Intellectual Property - In All Fairness!

[AyeYo]

where politics are actually debated intelligently

I'm glad you at least realize that what you and FirstAscent are doing is anything but.

Obviously it was directed at responses like this one, which boils down to the childish, "I know you are, but what am I!"

That's a riot coming from you. You really have no sense of irony.

You can test this. Instead of seeking affirmation of your ideas on a forum where you expect agreement, go float your ideas to people walking out of a store. Or go to a public place and engage in random polls. Feel free to report back the results here - just be honest. Then tell me that my claim that your statements are absurd is false.

Better yet, I'd like to see him (and you as well) sign up over on Honda-tech, where politics are actually debated intelligently.  He can make a couple threads over there and we'll see what the (fairly representative of the US population, some wacko liberatrians included) crowd has to say about his idea.

http://honda-tech.com/forumdisplay.php?f=76

bitcoin2cash,

Join the above politics forum, and I will join it as well. Feel free to invite others who have participated in this thread. Hopefully, AyeYo will join in as well. You will then have the opportunity to show how immature AyeYo and I are to others.

We could just follow the same rules they follow. Why do we need to join a different forum just for you to stop engaging in personal attacks?

Because that forum has 30-40 active participants compared to this forum's 4-5.  It has more shades of gray than this tiny clusterfuck which consists of myself, firstascent, and hawker who all seem to share identical views, and you, atlas, moronshadow, and fred who all share identical nutty views.  It might as well be a 1v1 debate.

A change of venue will bring different shades of opinion into the mix.

[NghtRppr]

As I stated above, I'm not engaging in personal attacks. I will take your hesitancy to join the honda-tech forum as an indication that you are afraid to float your ideas in any environment other than here.

I'll make you a deal. If you stop the insults here, I'll join the forums there. I'll lay down some ground rules and if you agree to them, I'll join the forums. I'll take your hesitancy to agree to some basic rules as an indication that you know your arguments can't stand on their own merits.

[FirstAscent]

As I stated above, I'm not engaging in personal attacks. I will take your hesitancy to join the honda-tech forum as an indication that you are afraid to float your ideas in any environment other than here.

I'll make you a deal. If you stop the insults here, I'll join the forums there. I'll lay down some ground rules and if you agree to them, I'll join the forums. I'll take your hesitancy to agree to some basic rules as an indication that you know your arguments can't stand on their own merits.

We'll follow the rules of the honda-tech forum. I don't know what they are, but I'm willing to agree to their rules (nor yours) without even having read them.

[FirstAscent]

As I stated above, I'm not engaging in personal attacks. I will take your hesitancy to join the honda-tech forum as an indication that you are afraid to float your ideas in any environment other than here.

I'll make you a deal. If you stop the insults here, I'll join the forums there. I'll lay down some ground rules and if you agree to them, I'll join the forums. I'll take your hesitancy to agree to some basic rules as an indication that you know your arguments can't stand on their own merits.

We'll follow the rules of the honda-tech forum. I don't know what they are, but I'm willing to agree to their rules (nor yours) without even having read them.

But I'm willing to start fresh, and assume a clean slate over there.

[AyeYo]

As I stated above, I'm not engaging in personal attacks. I will take your hesitancy to join the honda-tech forum as an indication that you are afraid to float your ideas in any environment other than here.

I'll make you a deal. If you stop the insults here, I'll join the forums there. I'll lay down some ground rules and if you agree to them, I'll join the forums. I'll take your hesitancy to agree to some basic rules as an indication that you know your arguments can't stand on their own merits.

How about, seeing as you joining is actually you doing yourself a favor by getting you out of this circle jerk and letting you express your opinions to fresh faces (not you doing him a favor like you're making it seem), you just join the damn forum and the strict (compared to this place) moderation will take care of any personal insults or dishonest debate.

[AyeYo]

In fact, while you're at it, why don't you just copy/pasta the OP of this thread start a thread there.  We can see how this conversation unfolds with a large group of new people.


Even better ones would the global warming thread, US dollar thread, or the next 100 years thread.

[NghtRppr]

Heated discussions are permissible; however keep it under control and respectful at all times. Do not flame people, and do not instigate fights. Replies are allowed, but remember that respectful conduct is expected. If you disagree with a post, just state your own opinion and reasons for thinking so. Spirited discussions are welcome but do not intentionally start or perpetuate antagonistic or inflammatory threads, particularly those directed at another member. In particular, when someone posts personal insults or attacks, it is better NOT to reply (which can escalate the hostility), but rather, to report the post to a moderator (see the "Contact Us" section below for additional details).

Harassing, intimidating, stalking or threatening other community members is not permitted and will not be tolerated.

No Personal Attacks - Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and we must respect them. Any derogatory remarks will possibly result in one of the following:
- PM warning
- Locked thread
- Deleted post
- Deleted thread
- Infraction
- Ban

2. Intelligent Discussion - This forum is designed to give Honda-Tech users a chance to debate/discuss political matters in an intelligent and mature manner. Please refrain from "flaming" a user for their beliefs. There is a difference between expressing opinions and blatant "flaming"

3. Keep It On Topic - We all need to stop going on tangents in a thread. There are too many threads that contain the same debates and they are repeated over and over. This needs to stop.

4. Enjoy Yourselves!!

This is taken from the site guidelines and politics forum guidelines. Saying that I say absurd things is right out the window. Also, AyeYo will pretty much have to stop posting.

The way I look at it is like this, attack the ideas, not the person that holds them, the argument, not the man. That includes just saying "that idea is idiotic". It needs to be some kind of criticism which leads people to that conclusion, not simply stating the conclusion outright as if it were a fact.

[NghtRppr]

In fact, while you're at it, why don't you just copy/pasta the OP of this thread start a thread there.  We can see how this conversation unfolds with a large group of new people.

I didn't start this thread and completely disagree with the first post, why would I do that?

[FirstAscent]

In fact, while you're at it, why don't you just copy/pasta the OP of this thread start a thread there.  We can see how this conversation unfolds with a large group of new people.

I didn't start this thread and completely disagree with the first post, why would I do that?

Just do as you wish over there. I just signed up. Same name.

[FirstAscent]

In fact, while you're at it, why don't you just copy/pasta the OP of this thread start a thread there.  We can see how this conversation unfolds with a large group of new people.


Even better ones would the global warming thread, US dollar thread, or the next 100 years thread.

Are you signed up over there? Same username?

[AyeYo]

Also, AyeYo will pretty much have to stop posting.

I've been posting there for five years, brah.  

Just keep in mind that those rules apply to you too, namely this one that you seem to have missed:

PLEASE READ: Zero Tolerance Policy for Strawman Arguments

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I see one, I'm going to delete it and dock points. I will not catch all of them but I'll try.

I'm sorry if this seems excessive, but I am really sick of wasting time/bandwidth/the health of my carpal tunnels by defending myself against wrongheaded assumptions that have been either deliberately or erroneously assigned to something I've written.

Everyone WILL be called out on dishonest debate and dodging questions.

[NghtRppr]

Actually, now that I look at that forum it seems the rules are kind of a joke. I see AyeYo being his typical self calling people idiots, etc.

[FirstAscent]

Actually, now that I look at that forum it seems the rules are kind of a joke. I see AyeYo being his typical self calling people idiots, etc.

Would you rather I found some eco-conservation forum for us to all debate? Obviously not. Honda automobiles are pretty neutral on the political spectrum, so it seems as good as any place to debate. Just sign up. I knew nothing of that forum until twenty minutes ago, and you don't see any hesitancy on my part. Get Freddie and whomever else you want over there. Put your ideas to a real test. Educate others beyond this forum about the benefits of your views.

Or should we assume that your hesitancy speaks volumes about your confidence in your ideas?

[NghtRppr]

Actually, now that I look at that forum it seems the rules are kind of a joke. I see AyeYo being his typical self calling people idiots, etc.

Would you rather I found some eco-conservation forum for us to all debate? Obviously not. Honda automobiles are pretty neutral on the political spectrum, so it seems as good as any place to debate. Just sign up. I knew nothing of that forum until twenty minutes ago, and you don't see any hesitancy on my part. Get Freddie and whomever else you want over there. Put your ideas to a real test. Educate others beyond this forum about the benefits of your views.

Or should we assume that your hesitancy speaks volumes about your confidence in your ideas?

The fact that AyeYo has been there five years tells me just about all I need to know about that place. The fact that you seem so keen to change venues seems a little bizarre. Are you incapable of arguing without help? Why does it matter where we debate? Are you incapable of putting my ideas to the test by yourself? I'll let you spin this however you want but the fact remains, I'm here, argue if you want but do so respectfully or you'll be disregarded by me and won't be taken seriously. It's your choice.

[FirstAscent]

The fact that AyeYo has been there five years tells me just about all I need to know about that place. The fact that you seem so keen to change venues seems a little bizarre. Are you incapable of arguing without help? Why does it matter where we debate? I'll let you spin this however you want but the fact remains, I'm here, argue if you want but do so respectfully or you'll be disregarded by me and won't be taken seriously. It's your choice.

You're totally missing the point.

If your ideas are reasonable, not absurd, and make sense, then demonstrate it. You haven't convinced Hawker, ferfalish, AyeYo, or me. Let's see how some random sampling of people outside of this thread react to your ideas after you have presented them and argued in defense of them.

It's not that we need their help. Rather, we wish to make a point. Or, instead, you can demonstrate to others that we're the ones who can't see things reasonably.

[Hawker]

The real difference is that you want us to abandon things that prevent people being killed and allow the likes of the Oklahoma bomber to have nukes.  When someone says millions will die, you say you don't care about consequences.  When someone asks where the right you want us to honour comes from your reply is "from inside my head."

Sorry that is not enough to justify allowing ourselves be killed. 

Again, not only did government programs create nuclear weapons, but the only entity that has used them in a violent manner is the government of the United States. Twice. Against civilians.

You realize this, yet continue to act as if states are the only thing keeping nuclear weapons from killing people.

If nukes are so bad that you'd use violence against an individual immediately upon them acquiring one, to be consistent you should be using violence against governments, not "asking" them to rid themselves of nukes.

We created governments and they implement things we want.  The US won the atom bomb race and American people loved winning WW2.  Don't kid yourself that the governments are separate from us the people.

[NghtRppr]

If your ideas are reasonable, not absurd, and make sense, then demonstrate it.

You can't demonstrate that rights take precedence over consequences. It's obvious that I'm in the minority. Most people think that society has some kind of higher status than individual rights. That's no surprise to me. The fact that the average person would laugh at my point of view demonstrates about as much as people laughing at slaves being freed in the antebellum south. You seem to take popularity very seriously but it's not that important. I'll go ahead and grant you that my views seem very bizarre to the average person and save you some trouble. As a philosopher, that's nothing new to me. Trying to articulate classical problems of philosophy to "aww, shucks" commonsense kind of people usually results in making philosophers seem like idiots that worry over trivialities. You definitely require a sophisticated understanding before you can appreciate subtle and difficult problems. Congratulations, you've proven that the common man is common.

[FirstAscent]

If your ideas are reasonable, not absurd, and make sense, then demonstrate it.

You can't demonstrate that rights take precedence over consequences. It's obvious that I'm in the minority. Most people think that society has some kind of higher status than individual rights. That's no surprise to me. The fact that the average person would laugh at my point of view demonstrates about as much as people laughing at slaves being freed in the antebellum south. You seem to take popularity very seriously but it's not that important. I'll go ahead and grant you that my views seem very bizarre to the average person and save you some trouble. As a philosopher, that's nothing new to me. Trying to articulate classical problems of philosophy to "aww, shucks" commonsense kind of people usually results in making philosophers seem like idiots that worry over trivialities. You definitely require a sophisticated understanding before you can appreciate subtle and difficult problems. Congratulations, you've proven that the common man is common.

Someone thinks he belongs to the intellectual elite. Then start debating the intellectual elite, which, apparently, the likes of myself, AyeYo, fergalish and Hawker are not. Do you want me to provide you with some names that you can debate, since we're not up to par?

Regarding consequences, last time I checked, consequences are what lie in my future, and everybody else's. And what's in our future is all we have. Literally.

[Hawker]

If your ideas are reasonable, not absurd, and make sense, then demonstrate it.

You can't demonstrate that rights take precedence over consequences. It's obvious that I'm in the minority. Most people think that society has some kind of higher status than individual rights. That's no surprise to me. The fact that the average person would laugh at my point of view demonstrates about as much as people laughing at slaves being freed in the antebellum south. You seem to take popularity very seriously but it's not that important. I'll go ahead and grant you that my views seem very bizarre to the average person and save you some trouble. As a philosopher, that's nothing new to me. Trying to articulate classical problems of philosophy to "aww, shucks" commonsense kind of people usually results in making philosophers seem like idiots that worry over trivialities. You definitely require a sophisticated understanding before you can appreciate subtle and difficult problems. Congratulations, you've proven that the common man is common.

I think you are understating the difficulty of your position.  The position you take is that people should die for your ideals.  A fresh outbreak of smallpox could well kill a billion people.  If terrorists can have nukes, most towns and cities with over 1000 population will be vaporised in an endless tit for tat that could well end in all humanity being eliminated.  

That is a huge sacrifice to ask and you offer nothing by way of reward for the sacrifice.  Saying you have an idea in your head and that millions should die for it is not a "sophisticated understanding."

[FirstAscent]

You definitely require a sophisticated understanding before you can appreciate subtle and difficult problems.

I agree with this and I have said this to you many times. I've patiently explained to you that you can't slap your political ideology broadly to the world and society and hope it works. I've explained that to you, after it became obvious to me that you lacked a sophisticated understanding of many topics external to your political ideology. I believe the topics were related to deforestation, ecosystems, species decimation, riparian zones, trophic cascades, edge effects, etc.

Thank you for summarizing my viewpoint (and undermining yours) in one succinct sentence.