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Question: Is the OP correct?
yes - 77 (38.5%)
no - 100 (50%)
yes and no (my logic is posted in the thread) - 23 (11.5%)
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Author Topic: "Failure to Understand Bitcoin Could Cost Investors Billions" (Bitcoin's flaws)  (Read 42100 times)
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AnonyMint
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March 06, 2014, 04:26:53 AM
 #241

Vlad this is for you bro.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=500994.msg5539769#msg5539769

PS: AnonyMint is right, once QCs appear Bitcoin will be f***ed. At least noone has offered a good solution to avoid this.

I think the community has grown tired of hearing me say I know solutions but haven't released them yet. I will give a small tidbit gift (giving away my secrets before I can implement them) to the community now, so they will realize I am not all talk and no action.

I added the following partial "solution" to Wikipedia yesterday:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_signature#Short_keys_and_signature

Now I go quiet if I can.

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March 06, 2014, 04:46:51 AM
 #242

I wish I understood this software stuff better to fully appreciate it. 

Thanks.

Good luck with your project, if you ever decide to make it a reality.


The Original Bitcoin Clone:  www.IXcoin.net
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March 06, 2014, 05:12:58 AM
 #243

Vlad, I wrote an explanation for you and others.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=500994.msg5540305#msg5540305

For the laymen, most public key cryptography (e.g. RSA and Bitcoin's ECDSA and Zerocoin) is based on number theoretic assumptions such as the difficulty in factoring discrete logarithms which makes them impossible to crack (at sufficient bit lengths) with current computers. However, quantum computing would (in theory) enable Shor's algorithm which reduces these factoring problems from exponential to polynomial time. Thus what would have required a zillion years to crack can be cracked in reasonable time to make it practical.

However, cryptographic hash functions do not rely on number theoretic assumptions. Instead they rely on the assumption of asymptotically perfect random distribution of the input to the output, which can be somewhat verified like this. Thus they can't be cracked with Shor's algorithm and only Grover's algorithm can be applied with a quantum computer. Thus they remain exponential time, and only the bit lengths (exponents) get effectively halved.

Lamport signatures use only cryptographic hashes. One of the problem with employing them in a blockchain has been they take up much space (either for the public key or the signature or both), but I just published a discovery in my prior post which enables making them smaller in exchange for more computation.

This discovery makes Lamport signatures more practical for blockchains than they were before, but still they are not as small as number theoretic public key cryptography.

Unfortunately I don't think this will work for Bitcoin, at least not until they implement pruning of the UXTO, but it can work in an altcoin.

I currently see no way to make Zerocoin resistant to Shor's algorithm, but I am still researching this. But Zerocoin is mostly useless any way because of pattern analysis on coin amounts.

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March 06, 2014, 05:44:40 AM
 #244

Most humans think that political discussion will make any difference in the outcome.

In the burgeoning Knowledge age, the outcomes will be increasingly decided by technology and the macro-economics.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=503258.msg5540510#msg5540510

1.  Create a bitcointalk account.  
2.  Make lots of posts to become a "Sr. Member" so you have a pretense of credibility.
3.  Create long posts enumerating the possible ways Bitcoin is flawed.
4.  Claim bitcoin will fail.  Posture as being "pro cryptocurrency", yet offer no real solutions.
5.  Paint "doomsday" scenarios to spread fear.
6.  Be sure to mention the NSA ,the NWO, the FBI, and the elite will either stop Bitcoin or secretly created Bitcoin.
7.  Debate endlessly with people.  Make sure your posts get more than 100 replies so they become "very hot topics".
8.  When you can't refute a point, either ignore it or use an ad hominem attack.
9.  Make yourself look really smart by referencing advanced topics and/or claiming 'credentials'.
10. Link back to your own posts to create more views and controversy.

It is amusing that he takes my "Bitard" comments as inability to refute. I've refuted every challenge presented to me without exception. (or in the case of PoS, I made strong arguments in a cordial discussion upthread) That is why I feel entitled to insult those who are incapable of or obstinately unwilling to comprehend what they supposedly read, especially when they push that sort of political insanity above.

As a technical dolt (fact not ad hominem), he can't discern a genuine expert from a pretender.

In short, let them go ahead. I should go quiet. Action will speak loudest now.

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March 06, 2014, 08:08:18 AM
 #245

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=503473.msg5542038#msg5542038

http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/05/congressman-calls-to-ban-u-s-dollar-in-response-to-bitcoin-ban/ Grin


Lmao good on him. Might email him a thanks for that even if I'm not from the US.

He better be careful what he proposes, or maybe he is a "wolf in sheepskin" pretending to be your friend just like Satoshi.

The governments are slowly phasing out cash. EuropeSwitzerland eliminated the 1000 EU bill and ATM daily limits continue declining in all countries.

Government (and banksters) would love for a pseudonymous digitally tracked public ledger to replace the very anonymous physical cash.



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=451376.msg5542173#msg5542173

...why exactly are people quite blatantly trying to attack the idea of Bitcoin so much?

...It definitely doesn't make sense because surely if a system is flawed and going to break anyway the sensible thing to do would be to stay back and let it implode on it's own rather than rush it's demise.

Because we (I) see that as wonderful as the ideal is, Bitcoin's flaws could mean it can be much worse than cash and put all of us (no choice for anyone any more) into a very severe slavery system.

we have open source and altcoins so we can find out what works best

Agreed.

If Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are really that bad though, why do opponents of it not only attack it on their own private networks and channels but feel the need to literally come over here and lecture us about what a piss poor thing Bitcoin is?

This community is the Bitcoin ecosystem which includes all altcoins, not just Bitcoin's protocol. We have a right to be here too.

The discourse adds more veracity to the truth.

Since our ideal is all about truth, then what are you afraid of?

the more angry and incoherent they get.

Who is angry? Seems like it is the Bitards who don't like our arguments and logic.



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=451376.msg5543183#msg5543183

Well an a Bitcoin user and a firm supporter of this community, we all understand the risks involved that we can potentially lose money and many of us are willing to take that risk.

Could you re-read my post upthread. I am not concerned about your personal decisions.

The american media has the opportunity in essence to influence all matters concerning financial investments and can even create a environment that creates scared users.

There you naive Bitards (Bitnaives doesn't sound as good) go getting fooled by the Hegelian dialectic. You know when you enter the car dealer (at least in USA), one saleman pretends to be your friend and is the "wolf in sheepskin" and the other pretends to be the bad guy who wants to rip you off. They create a conflict to make you think the good guy is fighting for you against the bad guy, but in reality they're both ripping you off. After you've signed the loan documents, you later realize you've like fucking overpaid by $3000 after all the shit is included that you naively agreed to.

Stop this USA vs Europe crap. This Democrats vs. Republicans crap. The Pirate Party vs Social Democrats, etc.. These are heads of the same monster.

Yes bitcoin can you be used in negative ways but it can be used in more positive ways.

There is a theory that it could also be used to create a world-wide slavery system where all cash is gone.

Creating panic causes people to back out and say "this is too much for me" and just over all over it.

And what is wrong with that? You need groupthink?

Anything that needs cheerleaders is always the property of the government. Don't forget that fact.

Also I see the BTC price is going up not down.

And they will always come back. The lure of Bitcoin is too irresistible.

Bitcoin is a threat to all centralized fiat currency issued by the government and the best part is their is no one person pulling the strings.

This is ignorant of the facts.

Mining is already controlled by a few pools. Exchanges are controlled by a few players. Most of the coins are controlled by a few big players beholden to the government. Etc.

Government (and banksters) would love for a pseudonymous digitally tracked public ledger to replace the very anonymous physical cash.



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=498002.msg5543751#msg5543751

OK, that is what I thought.

I wonder how much of the volume reported at exchanges is real, and how much is just them trading with themselves to make themselves look more respectable? With all the shit that went down from MtGox, can we really trust the numbers they self-reported?

Indeed not. "We" now know Gox mostly traded with itself, and MP sez the price signal is pretty much RIP these days.

So the transactions to price growth ratio is even worse than we thought or was this all internal trades not on blockchain? The chart is in my archives at the Ponzi thread. Don't feel like digging it up.



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=502612.msg5545053#msg5545053

Sorry to say I was expecting the videos to be much funnier. I didn't bust a gut.

Probably because it isn't about trolls posting here and there.. Wink

+1

There is Zoloft medication for your irrational personalizing your anxiety and lashing out at someone who is rational. I am just expressing a preference for something funny enough to make me fall on the floor laughing, e.g. Homer Simpson, Richard Pryor, Rodney Dangerfield, Jim Carey, SNL, Beavis and Butthead, or my best friend snorting out peanut butter through his nose, etc.

Even the old Wendy's commercials were funnier than that bland snot in the OP videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CaMUfxVJVQ

Or some Dancing Baby or dancing dog is more entertaining than seeing his yuppie twat face:

http://bluefishway.com/2012/08/26/the-dancing-dog-video/

Even guilty dog with cute little girl is more entertaining:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u5I33rEhCQ

I am reasonably obsessed with fixing Bitcoin, but you guys are beyond pale obsessed if you think those OP videos were above a 2 on the 1 to 10 comedy metric.

Sorry no offense intended to the lady who posted them, nor her bf. They could have exaggerated the ideas much more to a much greater effect. Great comedy is about exaggeration.

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March 06, 2014, 10:30:33 AM
 #246

Seems a good article, following

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March 06, 2014, 02:57:40 PM
 #247


It is amusing that he takes my "Bitard" comments as inability to refute. I've refuted every challenge presented to me without exception.

You are a self-deluded meglomaniac.

Refute that.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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March 07, 2014, 04:51:49 AM
 #248

The "Lifetime Foundation" members continue to try to spread propaganda and lies.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=500994.msg5562217#msg5562217

No one has provided any argument against my upthread point about Zerocoin (if it were added to Bitcoin or an altcoin):

  • If we adopt something like Zerocoin to add more anonymity to the tracing of trail of ownership of a coin, these signatures can't be retroactively hardened later, thus all that history of anonymity is suddenly lost once the adversary gains a quantum computer.



If you aren't interested in looking up any of the many, many threads on QC, but still want to know about it, I'll give you the very short version.  QC is hard to scale up.  At the moment, it looks like QC devices will not be following Moore's law because the difficulty of retaining coherence appears to scale close to linearly with the number of gates, rather than inversely with the feature size like in classical devices.  Even in the worst case, we should have years of warning before devices capable of breaking ECDSA are created, with decades much more likely.*

And he still hasn't refuted what I asserted upthread as re-quoted as follows.

  • How do we know when the adversary has a quantum computer, given the capability of the NSA to issue national security letter gag orders? They had differential analysis to break cryptography in the 1970s and 80s and the public was unaware.

He is speculating on what science knows now and what it can do in the future (and I don't even agree with his speculation but any way speculation is speculation, not fact). Due to National Security gag orders we can't even be sure we know what the current science is. The USA's covert agencies including the NSA have a $52 billion ANNUAL budget. And this doesn't include the black budget which Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld admitted the day before 9/11 on national TV was $3 trillion unaccounted for in the defense budget (over the years), then the relevant records were conveniently destroyed when the Pentagon was hit by an "airplane" the next day. No backup copies of the records.  Huh

And his is ignoring the fact of history of what happened in the 1970s and 1980s (see what I wrote before as quoted above) which is an example that we can't always know.

Don't forget that Edward Snowden leaked (Washington Post) that the NSA is actively attempting to build a quantum computer.

Why risk it? Why not switch to Lamport signatures so no more risk at all.

The reason is because Bitcoin's blockchain is design in a way that switching to Lamport probably won't scale well. But an altcoin can fix this. Bitcoin probably can't, although maybe if they get off their lazy arse and finish the UXTO pruning, they might be able to do it.

Here is an excellent article on this quantum computing topic and also explains how Bitcoin's three encryption methods are combined, so it is relevant to this thread's title as well:

http://www.bitcoinnotbombs.com/bitcoin-vs-the-nsas-quantum-computer/

There are two things I dispute from the article.

Quote
Let’s consider the type attack most people think of when hear of quantum computers―a brute force attack.

Nonsense. Shor's algorithm is not a brute force attack. The author inserted this disinformation into his otherwise good article, because most users don't understand that Shor's algorithm doesn't require a brute force capability.

Quote
The good news is that ECDSA should be relatively easy to swap out if/when it becomes compromised.

I already refuted that upthread:





And Shor's does not magically provide instant answers to questions posed, it allows a reduction in the search space, to the square root.  sqrt(xy) = xy/2, so it will reduce the strength of our keys from 2128 to 264**.  Note that 264 is still a huge number, and it is not at all a given that a real world system can accomplish it in 10 minutes.***

http://crypto.stackexchange.com/a/2642

Quote
A security level of about 64 bits can be broken by a determined attacker, and a level of 32 bits can be trivially broken on a single home computer.

Also I think you are wrong. Grover's algorithm is what halves the effective bit length, i.e. square root of the solution space. As I explained upthread, Grover's algorithm applies (in theory) to cryptographic hashes, but for ECDSA and RSA the much more powerful Shor's algorithm applies. Shor's algorithm reduces to polynomial time as I explained upthread. If I am not mistaken, you've just shown yourself to be incompetent and not worth listening to.

http://security.stackexchange.com/a/37638
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_size#Effect_of_quantum_computing_attacks_on_key_strength
http://crypto.stackexchange.com/a/9940



Also note I wrote upthread that in addition to the quantum computing threat, we can't be sure that the curve chosen for ECDSA isn't backdoored or that some mathematical algorithm couldn't be discovered secretly by the NSA, as they did with differential cryptographic analysis in the 1970s and 1980s and they could crack everyone, but no one knew.

Cryptographic hashes are much less likely than mathematical group algorithms (e.g. RSA and ECDSA) to fall to mathematical cryptographic analysis if they are designed correctly to break algebraic linearity over all mathematical groups.

So, hardly the end of the world.  And that isn't even considering non-technical solutions, like a mining service that cultivates a reputation for safely embedding transactions into the blockchain in exchange for fees****.

Here we go again depending on miners which are now becoming very centralized.  Roll Eyes

*  It is not clear whether or not it is possible to apply Grover's algorithm to hashing in reality.  Grover's works on quantum circuits, and we can't even design a classical circuit for single SHA-256, much less double, and vastly much less for a quantum version.  Note that I said circuit.  The distinction is important, it isn't that I'm unaware of FPGAs and ASICS.

If anything that is argument for using cryptographic hashes such as Lamport for public key cryptography. You are reinforcing my point.

** ECDSA has a work factor of 1/2, so 256 bit ECDSA is as strong as an ideal 128 bit crypto system.

*** Incidentally, 264 falling down to the hour-or-two range is likely to trigger a crypto upgrade, in my opinion.  Assuming, of course, that we haven't done so already for aesthetic reasons.

You are talking about conventional computers. My point above is we might not know the progress of quantum computers or mathematical attacks not released to the public.


**** The service would solicit transactions spending from old keys into new keys and would only accept transactions that met their fee structure.  They would then mine internally, without revealing the pubkey to the rest of the network.  Presumably for large enough transactions, they could even be convinced to mine at a loss by discarding blocks until they had two that they could publish at once.  I leave the rest of the details as an exercise for the reader.

Here we go again depending on miners which are now becoming very centralized.  Roll Eyes

I thought we were supposed to have a decentralized paradigm in play yet the Bitwards always fall back to centralization when ever they lose the technical argument...

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March 07, 2014, 06:59:59 AM
 #249

What would Satoshi say when he comes back into public view...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=504771.msg5563694#msg5563694

"It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those formative years. But, the world is more sophisticated and has accepted the all seeing ledger. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries."

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March 07, 2014, 01:41:07 PM
 #250

If another alt-coin pops up that it better than Bitcoin, it will need to kill Light-coin first and i've not even seen 1 alt-coin thats doing that in this time.
In time scale; Bitcoins infrasturcture+the amounth of the ppl in the world that is even aware of Bitcoin will be to big to catch up. In other words; Bitcoin wil be in the top 3 most used crypto money in the comming 10+ years.

Litecoin as a early warning system for the eventual bitcoin-killer is worth considering. A very interesting thought.  I wonder if it has merit.

Yhe, but the price between Lightcoin and Bitcoin is huge so the maker of the ''Bitcoin killer'' needs to come up with very innovative tools ore reinvent the wheel of crypto again that will make his coin atleast $100 and up worthly. When Bitcoin rises; Lightcoin will follow in price. Its really interesting and i will keep an close eye to crypto.
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March 07, 2014, 01:57:52 PM
 #251

Do indeed keep your eyes on altcoins. There is a lot of money to be made there.

Based on the coins I know that are in developments (e.g. Ethereum, Zerocoin, ...) and the lag time for research & development since the huge price rise in Bitcoin since last summer, I estimate 30 - 50% odds on the serious competitor to Bitcoin arriving before June. Initially it might not be apparent that such a coin can challenge Bitcoin, but it will become clear rapidly (in weeks or few months after coin launch).

If another alt-coin pops up that it better than Bitcoin, it will need to kill Light-coin first and i've not even seen 1 alt-coin thats doing that in this time.
In time scale; Bitcoins infrasturcture+the amounth of the ppl in the world that is even aware of Bitcoin will be to big to catch up. In other words; Bitcoin wil be in the top 3 most used crypto money in the comming 10+ years.

Litecoin as a early warning system for the eventual bitcoin-killer is worth considering. A very interesting thought.  I wonder if it has merit.

Yhe, but the price between Lightcoin and Bitcoin is huge so the maker of the ''Bitcoin killer'' needs to come up with very innovative tools ore reinvent the wheel of crypto again that will make his coin atleast $100 and up worthly. When Bitcoin rises; Lightcoin will follow in price. Its really interesting and i will keep an close eye to crypto.

Don't forget to multiply Litecoin's price by 4 to compare with Bitcoin, since Litecoin has 4X as many coins planned to issue than Bitcoin.

In other words, you really want to compare coin market caps.

http://coinmarketcap.com/

http://bitbet.us/bet/621/any-altcoin-will-surpass-litecoin-in-market-capitalization/

http://www.coindesk.com/top-altcoins-2013/

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/beyond-bitcoin-a-guide-to-the-most-promising-cryptocurrencies

Note compare the hype and launch momentum of MaxCoin to the actual result in the market cap comparison:

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/the-next-altcoin-to-hit-20-million-cm323873

http://crypt.la/2014/02/16/10-signs-that-maxcoin-was-the-largest-altcoin-launch-in-history/

Appears that features are more important than hype and interest at launch.

Bitshares is supposed to be like a decenrralized bank via BitUSD or Bitxxx is this similar to your understanding of a decentralized exchange?

No because it attempts to do market clearing of bids and asks at the miner. And it has no mechanism to move fiat in the system and depends on their unproven faith that BitUSD will track the value of fiat (which I think I refuted in the thread of discussion on that, yet they are welcome to try it and see what happens).

Oh shit did I do that crash on March 1 when I wrote the above (ProtoShares is the premine for Bitshares):

http://coinmarketcap.com/pts_30.html

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March 07, 2014, 03:29:53 PM
 #252

At least 30% of the people on this forum have IQs that are insufficient for them to be rational (fits the Bell Curve as expected that 30% or so would be below 90 IQ):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=505355.0

So keep that in mind on all polls such as for example the one on this thread. We can probably subtract up to 30% from the 50% above and arrive at a super majority of the rational people agree with the OP.

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March 07, 2014, 03:42:13 PM
 #253

Do indeed keep your eyes on altcoins. There is a lot of money to be made there.

Based on the coins I know that are in developments (e.g. Ethereum, Zerocoin, ...) and the lag time for research & development since the huge price rise in Bitcoin since last summer, I estimate 30 - 50% odds on the serious competitor to Bitcoin arriving before June. Initially it might not be apparent that such a coin can challenge Bitcoin, but it will become clear rapidly (in weeks or few months after coin launch).

If another alt-coin pops up that it better than Bitcoin, it will need to kill Light-coin first and i've not even seen 1 alt-coin thats doing that in this time.
In time scale; Bitcoins infrasturcture+the amounth of the ppl in the world that is even aware of Bitcoin will be to big to catch up. In other words; Bitcoin wil be in the top 3 most used crypto money in the comming 10+ years.

Litecoin as a early warning system for the eventual bitcoin-killer is worth considering. A very interesting thought.  I wonder if it has merit.

Yhe, but the price between Lightcoin and Bitcoin is huge so the maker of the ''Bitcoin killer'' needs to come up with very innovative tools ore reinvent the wheel of crypto again that will make his coin atleast $100 and up worthly. When Bitcoin rises; Lightcoin will follow in price. Its really interesting and i will keep an close eye to crypto.

Don't forget to multiply Litecoin's price by 4 to compare with Bitcoin, since Litecoin has 4X as many coins planned to use than Bitcoin.

In other words, you really want to compare coin market caps.

http://coinmarketcap.com/

http://bitbet.us/bet/621/any-altcoin-will-surpass-litecoin-in-market-capitalization/

http://www.coindesk.com/top-altcoins-2013/

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/beyond-bitcoin-a-guide-to-the-most-promising-cryptocurrencies

Note compare the hype and launch momentum of MaxCoin to the actual result in the market cap comparison:

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/the-next-altcoin-to-hit-20-million-cm323873

http://crypt.la/2014/02/16/10-signs-that-maxcoin-was-the-largest-altcoin-launch-in-history/

Appears that features are more important than hype and interest at launch.

Bitshares is supposed to be like a decenrralized bank via BitUSD or Bitxxx is this similar to your understanding of a decentralized exchange?

No because it attempts to do market clearing of bids and asks at the miner. And it has no mechanism to move fiat in the system and depends on their unproven faith that BitUSD will track the value of fiat (which I think I refuted in the thread of discussion on that, yet they are welcome to try it and see what happens).

Oh shit did I do that crash on March 1 when I wrote the above (ProtoShares is the premine for Bitshares):

http://coinmarketcap.com/pts_30.html

Far from it.. ppl were buying pts to get into bts snapshot to recieve free coins.. after snapshot they sold... it will be back up when the next dac is released that is interesting.

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March 07, 2014, 03:59:38 PM
 #254

Do indeed keep your eyes on altcoins. There is a lot of money to be made there.


Oh shit did I do that crash on March 1 when I wrote the above (ProtoShares is the premine for Bitshares):

http://coinmarketcap.com/pts_30.html

Of course you didn't.

That is the market's perceived value of Bitshares-x exiting the Bitshares-PTS price.
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March 08, 2014, 04:33:47 AM
 #255

Detailed discussion of the problems with Zerocoin:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470987.msg5580855#msg5580855

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March 08, 2014, 04:47:15 AM
 #256

Big wrench in altcoin.. coinpayments closing down because FinCEn classifies then as a money transmitter..

They would need to apply anti money laundering procedures to verify accounts and record keeping... I believe a proper company can step in here.. heck even bucket shop forex brokers and market makers comply why cant a crypto business do the same??? looks like coinpayments doesnt want to bother.

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March 08, 2014, 05:01:29 AM
 #257

Detailed discussion of the problems with Zerocoin:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470987.msg5580855#msg5580855


The biggest problem with any "ZeroCoin" is that Bitcoin was never truly designed or meant to be anonymous nor decentralized and thus any attempt to create a clone for that purpose will be snuffed out by the banks and governments of the world.  

They have zero chance of widespread success but I suppose it makes for a nice hobby.


The Original Bitcoin Clone:  www.IXcoin.net
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March 08, 2014, 05:12:14 AM
 #258

Big wrench in altcoin.. coinpayments closing down because FinCEn classifies then as a money transmitter..

They would need to apply anti money laundering procedures to verify accounts and record keeping... I believe a proper company can step in here.. heck even bucket shop forex brokers and market makers comply why cant a crypto business do the same??? looks like coinpayments doesnt want to bother.

Crypto-currencies can be exchanged decentralized. So we can just put a decentralized exchange in front of Bitpay or any merchant accepting BTC.

The decentralized exchanges are not yet well developed. And as I said upthread, users may not use them if there is no compelling reason (because they are perceived to be less convenient, greater bid/ask spread+variance), but they can help users remain anonymous.

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AnonyMint
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March 08, 2014, 05:14:07 AM
 #259

Detailed discussion of the problems with Zerocoin:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470987.msg5580855#msg5580855


The biggest problem with any "ZeroCoin" is that Bitcoin was never truly designed or meant to be anonymous nor decentralized and thus any attempt to create a clone for that purpose will be snuffed out by the banks and governments of the world.  

They have zero chance of widespread success but I suppose it makes for a nice hobby.

How can they snuff out something when they can't identify any of those who own the coin?

Paying for physical merchandise is an issue. But I will concede that market to Bitcoin and go after all the virtual merchandise, which will eventually be a larger market (as 3D printing in the home becomes prevalent).

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March 08, 2014, 06:06:03 AM
 #260

Detailed discussion of the problems with Zerocoin:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470987.msg5580855#msg5580855


The biggest problem with any "ZeroCoin" is that Bitcoin was never truly designed or meant to be anonymous nor decentralized and thus any attempt to create a clone for that purpose will be snuffed out by the banks and governments of the world.  

They have zero chance of widespread success but I suppose it makes for a nice hobby.

How can they snuff out something when they can't identify any of those who own the coin?

Paying for physical merchandise is an issue. But I will concede that market to Bitcoin and go after all the virtual merchandise, which will eventually be a larger market (as 3D printing in the home becomes prevalent).

The way they make counterfeit dollars illegal and few use them even though many could print their own dollars and do it well.

Most people would not risk prison given it's easy to track IP addresses and even physical hardware or software wallets.

And ZERO businesses would accept an illegal currency.

So then you'd be relegated to pure underground use, for things like drugs as only people willing to break the law would risk prison for a currency.

And that's being snuffed out, they would use national security to ban any truly anonymous currency saying a terrorist could easily buy bombs and maneuver through society using such anonymity and drug dralers as well.

Of course that's a lie, terrorists can be anonymous now with cash even more easily and so can drug dealers but who can fight the machine when they only need one executive order to kill anything and now, anyone.


The Original Bitcoin Clone:  www.IXcoin.net
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