Why do people think income tax is ok?

[erikalui]

Taxes are enslavement. If people pay taxes voluntarily, they aren't taxes. They are purchases, or donations.

The idea of a voluntary tax is an oxymoron self-contradiction. Either it is a tax = slavery. Or it is a donation/purchase.

Excellent thought I must say. So people who are willing to give donations are not slaves while those who are forced to pay taxes are slaves?

I guess then 99% people would love NOT to pay for their food/electricity/housing/clothes and those who are forced to pay for the same are slaves. We should get everything for free then life would be a pleasure right?

[BADecker]

Taxes are enslavement. If people pay taxes voluntarily, they aren't taxes. They are purchases, or donations.

The idea of a voluntary tax is an oxymoron self-contradiction. Either it is a tax = slavery. Or it is a donation/purchase.

Excellent thought I must say. So people who are willing to give donations are not slaves while those who are forced to pay taxes are slaves?

I guess then 99% people would love NOT to pay for their food/electricity/housing/clothes and those who are forced to pay for the same are slaves. We should get everything for free then life would be a pleasure right?

The people who get their "stuff" free are slaves. And so are the people who are taxed to pay for the ones that get their stuff free.

Part of the reason that there is an economic problem in America is, the numbers of slaves who are getting their stuff free (welfare people and politicians) is increasing, while the numbers supporting them through taxes (workers) is decreasing.

Thank goodness that part of the decreasing numbers of taxpayers includes a bunch of folks who have figured out how to legally get out of paying taxes.

[neoneros]

In the end all we pay are taxes, half of what we earn goes directly into taxes, everything we buy has a tax amount.

We are modern slaves, not because of the taxes, but the other payments for the banks and loans. It are those shackles from which we have to free ourselves. We are slaves to the belief we should work hard for our money, the idea we actualy need all that money, but the economy is regulated so you never have enough, you only get just enough to make ends meet. We can work less and earn more, it is just a case of distribution. We are on our way to the utopia that has been envisioned at the start of the industrial revolution and brought close to by the digital revolution, the third and final stage is the economic revolution: enter the bitcoin age!

Do the welfare and politicians really outnumber the bankers and their greed? There is enough for everyone, there are studies showing that a basic income does benefit the whole community, those who work hard get their rewards, those who are smart can still be greedy, those who seek other means of happiness can do so without the worry and burden of the money that has enslaved us all. Switzerland is setting it up for real now, fingers crossed and let it spread, let it thrust the economic revolution and get us closer to utopia.

[Mike Christ]

Oh well, I'm talking about getting rid of all taxes

What system do you propose for paying for schools, roads, hospitals, emergency services etc?

Ever hear of this thing called "the market"?  Apparently it's pretty popular with literally everything else in existence.

[neoneros]

Oh well, I'm talking about getting rid of all taxes

What system do you propose for paying for schools, roads, hospitals, emergency services etc?

Ever hear of this thing called "the market"?  Apparently it's pretty popular with literally everything else in existence.

The market, where layer upon layer of capitalist bureaucracy is added, middlemen invoicing middleman stacking up the costs and providing labour only to scrape of the margins, spending millions to reel in your customers, cutting back in service and quality. No one is getting better when the market gets involved.

In our country, the healthcare is put on the free market, the prices have gone up since and still rising, the insurance companies are numerous, dividing the collective and lowering the total spendable amount on healthcare. They are destroying it only for profit, the people suffering are the ones who need it the most. Less and less is possible. Money is flowing into funds and bonusses, companies setting up dummy corporations to invest in and lose their money legaly into obscure constructions.

Same goes for energy and other markets. Don't get me started. We will never benefit of the free market system when the scale is beyond the small community.

[BADecker]

Oh well, I'm talking about getting rid of all taxes

What system do you propose for paying for schools, roads, hospitals, emergency services etc?

Ever hear of this thing called "the market"?  Apparently it's pretty popular with literally everything else in existence.

The market, where layer upon layer of capitalist bureaucracy is added, middlemen invoicing middleman stacking up the costs and providing labour only to scrape of the margins, spending millions to reel in your customers, cutting back in service and quality. No one is getting better when the market gets involved.

In our country, the healthcare is put on the free market, the prices have gone up since and still rising, the insurance companies are numerous, dividing the collective and lowering the total spendable amount on healthcare. They are destroying it only for profit, the people suffering are the ones who need it the most. Less and less is possible. Money is flowing into funds and bonusses, companies setting up dummy corporations to invest in and lose their money legaly into obscure constructions.

Same goes for energy and other markets. Don't get me started. We will never benefit of the free market system when the scale is beyond the small community.

You could have said it faster by saying, where there is a market of fools and simpletons, you will find no end of politicians who will screw them.

[neoneros]

you could replace the 'politicians' with scrooges, but it sums it up neatly

[BADecker]

you could replace the 'politicians' with scrooges, but it sums it up neatly

Yes, you are right. We all prey on each other, even simpleton on simpleton at times.

 

[BADecker]

I have talked to many common, everyday people who think that the income tax is somewhat okay. They don't think it is perfect. But they think that it is necessary to keep the country going. And they may be right in some limited ways.

These people don't understand that over 99% of the things that government does for us can be done better through simple purchase of the service by those who want it... rather than having government supply the service at the point of an income tax collection gun.

Almost nobody realizes that the income tax exists only as a measurement of how much the government can influence ignorant people to keep on paying the tax, because if they didn't pay, the banking system would foreclose on the government. And who knows what would happen then, if anything.

Far fewer people than even this realize that, because the government was able to set a banking system in place that would operate like this, that the whole system of government in its entirety is fraudulent. There really isn't any government. There are only people who think that there is. And because they think that there is, they enforce something that exists only in their imaginations.

[V for Varoufakis]

Tax is good in combination with a non-debt banking system. The problem is debt, not the tax.

[RodeoX]

I see a lot of people denounce taxation as evil. But you know what I never see? A denunciation of benefits derived from taxation. Let's see a commitment to leaving the evil United States for the freedom of Somalia. Or only drive on private roads, collect no benefits, put your own hose fires out, and forget about calling the cops when your robbed.

Americans live in the most prosperous society in history and enjoy the safest times in all human history. Of course many will think this is wrong, but that is because these things are relative. Never have you had the opportunity to live to an old age, free of war and starvation, able to say what you want. This is as good as it gets and it is taxes that pay for it.

I'm not saying I agree with all the money goes, or that things are getting better. But befor we decide that taxes are a problem you will need to show me where the billions of dollars that support us are going to come from.

[RodeoX]

I see a lot of ...

This thread is not against tax as such...

Good point. I was more thinking of those who responded with an argument against all taxation. But as you point out, there are other ways/things to tax. I'm with you on that subject. It is wrong the way we tax working people at a much higher rate that those who profit from the work. I like the idea of taxing us on what we spend.

[BADecker]

I see a lot of people denounce taxation as evil. But you know what I never see? A denunciation of benefits derived from taxation. Let's see a commitment to leaving the evil United States for the freedom of Somalia. Or only drive on private roads, collect no benefits, put your own hose fires out, and forget about calling the cops when your robbed.

Americans live in the most prosperous society in history and enjoy the safest times in all human history. Of course many will think this is wrong, but that is because these things are relative. Never have you had the opportunity to live to an old age, free of war and starvation, able to say what you want. This is as good as it gets and it is taxes that pay for it.

I'm not saying I agree with all the money goes, or that things are getting better. But befor we decide that taxes are a problem you will need to show me where the billions of dollars that support us are going to come from.

This thread is not against tax as such, it's against income tax which is only one way of generating tax revenue. As I just suggested in my previous post, taxing corporate profits would generate way more revenue than taxing the incomes of individuals. This is a huge untapped source of tax revenue since corporations pay close to zero taxes. Note that I'm talking about what they actually pay, not what they claim they pay. Another option would be an estate tax. Passing wealth on from one generation to the next is really a primitive practice completely out of touch with modern times, and makes no sense if you subject it to any kind of critical scrutiny. Let people earn their money instead of inheriting it. There are many, many other alternatives to INCOME tax.

Corporations derive their money from sales to individuals and other companies. Taxation of corporate profits would simply be passed on, ultimately, to the people. It is a hidden tax.

The only two reasons for taxation of the individual (at least in the U.S.) are:
1. To keep the people helpless;
2: As a measurement of the amount of money the government can borrow from the Federal Reserve Bank.

Rather than paying taxes, drop the tax completely. For example. Texas and several other States require no income tax. Rather, the State gets theirs from sales tax.

If Texas would only make the people who received the benefits to be the ones who paid for the benefits, rather than making everyone join in and pay, things might be more equitable. For example. Why should I pay taxes that help pay other kids way through public school? I get nothing for it if I don't have kids.

Consider roads. Make the people who use the roads pay a toll. Stop making us all pay for roads when we don't use most of them.

Let's get government out of everything except advising. Let's do everything on the private side, because government merely dips their hand into the pie and takes some of it out for themselves. We still have to pay the contractors who build all the whatever anyway.

In addition, if business ran as efficiently as government... well, you don't hear about those businesses, because they failed long ago.

[neoneros]

Why should I pay taxes that help pay other kids way through public school? I get nothing for it if I don't have kids.

Consider roads. Make the people who use the roads pay a toll. Stop making us all pay for roads when we don't use most of them.

Other peoples kids go to school, so when you are older they can take care of you in hospitals, take your order in the drive thru or any other job these young kids get nowadays

The road is used by other people, to go to work, to deliver packages, to get a lot of stuff you need from point A to point B.

you do not actively use the road, but the road is used for you. You do not have children who need education, but you profit from the education of other peoples children.

[cbase]

The power to tax is the power to destroy. I think income tax and property tax are just wrong. What do you think?

I think, being part of a community puts certain responsibilities on the 'participants' of the community, and since we as a members of a society have repeatedly failed to think beyond our personal propaganda you have to be 'taxed' to maintain your ecosystem.
Thoughts?

[BADecker]

The power to tax is the power to destroy. I think income tax and property tax are just wrong. What do you think?

I think, being part of a community puts certain responsibilities on the 'participants' of the community, and since we as a members of a society have repeatedly failed to think beyond our personal propaganda you have to be 'taxed' to maintain your ecosystem.
Thoughts?

That's right.
But, how does one become part of a community?
How close do you have to live to another person to become part of a community with him?
If a group of people form a community, how close do you have to live to them before you become part of their community?
If the people say that anyone living within x miles of a certain point are part of their community, what gives them the right?
If people say that they are going to tax all people living inside certain borders, what gives them the right?

Somebody said might makes right. Might might make what exists, but why does it make it right?

If someone is tricked into signing a compact to pay taxes, especially when he doesn't realize that he signed such, or what it is he signed, is that right?
So, what are the terms of the community?

Community stuff, and taxation stuff, is simply people stating what will be done to other people (and maybe themselves so that things look good). That is a form of slavery.

Show exactly where the tax money of any individual person went, and the receipt for the exact benefit any individual received for the money he paid in taxes. You can't. It was pooled. And the funds went to pay for all kinds of stuff that any particular individual would say is wrong, all because somebody else decided that he had to pay taxes, and decided the way they were to be spent. That is a form of slavery.

[erikalui]

Corporations derive their money from sales to individuals and other companies. Taxation of corporate profits would simply be passed on, ultimately, to the people. It is a hidden tax.

The only two reasons for taxation of the individual (at least in the U.S.) are:
1. To keep the people helpless;
2: As a measurement of the amount of money the government can borrow from the Federal Reserve Bank.

Rather than paying taxes, drop the tax completely. For example. Texas and several other States require no income tax. Rather, the State gets theirs from sales tax.

If Texas would only make the people who received the benefits to be the ones who paid for the benefits, rather than making everyone join in and pay, things might be more equitable. For example. Why should I pay taxes that help pay other kids way through public school? I get nothing for it if I don't have kids.

Consider roads. Make the people who use the roads pay a toll. Stop making us all pay for roads when we don't use most of them.

Let's get government out of everything except advising. Let's do everything on the private side, because government merely dips their hand into the pie and takes some of it out for themselves. We still have to pay the contractors who build all the whatever anyway.

In addition, if business ran as efficiently as government... well, you don't hear about those businesses, because they failed long ago.

I don't think you even need to have a Government for your country as you are enough to run a country with your own knowledge. You pretend to be not using roads, not going to a school, not eating food, not making use of any services that the Government provides you with in return of the taxes you pay.

The taxes may be much more than you can afford but they aren't unnecessary. They all help in the development of a country while if everyone starts thinking like you, all countries would be without schools/colleges/buildings/proper roads/water supplies and I guess you would love that life then. I don't think you have never used any service that you have paid taxes for.

[BADecker]

Corporations derive their money from sales to individuals and other companies. Taxation of corporate profits would simply be passed on, ultimately, to the people. It is a hidden tax.

The only two reasons for taxation of the individual (at least in the U.S.) are:
1. To keep the people helpless;
2: As a measurement of the amount of money the government can borrow from the Federal Reserve Bank.

Rather than paying taxes, drop the tax completely. For example. Texas and several other States require no income tax. Rather, the State gets theirs from sales tax.

If Texas would only make the people who received the benefits to be the ones who paid for the benefits, rather than making everyone join in and pay, things might be more equitable. For example. Why should I pay taxes that help pay other kids way through public school? I get nothing for it if I don't have kids.

Consider roads. Make the people who use the roads pay a toll. Stop making us all pay for roads when we don't use most of them.

Let's get government out of everything except advising. Let's do everything on the private side, because government merely dips their hand into the pie and takes some of it out for themselves. We still have to pay the contractors who build all the whatever anyway.

In addition, if business ran as efficiently as government... well, you don't hear about those businesses, because they failed long ago.

I don't think you even need to have a Government for your country as you are enough to run a country with your own knowledge. You pretend to be not using roads, not going to a school, not eating food, not making use of any services that the Government provides you with in return of the taxes you pay.

The taxes may be much more than you can afford but they aren't unnecessary. They all help in the development of a country while if everyone starts thinking like you, all countries would be without schools/colleges/buildings/proper roads/water supplies and I guess you would love that life then. I don't think you have never used any service that you have paid taxes for.

Just as a picture...

All the things we need and use cost $$$.

Government collects $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and more in taxes.

Then government pays $$$ for all the things we need and use.

The people of Government stick the rest in their pockets.

We don't need government. They WANT us, to farm us, and rape and plunder us.

[miki77miki]

Taxation is theft no matter what, If I stole a $10 bill from your wallet and used half to buy you a chocolate bar and the other half to buy drugs, does it make it ok?

[neoneros]

Taxation is theft no matter what, If I stole a $10 bill from your wallet and used half to buy you a chocolate bar and the other half to buy drugs, does it make it ok?

That depends, what kind of chocolate did you have in mind? And how much of it? And can't we split the chocolate and the drugs and be buddies?