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Author Topic: The 94% Con by Jon Montroll  (Read 84946 times)
minerpumpkin
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November 20, 2013, 01:28:26 PM
 #61

I got about 1 BTC stuck in there...

Date   2013-11-10 19:27:23
Transaction ID   ICunStQ7Uts23k7tzbfxbOoi20Cg6pov
Type   Withdraw
Debit   1.03191050 BTC
Credit   
Fee   0.00000000 BTC
BTC Transaction   
Status   Processing

I should have gotten into Bitcoin back in 1992...
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November 20, 2013, 01:40:04 PM
 #62

I withdrew my BTC on 18 NOV 2013.
Still in processing mode, this is ridiculous.

Date    2013-11-17 16:12:00
Transaction ID    Dnb5QQvKN1tWbR7kULACDrdK89heQn6K
Type    Withdraw
Debit    2.06771160 BTC
Credit    
Fee    0.00000000 BTC
BTC Transaction    
Status    Processing

Tirapon
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November 20, 2013, 02:42:55 PM
 #63

FFS, why did I literally just find this thread after sending to WeExchange...

Had a tiny amount of BTC, less than the 0.1 withdrawal limit. Sent 0.1 so that I'd be able to withdraw...

At least its not a lot for me - others have quite a lot tied up. This is unacceptable, I'm okay to wait but what about those who have 1000's of dollars stuck?
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November 20, 2013, 04:22:36 PM
 #64

For me it's 5. NOV 2013 and still nothing.
Ticket from 7. NOV 2013 unanswered.
Date    2013-11-05 11:01:05
Transaction ID    snDOLZbgUOup4OXKq4YpXWzSz4IQUtwm
Type    Withdraw
Debit    3.70767345 BTC
Credit    
Fee    0.00000000 BTC
BTC Transaction    
Status    Processing

There are bright hackers among us here, if anyone found the real life name and address of Mr Ukyo we could address him with legal claim no? In worst case confront him personally with the matter.
I am closely cooperating with a lawyer specialized in business law and debt collection... Even a private investigator might be useful to collectively hire at this point?
We shouldn't threat with any force of course - but this guy should give the community the respect and support in the same way we all respected him.
Honesty comes first. 

r3n3
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November 20, 2013, 05:03:10 PM
 #65

same thing

Date    2013-11-11 03:39:25
Transaction ID    o2wC21EbbcLJgdt6tI82kA3kTJvQDwCC
Type    Withdraw
Debit    0.25872496 BTC
Credit    
Fee    0.00000000 BTC
BTC Transaction    
Status    Processing
tuudle
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November 20, 2013, 05:36:25 PM
 #66

I believe Ukyo is working hard to fullfill withdraw requests. The other way around: the lack of information from him is not the way how this should be handled.

My ~ 5 cents:
Code:
tuudle y9dZ9fuEpHu18y7UdGaZN3aZzkfwfygE 0.33385923 BTC 2013-11-09 17:41:59
tuudle yxtkJdeJzCbfouUrDncP0LeVZnbGLCOX 0.77118120 BTC 2013-11-14 07:38:53
dawie
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November 20, 2013, 05:56:15 PM
 #67

Me too
Date   2013-11-17 00:56:18
Transaction ID   bZgYeINkr6WuFRS4kKVOSwKkTQnQ4Cf4
Type   Withdraw
Debit   0.29937424 BTC
Credit   
Fee   0.00000000 BTC
BTC Transaction   
Status   Processing

Fascinated by BTC
BTC: 1HWUnvZ3xQykdSJsfyGiGQpZG16uFe8DXJ
XMR: 44fJ52WJGUmceBX6iARnfW6k9p2MFrwkb9AeXRDvQDaZYM8zkA2uuysE164GBGrhkvGh8PAxGUFU5Fq eEmk82Cww3CHdeRS
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November 20, 2013, 06:07:11 PM
 #68

Here too:

Date   2013-11-06 14:27:12
Transaction ID   pnj3CTYrr3F5zYnatgNgxo9VuUua5tFK
Type   Withdraw
Debit   0.33721200 BTC
Credit   
Fee   0.00000000 BTC
BTC Transaction   
Status   Processing


Date   2013-11-15 06:48:02
Transaction ID   R7xoTDoKXo2nc6tXbCQiDUeeGqgp1yUS
Type   Withdraw
Debit   0.25991424 BTC
Credit   
Fee   0.00000000 BTC
BTC Transaction   
Status   Processing

unchained
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November 20, 2013, 06:09:32 PM
 #69

Date    2013-11-09 12:38:15
Transaction ID    MGdeUPftYUrvup2jEbpijJyHjC1zblA9
Type    Withdraw
Debit    0.29976338 BTC
Credit    
Fee    0.00000000 BTC
BTC Transaction    
Status    Processing

and

Date    2013-11-07 09:27:25
Transaction ID    6kng7EpqbbBD0ypGvQhXQ5hPAyZzxeS2
Type    Withdraw
Debit    2.43685000 BTC
Credit    
Fee    0.00000000 BTC
BTC Transaction    
Status    Processing
JaredR26
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November 20, 2013, 06:31:39 PM
 #70

Ok, so this thread is seriously unjustified at this point.  Ukyo is clearly having difficulties delivering.  But it does not justify a scam accusation so long as he appears to be working on the issue.

1. Speaking as a software engineer with a lot of experience dealing with software(and software failures) at scale, it is *very reasonable* that everything Ukyo is describing about the wallet difficulties could be true*.  It is also very reasonable that there are few if any good solutions to this problem.  This is compounded because A. Bitcoin is a new technology and has not yet hit/fixed these scaling limits, B. Bitcoin is a distributed computing problem, which introduces a lot more complexity, C. Bitcoin is an open source project, meaning few if any single team/individuals are accountable for these types of issues, and D. many of the teams working with Bitcoin, like Ukyo, both don't have the background/experience necessary to pre-emptively prevent these types of failures, they ALSO don't have the resources to call on to fix the issues quickly.  This isn't some team at Microsoft that can just call up the developers on the phone who made the software for a bugfix.

Unless some other experienced software engineer(please state your background) wants to come in here and put his balls on the line claiming that Ukyo is full of shit and there's no way Bitcoind could fail like he has described, all claims that Ukyo is lying about the problem need to stop *RIGHT FUCKING NOW.*  That would include Bitcoin developers like Luke-jr or Gavin, or anyone else who can prove what they are claiming.

My background is software engineering for Amazon before I jumped to be the technical director for Dave @ Mega Big Power(100TH mine), and a gaming industry programmer before that.  Right this moment we are seeing difficulties of Bitcoind scaling internally- Getworks overwhelming out bitcoind clients, getinfo and gettransactions requests taking an excessive amount of time, and a huge drop in getwork throughput every time we receive a new block notification.  Speaking from my experience, there is no doubt in my mind that Ukyo is telling the truth about the difficulties he is encountering.  And unless someone else with the relevant experience wants to step up and put his balls on the line claiming Ukyo is lying(and explain why), that claim needs to stop right now.

To give even more backing to the idea of how the Bitcoin community handles 'scale' so far, when mining you are supposed to have one worker per device for clear tracking.  I have asked two different pool operators if I could create just shy of a thousand workers for mining projects I am involved with.  Both balked and said that would likely break their backend systems.  Note that we aren't talking millions of items(like most websites must handle including this forum) or billions(like Amazon.com / Google / Facebook must handle), we're talking one thousand.  Mostly these are database entries.  The Bitcoin communities' software simply doesn't handle scale well.

* I am not claiming that Ukyo has handled this perfectly or made optimal decisions.  He is human, after all.  Mistakes or decisions made non-optimally does not warrant a scammer accusation.

2. Ukyo has been responding about this issue the whole time.  He has not vanished with anyone's money.  People have been getting payments for days now- Not perfectly consistently or constantly, but people have been getting payments, and Ukyo is under no obligation to do things the way you want.

3. Libbitcoin/Electrum -

First of all, Ukyo is not under any obligation to do things your way.  Not doing so does not warrant a scammer tag, that isn't how scammer tags work.  It sounds like his wallets may have thousands to tens of thousands of addresses/private keys, which might well break Electrum the same way.  Even simply exporting all of these addresses would be a difficult proposition, and exporting/importing is necessary for libbitcoin as well.

Second, libbitcoin is going to be an unfamiliar software to Ukyo.  Switching from something that is working(however badly) to something unknown is not an easy decision to make, and there are definitely costs with switching midstream.  Furthermore, a bug or faillure of the system(which is not backed & tested by the full Bitcoin open source team, nor has it been used by many different people in large-scale applications) could cause irretrievable losses for Ukyo.  And THEN you'd give him a scammer tag unless he could somehow prove to your hearts content that the coins were truly lost(Hint: You'd never be convinced anyway).

4. Demands and ETA -
Ukyo is not dealing with a simple physical labor problem.  Software problems are complex and unpredictable.  He can't give an ETA for how long it would take to solve the problem because he can't possibly know.  Again, anyone who is an experienced software developer can step in here and tell me I am wrong, but they won't.  The entire software industry is habitually late delivering despite best efforts(and crunch time) to avoid it.  Software problem fixes are generally not predictable for ETA's.  So he could make up some number far in the future and it is going to sound ridiculous to you and everyone else, which would piss you off more.  Or he can make a reasonable guess, but with a significant chance he might miss that date.  It is better for him simply to not give an ETA but rather give updates, and then those who know how these problems go and truly understand the issues can make their own predictions, and people like you who don't understand the problem can continue to rage.

Moreover, every time Ukyo tries something new to solve the problem, you can expect a several day delay.  Working with software and existing other people's systems requires a bit of stumbling and learning every time you switch gears.

5. Fractional reserve claim -

This claim is completely unsubstantiated.  The "word going around" does not represent reality nor is it a fact, and therefore it is not something you can make a demand.  If you're going to make that accusation, you need proof.  The burden of proof is on you buddy, not him.

And the fact that your demand is for a signed message from an address with the coin shows that you clearly have no grasp of this problem, and are in no position to be making a scam accusation.  He can't sign from an address with the coin because no single address has the coin.  If a single address did have the coin, bitcoind wouldn't be choking.  Bitcoin is choking because the coin has been fractioned out over thousands(or tens of thousands) of addresses.  Sure, if you want, I'm sure he could spend a week generating the 10,000 signatures necessary to account for all the coin.  And you could spend a week verifying all of those.  But I think everyone else here would rather he just continue working on the problem at hand.

6. Disabling withdraw from Weexchange
While this isn't a bad idea, it doesn't really solve anything.  They can't withdraw now but they at least have a process to get a slow withdrawal started.  Under your way they still couldn't withdraw, but now have no process to get one started.  Doesn't seem to gain much.

And lastly, Lophie you are in no position personally to be making scam accusations.  Firstly, you clearly don't have a grasp on the technical problems Ukyo has described, else you would not have demanded a signed message and made yourself look stupid.  Secondly, I've caught you lying publically at least twice, so you should have left this scam accusation to someone with a clean record.  Someone not approaching problems the way YOU demand does not make them a scammer.

Disclaimer: I have about ~20 BTC held up in Bitfunder/Weexchange that needs to be withdrawn.
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November 20, 2013, 06:38:23 PM
 #71

Ok, so this thread is seriously unjustified at this point.  Ukyo is clearly having difficulties delivering.  But it does not justify a scam accusation so long as he appears to be working on the issue.

...

+1
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November 20, 2013, 06:40:36 PM
 #72



2. Ukyo has been responding about this issue the whole time.  He has not vanished with anyone's money.  People have been getting payments for days now- Not perfectly consistently or constantly, but people have been getting payments


He said all the withdrawals until 23rd would been processed 5 days ago and in the last week-end all withdrawals until october 26, maybe 28 would been fixed.
In reality still people with withdrawals started on october 23rd are waiting and I haven't seen a single evidence about some money really leaved weex.

Still, 2 days without updates on forum, just a telegraphic IRC statement (with no relevant content) yesterday
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November 20, 2013, 06:42:45 PM
 #73

Lophie, did you mean to give UKYO a positive rating?

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November 20, 2013, 06:48:48 PM
 #74

How is it that he can't just sit down import his private key to a new wallet and send us our moneys one by one already? Is he on vacation in North Korea or something?

It is unfortunate that with bitcoins one really has no excuse.
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November 20, 2013, 06:58:56 PM
 #75

How is it that he can't just sit down import his private key to a new wallet and send us our moneys one by one already? Is he on vacation in North Korea or something?

It is unfortunate that with bitcoins one really has no excuse.

Because there's 1000-10,000 private keys.
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November 20, 2013, 07:02:43 PM
 #76

How is it that he can't just sit down import his private key to a new wallet and send us our moneys one by one already? Is he on vacation in North Korea or something?

It is unfortunate that with bitcoins one really has no excuse.

Because there's 1000-10,000 private keys.

Which pywallet can export in about 10 seconds and can be imported into a new wallet in maybe a few minutes tops.
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November 20, 2013, 07:09:04 PM
 #77

Ok, so this thread is seriously unjustified at this point.  Ukyo is clearly having difficulties delivering.  But it does not justify a scam accusation so long as he appears to be working on the issue....

Really loved your explanation but it SHOULD come from Ukyo, yours is only a guess. Might be the correct one, might be not.

Ukyo has got a business that not only runs on a technical note, it also consists on telling ALL his customers (a note on the website perhaps???) about what´s going on. Feels like we´re alpha testing here.
I´ve worked in software development too and this is a very common claim, "it´s not that easy to fix" and whether I do believe is not an easy fix, I have to remind again, this is only a part of his business.

Example: you call weexchange on the phone and the person answering could give you a pre-scripted answer to the query (which is now a common one). Seriously, that takes 5 minutes to think and resolve and will leave people a bit more confident.

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November 20, 2013, 07:28:26 PM
 #78

How is it that he can't just sit down import his private key to a new wallet and send us our moneys one by one already? Is he on vacation in North Korea or something?

It is unfortunate that with bitcoins one really has no excuse.

Because there's 1000-10,000 private keys.

Which pywallet can export in about 10 seconds and can be imported into a new wallet in maybe a few minutes tops.

The solution has been found!

Quick, enlighten Ukyo so he can fix this whole mess within a few minutes, tops.
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November 20, 2013, 07:30:58 PM
 #79

JaredR26... i think that a Scam Accusation isnt justified too though the OP seems to mean this thread as a threat because the unsolved problems remain.

Im a programmer too and yes such problems can happen. But this goes on since more than a month now. What about the bitcoind-devs? No help even though thats a serious problem? And what about other services like gambling sites? They dont have such problems. Do they use other wallets or dont they want to help?

Ukyo has not answered a long time when this started. No one was informed that withdrawing wont work so the more people went into that trap. I probably wouldnt have upload bitcoins when i knew before about the problems. And now ukyo is away for days again. Might be he has nothing new to say but this sucks. Im sure you only wait since some days and not since more than a month where you look everyday and you dont get your bitcoins and not even information now. So yes... you still might be relaxed but this will change most probably. Simply give it some time.

Libbitcoin... what risk? Is there a risk to accidentally spend all user coins? How should this happen without running a certain command? And it should be possible to run a couple test-transactions with low bitcoinvalue to test the waters.

Why do you value the wish to create a new weexchange so high that it is ok to held so many customers captive? In the name of one single business wish? I dont see why that is more important. While i dont see too who should use weexchange in the future at all. Ukyo claimed there is someone interested but no further info to proof this.

You mention he is paying out... i dont see this anymore. I fear that bitcoind stopped working completely some days ago. Otherwise i cant explain why not a single person (and by now every weexchange user with a withdraw should know about the problems) is posting that he got his payment.

By the way... bitcoind needs 10s of minutes to load into a workable mode? And stops working shortly after? Doesnt this sound like these problems at least could be solveable temporarely by using a better and faster server? There might be a software limit somehow but this should be foundable fast. But a faster server should be a possible workaround for some time.

Anyway... not communicating is the worst way to handle this.

Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.
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November 20, 2013, 07:43:17 PM
 #80

Same for me...

Username          WeExchange ID                                 Amount                  Time Stamp

jnmo     5Uo6cCslySHB9UsxAqovS1ghMuLj7Kaf     6.47961116 BTC     2013-11-14 17:05:16
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