Why do people think income tax is ok?

[hilariousandco]

Really? Who will pay for the poor when they can't afford healthcare of insurance? Will you feed/home/clothe/help them?

And you'll only go to prison if you owe money in taxes. Simple solution: don't owe any taxes. But of course, you want to pay these taxes whilst taking everything they offer and simultaneously denouncing the government and all their 'sub-par' services they offer.

I'd gladly contribute to charities which I believe make a real difference. And if those charities start fiddling their expenses or embezzling money I'd instantly switch my donations to another one. What's the choice now - wait five years for a vote, and expect that to make a difference?

Seeing as I have an income, I owe money in taxes. Seeing as I need an income to live and sustain a decent standard of living, there's no choice about tax. Tax isn't voluntary.

It's high for who exactly?

The middle-class majority.

Poor you.

Is working not voluntary either? Were you forced into a high-paying job by someone? It continually baffles me how people seem to think that they don't have a choice. You choose to work and choose to pay taxes on the money you earn, you just like to have a whine about it sat in front of your iMacs and iPhones whilst shaking your first angrily at all that tax you was (not) "forced" to pay on them.

You could vote with your taxes. Stop paying their wages, but of course people don't want to do this as they don't want the possible discomfort because you want your cushy little life and lots of money and nice things. I don't think you can have it both ways.

[westkybitcoins]

Is working not voluntary either? Were you forced into a high-paying job by someone? It continually baffles me how people seem to think that they don't have a choice. You choose to work and choose to pay taxes on the money you earn, you just like to have a whine about it sat in front of your iMacs and iPhones whilst shaking your first angrily at all that tax you was (not) "forced" to pay on them.

Have you ever taken a look at people who try to be productive and work, and also try to not pay taxes? The force quickly becomes evident.

EDIT: Of course, I'm speaking of within countries where they steal your labor and call it an "income tax."

[hilariousandco]

Is working not voluntary either? Were you forced into a high-paying job by someone? It continually baffles me how people seem to think that they don't have a choice. You choose to work and choose to pay taxes on the money you earn, you just like to have a whine about it sat in front of your iMacs and iPhones whilst shaking your first angrily at all that tax you was (not) "forced" to pay on them.

Have you ever taken a look at people who try to be productive and work, and also try to not pay taxes? The force quickly becomes evident.

EDIT: Of course, I'm speaking of within countries where they steal your labor and call it an "income tax."

I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Can you elaborate?

[countryfree]

People often complain that public services are shoddy yet I've never really had any problems with the NHS or police or environmental health services etc etc nor do I know anyone who has. Could they be run more efficiently and better? Of course. If I had any say I'd slash the defence budget and stop frittering money away on wars and put that money back into the system, but regardless of that; if your house burns down or you're in a serious accident you'll get sorted fairly quickly, but yeah, you might have to wait a few hours, but I can guarantee you wont get sorted pretty quick if we got rid of all these public services and you had to rely on community & charity emergency services or you couldn't afford to pay for them. People don't seem to think about the impact their choices have on others, just as long as they can say "I want the right to choose", and people already have that, but they'd just rather hypocritically keep paying their taxes and not cause a fuss.

I don't have the right to access public services in the country I'm currently staying, so I can't speak for myself, but I hear the locals complain a lot, and there has to be a reason. Back to myself, since I'm much less "protected" by a nation above my shoulders, I have to be much more cautious. Now, let's imagine a world where everybody would live in a foreign country, without access to the safety net they have in their own country. I say it would be a better place.

[tspacepilot]

The reason that I think that income tax is okay is that my government uses it to do useful things for everyone.  One example is funding the public transportation system which we all benefit from (both riders and non-riders benefit; non-riders benefit from reduced traffic on the roads).  There are many other examples of useful things which can be done with taxes.

[Mike Christ]

The reason that I think that income tax is okay is that my government uses it to do useful things for everyone.  One example is funding the public transportation system which we all benefit from (both riders and non-riders benefit; non-riders benefit from reduced traffic on the roads).  There are many other examples of useful things which can be done with taxes.

We can argue anything is okay if it has benefits; perhaps the holocaust benefited someone who needed a Jew dead.  Naturally, we view the holocaust as a bad thing, because we apply the concepts of ethics.  I personally believe ethics should come standard to any society, otherwise it only collapses in the end; without a clear vision of what's acceptable behavior and what isn't, we get stuck with dichotomies such as, "It's okay for these people to steal and kidnap, but not okay for those people", and law so convoluted that not even lawyers understand it completely, so overdone that the average Joe commits at least one crime daily.  Naturally, anyone who wants to steal and kidnap legally flocks to the first group, and anyone who believes in a virtuous society gets stuck at the wrong end of the gun; it punishes the good and rewards the bad, and I'm certain you would agree that this is not the kind of behavior we should respond positively to, especially not when we have our own laws against theft that do not apply to this special group.

You are arguing that theft is moral if it leads to positive outcomes; this is an impossible position to hold without the belief that not everyone deserves equal rights, with yourself being one of those people who requires less rights than others, which is the most troubling aspect of such a belief; surely you seek the same rights as everyone else, don't we all?  If some people can steal, why can't we all?  Rather, I would prefer it if we all had this right to protect ourselves from thieves, as opposed to the right of robbing everyone, as the former seems sustainable.

Even if the stolen money is used for good deeds, are you not capable of paying for these good deeds voluntarily?  Are there unknown forces of this world which prevents people from paying for the transportation that only the group with special rights can conquer?  It seems unlikely to me.

[tspacepilot]

The reason that I think that income tax is okay is that my government uses it to do useful things for everyone.  One example is funding the public transportation system which we all benefit from (both riders and non-riders benefit; non-riders benefit from reduced traffic on the roads).  There are many other examples of useful things which can be done with taxes.

We can argue anything is okay if it has benefits; perhaps the holocaust benefited someone who needed a Jew dead.  Naturally, we view the holocaust as a bad thing, because we apply the concepts of ethics.  I personally believe ethics should come standard to any society, otherwise it only collapses in the end; without a clear vision of what's acceptable behavior and what isn't, we get stuck with dichotomies such as, "It's okay for these people to steal and kidnap, but not okay for those people", and law so convoluted that not even lawyers understand it completely, so overdone that the average Joe commits at least one crime daily.  Naturally, anyone who wants to steal and kidnap legally flocks to the first group, and anyone who believes in a virtuous society gets stuck at the wrong end of the gun; it punishes the good and rewards the bad, and I'm certain you would agree that this is not the kind of behavior we should respond positively to, especially not when we have our own laws against theft that do not apply to this special group.

You are arguing that theft is moral if it leads to positive outcomes; this is an impossible position to hold without the belief that not everyone deserves equal rights, with yourself being one of those people who requires less rights than others, which is the most troubling aspect of such a belief; surely you seek the same rights as everyone else, don't we all?  If some people can steal, why can't we all?  Rather, I would prefer it if we all had this right to protect ourselves from thieves, as opposed to the right of robbing everyone, as the former seems sustainable.

Even if the stolen money is used for good deeds, are you not capable of paying for these good deeds voluntarily?  Are there unknown forces of this world which prevents people from paying for the transportation that only the group with special rights can conquer?  It seems unlikely to me.

I think you're argument against my rationale is that while I may think that tax money may be spent on useful things for everyone, another may disagree, and therefore we have to decide who is correct.  Do I understand you?

[PrintMule]

We can argue anything is okay if it has benefits; perhaps the holocaust benefited someone who needed a Jew dead.  Naturally, we view the holocaust as a bad thing, because we apply the concepts of ethics.  I personally believe ethics should come standard to any society, otherwise it only collapses in the end

Nazi Germany collapsed because it took a bite bigger than it could chew, not because of it's unethical ways.
America is unethical - they are doing ok. Emirates are very unethical - also ok. Etc, etc, etc...

On a side note: "holocaust" benefited every other jew on the planet. Mostly it enabled the bitching and moaning, or rather the "right to bitch and moan".

[bitlancr]

Poor you.

Is working not voluntary either? Were you forced into a high-paying job by someone? It continually baffles me how people seem to think that they don't have a choice. You choose to work and choose to pay taxes on the money you earn, you just like to have a whine about it sat in front of your iMacs and iPhones whilst shaking your first angrily at all that tax you was (not) "forced" to pay on them.

You could vote with your taxes. Stop paying their wages, but of course people don't want to do this as they don't want the possible discomfort because you want your cushy little life and lots of money and nice things. I don't think you can have it both ways.

Take a step back and read this again.

You're saying it's fine to steal from someone just because they've decided to work and better their life. Is that a morally defensible position?

Again, what's the alternative? To live, you either earn an income, or you take from others. You seem to be advocating the latter.

[hilariousandco]

Poor you.

Is working not voluntary either? Were you forced into a high-paying job by someone? It continually baffles me how people seem to think that they don't have a choice. You choose to work and choose to pay taxes on the money you earn, you just like to have a whine about it sat in front of your iMacs and iPhones whilst shaking your first angrily at all that tax you was (not) "forced" to pay on them.

You could vote with your taxes. Stop paying their wages, but of course people don't want to do this as they don't want the possible discomfort because you want your cushy little life and lots of money and nice things. I don't think you can have it both ways.

Take a step back and read this again.

You're saying it's fine to steal from someone just because they've decided to work and better their life. Is that a morally defensible position?

Again, what's the alternative? To live, you either earn an income, or you take from others. You seem to be advocating the latter.

Nope. You can work and not pay any income or council tax or move to a place that doesn't require these things if you're so offended and outraged by state "theft". And it's not stealing if you willingly give up something. You choose to do that. You can't have it both ways. Or you could, but I guess you're not willing to do that or find ways around it without making some sacrifices, so you just continue paying your masters wages whilst doing nothing but complaining about it on the internet.

[bitlancr]

...it's not stealing if you willingly give up something.

For the umpteenth time, I do not willingly pay tax. I pay tax because I don't want to:

a) Go to prison;
b) Leave my friends and family;
c) Live off the work of others.

You can call those 'choices' if you want - same way as if you were mugged at knifepoint in the street, you might 'choose' to give up your wallet to avoid being stabbed. Doesn't make it voluntary, does it?

[hilariousandco]

...it's not stealing if you willingly give up something.

For the umpteenth time, I do not willingly pay tax. I pay tax because I don't want to:

a) Go to prison;
b) Leave my friends and family;
c) Live off the work of others.

You can call those 'choices' if you want - same way as if you were mugged at knifepoint in the street, you might 'choose' to give up your wallet to avoid being stabbed. Doesn't make it voluntary, does it?

For the umpteenth time: You choose to live your life this way, so that doesn't make it involuntary, does it? What does your friends or family have to do with this? You chose to stay with them. Choices you all made.

And d) Earn under the tax threshold, but you don't want to play the game this way, so you willingly choose to pay the taxes on the money that you owe. You can't get a free ride this way I'm afraid.

[bitlancr]

Go back to my mugging at knifepoint example. You 'choose' to give up your wallet to avoid being stabbed. Is that voluntary?

As for the tax threshold: do you expect someone to be able to live on £9k/year without relying on handouts from others? You're clutching at straws here.

[hilariousandco]

Go back to my mugging at knifepoint example. You 'choose' to give up your wallet to avoid being stabbed. Is that voluntary?

As for the tax threshold: do you expect someone to be able to live on £9k/year without relying on handouts from others? You're clutching at straws here.

Of course you can live on it. I've lived on much less than that before. I've also known people who have lived on less than what I have with no state benefits whatsoever.

And your mugging example is irrelevant. What you're doing is walking up to a "mugger" and giving him your wallet. I think it's you who's clutching at straws here, especially since you can't comprehend between theft and giving people money.

[bitlancr]

So you're saying by earning over £9k, I'm voluntarily handing myself over to a mugger. In other words, everybody above the lowest common denominator should be mugged. Is that your idea of a just society?

Evidently it is, so we might just have to agree to disagree on this one. I'll keep pushing for freedom from tyranny, and you keep searching for that benevolent government to fix the world's ills.

[hilariousandco]

So you're saying by earning over £9k, I'm voluntarily handing myself over to a mugger. In other words, everybody above the lowest common denominator should be mugged. Is that your idea of a just society?

Evidently it is, so we might just have to agree to disagree on this one. I'll keep pushing for freedom from tyranny, and you keep searching for that benevolent government to fix the world's ills.

You're choosing to play someone else’s game by their rules. If you do so willingly you cannot complain when you have to pay their fines or go straight to jail. My idea of a just society is where everybody pays a fair amount and all of society benefits.

And there wouldn't be an all powerful government if people didn’t keep paying their wages. I'd rather put people into power who care about people over profit, and just because something isn't working as well as it could be doesn't mean to say we have to destroy the system and let the poorest among us feel the full weight of that come crashing down upon them.

[Carlton Banks]

hilariousandco - you're talking past everyone and not getting the point

take five minutes to watch this bitcoin presentation, the way this guy explains it is amongst the best I've heard.

[uranian]

...it's not stealing if you willingly give up something.

For the umpteenth time, I do not willingly pay tax. I pay tax because I don't want to:

a) Go to prison;
b) Leave my friends and family;
c) Live off the work of others.

You can call those 'choices' if you want - same way as if you were mugged at knifepoint in the street, you might 'choose' to give up your wallet to avoid being stabbed. Doesn't make it voluntary, does it?

I don't know if hilariousandco is just playing devil's advocate or if he's a serial liar:

I pretend to be a woman online and set up a website pretending to be a financial dominatrix. Every now and again I get random shit sent to me from my Amazon Wishlist and I smile. Men are idiots.

But I don't think there's much point debating someone who is obviously not being intellectually honest.

[hilariousandco]

hilariousandco - you're talking past everyone and not getting the point

take five minutes to watch this bitcoin presentation, the way this guy explains it is amongst the best I've heard.

Five minutes to watch a video that is 65 minutes long? And what point am I not getting?

...it's not stealing if you willingly give up something.

For the umpteenth time, I do not willingly pay tax. I pay tax because I don't want to:

a) Go to prison;
b) Leave my friends and family;
c) Live off the work of others.

You can call those 'choices' if you want - same way as if you were mugged at knifepoint in the street, you might 'choose' to give up your wallet to avoid being stabbed. Doesn't make it voluntary, does it?

I don't know if hilariousandco is just playing devil's advocate or if he's a serial liar:

I pretend to be a woman online and set up a website pretending to be a financial dominatrix. Every now and again I get random shit sent to me from my Amazon Wishlist and I smile. Men are idiots.

But I don't think there's much point debating someone who is obviously not being intellectually honest.

I wasn't being serious about that, but how is that being 'intellectually dishonest' or where are my other serial lies? I also don't get how that invalidates my argument here.

[practicaldreamer]

Why do people think income tax is ok?

I think the question should really be Why do people think paying VAT is OK ?

Value Added Tax hits everyone the same, wether you are a billionaire or struggling to make ends meet. Its not related to your ability to pay (in the same way that the old Poll Tax that Thatcher introduced wasn't) and so, to me, is an unjust and inefficient way to tax.

My solution ?

Get rid of VAT and increase the income tax on the 1% highlighted in the recent Oxfam report  to make up for the loss in revenues

The report states:

Almost half of the world’s wealth is now owned by just one percent of the population.
The wealth of the one percent richest people in the world amounts to $110 trillion. That’s 65 times the total wealth of the bottom half of the world’s population.
The bottom half of the world’s population owns the same as the richest 85 people in the world.
Seven out of ten people live in countries where economic inequality has increased in the last 30 years.
The richest one percent increased their share of income in 24 out of 26 countries for which we have data between 1980 and 2012.
In the US, the wealthiest one percent captured 95 percent of post-financial crisis growth since 2009, while the bottom 90 percent became poorer.