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Author Topic: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness!  (Read 95858 times)
AyeYo
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September 12, 2011, 12:21:53 AM
 #261

Private courts. Will that business just be able to ignore the ruling? Sure, but it will make life difficult for them. Would you do business with a company that has a history of never allowing itself to be brought to justice?

Obviously the vast majority of people would, which is why our entire modern corporate world is still standing.

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September 12, 2011, 12:57:31 AM
 #262

I'm only allowed to use violence as proportional response to you. If you steal my shirt, I can take it back. If you fight me, I can fight back.

Really? Because although you use the NAP court, how do you know I don't use the NNNAP court?

The non-non-non-aggression-principle court?

The Not Necessarily Non Aggression Principle Court. If your claim against me hinges on NAP, obviously I'm going to select a NNNAP court. Likewise, when I claim that the farming on your land is creating edge effects which destroy the biodiversity on my land, you're obviously going to hire the WTDTERBAIWTPWTOI court.

WTDTERBAIWTPWTOI stands for "We're too dumb to even recognize biodiversity as important. We thought pollution was the only issue".
NghtRppr
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September 12, 2011, 06:26:31 AM
 #263

Likewise, when I claim that the farming on your land is creating edge effects which destroy the biodiversity on my land...

So in other words, you have some use of your land that requires the use of my land? You have no right to that anymore than I have the right to build my grain silo on your land. Unless I'm directly damaging your land through some sort of border crossing, you've got no justification to tell me what I can and cannot do with my land.

By the way, can't you make your point without calling others stupid or do you always insult people that disagree with you?
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September 12, 2011, 01:32:24 PM
 #264

Likewise, when I claim that the farming on your land is creating edge effects which destroy the biodiversity on my land...

So in other words, you have some use of your land that requires the use of my land? You have no right to that anymore than I have the right to build my grain silo on your land. Unless I'm directly damaging your land through some sort of border crossing, you've got no justification to tell me what I can and cannot do with my land.


You don't seem to understand the difference between magically declaring that someone has "no right" to do something and implementation difficulties of actually being able to stop them from doing it.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
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September 12, 2011, 01:51:15 PM
 #265

Likewise, when I claim that the farming on your land is creating edge effects which destroy the biodiversity on my land...

So in other words, you have some use of your land that requires the use of my land? You have no right to that anymore than I have the right to build my grain silo on your land. Unless I'm directly damaging your land through some sort of border crossing, you've got no justification to tell me what I can and cannot do with my land.


You don't seem to understand the difference between magically declaring that someone has "no right" to do something and implemendation difficulties of actually being able to stop them from doing it.

bitcoin2cash's whole point is that he has abstract rights and the real world consequences of trying to implement them doesn't matter.  He talks about "his land" but if you take a real world view, land ownership comes from the State so its meaningless to assert he has rights that are more important than the State.

AyeYo
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September 12, 2011, 01:56:15 PM
 #266

Likewise, when I claim that the farming on your land is creating edge effects which destroy the biodiversity on my land...

So in other words, you have some use of your land that requires the use of my land? You have no right to that anymore than I have the right to build my grain silo on your land. Unless I'm directly damaging your land through some sort of border crossing, you've got no justification to tell me what I can and cannot do with my land.


You don't seem to understand the difference between magically declaring that someone has "no right" to do something and implemendation difficulties of actually being able to stop them from doing it.

bitcoin2cash's whole point is that he has abstract rights and the real world consequences of trying to implement them doesn't matter.  He talks about "his land" but if you take a real world view, land ownership comes from the State so its meaningless to assert he has rights that are more important than the State.


I think in his world, his "right" to own the land comes from his ability to defend what he thinks he owns.  However, as I've pointed out in a limitless number of threads, this quickly devolves into the man with the biggest gun making all the rules.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
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September 12, 2011, 03:16:39 PM
 #267

I think in his world, his "right" to own the land comes from his ability to defend what he thinks he owns.  However, as I've pointed out in a limitless number of threads, this quickly devolves into the man with the biggest gun making all the rules.

What I find funny is exactly what you've written here.  The pro-libertarians here seem displeased that we all have to obey the state - "might makes right" is a terrible principle, they expound.  However, as you say, they'll then argue that you can only own what you can defend.  Hmmm.
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September 12, 2011, 03:38:33 PM
 #268

Likewise, when I claim that the farming on your land is creating edge effects which destroy the biodiversity on my land...

So in other words, you have some use of your land that requires the use of my land? You have no right to that anymore than I have the right to build my grain silo on your land. Unless I'm directly damaging your land through some sort of border crossing, you've got no justification to tell me what I can and cannot do with my land.

By the way, can't you make your point without calling others stupid or do you always insult people that disagree with you?

Obviously, you don't understand what edge effects are. It's a very specific term.

Thank you so much for reinforcing the point I have been stressing for the past week. I have repeatedly stated that individuals like you are not qualified to apply a political ideology to real world problems because you can't take your nose out of your political ideology book and learn about processes external to political ideologies. But please don't be insulted by this revelation.

Edge effects are not part of a political ideology. They're part of ecosystems, which is a subject learned by studying ecology and biology.
NghtRppr
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September 12, 2011, 06:02:16 PM
 #269

Obviously, you don't understand what edge effects are. It's a very specific term.

Thank you so much for reinforcing the point I have been stressing for the past week. I have repeatedly stated that individuals like you are not qualified to apply a political ideology to real world problems because you can't take your nose out of your political ideology book and learn about processes external to political ideologies. But please don't be insulted by this revelation.

Edge effects are not part of a political ideology. They're part of ecosystems, which is a subject learned by studying ecology and biology.

Actually, I do know what edge effects are. It's not a complicated concept at all. I'm not sure why you're pretending like it's something that requires a degree in biology to understand. You also don't know what books I've read so I'm not sure why you're acting like you do. I guess it just makes it easier for you to pretend that your opponents are ignorant so you don't have to actually face the fact that you're wrong. You very close to being on my ignore list if you keep addressing me personally instead of the arguments. Besides, if you think a highly educated individual like myself is incapable of applying political ideologies to the real world, you're just making my case for me. The average person isn't college educated so is even less fit to make those decisions. That's why we need libertarianism, so we only need the average person to understand basic property rights and non-aggression.

Your condescension aside, my point stands. Unless I'm crossing your borders, you've got no right to complain. It doesn't matter if the usage of my land changes the wildlife on your land. Try attacking the argument head-on if you can. I'm pretty sure you can't which is why you're being so "herp derp, edge effects is complicated stuff!" Hah.
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September 12, 2011, 06:13:27 PM
 #270

Your condescension aside, my point stands. Unless I'm crossing your borders, you've got no right to complain. It doesn't matter if the usage of my land changes the wildlife on your land. Try attacking the argument head-on if you can. I'm pretty sure you can't which is why you're being so "herp derp, edge effects is complicated stuff!" Hah.

I never said edge effects were complicated to understand. I merely said you were ignorant of them. Big difference. Edge effects are a complicated process, but understanding them is not complicated.

This is an interesting statement that you have made:

It doesn't matter if the usage of my land changes the wildlife on your land.

First of all, I'm not sure the phrase 'changes the wildlife' really captures the extent of what edge effects cause, but it's one of the things, so we'll accept it for the moment. More interesting are your opening three words: "It doesn't matter...". I would appreciate an explanation of why it does not matter.
NghtRppr
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September 12, 2011, 06:32:43 PM
 #271

I would appreciate an explanation of why it does not matter.

If I own some land with a lake on it and you own some land where waterfowl like to nest because of that lake. And, if I drain that lake thereby driving all your waterfowl to nest elsewhere, that's too bad. You can't tell me that I have to leave the lake intact just because it will change the wildlife on your land. It's my lake. I own it. Therefore, I have complete control over it. Your rights don't extend over into my rights. If the situation were reversed, you would have the same right to keep or destroy your lake and I would simply have to deal with the consequences.
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September 12, 2011, 06:42:40 PM
 #272

I would appreciate an explanation of why it does not matter.

If I own some land with a lake on it and you own some land where waterfowl like to nest because of that lake. And, if I drain that lake thereby driving all your waterfowl to nest elsewhere, that's too bad. You can't tell me that I have to leave the lake intact just because it will change the wildlife on your land. It's my lake. I own it. Therefore, I have complete control over it. Your rights don't extend over into my rights. If the situation were reversed, you would have the same right to keep or destroy your lake and I would simply have to deal with the consequences.

I could say a lot on what you've just said, and perhaps I will, but I'm limited on time right now. I would like to point out however that you are not really addressing edge effects at all in your lake example. You may consult wikipedia if you wish. I will look the other way and believe your claim that you've known all along what edge effects are. Here's a hint: discontinuity.

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September 12, 2011, 06:58:20 PM
 #273

I would appreciate an explanation of why it does not matter.

If I own some land with a lake on it and you own some land where waterfowl like to nest because of that lake. And, if I drain that lake thereby driving all your waterfowl to nest elsewhere, that's too bad. You can't tell me that I have to leave the lake intact just because it will change the wildlife on your land. It's my lake. I own it. Therefore, I have complete control over it. Your rights don't extend over into my rights. If the situation were reversed, you would have the same right to keep or destroy your lake and I would simply have to deal with the consequences.
You're wasting your breath, FirstAscent.  We've already been through this - you'd have to sign a contract with him where you promise not to pollute the lake, and he promises to keep it in good condition.  I never did understand what's to stop the guys upstream pissing in the river though (in *their* property). FredericBastiat did say, at least, that polluting someone else's property is equivalent to trespass though the issue seems far from resolved:
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Does someone have to own the sea as well?  And all the ocean?  Do you have to enter into a contract with people on the other side of the ocean in the event your pollution should cause damage there?
If you don't own it, and I don't own it, and nobody owns it, then who cares. I know your answer. You do care; so go homestead it, occupy it and claim it for your own, and then complain at me when I provably pollute it (equivalent to trespass).
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September 12, 2011, 07:23:30 PM
 #274

I would like to point out however that you are not really addressing edge effects at all in your lake example.

I wasn't trying to. Let's review.

It doesn't matter if the usage of my land changes the wildlife on your land.

More interesting are your opening three words: "It doesn't matter...". I would appreciate an explanation of why it does not matter.

That's what I'm responding to. I'm explaining why it doesn't matter with this example which is what you asked about.
AyeYo
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September 12, 2011, 07:25:59 PM
 #275

Obviously, you don't understand what edge effects are. It's a very specific term.

Thank you so much for reinforcing the point I have been stressing for the past week. I have repeatedly stated that individuals like you are not qualified to apply a political ideology to real world problems because you can't take your nose out of your political ideology book and learn about processes external to political ideologies. But please don't be insulted by this revelation.

Edge effects are not part of a political ideology. They're part of ecosystems, which is a subject learned by studying ecology and biology.

Actually, I do know what edge effects are. It's not a complicated concept at all. I'm not sure why you're pretending like it's something that requires a degree in biology to understand. You also don't know what books I've read so I'm not sure why you're acting like you do. I guess it just makes it easier for you to pretend that your opponents are ignorant so you don't have to actually face the fact that you're wrong. You very close to being on my ignore list if you keep addressing me personally instead of the arguments. Besides, if you think a highly educated individual like myself is incapable of applying political ideologies to the real world, you're just making my case for me. The average person isn't college educated so is even less fit to make those decisions. That's why we need libertarianism, so we only need the average person to understand basic property rights and non-aggression.

Your condescension aside, my point stands. Unless I'm crossing your borders, you've got no right to complain. It doesn't matter if the usage of my land changes the wildlife on your land. Try attacking the argument head-on if you can. I'm pretty sure you can't which is why you're being so "herp derp, edge effects is complicated stuff!" Hah.

Actually in liber topia people will need to know far, far more than they do now. This has been evidenced in every thread in this section every time you've retorted with "well they should have known better" or "they should have been more informed."

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
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September 13, 2011, 01:13:33 AM
 #276

I would like to point out however that you are not really addressing edge effects at all in your lake example.

I wasn't trying to. Let's review.

It doesn't matter if the usage of my land changes the wildlife on your land.

More interesting are your opening three words: "It doesn't matter...". I would appreciate an explanation of why it does not matter.

That's what I'm responding to. I'm explaining why it doesn't matter with this example which is what you asked about.

Well, how about addressing edge effects?
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September 13, 2011, 05:06:39 AM
 #277

I would like to point out however that you are not really addressing edge effects at all in your lake example.

I wasn't trying to. Let's review.

It doesn't matter if the usage of my land changes the wildlife on your land.

More interesting are your opening three words: "It doesn't matter...". I would appreciate an explanation of why it does not matter.

That's what I'm responding to. I'm explaining why it doesn't matter with this example which is what you asked about.

Well, how about addressing edge effects?

The same analysis applies. What I do with my land indirectly affects your land. Too bad. So sad.
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September 13, 2011, 05:23:13 AM
 #278

The same analysis applies. What I do with my land indirectly affects your land. Too bad. So sad.

Wait until I create the post in which you become a part owner of the ACME Manufacturing Plant. You'll get your own little section of the factory floor, along with a hundred other libertarians. The owner, who sold all the factory sections to all of you made the grave error of not creating regulations which regulate what you can do to your own sections of the factory floor.

Oh, and he also failed to educate you on how all the machinery works, because it all runs automatically by itself. But he did tell you there's a lot of redundancy built in.

What the factory produces is used to pay your salaries and buy your food, which all of you consume when you meet in the mess hall.

In your section, there's lots of really mundane looking stuff, like tanks of water, pipes, and stuff like that. Everyone else's section looks a lot like yours, but there are differences here and there. You guys often get bored, and decide to engage in trade. Of course, all you've got is what is on the factory floor...

What you don't know can't hurt you, right?
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September 13, 2011, 01:30:39 PM
 #279

The same analysis applies. What I do with my land indirectly affects your land. Too bad. So sad.

Wait until I create the post in which you become a part owner of the ACME Manufacturing Plant. You'll get your own little section of the factory floor, along with a hundred other libertarians. The owner, who sold all the factory sections to all of you made the grave error of not creating regulations which regulate what you can do to your own sections of the factory floor.

Oh, and he also failed to educate you on how all the machinery works, because it all runs automatically by itself. But he did tell you there's a lot of redundancy built in.

What the factory produces is used to pay your salaries and buy your food, which all of you consume when you meet in the mess hall.

In your section, there's lots of really mundane looking stuff, like tanks of water, pipes, and stuff like that. Everyone else's section looks a lot like yours, but there are differences here and there. You guys often get bored, and decide to engage in trade. Of course, all you've got is what is on the factory floor...

What you don't know can't hurt you, right?

Since none of us are interested in our own personal survival, at no point would most of us voluntarily decide that we should be careful how much we change things. We are all suicidal idiots so we'll just tear it all up, trade it to each other and then die of starvation because that's how we roll.
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September 13, 2011, 04:10:16 PM
 #280

The same analysis applies. What I do with my land indirectly affects your land. Too bad. So sad.

Wait until I create the post in which you become a part owner of the ACME Manufacturing Plant. You'll get your own little section of the factory floor, along with a hundred other libertarians. The owner, who sold all the factory sections to all of you made the grave error of not creating regulations which regulate what you can do to your own sections of the factory floor.

Oh, and he also failed to educate you on how all the machinery works, because it all runs automatically by itself. But he did tell you there's a lot of redundancy built in.

What the factory produces is used to pay your salaries and buy your food, which all of you consume when you meet in the mess hall.

In your section, there's lots of really mundane looking stuff, like tanks of water, pipes, and stuff like that. Everyone else's section looks a lot like yours, but there are differences here and there. You guys often get bored, and decide to engage in trade. Of course, all you've got is what is on the factory floor...

What you don't know can't hurt you, right?

Since none of us are interested in our own personal survival, at no point would most of us voluntarily decide that we should be careful how much we change things. We are all suicidal idiots so we'll just tear it all up, trade it to each other and then die of starvation because that's how we roll.

I'm not sure you know how far we've tipped the bowl of fruit and plundered it.
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