GBTC Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer

[Biodom]

Bitcoin IRA is not a self directed LLC setup.

Cool. Their fees were high in the past and maybe they used the LLC setup before.

Honestly, I still prefer XBT Provider's ETNs. The volume and market making on them is fantastic. Any USA broker that allows people to trade them in IRAs?

CXBTF is the symbol.

I bought them on Fidelity (in IRA, had to sign some additional online docs). The trade fee was expensive too.
This ETN is weird as sometimes it is quoted and sometimes not, like today there is no chart in yahoo finance for some reason.
At one point it was suspended for a few months.
I think that SEC "hates" it.
Or, maybe BS has these feelings, lol.

[CrazyLoaf]

At one point it was suspended for a few months.
I think that SEC "hates" it.
Or, maybe BS has these feelings, lol.

Honestly brokers have fucked around on XBT's ETNs to the point that I feel there is some behind the scenes fuckery going on.

Example: Interactive Brokers used to not allow trading on GBTC at all, but actively put out news stories that they were trading XBT. Then when their own BTC futures came out, they stealth blocked XBT trading. Not only that, they planned on dumping everyone's XBT by a certain deadline.

Interactive Brokers is known to dump accounts without limit orders. They were probably sitting on the other end with a fat buy order as they knew exactly how much XBT they would be dumping.

I don't even think they sent out email messages on their plans to delist and dump as I only knew about it by randomly logging into my IB account. Based on the date of the system message, they only gave like a 2 week period between notice and dump.

Same thing with Fidelity. Several news stories were out about them offering XBT trading, and they still offered them for trading even after IB blocked them for a bullshit "not registered under some SEC 1933 act." Now Fidelity is planning to launch their own crypto trading (I think it's active for institutional investors already) and they've blocked XBT. Bullshit yet again.

[gentlemand]

Grayscale launched their ETH thingy, ETHE today. Has anyone noticed that the price their customers/victims are paying is in the region of $580 for 0.09 of ETH derived price exposure? I know it's not ETH itself but comes a time where a premium becomes a full on piss take.

Could that have some sort of knock on effect on the reputation of GBTC?

[CrazyLoaf]

Grayscale launched their ETH thingy, ETHE today. Has anyone noticed that the price their customers/victims are paying is in the region of $580 for 0.09 of ETH derived price exposure? I know it's not ETH itself but comes a time where a premium becomes a full on piss take.

Could that have some sort of knock on effect on the reputation of GBTC?

Fucking insane. Just checked. Price range was $370 - $590 on 3.5k shares volume. That is $1.3mil to $2.1mil in volume. Per their own site, each share is only $27.33 worth of ETH, but idiots are paying up to 2000% premium on this crap.

Going to reiterate my question to everyone. Do any USA brokers allow buying of the XBT Provider ETNs which are reasonably priced and actually have market making? Unlike Grayscale which seems to be loving the insane premiums that they can charge.

Is Amun's ETPs the only option? Volume is low.

Trying to recommend something other than Bitcoin IRA as I think they have high fees and are doing that self-directed LLC crap as I don't think anyone really does custody for IRAs easily at the moment.

[mmortal03]

I just saw this: "GRAYSCALE BITCOIN TRUST TRADING AT 40% PREMIUM; ‘BIG MONEY COMING IN’"
https://bitcoinist.com/grayscale-bitcoin-price-premium-sparks-another-big-move/

[gentlemand]

Here's an interesting titbit, Grayscale are going full Coinbase custody - https://www.forbes.com/sites/billybambrough/2019/08/02/grayscale-to-move-billions-in-bitcoin-ripples-xrp-ethereum-and-litecoin-to-coinbase-in-one-of-the-largest-ever-crypto-transfers/amp/

Let's hope there's no man in the middle when they do their transfer.

[STT]

ETN is a danger word I recognise from the the 2008 crisis, the ETN of some banks were due to expire worthless until a giant bailout was arranged to avoid collapse.   The reason being ETN is a note of debt or simply put a IOU slip from them to you, the price not updating always sounds familiar.

ETF on the other hand is a separate trust to any bank managing or marketing the product, the ownership is by a trust holding not on bank balance sheets, its a far safer asset to have.   ETN relies on your counter party on being perfectly able to repay the debt, you are a creditor holding a cheque hoping they open on monday for you to be paid in effect.

For day trading I guess its fine, but dont think I want ETN held over night and I dont trade enough to want pay to enter and leave a position more then I might otherwise.

[gentlemand]

Giving this a bump as a thread on Reddit pointed out that GBTC now has 351,000 BTC. The last time I paid any attention it was around the 90,000 mark which must've been a long time ago now.

I can't imagine any other entity ever managing to accrue an amount this large in future.

What do we reckon the endgame will be? Will they look to dominate Bitcoin investment and move the coins into different and less clunky wrappers as legislation evolves? Will they have an OTC monster sale? Will consumer demand for GBTC keep them where they are and continually growing?

[exstasie]

Giving this a bump as a thread on Reddit pointed out that GBTC now has 351,000 BTC. The last time I paid any attention it was around the 90,000 mark which must've been a long time ago now.

I can't imagine any other entity ever managing to accrue an amount this large in future.

Just a few months ago, Coinbase held ~983,700 BTC in its cold storage. https://cryptoslate.com/nearly-1-million-bitcoins-worth-8-4-billion-now-held-in-coinbases-cold-storage-wallets/

What do we reckon the endgame will be? Will they look to dominate Bitcoin investment and move the coins into different and less clunky wrappers as legislation evolves? Will they have an OTC monster sale? Will consumer demand for GBTC keep them where they are and continually growing?

Demand (and the premium over NAV) will plummet whenever an ETF finally gets approved. GBTC's management fees are just insane and will be greatly undercut by an ETF.

GBTC is drawing on retail investors who want to invest through traditional and regulated brokers (like E-Trade) and/or with retirement accounts. They are sort of the only game in town for people who don't want to (or can't afford to) juggle CME futures positions. There will be other alternatives in the future that will cut GBTC down in size.

[gentlemand]

Demand (and the premium over NAV) will plummet whenever an ETF finally gets approved. GBTC's management fees are just insane and will be greatly undercut by an ETF.

GBTC is drawing on retail investors who want to invest through traditional and regulated brokers (like E-Trade) and/or with retirement accounts. They are sort of the only game in town for people who don't want to (or can't afford to) juggle CME futures positions. There will be other alternatives in the future that will cut GBTC down in size.

If there's to be a coin backed ETF where would the new player get the coins from? I assume Grayscale will be the first to offer it if the possibility arises. Not sure how it would work with existing GBTC shareholders but they'd probably be happy to convert.

The winkies will be ready too. To be well placed for something like that you had to be in place long before it's ever approved. It'll be fun to watch a scramble but I'm not sure how successful it would be.

Just a few months ago, Coinbase held ~983,700 BTC in its cold storage. https://cryptoslate.com/nearly-1-million-bitcoins-worth-8-4-billion-now-held-in-coinbases-cold-storage-wallets/

But almost all of that belongs to other people. I dunno what GBTC's terms are but I assume you only ever own shares they issue, not the BTC. They may reserve the right to rescind your shares and refund in dollars.

[exstasie]

Demand (and the premium over NAV) will plummet whenever an ETF finally gets approved. GBTC's management fees are just insane and will be greatly undercut by an ETF.

GBTC is drawing on retail investors who want to invest through traditional and regulated brokers (like E-Trade) and/or with retirement accounts. They are sort of the only game in town for people who don't want to (or can't afford to) juggle CME futures positions. There will be other alternatives in the future that will cut GBTC down in size.

If there's to be a coin backed ETF where would the new player get the coins from?

That's one area the Winklevoss twins actually have an edge in.

There is a possibility that currently non-circulating coins will come out of the woodwork once there are more robust and tightly regulated legacy investment options. Bakkt has been somewhat of a disappointment in that way though. Otherwise there is always miners, the OTC market, etc.

Just a few months ago, Coinbase held ~983,700 BTC in its cold storage. https://cryptoslate.com/nearly-1-million-bitcoins-worth-8-4-billion-now-held-in-coinbases-cold-storage-wallets/

But almost all of that belongs to other people. I dunno what GBTC's terms are but I assume you only ever own shares they issue, not the BTC.

What's the difference? They have ~365 million shares outstanding, which represents all the BTC in the trust.

[gentlemand]

What's the difference? They have ~365 million shares outstanding, which represents all the BTC in the trust.

It's a dollar liability not a Bitcoin liability? Users paid in with dollars so I assume they're paid out in dollars. Grayscale may decide to pull it if they have an offer they can't refuse or decide the BTC can be retasked for more lucrative ends. No idea what the small print is but you're buying into an offshoot of property that remains theirs I presume.

[exstasie]

What's the difference? They have ~365 million shares outstanding, which represents all the BTC in the trust.

It's a dollar liability not a Bitcoin liability? Users paid in with dollars so I assume they're paid out in dollars. Grayscale may decide to pull it if they have an offer they can't refuse or decide the BTC can be retasked for more lucrative ends. No idea what the small print is but you're buying into an offshoot of property that remains theirs I presume.

More lucrative than a 2% annual management fee, taken in BTC? Hmmm. That sounds rather unlikely but anything is possible. I'm sure Barry can legally liquidate the fund and pay out investors at NAV in USD, though he'd have to produce several billions of dollars for the fund's investors.

Personally I see one of two things as more likely. If GBTC remains popular, it's a golden goose and there's no way it gets closed. If not, GBTC may eventually trade at a discount to NAV and Barry will finally open up a redemption process so the market can be properly arbitraged.

[MrSunshine]

GBTC looking as strong as ever now: https://decrypt.co/48277/grayscale-buys-240m-in-bitcoin-in-largest-capital-raise-week-ever