GBTC Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer

[mmortal03]

GBTC premium is around 16%.

https://www.neotechdevs.com/gbtc/default.jsp?gbtc_price=%247.73&btc_price=%246%2C568.83#premiums

Time to buy the dip?

Nope, but we're at the lowest premium now in about 20 months, so, time to buy the dip yet?

[mmortal03]

Tone covers GBTC trading at the following timestamp: https://youtu.be/ESo3Y-PMv6c?t=2685

[MrSunshine]

Tone covers GBTC trading at the following timestamp: https://youtu.be/ESo3Y-PMv6c?t=2685

In short he says GBTC has corrected substantially and is oversold, with a very low premium. He also states that the Bitcoin ETF under review by the SEC has an 80% chance of NOT getting approved. He then states he should have logged into his Retirement account and purchased some before stating this in this video. He said that he will log into his retirement account after making the video and buy some GBTC.

[windjc]

Tone covers GBTC trading at the following timestamp: https://youtu.be/ESo3Y-PMv6c?t=2685

In short he says GBTC has corrected substantially and is oversold, with a very low premium. He also states that the Bitcoin ETF under review by the SEC has an 80% chance of NOT getting approved. He then states he should have logged into his Retirement account and purchased some before stating this in this video. He said that he will log into his retirement account after making the video and buy some GBTC.

Why the FUCK is anyone listening to that guy?? If you'd have ever met him personally like I have, you wouldn't ever look at a chart he drew. Ever.

[MrSunshine]

Tone covers GBTC trading at the following timestamp: https://youtu.be/ESo3Y-PMv6c?t=2685

In short he says GBTC has corrected substantially and is oversold, with a very low premium. He also states that the Bitcoin ETF under review by the SEC has an 80% chance of NOT getting approved. He then states he should have logged into his Retirement account and purchased some before stating this in this video. He said that he will log into his retirement account after making the video and buy some GBTC.

Why the FUCK is anyone listening to that guy?? If you'd have ever met him personally like I have, you wouldn't ever look at a chart he drew. Ever.

Well he was right on this GBTC call. He was very critical of GBTC when it was trading at a much higher premium. But he does come across as arrogant for sure.

[mmortal03]

Are we at a discount to BTC now? I need to update my spreadsheet.

[gentlemand]

Tone covers GBTC trading at the following timestamp: https://youtu.be/ESo3Y-PMv6c?t=2685

In short he says GBTC has corrected substantially and is oversold, with a very low premium. He also states that the Bitcoin ETF under review by the SEC has an 80% chance of NOT getting approved. He then states he should have logged into his Retirement account and purchased some before stating this in this video. He said that he will log into his retirement account after making the video and buy some GBTC.

Why the FUCK is anyone listening to that guy?? If you'd have ever met him personally like I have, you wouldn't ever look at a chart he drew. Ever.

Well he was right on this GBTC call. He was very critical of GBTC when it was trading at a much higher premium. But he does come across as arrogant for sure.

His calls for BTC lows were being sneered at comprehensively just a short time ago. Now it's possible they may be totally on point. He's still a silly billy with very creepy hair though.

Since GBTC launched after the low of the previous bubble it's going to be dead interesting to see how it reacts to all this.

[OgNasty]

Are we at a discount to BTC now? I need to update my spreadsheet.

I’m too lazy to do the math myself also. Is it time to load up the Roth IRA yet?

[gentlemand]

https://diar.co/volume-2-issue-47/#3

According to that Grayscale have been continuing to accumulate and now hold 203,000 coins, over 1% of the circulating supply. Wasn't it around the 95,000 level when they launched? To have increased so much as the price went up certainly shows some fortitude from someone.

[Bitcoinaire]

Current premium is 16.29%. The year low was 5.96% on November 14.

[mmortal03]

"203,000 BTC: Grayscale Investments Now Holds Over 1% of Bitcoin's Circulating Supply":
https://www.cryptoglobe.com/latest/2018/12/btc-grayscale-investments-now-holds-over-bitcoin-circulating-supply/

[MrSunshine]

What do you think of the drop Gold for Bitcoin commercial which promotes GBTC?: https://twitter.com/GrayscaleInvest/status/1123664985312378880  I think GBTC would have gone up regardless if it came out. Also it is interesting that GBTC was the most actively traded stock on the OTC on 5/7: https://www.chepicap.com/en/news/9493/grayscale-bitcoin-trust-was-most-actively-traded-stock-today-in-otc-markets.html

[Bitcoinaire]

Big day for GBTC, volume exceeded $141,000,000 today.

Up nearly %19 at 10.21.

[CrazyLoaf]

Fidelity is now blocking new purchases of XBT Provider's BTC and ETH exchange traded notes (ETNs). Tickers for these were COINXBT and COINETH I believe.

Fidelity is not currently forcing sells of these ETNs. This is in comparison to Interactive Brokers which forced sales of these ETNs by a certain date back in 2018, otherwise they would have dumped them on the open market.

Going to be honest, getting a little tired of how fucking hard it is to buy something in a US-based IRA that isn't GBTC with it's stupid premiums (which is near 30% at the moment). And Grayscale's Etherereum *CLASSIC* Trust (ETCG) trades at a laughable 233% premium now, probably due to uninformed people thinking they are actually buying ETH and not ETC.

Does anyone know of any broker open to US IRAs that allows trading in the XBT Provider ETNs ( https://xbtprovider.com/ )? I see that they added ETNs for Litecoin and Ripple now.

As an alternative, has anyone looked at Amun's Crypto ETPs ( https://www.amun.com/ )? I see they have a basket ETP (top 5 crypto assets), and separate ETPs for BTC, ETH, and XRP. Volume looked low though and I am not sure if they market make like XBT Provider does. Also not sure if any US brokers trade them.

I really don't want to go the route of those self-directed LLCs styled as IRAs (like Bitcoin IRA does). There are a myriad of little "gotchas" on these accounts that can cause the whole account to be disallowed.

Before crypto, these accounts were promoted for real estate investors, and there were just as many "gotchas" for them as well. I remember an instance where someone put rentals in a solo 401k. They personally painted one of the rentals without charging the solo 401k for it. I think during an audit this was enough to disallow the *entire* account and put them on the hook for taxes!

If BTC goes to where we all think it is going, I can guarantee there will be a concerted effort to see if any events happened in the past that will cause the tax deferred treatment to be disallowed.

This is a little out of date, but drives home why:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/janetnovack/2014/09/16/retirement-rich-list-gao-estimates-314-taxpayers-have-iras-averaging-258-million-each/#2bfbf39fb32c

You can see there were only 314 taxpayers in 2011 with more than $25mil in an IRA. A scant 25 BTC could be worth as much in the coming years.

An always hungry government will be looking at whatever ways it can to claw back that money. I know some earlier solo 401ks/IRAs for crypto promoted private key ownership, and I think just that will be enough to disallow a lot of the earlier accounts down the line if they are ever looked at.

[windjc]

Fidelity is now blocking new purchases of XBT Provider's BTC and ETH exchange traded notes (ETNs). Tickers for these were COINXBT and COINETH I believe.

Fidelity is not currently forcing sells of these ETNs. This is in comparison to Interactive Brokers which forced sales of these ETNs by a certain date back in 2018, otherwise they would have dumped them on the open market.

Going to be honest, getting a little tired of how fucking hard it is to buy something in a US-based IRA that isn't GBTC with it's stupid premiums (which is near 30% at the moment). And Grayscale's Etherereum *CLASSIC* Trust (ETCG) trades at a laughable 233% premium now, probably due to uninformed people thinking they are actually buying ETH and not ETC.

Does anyone know of any broker open to US IRAs that allows trading in the XBT Provider ETNs ( https://xbtprovider.com/ )? I see that they added ETNs for Litecoin and Ripple now.

As an alternative, has anyone looked at Amun's Crypto ETPs ( https://www.amun.com/ )? I see they have a basket ETP (top 5 crypto assets), and separate ETPs for BTC, ETH, and XRP. Volume looked low though and I am not sure if they market make like XBT Provider does. Also not sure if any US brokers trade them.

I really don't want to go the route of those self-directed LLCs styled as IRAs (like Bitcoin IRA does). There are a myriad of little "gotchas" on these accounts that can cause the whole account to be disallowed.

Before crypto, these accounts were promoted for real estate investors, and there were just as many "gotchas" for them as well. I remember an instance where someone put rentals in a solo 401k. They personally painted one of the rentals without charging the solo 401k for it. I think during an audit this was enough to disallow the *entire* account and put them on the hook for taxes!

If BTC goes to where we all think it is going, I can guarantee there will be a concerted effort to see if any events happened in the past that will cause the tax deferred treatment to be disallowed.

This is a little out of date, but drives home why:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/janetnovack/2014/09/16/retirement-rich-list-gao-estimates-314-taxpayers-have-iras-averaging-258-million-each/#2bfbf39fb32c

You can see there were only 314 taxpayers in 2011 with more than $25mil in an IRA. A scant 25 BTC could be worth as much in the coming years.

An always hungry government will be looking at whatever ways it can to claw back that money. I know some earlier solo 401ks/IRAs for crypto promoted private key ownership, and I think just that will be enough to disallow a lot of the earlier accounts down the line if they are ever looked at.

Anum is legit. Also, have you looked at BitcoinIRA?

[CrazyLoaf]

Anum is legit. Also, have you looked at BitcoinIRA?

Amun has crap volume though (unless I am looking at the wrong site). Many days they have 0 shares traded and they seem to have at most 5k shares (so like $100k-$200k n volume) on other days.

Bitcoin IRA uses a self-directed LLC setup right? Not too comfortable with those for the reasons I outlined above. I don't trust this setup as there are too many rules that I am sure the IRS will have a field day over once BTC is worth enough. An example from Broad Financial:

"Do not apply for overdraft protection or for a line of credit for your account...  by doing so, you will be issuing a personal guarantee on behalf of your solo 401(k) Plan/Trust which is a Prohibited Transaction."

Really stupid rules like that. Most banks automatically apply this, especially if you already have other accounts at the bank.

[windjc]

Anum is legit. Also, have you looked at BitcoinIRA?

Amun has crap volume though (unless I am looking at the wrong site). Many days they have 0 shares traded and they seem to have at most 5k shares (so like $100k-$200k n volume) on other days.

Bitcoin IRA uses a self-directed LLC setup right? Not too comfortable with those for the reasons I outlined above. I don't trust this setup as there are too many rules that I am sure the IRS will have a field day over once BTC is worth enough. An example from Broad Financial:

"Do not apply for overdraft protection or for a line of credit for your account...  by doing so, you will be issuing a personal guarantee on behalf of your solo 401(k) Plan/Trust which is a Prohibited Transaction."

Really stupid rules like that. Most banks automatically apply this, especially if you already have other accounts at the bank.

I believe people have been using self directed LLCs for IRAs for years. Its not a new concept. A friend of mine just set one up for himself for crypto under the guidance of his money manager I believe.

[Bitcoinaire]

Anum is legit. Also, have you looked at BitcoinIRA?

Amun has crap volume though (unless I am looking at the wrong site). Many days they have 0 shares traded and they seem to have at most 5k shares (so like $100k-$200k n volume) on other days.

Bitcoin IRA uses a self-directed LLC setup right? Not too comfortable with those for the reasons I outlined above. I don't trust this setup as there are too many rules that I am sure the IRS will have a field day over once BTC is worth enough. An example from Broad Financial:

"Do not apply for overdraft protection or for a line of credit for your account...  by doing so, you will be issuing a personal guarantee on behalf of your solo 401(k) Plan/Trust which is a Prohibited Transaction."

Really stupid rules like that. Most banks automatically apply this, especially if you already have other accounts at the bank.

Bitcoin IRA is not a self directed LLC setup.

[CrazyLoaf]

Bitcoin IRA is not a self directed LLC setup.

Cool. Their fees were high in the past and maybe they used the LLC setup before.

Honestly, I still prefer XBT Provider's ETNs. The volume and market making on them is fantastic. Any USA broker that allows people to trade them in IRAs?

[windjc]

Bitcoin IRA is not a self directed LLC setup.

Cool. Their fees were high in the past and maybe they used the LLC setup before.

Honestly, I still prefer XBT Provider's ETNs. The volume and market making on them is fantastic. Any USA broker that allows people to trade them in IRAs?

Who are the XBT Provider ETNs through?