[ANN][AUTO-SWITCH] Profit-switch auto-exchange pool: CleverMining.com

[Hotsauce]

Last I looked mc was at 0.0109, but hard to compare as the page I uses, are calculated from last payout.

Which page is that?

[pjv]

@Terk, you have by far the best looking site out of all the auto-exchanging multipools out there, yet somehow these other pools are gaining hashrate far more rapidly than yours, which is unfortunate.

Now instead of it being the need to master some dark arts to get your hashrate up, I feel you should think about reconsidering your strategy and offer full transparency on the coins you're mining and the fees you're charging.

Your initial strategy of keeping things secret but still managing to keep miners based on the look and feel of your site clearly isn't working, people in the crypto community have been scammed in every corner they turn to and need full transparency and trust when it comes to where they point their precious miners, I feel you should respect that and if you want any chance of becoming the biggest multipool start rethinking your strategy.

Just my 2c, I hate seeing other new multipools overtake yours because I really love your site.

TL;DR change your strategy and become fully transparent otherwise all your hard work will be for nothing.

FWIW, just as an alternate opinion on this issue, I don't require any of this kind of transparency at all to point my hashes at clevermining. I also don't need a well-designed website. I have hashed at middlecoin and at wafflepool and their pedestrian websites don't put me off at all. I do not care what coin the pool is mining at any given time. I really only care about maximizing my profit and I don't need @Terk to tell me how he is doing that as long as he is actually doing it. I also don't care what his fees are. If his fees are literally 5 times higher than the fees at middlecoin or wafflepool, but I am still banking more coin to my wallet, then I am happy to pay those fees. In my reality, there is no such thing as "fair" fees. If @Terk figures out how to get me more coins for my hashrate than I can get elsewhere, then he can charge me whatever he wants to put more coins in my wallet than I can get elsewhere.

The only transparency that I need is as follows:

1. The indisputable and irreversible BTC deposits into my wallet should match up with the claimed stats on the website
2. Nobody else who is mining at the pool should be reporting discrepancies in what they are actually being paid

For me, the reason that I am currently hashing at clevermining is that from the care of design of his website and from his responsiveness in this thread, I believe that @Terk is putting in a good-faith effort to create a more profitable pool and based on the quality of his work that I have seen so far, I think it is possible/probable that he may be better at it than others. But I will switch to another pool as soon as I don't believe that anymore.

So far, for me the results are still inconclusive. On the plus side the reported history of profitability looks to me a bit better than middlecoin and a fair bit better than wafflepool, though I don't think there is enough history yet for that to be conclusive. My own experience is that my daily earnings at clevermining have been roughly on par with my daily earnings at middlecoin - within the statistical noise that mining is. But that is also not conclusive to me because I haven't mined long enough at either pool to get past the statistical noise.

I'm not saying that you are not correct for yourself and others requiring the kind of transparency that you are asking for in order for clevermining to gain more hashers. You might be totally right about that. I'm just saying that that is not true for me. Given the ease of pointing one's miner at another pool at a moment's notice, I just utterly fail to see how @Terk could possibly be taking advantage or scamming anyone. As long as the payouts are hitting miner's wallets, I just don't see any space available for ripping anyone off. And obviously the moment the payouts are not happening, or are not competitive, it will be completely obvious to everyone and there will instantly be no more clevermining.

At absolute BEST, @Terk might be able to walk away with one day's take before everyone left. My guess is not even that. And given what he has obviously invested in sweat so far, my judgement is that he has much more financial incentive to make the results as competitive as possible and pull in his percentage for the long haul.

That's my 2c.

[cokeman0]

Last I looked mc was at 0.0109, but hard to compare as the page I uses, are calculated from last payout.

Which page is that?

I'm using this page, and a dude that's has around 270MH.

http://middlecoin.info/flotchart.php?BTC=1BtzFDErNKMMFeCSkho9tK7Cr8eus64x5K

[Terk]

Profitability will have to kill wafflepool for that to be the case tho

So anyone ran a parallel side-by-side comparison between clevermining and middlecoin?

CleverMining had some rough days after launch. First days had technical problems which affected profitability. Then we unsuccessfully thrown ourselves at DOGE with too little hashrate. Except these 7 days, previous profitability (during closed beta) was significantly higher than Waffle. I publish daily numbers for the last 30 days so you can check profitability history. Unfortunately comparing to Waffle will be hard as they stopped publishing long-term data very recently and now show only the last 7 days.

Comparing us to Middlecoin - and I am being honest here - we were worse in the last 7 days due to both technical problems and our inability to mine DOGE which was highly profitable (but we were better earlier, during closed beta). Both of these issues are out of equation now. We no longer have any technical problems and DOGE is no longer that profitable (it still sometimes is when a high-reward block is coming, but it's not that frequent). So I guess the next couple of days should be a good base for comparison with an equal playing field (starting today, Feb 14th, as DOGE halved its reward yesterday).

Taking a quick look at today's numbers:

WafflePool: Feb 14, 2014 (partial): 0.0070 BTC/day per MH/s
Middlecoin: Feb 14, 2014 (partial): 0.0104 BTC/day per MH/s (149% of WafflePool)
CleverMining: Feb 14, 2014 (partial): 0.0130 BTC/day per MH/s (186% of WafflePool, 125% of Milddlecoin)

I know the sample is absolutely tiny (13 hours) so there might be a big luck factor here, but I will continue watching the numbers in longer term.

Where these numbers come from: I have a script running that automatically fetches Middlecoin data and compares. I don't have a script for WafflePool so I just took what they publish on the website as “Feb 14, 2014 (partial)”. CleverMining and Middlecoin compares exactly the same period (UTC time, so 13 hours since midnight). I don't know what timezone WafflePool uses but considering their yesterday result is very close to today's, different timezone shouldn't affect the numbers much.

I know that CleverMining has yet to earn its name by showing outstanding profitability and I believe it will happen soon.

I invite everyone who hesitates to join or rejoin. We really could use some more hashpower.

[cokeman0]

@Terk, you have by far the best looking site out of all the auto-exchanging multipools out there, yet somehow these other pools are gaining hashrate far more rapidly than yours, which is unfortunate.

Now instead of it being the need to master some dark arts to get your hashrate up, I feel you should think about reconsidering your strategy and offer full transparency on the coins you're mining and the fees you're charging.

Your initial strategy of keeping things secret but still managing to keep miners based on the look and feel of your site clearly isn't working, people in the crypto community have been scammed in every corner they turn to and need full transparency and trust when it comes to where they point their precious miners, I feel you should respect that and if you want any chance of becoming the biggest multipool start rethinking your strategy.

Just my 2c, I hate seeing other new multipools overtake yours because I really love your site.

TL;DR change your strategy and become fully transparent otherwise all your hard work will be for nothing.

FWIW, just as an alternate opinion on this issue, I don't require any of this kind of transparency at all to point my hashes at clevermining. I also don't need a well-designed website. I have hashed at middlecoin and at wafflepool and their pedestrian websites don't put me off at all. I do not care what coin the pool is mining at any given time. I really only care about maximizing my profit and I don't need @Terk to tell me how he is doing that as long as he is actually doing it. I also don't care what his fees are. If his fees are literally 5 times higher than the fees at middlecoin or wafflepool, but I am still banking more coin to my wallet, then I am happy to pay those fees. In my reality, there is no such thing as "fair" fees. If @Terk figures out how to get me more coins for my hashrate than I can get elsewhere, then he can charge me whatever he wants to put more coins in my wallet than I can get elsewhere.

The only transparency that I need is as follows:

1. The indisputable and irreversible BTC deposits into my wallet should match up with the claimed stats on the website
2. Nobody else who is mining at the pool should be reporting discrepancies in what they are actually being paid

For me, the reason that I am currently hashing at clevermining is that from the care of design of his website and from his responsiveness in this thread, I believe that @Terk is putting in a good-faith effort to create a more profitable pool and based on the quality of his work that I have seen so far, I think it is possible/probable that he may be better at it than others. But I will switch to another pool as soon as I don't believe that anymore.

So far, for me the results are still inconclusive. On the plus side the reported history of profitability looks to me a bit better than middlecoin and a fair bit better than wafflepool, though I don't think there is enough history yet for that to be conclusive. My own experience is that my daily earnings at clevermining have been roughly on par with my daily earnings at middlecoin - within the statistical noise that mining is. But that is also not conclusive to me because I haven't mined long enough at either pool to get past the statistical noise.

I'm not saying that you are not correct for yourself and others requiring the kind of transparency that you are asking for in order for clevermining to gain more hashers. You might be totally right about that. I'm just saying that that is not true for me. Given the ease of pointing one's miner at another pool at a moment's notice, I just utterly fail to see how @Terk could possibly be taking advantage or scamming anyone. As long as the payouts are hitting miner's wallets, I just don't see any space available for ripping anyone off. And obviously the moment the payouts are not happening, or are not competitive, it will be completely obvious to everyone and there will instantly be no more clevermining.

At absolute BEST, @Terk might be able to walk away with one day's take before everyone left. My guess is not even that. And given what he has obviously invested in sweat so far, my judgement is that he has much more financial incentive to make the results as competitive as possible and pull in his percentage for the long haul.

That's my 2c.

You hit the nail.... 

[pallas]

I'm sure that you do, but are you considering unexchanged and immature in your calculations? Middlecoin often has tons of unexchanged and there may be a significant difference in a day; es. 0.1 payout but unexchanged went from 0.05. to 0.08 so total is 0.13.

[Terk]

I'm using this page, and a dude that's has around 270MH.

http://middlecoin.info/flotchart.php?BTC=1BtzFDErNKMMFeCSkho9tK7Cr8eus64x5K

Thank you! I didn't know this page, but I'm glad you posted it as it shows exactly the same numbers as my comparison script. This guy's 2014-02-14 earnings average are 3.0482 BTC/day which divided by his 4h average accepted MH/s gives 3.0482 / 293.089 = 0.01040025 BTC/day per MH/s.

[pallas]

I did the calculation for myself on middlecoin for today, it's 0.012 BTC / MH/s / day, very similar to yesterday.

EDIT: middlecoin may vary a lot for some users, depending on the server you are connected to; a single day is not enough, I guess at least a week should be considered.

[Terk]

I'm sure that you do, but are you considering unexchanged and immature in your calculations? Middlecoin often has tons of unexchanged and there may be a significant difference in a day; es. 0.1 payout but unexchanged went from 0.05. to 0.08 so total is 0.13.

Of course I am considering it. I don't even compare payouts as they are totally irrelevant (due to immature and unexchanged balances which have very various times of converting to payable balance). I compare total expected BTC. I take sum of (Immature + Unexchanged + Balance + Paid), check how it changed within a period that I am interested in and divide it by hashrate reported by the pool within this period. It's the most reliable and most comparable way.

[Terk]

I did the calculation for myself on middlecoin for today, it's 0.012 BTC / MH/s / day, very similar to yesterday.

I encourage everyone to do his own math. There will be differences because of different methodologies as there are many ways in which people might want to try to calculate earnings from pools that have four different balances (immature, unexchanged, balance, payouts), and not all of these methods will be correct. Also, I read that different people have different BTC/day per MH/s at Middlecoin, so everyone's mileage may vary. I have no idea why that's the case with Middlecoin. At CleverMining everyone's BTC/day per MH/s is the same and everyone is paid proportionally to his contributed hashpower.

I have no intention of discussing this further as everyone can and should do their own math and I probably shouldn't involve myself in such comparisons. At the end of the day it's you who should compare and decide. I just wanted to post the numbers that I monitor but that's all. I don't want to involve myself in discussing other pools here. But feel free to compare the numbers by yourself by any means.

[alpher]

I stopped mining on the 10 th, when my unexchanged was ~4 times what ready for payout was.
Now 4 days later it looks like this:



Pity as I realy like your design and all.
Till that's resolved I'm at middlecoin.

[pjv]

Speaking of unexchanged...

Besides getting the pool running smoothly and having the best algorithm for mining the right coin at a given time, I imagine that the mechanics of actually exchanging alts for btc's is going to be the biggest variable in profitability. The exchange rates are so volatile, I imagine that efficiency of getting the mined alts to an exchange and trading them for btc while they are still "hot" has to be a huge issue.

Is there any way to maximize efficiency in this area that you are not already taking advantage of, @Terk? Using multiple exchanges, automating transfers and sales of alts? Or is there no way to automate this stuff and it just has to be done by hand?

[Terk]

I stopped mining on the 10 th, when my unexchanged was ~4 times what ready for payout was.
Now 4 days later it looks like this:



Pity as I realy like your design and all.
Till that's resolved I'm at middlecoin.

There was a major blockchain fork in one of the coins that we were mining. Several mined blocks were orphaned and the stats were automatically updated to reflect this. This is why there are statuses like immature and unexchanged - because value of these coins can change or even amount of these coins can change (in case of a fork). Only payable balance is a solid, final number. All auto-exchange pools work this way.

Because of this fork, Cryptsy halted all deposits for this coin and we were waiting almost five days for our deposits from this time to be credited. We are still missing one deposit worth ~0.67 BTC and I have a ticket opened at Cryptsy with this issue. I expect them to solve it today as there are no current problems with this coin. Most likely these are the coins that you have in your unexchanged balance, if you say that you haven't been mining since Feb 10th.

If you're asking why your last payout was 2 days ago, it's because you don't have enough payable balance for a daily payout, which is minimum 0.01 BTC. There is also a weekly payout for all balances above 0.001 and it runs on Sundays.

[cokeman0]

If you're asking why your last payout was 2 days ago, it's because you don't have enough payable balance for a daily payout, which is minimum 0.01 BTC. There is also a weekly payout for all balances above 0.001 and it runs on Sundays.

Noticed last sunday, that I got a 0.00x payout, but I was mining, there was no need for that payout, as it would be 0.01 later.

Perhaps something you need to look into? (or?)

[dency45]

@Terk, you have by far the best looking site out of all the auto-exchanging multipools out there, yet somehow these other pools are gaining hashrate far more rapidly than yours, which is unfortunate.

Now instead of it being the need to master some dark arts to get your hashrate up, I feel you should think about reconsidering your strategy and offer full transparency on the coins you're mining and the fees you're charging.

Your initial strategy of keeping things secret but still managing to keep miners based on the look and feel of your site clearly isn't working, people in the crypto community have been scammed in every corner they turn to and need full transparency and trust when it comes to where they point their precious miners, I feel you should respect that and if you want any chance of becoming the biggest multipool start rethinking your strategy.

Just my 2c, I hate seeing other new multipools overtake yours because I really love your site.

TL;DR change your strategy and become fully transparent otherwise all your hard work will be for nothing.

FWIW, just as an alternate opinion on this issue, I don't require any of this kind of transparency at all to point my hashes at clevermining. I also don't need a well-designed website. I have hashed at middlecoin and at wafflepool and their pedestrian websites don't put me off at all. I do not care what coin the pool is mining at any given time. I really only care about maximizing my profit and I don't need @Terk to tell me how he is doing that as long as he is actually doing it. I also don't care what his fees are. If his fees are literally 5 times higher than the fees at middlecoin or wafflepool, but I am still banking more coin to my wallet, then I am happy to pay those fees. In my reality, there is no such thing as "fair" fees. If @Terk figures out how to get me more coins for my hashrate than I can get elsewhere, then he can charge me whatever he wants to put more coins in my wallet than I can get elsewhere.

The only transparency that I need is as follows:

1. The indisputable and irreversible BTC deposits into my wallet should match up with the claimed stats on the website
2. Nobody else who is mining at the pool should be reporting discrepancies in what they are actually being paid

For me, the reason that I am currently hashing at clevermining is that from the care of design of his website and from his responsiveness in this thread, I believe that @Terk is putting in a good-faith effort to create a more profitable pool and based on the quality of his work that I have seen so far, I think it is possible/probable that he may be better at it than others. But I will switch to another pool as soon as I don't believe that anymore.

So far, for me the results are still inconclusive. On the plus side the reported history of profitability looks to me a bit better than middlecoin and a fair bit better than wafflepool, though I don't think there is enough history yet for that to be conclusive. My own experience is that my daily earnings at clevermining have been roughly on par with my daily earnings at middlecoin - within the statistical noise that mining is. But that is also not conclusive to me because I haven't mined long enough at either pool to get past the statistical noise.

I'm not saying that you are not correct for yourself and others requiring the kind of transparency that you are asking for in order for clevermining to gain more hashers. You might be totally right about that. I'm just saying that that is not true for me. Given the ease of pointing one's miner at another pool at a moment's notice, I just utterly fail to see how @Terk could possibly be taking advantage or scamming anyone. As long as the payouts are hitting miner's wallets, I just don't see any space available for ripping anyone off. And obviously the moment the payouts are not happening, or are not competitive, it will be completely obvious to everyone and there will instantly be no more clevermining.

At absolute BEST, @Terk might be able to walk away with one day's take before everyone left. My guess is not even that. And given what he has obviously invested in sweat so far, my judgement is that he has much more financial incentive to make the results as competitive as possible and pull in his percentage for the long haul.

That's my 2c.

+1

[Terk]

Speaking of unexchanged...

Besides getting the pool running smoothly and having the best algorithm for mining the right coin at a given time, I imagine that the mechanics of actually exchanging alts for btc's is going to be the biggest variable in profitability. The exchange rates are so volatile, I imagine that efficiency of getting the mined alts to an exchange and trading them for btc while they are still "hot" has to be a huge issue.

Is there any way to maximize efficiency in this area that you are not already taking advantage of, @Terk? Using multiple exchanges, automating transfers and sales of alts? Or is there no way to automate this stuff and it just has to be done by hand?

Some things always have to be done by hand but I am automating anything that is possible to automate. I have one more thing that is semi-automated and I want it to be fully automated and I'm going to work on it tonight. There is no way I could run this pool without automating as much as possible.

[Terk]

If you're asking why your last payout was 2 days ago, it's because you don't have enough payable balance for a daily payout, which is minimum 0.01 BTC. There is also a weekly payout for all balances above 0.001 and it runs on Sundays.

Noticed last sunday, that I got a 0.00x payout, but I was mining, there was no need for that payout, as it would be 0.01 later.

Perhaps something you need to look into? (or?)

Oh, I am not going to try to predict wether particular user will continue mining for long enough to have 0.01 BTC balance tomorrow or not. And then read complaints of users who expected to be paid 0.004 BTC but were not.

The 0.001+ BTC payout is scheduled 2 minutes after 0.01+ BTC payout, so anyone who had at least 0.01 BTC is already paid and the 0.001+ BTC payout includes only users who didn't earn 0.01 BTC during the entire week (since previous 0.001+ BTC payout). I don't think there's need to optimize it further.

[pallas]

Selling asap is not always the best choice, so manual trading should be kept as an option.
For example, a coin may be going up in price but profitability may be going down instead, because of difficulty or block reward.
Personally, I think manual trades are what makes middlecoin what it is.
Sorry if I often name MC but it's the de-facto benchmark for btc multipools and I'd really like to have an option to them, this be clevermining would be fine :-)

[byt411]

Selling asap is not always the best choice, so manual trading should be kept as an option.
For example, a coin may be going up in price but profitability may be going down instead, because of difficulty or block reward.
Personally, I think manual trades are what makes middlecoin what it is.
Sorry if I often name MC but it's the de-facto benchmark for btc multipools and I'd really like to have an option to them, this be clevermining would be fine :-)

While that may be true, there is also the possibility that the coin drops in value. Auto trading almost promises the current value, so the system can switch to that coin. Keeping the coins delays payouts, and has a probability of Terk having to pay using his own money.

[pjv]

Selling asap is not always the best choice, so manual trading should be kept as an option.
For example, a coin may be going up in price but profitability may be going down instead, because of difficulty or block reward.
Personally, I think manual trades are what makes middlecoin what it is.
Sorry if I often name MC but it's the de-facto benchmark for btc multipools and I'd really like to have an option to them, this be clevermining would be fine :-)

While that may be true, there is also the possibility that the coin drops in value. Auto trading almost promises the current value, so the system can switch to that coin. Keeping the coins delays payouts, and has a probability of Terk having to pay using his own money.

My guess is that in the long run, best profitability would come from selling the currently most profitable alt (what you are mining at the time) for btc as close to as soon as you mine it as possible (taking into account appropriate batching to minimize fees) - UNLESS there is a long enough, unavoidable delay in being able to transfer and execute those sales. "Long enough" in this case being relative to the exchange rate volatility. In that case, if the delay is unavoidably long, then using some judgement (say in the case of a sudden, rapid and unexplained drop in value of alts you just mined and haven't yet exchanged) would probably yield better results than a slow, automatic system.