Some of the other people have made some very good comments in this thread, by the way.  

.....please feel free to attack as best you can environmental controls, regulations, laws, designated wildernesses, and so on.

This is called in debate "shifting the goalposts".  I reject it as an answer.  You asked what I thought was "dark" about your vision, and I tried to answer clearly and without any personal attack.  

Hello? Anybody home? You made statements that my vision is dark because of control. So I pointed out those controls and asked you to attack them. I guess you can't. Probably due to lack of knowledge. Thus you fall back on your ineffectual memes, which of course, aren't indicative of thought or knowledge, but parroting, repeating what your idols say.

[NewLiberty]

...
I just don't think the government is generally as good at solving problems as people are.
...

What you seem to miss is Teh Gobmint *is* people solving problems.  It didn't magically appear, it wasn't imposed by aliens.  It was mankind's solution -- a tool made to solve problems.  The fact that this tool is universally present tells us ether:
a.  It's a good & effective way to solve problems or
b.  People can't solve problems for sour apples, making stupit n00b mistaeks, like the governments.

I didn't miss that at all.  Government solutions are by necessity imposed top-down and non-voluntarily, with exceptional amounts of overhead. 
It uses big hammers to hit little nails.  It is generally the most wasteful way to get something done and is the most useful for only the most intractable of problems.  So yes A: Government is the least-bad way to solve otherwise intractable problems, and thus necessary

and B: I would trust a person who likes to make applesauce with sour apples than I would a government to do so.

When folks run to government for every little thing, they empower it and dis-empower themselves with tragic result.

[crumbs]

...
I just don't think the government is generally as good at solving problems as people are.
...

What you seem to miss is Teh Gobmint *is* people solving problems.  It didn't magically appear, it wasn't imposed by aliens.  It was mankind's solution -- a tool made to solve problems.  The fact that this tool is universally present tells us ether:
a.  It's a good & effective way to solve problems or
b.  People can't solve problems for sour apples, making stupit n00b mistaeks, like the governments.

I didn't miss that at all.  Government solutions are by necessity imposed top-down and non-voluntarily, with exceptional amounts of overhead.  
It uses big hammers to hit little nails.  It is generally the most wasteful way to get something done and is the most useful for only the most intractable of problems.  So yes A: Government is the least-bad way to solve otherwise intractable problems, and thus necessary

There's a less contrived way of saying "least-bad" -- "BEST."

and B: I would trust a person who likes to make applesauce with sour apples than I would a government to do so.

When folks run to government for every little thing, they empower it and dis-empower themselves with tragic result.

As far as i know, government doesn't make applesauce from sour apples, or any other kind.  They might stop you from selling me rotten apple puree with rat feces, but that's fine by me.  Let's keep this real.  And "dis-empower"?!  WTF does that even mean? 

[Spendulus]

....Explain why my vision is dark. Explain how Rassah's vision is wonderful. Factor in the information I have freely provided to you in this post, which is a lot more than you have. In fact, you have provided no information, nor demonstrated any knowledge about the environment.

Generally, the one who makes the extraordinary claim must support it.

What I may know about water, aerosol particle formation, deep ocean heat, oxygen isotopes, upper stratosphere heat exchange, Naviar Stokes modeling of turbulence, mathematics of chaotic behavior, etc, isn't relevant one bit to the discussion.

Your vision is dark because of it's premise that some (you) know best and may self-affirm their right to control others' behavior.  

This has not worked out very well, historically.  Some of the other people have made some very good comments in this thread, by the way.  

.....please feel free to attack as best you can environmental controls, regulations, laws, designated wildernesses, and so on.

This is called in debate "shifting the goalposts".  I reject it as an answer.  You asked what I thought was "dark" about your vision, and I tried to answer clearly and without any personal attack.  

Hello? Anybody home? You made statements that my vision is dark because of control. So I pointed out those controls and asked you to attack them. I guess you can't. Probably due to lack of knowledge. Thus you fall back on your ineffectual memes, which of course, aren't indicative of thought or knowledge, but parroting, repeating what your idols say.

Oh.  So as opposed to 'your control', you would like to take the stand that the government's controls are what I must criticize?  But they are not 'your controls', because they allow massive amounts of drilling and shale oil extraction which increases every year.  They allow massive amounts of carbon 'pollution' without any real control, in spite of some threats and hand waving by the EPA and the current administration.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that you were a true environmentalist.  And such a person would never take the stand that the environmental position of the US government was his position.

And this kind of talk -

I guess you can't. Probably due to lack of knowledge. Thus you fall back on your ineffectual memes, which of course, aren't indicative of thought or knowledge, but parroting, repeating what your idols say.

Is pretty laughable, given that I've just spent about two years on a major effort, one sizable part of which has been studying radical environmentalism, it's leaders, methods, tactics, strategies, and it's successes and mistakes.  It's not the most interesting subject, one could pick better. 

[FirstAscent]

....Explain why my vision is dark. Explain how Rassah's vision is wonderful. Factor in the information I have freely provided to you in this post, which is a lot more than you have. In fact, you have provided no information, nor demonstrated any knowledge about the environment.

Generally, the one who makes the extraordinary claim must support it.

What I may know about water, aerosol particle formation, deep ocean heat, oxygen isotopes, upper stratosphere heat exchange, Naviar Stokes modeling of turbulence, mathematics of chaotic behavior, etc, isn't relevant one bit to the discussion.

Your vision is dark because of it's premise that some (you) know best and may self-affirm their right to control others' behavior.  

This has not worked out very well, historically.  Some of the other people have made some very good comments in this thread, by the way.  

.....please feel free to attack as best you can environmental controls, regulations, laws, designated wildernesses, and so on.

This is called in debate "shifting the goalposts".  I reject it as an answer.  You asked what I thought was "dark" about your vision, and I tried to answer clearly and without any personal attack.  

Hello? Anybody home? You made statements that my vision is dark because of control. So I pointed out those controls and asked you to attack them. I guess you can't. Probably due to lack of knowledge. Thus you fall back on your ineffectual memes, which of course, aren't indicative of thought or knowledge, but parroting, repeating what your idols say.

Oh.  So as opposed to 'your control', you would like to take the stand that the government's controls are what I must criticize?  But they are not 'your controls', because they allow massive amounts of drilling and shale oil extraction which increases every year.  They allow massive amounts of carbon 'pollution' without any real control, in spite of some threats and hand waving by the EPA and the current administration.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that you were a true environmentalist.  And such a person would never take the stand that the environmental position of the US government was his position.

And this kind of talk -

I guess you can't. Probably due to lack of knowledge. Thus you fall back on your ineffectual memes, which of course, aren't indicative of thought or knowledge, but parroting, repeating what your idols say.

Is pretty laughable, given that I've just spent about two years on a major effort, one sizable part of which has been studying radical environmentalism, it's leaders, methods, tactics, strategies, and it's successes and mistakes.  It's not the most interesting subject, one could pick better. 

Shooting blanks, are you? Instead of being a blowhard and a parrot, try to shine amongst the sea of stupidity here, and cogently address what you thought you were addressing. Here's a hint on what you were trying to address, but failed as you decided to take a stab at avoidance: Please feel free to attack as best you can environmental controls, regulations, laws, designated wildernesses, and so on.

Once you've done that, we can move forward, rather than engage in this ridiculous conversation where you continually reinforce that you are decidedly not capable of doing what you think you can.

[NewLiberty]

...
I just don't think the government is generally as good at solving problems as people are.
...

What you seem to miss is Teh Gobmint *is* people solving problems.  It didn't magically appear, it wasn't imposed by aliens.  It was mankind's solution -- a tool made to solve problems.  The fact that this tool is universally present tells us ether:
a.  It's a good & effective way to solve problems or
b.  People can't solve problems for sour apples, making stupit n00b mistaeks, like the governments.

No, maybe he didn't miss that.  And maybe you are simply wrong.  The "government" is not people solving problems.  That would be classified as one subset of activity.  Another would be "government" NOT solving problems.  And yet another would be govenrment creating problems, intentionally and unintentionally.

So forth and so on.  And throughout history, from time to time governments collapse due to their own problems and inefficiencies, and at other times thrive.  Your (a) and (b) are not actually descriptive.

Before going off on another tirade of "Y I Haet Mah Govirmint," please explain how governments came to be, if not through people's epic problem-solving skillz.  Be specific.

If people created a wretched abortion by creating Teh Goment, they obviously can't be trusted with open flame or sharp objects, and must be governed.  Q.E.D.

Governments come to be, from an army killing off all the competing lawmakers of the geography.

[DoomDumas]

Im Canadian and environmentalist !
They did not ask me for this survey ;P

[crumbs]

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What I may know about water, aerosol particle formation, deep ocean heat, oxygen isotopes, upper stratosphere heat exchange, Naviar Stokes modeling of turbulence, mathematics of chaotic behavior, etc, isn't relevant one bit to the discussion.
....
Is pretty laughable, given that I've just spent about two years on a major effort, one sizable part of which has been studying radical environmentalism, it's leaders, methods, tactics, strategies, and it's successes and mistakes.  It's not the most interesting subject, one could pick better. 

"What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fu..."

yeah.