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Author Topic: The 94% Con by Jon Montroll  (Read 84946 times)
glendall
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November 20, 2013, 08:15:53 PM
 #81

I do not know how bitcoind works though I have a strong IT background a minor programming knowledge as well.

Is it really feasible that this problem could be going on for more than a month?  I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't know.

Even it is a technical problem the proper course of action would have been to put a hold on withdraws and deposits and then process them manually. By not giving any warnings to people that their deposits were in danger for over a month... that's pretty questionable. Also Bitfunder / WeExchange are all but shutting down. And though it's Ukyo's private business and I don't ask him to reveal his reasons, but is it not pretty suspicious he took out a massive loan in this time? 

Even if the problems are purely technical this is still a very serious situation though. So many of us lost investment opportunities and the chance to sell at the peak of a bubble with this error. There could be over a million bucks on the line here, Ukyo should form a plan of action and post it.  I know he's in a tough position and feel for him if it is technical problem but there needs to be motion on this, way too much money is involved.  Not so much mine but some people as posted have life savings-size amounts stuck in limbo and that naturally makes them angry, and scared that they won't see there money again.


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November 20, 2013, 09:22:32 PM
 #82

How is it that he can't just sit down import his private key to a new wallet and send us our moneys one by one already? Is he on vacation in North Korea or something?

It is unfortunate that with bitcoins one really has no excuse.

Because there's 1000-10,000 private keys.

Which pywallet can export in about 10 seconds and can be imported into a new wallet in maybe a few minutes tops.
But he should probably import them in batches, not all at once and consolidate the BTC into a few addresses because apparently, too many private keys in the wallet was what caused the problem in the first place.
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November 20, 2013, 09:36:46 PM
 #83

How is it that he can't just sit down import his private key to a new wallet and send us our moneys one by one already? Is he on vacation in North Korea or something?

It is unfortunate that with bitcoins one really has no excuse.

Because there's 1000-10,000 private keys.

Which pywallet can export in about 10 seconds and can be imported into a new wallet in maybe a few minutes tops.
But he should probably import them in batches, not all at once and consolidate the BTC into a few addresses because apparently, too many private keys in the wallet was what caused the problem in the first place.

True but this isn't a months worth of work.  A simple solution would be export all private keys.  Import 5,000 keys into new wallet.  Send all funds to a single address in a third wallet.  Repeat with another batch.  Eventually you end up with all coins in a single address with a few very high value outputs.

My larger point was the explanation for the delay doesn't make much sense.  So either there is something much more complex going on or it is non-technical bad (coins lost, coins stolen, coins lost in speculation by operator, coins taken by operator).
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November 20, 2013, 10:06:20 PM
 #84

Date   2013-11-06 18:07:03
Transaction ID   FsR0ca5ajb3FPV8pW3UJ8LvqeWY3cu64
Type   Withdraw
Debit   0.17881200 BTC
Credit   
Fee   0.00000000 BTC
BTC Transaction   
Status   Processing
lophie (OP)
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November 20, 2013, 10:58:46 PM
 #85

JaredR26, oh god man you really pinned me down, Wow you refuted my arguments completely!

Just a couple of questions because I think I have been doing it wrong my whole life, you know being a software engineer and all (I don't brag my background, If I do I would be a shitty one, I am just a bad one):

1-
Quote
all claims that Ukyo is lying about the problem need to stop *RIGHT FUCKING NOW.*  That would include Bitcoin developers like Luke-jr or Gavin, or anyone else who can prove what they are claiming.

I am sorry isn't this a double sided argument? I mean since the technology is "new" and have a "scaling" issue, Shouldn't you stop to defend Ukyo "*RIGHT FUCKING NOW.*" unless you can reproduce his claimed error?


2- Ukyo is under no obligation to do things the way you want., He IS under obligation to properly respond and adhere to the consequences of his actions. The demands section is merely the norm and de facto for how would other professionals handle it when "shit hit the fan".

3-
Quote
First of all, Ukyo is not under any obligation to do things your way
, Unlike you I actually read the other guy's arguement before responding to it, This point was just mentioned in the previous point, I hate redundancy it makes the code ugly, I cannot imagine codes you write....

Quote
It sounds like his wallets may have thousands to tens of thousands of addresses/private keys, which might well break Electrum the same way.  Even simply exporting all of these addresses would be a difficult proposition, and exporting/importing is necessary for libbitcoin as well.

Oh god and all the time I thought experiments could prove a result but it was all about how it "sounds"  Roll Eyes.

4. Demands and ETA -
Quote
Ukyo is not dealing with a simple physical labor problem.  Software problems are complex and unpredictable.  He can't give an ETA for how long it would take to solve the problem because he can't possibly know.  Again, anyone who is an experienced software developer can step in here and tell me I am wrong, but they won't.  The entire software industry is habitually late delivering despite best efforts(and crunch time) to avoid it.

I know right! you are absolutely right! All software project managers are insane to give an ETA! projects and mile stones don't have ETAs, It is just happy go lucky agile programming all day, If the Debian or Gnome project only knew that they might have been more productive.....

5. Fractional reserve claim -

Quote
This claim is completely unsubstantiated.  The "word going around" does not represent reality nor is it a fact, and therefore it is not something you can make a demand.  If you're going to make that accusation, you need proof.  The burden of proof is on you buddy, not him.

Discuss the argument buddy, no faeces throwing please:

Quote
Facts are facts and they state that Ukyo closed Bitfunder because there are not enough funds to pursue legalizing state of bitfunder,  Ukyo delayed the dividents of G.ASICMINER-PT for a whole week claiming he needed Friedcat to tell him the amount for the divs per share, a very easy argument to defeat which is knowing that amount just a few hours after the dividents is very easy from TAT, Jutarul, The online list and forum posts. Seeking consistency from several users from the public addresses and ASICMINER div transaction is very very easy. Which leads to the very simple conclusion that  Ukyo basically did not have the funds and needed longer time to accumulate them.

This makes it very easy to reach the conclusion that the error on WeExchange happens simply because the wallet on the bitcoind daemon server DOES NOT have enough funds to create such transactions, recently it sometimes had it and sometimes did not, But now it is simply an empty wallet.

Aaaaand

Quote
And the fact that your demand is for a signed message from an address with the coin shows that you clearly have no grasp of this problem, and are in no position to be making a scam accusation.  He can't sign from an address with the coin because no single address has the coin.  If a single address did have the coin, bitcoind wouldn't be choking.  Bitcoin is choking because the coin has been fractioned out over thousands(or tens of thousands) of addresses.  Sure, if you want, I'm sure he could spend a week generating the 10,000 signatures necessary to account for all the coin.  And you could spend a week verifying all of those.  But I think everyone else here would rather he just continue working on the problem at hand.

Ok tell me if I got this wrong, Every single Bitcoin is identical to the other Bitcoin, to the satoshi level they are all equal.

If I did not get that wrong may I ask why did you assume I wanted him to sign these exact Bitcoins?

The signature would just prove that "yes I am Ukyo and I can cover this amount and here is the proof", This would break the arguments of not having enough funds.

6. Disabling withdraw from Weexchange
Quote
While this isn't a bad idea, it doesn't really solve anything.  They can't withdraw now but they at least have a process to get a slow withdrawal started.  Under your way they still couldn't withdraw, but now have no process to get one started.  Doesn't seem to gain much.

Hey software-engineer-san, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation, When time is infinite (no ETA), You cannot use "Slow" or "Fast".

Wow so that explains when Amazon had a bug where I can buy but never get my stuff yet my money is subtracted from my account, silly me for asking them an ETA to solve the problem...... of course if they have this problem happening to everyone it is very silly to ask them to stop the buying feature as well  Roll Eyes


Quote
And lastly, Lophie you are in no position personally to be making scam accusations.  Firstly, you clearly don't have a grasp on the technical problems Ukyo has described, else you would not have demanded a signed message and made yourself look stupid.  Secondly, I've caught you lying publically at least twice, so you should have left this scam accusation to someone with a clean record.  Someone not approaching problems the way YOU demand does not make them a scammer.

mmmmm, I actually do, The request for a signed message is explained above again maybe this time would understand (Yeah I get that in meetings too sometimes they just have to repeat what they just said even though I can read it over and over in the text in front of me)

Ouch so I lied publicly twice (at least), so my record is not clean Sad, oh I have to return the money I stole first before posting it is not like I lied because I was ashamed of pulling out of an auction because I had a life crisis or anything.....

Disclaimer: I enjoy being shut down by a nice counter argument but I find faeces throwing rather disgusting and unprofessional

Will take me a while to climb up again, But where is a will, there is a way...
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November 20, 2013, 11:08:12 PM
 #86

How is it that he can't just sit down import his private key to a new wallet and send us our moneys one by one already? Is he on vacation in North Korea or something?

It is unfortunate that with bitcoins one really has no excuse.

Because there's 1000-10,000 private keys.

Which pywallet can export in about 10 seconds and can be imported into a new wallet in maybe a few minutes tops.
But he should probably import them in batches, not all at once and consolidate the BTC into a few addresses because apparently, too many private keys in the wallet was what caused the problem in the first place.

True but this isn't a months worth of work.  A simple solution would be export all private keys.  Import 5,000 keys into new wallet.  Send all funds to a single address in a third wallet.  Repeat with another batch.  Eventually you end up with all coins in a single address with a few very high value outputs.

My larger point was the explanation for the delay doesn't make much sense.  So either there is something much more complex going on or it is non-technical bad (coins lost, coins stolen, coins lost in speculation by operator, coins taken by operator).

Ok since I have no knowledge refute this Jared, this is DeathAndTaxes and he knows his shit. So you are telling me that we trusted a guy who did not even know why the deposit addresses change periodically on gox? And now he complains about a problem that SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED LONG TIME AGO?

The guy actually posted that he didn't want to do that fearing that a transaction might get stuck in the local mem then get broadcasted again when you fire up bitcoind again........... DIDN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO PREVENT THAT!

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November 20, 2013, 11:10:54 PM
 #87

My larger point was the explanation for the delay doesn't make much sense.  So either there is something much more complex going on or it is non-technical bad (coins lost, coins stolen, coins lost in speculation by operator, coins taken by operator).

Hey according to Jared, "This claim is completely unsubstantiated", Even when the conclusion is being suggested by recent events and explain in the OP.

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November 21, 2013, 12:51:27 AM
 #88

How is it that he can't just sit down import his private key to a new wallet and send us our moneys one by one already? Is he on vacation in North Korea or something?

It is unfortunate that with bitcoins one really has no excuse.

Because there's 1000-10,000 private keys.

Which pywallet can export in about 10 seconds and can be imported into a new wallet in maybe a few minutes tops.

The solution has been found!

Quick, enlighten Ukyo so he can fix this whole mess within a few minutes, tops.

Really? is the problem solved?

Jared26, as many thing happened to the community recently, every case has to handle with carefully with its best ways. if not the community going to be destroy...

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November 21, 2013, 01:02:26 AM
 #89

I'm surprised conspiracy lovers didn't emit the following hypothesis.
What if Ukyo was a TF (or TF was a Ukyo) sock since the begining?
Any strong evidence one way or another?

[OVER] RIDDLES 2nd edition --- this was claimed. Look out for 3rd edition!
I won't ever ask for a loan nor offer any escrow service. If I do, please consider my account as hacked.
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November 21, 2013, 01:16:33 AM
 #90

2013-11-04 11:36:40   BTC   1.00000000   1.00000000   Withdraw   Processing
2013-11-07 09:58:56   BTC   3.13559733   3.13559733   Withdraw   Processing

and I have another 14.19 BTC in Weexchange ,which I didn't withdraw ,because I know it can;t be successful withdraw in anyway.

Rockiex have 250 BTC stuck in Weexchange .
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November 21, 2013, 01:37:09 AM
 #91

2013-11-18 18:06:38   Withdraw   0.10000000 BTC      Processing
2013-11-04 17:51:08   Withdraw   0.15948012 BTC      Processing

+ 7.95 BTC in Bitfunder

btc 1JZC6AfStkJ32mmhEkTjnfHZSFUHHzFhmD
atb APdYw1DsN7zxgofHBq5cCgFFpjBY1MYDx5
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November 21, 2013, 01:52:50 AM
 #92

From here https://blockchain.info/address/126xgFue6fgkmCqNCY6ypaqzzk78NPPwEZ to here https://blockchain.info/address/1D6GiWT49TCBu2y4pMKcCLuTfvHKfG1ro5 is only a couple hops, if that helps.
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November 21, 2013, 02:04:02 AM
 #93

Ok, mine so far 2nd try:

2013-11-17 18:54:08   Withdraw   1.32756000 BTC      Processing   EVTTxYuOio18a7lBeyZ4O9NEAXbOpKcq
2013-11-07 20:43:38   Withdraw   1.29067248 BTC      Processing   LqXRstA2sLr7PBoQM7aBu6Ax0DFqwTEz

I vaguely remember weexchange being owned by Graet?  The whole reason why I went with BF is because I believed BF and Weex were separate entities, so BF had no access to any of the coins.

Hi,
I run Ozcoin Pooled Mining Pty Ltd, we have a Bitcoin mining pool and a Litecoin mining pool. I am supported in this by a team of 6 coders.

I am also a director of WeExchange Australia Pty Ltd, a new Bitcoin exchange currently in live testing. Currently we have a US LLC run by our other director and the Australian Pty Ltd overseen by me. We are supported by a small team of part time coders currently.

Couple of other projects I am exploring - I mean why wouldn't you Wink

In this crazy Bitcoin "world", dominated by people operating behind anonymous nicks and throw away email I think threads like this are essential.

Good work Smiley
Graeme Tee


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November 21, 2013, 02:10:00 AM
 #94


Yeah saw that but sadly can't confirm or disprove that this belongs to Ukyo, So does not help either arguments, Not even suggestive because of Bitcoin pseudonymous nature. Sad but thanks man.

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November 21, 2013, 03:06:56 AM
 #95

All, let's try to keep this thread focused on the original topic. Some people may disagree with the thread and post their disagreement. Please do not give them the time from your day by posting back.

Let's just track the debts, spread the word and for the time being hope some progress is made toward a resolution.

KrimsonKla
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November 21, 2013, 03:09:07 AM
 #96

Quote
And the fact that your demand is for a signed message from an address with the coin shows that you clearly have no grasp of this problem, and are in no position to be making a scam accusation.  He can't sign from an address with the coin because no single address has the coin.  If a single address did have the coin, bitcoind wouldn't be choking.  Bitcoin is choking because the coin has been fractioned out over thousands(or tens of thousands) of addresses.  Sure, if you want, I'm sure he could spend a week generating the 10,000 signatures necessary to account for all the coin.  And you could spend a week verifying all of those.  But I think everyone else here would rather he just continue working on the problem at hand.

Ok tell me if I got this wrong, Every single Bitcoin is identical to the other Bitcoin, to the satoshi level they are all equal.

If I did not get that wrong may I ask why did you assume I wanted him to sign these exact Bitcoins?

The signature would just prove that "yes I am Ukyo and I can cover this amount and here is the proof", This would break the arguments of not having enough funds.

I'm sorry, which of the 10,000 containing addresses did you want him to sign from?  Please specify which one and I'm sure I could get him to sign that one.  But you only requested one signature, so you only get one.
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November 21, 2013, 03:09:56 AM
 #97

All, let's try to keep this thread focused on the original topic. Some people may disagree with the thread and post their disagreement. Please do not give them the time from your day by posting back.

Let's just track the debts, spread the word and for the time being hope some progress is made toward a resolution.

KrimsonKla

This thread wasn't created to track debts.  It is in the scam accusations board and it is a scam accusation.
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November 21, 2013, 03:12:33 AM
 #98

How is it that he can't just sit down import his private key to a new wallet and send us our moneys one by one already? Is he on vacation in North Korea or something?

It is unfortunate that with bitcoins one really has no excuse.

Because there's 1000-10,000 private keys.

Which pywallet can export in about 10 seconds and can be imported into a new wallet in maybe a few minutes tops.
But he should probably import them in batches, not all at once and consolidate the BTC into a few addresses because apparently, too many private keys in the wallet was what caused the problem in the first place.

True but this isn't a months worth of work.  A simple solution would be export all private keys.  Import 5,000 keys into new wallet.  Send all funds to a single address in a third wallet.  Repeat with another batch.  Eventually you end up with all coins in a single address with a few very high value outputs.

My larger point was the explanation for the delay doesn't make much sense.  So either there is something much more complex going on or it is non-technical bad (coins lost, coins stolen, coins lost in speculation by operator, coins taken by operator).

Don't tell me, I'm not working on the problem.  Tell Ukyo.  Your solution may very well work, I don't know.  I don't know why Ukyo didn't think of it, and I don't know that I personally would have thought of it in Ukyo's shoes.  I didn't know about pywallet, and I expect there are a great many subsets and facets about Bitcoin that Ukyo(or most site operators today) do not know about.

I also don't know that there isn't some hidden flaw or danger in that approach that would prevent it from working(and wouldn't until I tried).
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November 21, 2013, 03:26:20 AM
 #99

Date    2013-11-17 08:08:27
Transaction ID    8s13gblVYJOJe4mTVB8ZrRLW7WqIFVr9
Type    Withdraw
Debit    1.07437170 BTC
Credit    
Fee    0.00000000 BTC
BTC Transaction    
Status    Processing
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November 21, 2013, 03:33:41 AM
 #100

What is Graet's take on all of this? He is the director, isn't he? He should be able to tell us what is going on or how to contact Ukyo.

From the WeExchange thread:

Best wishes,
Graeme Tee
Director
WeExchange Australia, Pty. Ltd.
ACN: 152 308 239
ABN: 30 152 308 239

His Facebook page?
https://www.facebook.com/graeme.tee.9

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