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Author Topic: BFL Monarch update  (Read 13790 times)
reactor
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November 03, 2013, 03:28:31 PM
 #21

At least they are admitting shit can happen and throw things off.

 So nothing has changed then over the last two years, is what you saying ?

 ... Waiting for Josh to stop by and pontificate about how Bitcoin works ...

Yeah, but the terms are pretty clear about the risk involved:

"This is a Pre-Order product which is not yet shipping.  If you're uncomfortable waiting until the development is complete and the product is shipped, do NOT pre-order this product. Perhaps undesirable, but this is a pre-order market.  Customers flatly demand to get in line for the new technology before it's finished development.  This has created a lot of drama for the manufacturers but it's something we simply have to deal with.  All manufacturers in this space have experienced some degree of delay with their first generation ASIC.  Every last one of them, so we're reluctant to give a specific delivery date.  However, this is our second generation, so we have much greater clarity on the process and we feel our timeline to begin shipments towards the end of the year is solid."

(Underline added for emphasis, bold is from BFL site)

In other words, do not order if you can't afford the risk of pre-order, experimental hardware being delayed.  Plain and simple.  So for however much people want to bitch and moan, BFL has plainly stated that they have an estimated timeline, they may not meet the timeline, so only order if you are okay with that risk.  Otherwise, BFL's public record is quite public, so if people want to order then let them. Same for Avalon, I still see posts of people asking about hardware and refunds, so it's at your own risk to order from either company as their past is plainly known. 
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November 03, 2013, 04:29:55 PM
 #22

They never seem to mention the possibility of the silicon failing testing and needing a respin.

Their 65nm chips needed 2 respins before they were able to ship anything.

Logically 28nm is a good bit harder to get right than 65nm.

"All safe deposit boxes in banks or financial institutions have been sealed... and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of the I.R.S." - President F.D. Roosevelt, 1933
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November 03, 2013, 05:29:48 PM
 #23

Thanks for posting - I guess we'll see how it goes!

1MANaTeEZoH4YkgMYz61E5y4s9BYhAuUjG
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November 03, 2013, 05:36:57 PM
 #24

"unforseen problems and delays can and do happen and we will do our best to alert everyone to them when we encounter them"


I agree, first unforseen problem is you guys bought from BFL. .... Haha i Kill myself....

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November 03, 2013, 07:04:18 PM
 #25

PSA was released to the public:

HashTrade is the company who bought $1 million worth of products from BFL. buy their contracts at your own risk

ok
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November 03, 2013, 09:05:57 PM
 #26

Their 65nm chips needed 2 respins before they were able to ship anything.

Do you have a source for that? Not saying its not true, I just never heard it. For the record, a respin means redoing one or more of the masks in the maskset.
what I read was that they had issues mostly with the chip packaging,  but you can change packaging without redoing the mask, you can even do it with wafers that are already produced (but not yet packaged).
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November 03, 2013, 09:19:21 PM
 #27

PSA was released to the public:

HashTrade is the company who bought $1 million worth of products from BFL. buy their contracts at your own risk
http://www.hashtrade.com/
appears to be the site


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Bitrated user: Vagnavs.
af_newbie
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November 03, 2013, 09:20:29 PM
 #28

Their 65nm chips needed 2 respins before they were able to ship anything.

Do you have a source for that? Not saying its not true, I just never heard it. For the record, a respin means redoing one or more of the masks in the maskset.
what I read was that they had issues mostly with the chip packaging,  but you can change packaging without redoing the mask, you can even do it with wafers that are already produced (but not yet packaged).

They suppose to start delivery in Oct 2012.  From October to April they were doing what?  At least 2 respins, IMHO.
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November 03, 2013, 09:21:26 PM
 #29

PSA was released to the public:

HashTrade is the company who bought $1 million worth of products from BFL. buy their contracts at your own risk
http://www.hashtrade.com/
appears to be the site

cex.io clone?
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November 03, 2013, 09:27:05 PM
 #30

They suppose to start delivery in Oct 2012.  From October to April they were doing what?  At least 2 respins, IMHO.

Their FPGA took about as long, if not longer to materialize. Yet I doubt they "respun" someone else's FPGA Smiley.

BTW, IIRC they received their first silicon (which was wirebonded for testing) in late February or early March. A respin takes 6-8 weeks at least, its basically redoing the tapeout, and waiting for new wafers to be processed, and thats after you diagnosed and fixed the problem. Realistically, more like 10 weeks.  It would have been impossible to do 2 respins in that timeframe. Even one seems impossible.

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November 03, 2013, 09:41:49 PM
 #31

Their 65nm chips needed 2 respins before they were able to ship anything.

Do you have a source for that? Not saying its not true, I just never heard it. For the record, a respin means redoing one or more of the masks in the maskset.
what I read was that they had issues mostly with the chip packaging,  but you can change packaging without redoing the mask, you can even do it with wafers that are already produced (but not yet packaged).

Bogart speaks the truth.
From Josh words I count 2 respin, but I suspect 3.
Josh like to exaggerate things and spread news all over the place 24/7.
At one point he was quiet.
The engines didn't work as planned.
Long time no news in this period
They hoped the engines will work at 500 mh/s at a certain power envelop.
It turned out that the engines will max at 250 mh/s with a greater power usage than the final product.
So I suspect another respin here.

Originally they hoped to design a chip with 16 engines running at 500 mh/s each. 16*500mh/s=8Gh/s.
8 chips per single 8*8=64 Gh/s. at less than 1 watt per Gh/s was the plan.
We all know now that they need double the ammount of chips at a greater power envelop.

smoothie
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November 03, 2013, 09:45:20 PM
 #32

Any updates Josh gives always add 9 months to it and that's much more accurate of a timeline. So he says January, try next september.

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November 03, 2013, 09:48:05 PM
 #33

Bogart speaks the truth.
From Josh words I count 2 respin, but I suspect 3.
Josh like to exaggerate things and spread news all over the place 24/7.
At one point he was quiet.
The engines didn't work as planned.
Long time no news in this period
They hoped the engines will work at 500 mh/s at a certain power envelop.
It turned out that the engines will max at 250 mh/s with a greater power usage than the final product.
So I suspect another respin here.

Originally they hoped to design a chip with 16 engines running at 500 mh/s each. 16*500mh/s=8Gh/s.
8 chips per single 8*8=64 Gh/s. at less than 1 watt per Gh/s was the plan.
We all know now that they need double the ammount of chips at a greater power envelop.

You may suspect it, but Ive not seen any evidence (what "Josh words" are you referring to?) and your own logic argues against it, since the chips were delivered at 250Mhz, the same speed they observed in first silicon in late February. More over as I argued above, the timing just doesnt leave room for one, much less 3 respins, unless you want believe they received silicon back in 2012 and didnt talk about it.

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November 03, 2013, 09:48:40 PM
 #34

Bitfury and Asicminer did it in one time.
Avalon I don't know, but I think also 1 time.
Asicminer and Avalon use older and proven technology.
I have to applaud for Asicminer, they have just slight more than 100k to pull it off.
Bitfury goal is probably 5 Gh/s per chip.
Although they didn't archieve that, the chip works good enough, no need to respin to save time.

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November 03, 2013, 09:49:03 PM
 #35

we feel our timeline to begin shipments towards the end of the year is solid."

 Respectfully, experience and history on these forums will clearly illustrate that the only thing that is solid, is the density of their bullshit.
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November 03, 2013, 09:53:08 PM
 #36

You can re-read all of Inaba and BFL_Josh posts. I don't have time to search all the messages

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November 03, 2013, 09:58:04 PM
 #37

Quote
You may suspect it, but Ive not seen any evidence (what "Josh words" are you referring to?) and your own logic argues against it, since the chips were delivered at 250Mhz, the same speed they observed in first silicon in late February. More over as I argued above, the timing just doesnt leave room for one, much less 3 respins, unless you want believe they received silicon back in 2012 and didnt talk about it.

You know how the singles originally suppose to look like?

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November 03, 2013, 10:04:00 PM
 #38

You can re-read all of Inaba and BFL_Josh posts. I don't have time to search all the messages

ITs all here:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status-3.html

First hashing around early March as I remembered. No mention of a respin or anything that could be considered a respin. No 8+ week gap either. No time for a respin, let alone 3. Just a long list of fucking up missing design parameters,  packaging, firmware, PCB's, supply chain, software, pretty much everything else you can fuck up. Maybe they did one or several respins for later products, as is often done to improve yields or tweak stuff, but the ones that shipped in April must have been made with the same maskset (ie, no respin) as the one that they published in February/march as their first prototype.  Thus, that is not what caused the delays.
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November 03, 2013, 10:14:22 PM
 #39

Their 65nm chips needed 2 respins before they were able to ship anything.

Do you have a source for that? Not saying its not true, I just never heard it. For the record, a respin means redoing one or more of the masks in the maskset.
what I read was that they had issues mostly with the chip packaging,  but you can change packaging without redoing the mask, you can even do it with wafers that are already produced (but not yet packaged).

The first respin would be from their "diffraction issue", incorrectly called a "refraction issue" by Josh in some earlier discussion:

It's kinda hard to dig up the quotes now, and it doesn't help that BFL's forums keep giving me the CloudFlare 504 error.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/690-13-jan-2013-asic-update-discussion-thread-9.html#post10463

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/251-more-jalapeno-pictures-shipping-update-17-print.html (second post quotes Josh's statement.)

The second being where they claimed to be "adding clock buffers", and at the same time they changed package types:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128019.msg1363605#msg1363605

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November 03, 2013, 10:16:30 PM
 #40

Thank you Bogart for digging it up.

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