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Question: Is the OP correct?
yes - 77 (38.5%)
no - 100 (50%)
yes and no (my logic is posted in the thread) - 23 (11.5%)
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Author Topic: "Failure to Understand Bitcoin Could Cost Investors Billions" (Bitcoin's flaws)  (Read 42093 times)
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February 28, 2014, 11:36:34 PM
 #201

Are you in the process of making this coin a reality? If so, any expected timeline?

I think Monero (XMR) is very interesting.
https://moneroeconomy.com/faq/why-monero-matters
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February 28, 2014, 11:58:21 PM
 #202

"No".

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March 01, 2014, 05:21:47 AM
 #203

Bitshares is supposed to be like a decenrralized bank via BitUSD or Bitxxx is this similar to your understanding of a decentralized exchange?

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
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March 01, 2014, 05:39:57 AM
 #204




I not understand your link.  So when do you plan work on your coin?


Here's an idea.  Lots of new coins pop up everyday and most are burried in the process so it's getting harder to launch a new coin and have it noticed.  This is why I launched Nuggets when I didn't even know what a blockchain was.

So maybe it's a better idea for you to take over an existing coin, preferably and older coin with an already time tested protocol and an already secure network and then update the code to make it just like you want.

This would give you some advantages over launching a new coin.  I suggest i0Coin, it's an abandoned coin,  it it's been around almost 3 years, has a strong network and has been updated to work well via merge mining.

You can easily change the 21 million hardcap to reflect the slight inflation of gold and get rod of fees and you'd pretty much have your coin.

Also, I'd change the name, i0Coin has never sounded like a good name.

And it's already listed on good exchanges like Vircurex and Cryptsy I believe.

Good luck!


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March 01, 2014, 09:09:54 AM
 #205

Lots of new coins pop up everyday and most are burried in the process so it's getting harder to launch a new coin and have it noticed.

Perfect.

Bitshares is supposed to be like a decenrralized bank via BitUSD or Bitxxx is this similar to your understanding of a decentralized exchange?

No because it attempts to do market clearing of bids and asks at the miner. And it has no mechanism to move fiat in the system and depends on their unproven faith that BitUSD will track the value of fiat (which I think I refuted in the thread of discussion on that, yet they are welcome to try it and see what happens).

I am thinking something like a P2P decentralized localbitcoins, with decentralized 3rd parties (with multi-signature) chosen for escrow when escrow is needed. Third parties would compete to gain reputation, but need not be their true identity. If you are not doing meetups where no third party is needed for escrow (maybe only a timeout lockup on the coins), then identity of the holder of the bank account isn't anonymous any way. And the depositor of the fiat need not provide identity, only bank receipt that deposit was made.  Apparently others are working on a similar concept for Bitcoin, but not built-in by default in the official wallet and mining client (note those are the same in a cpu-only coin).

Add:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=488148.msg5378912#msg5378912

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=471355.0

With cpu-only mining, then you buy PCs with fiat to buy (by mining) coins, you buy more PCs with coin and sell the PCs to get fiat.

That is why a cpu-only coin is so damn important. Most people will then enter by mining, and spending will be preferred over selling!

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March 01, 2014, 07:39:21 PM
 #206

Lots of new coins pop up everyday and most are burried in the process so it's getting harder to launch a new coin and have it noticed.

Perfect.

Bitshares is supposed to be like a decenrralized bank via BitUSD or Bitxxx is this similar to your understanding of a decentralized exchange?

No because it attempts to do market clearing of bids and asks at the miner. And it has no mechanism to move fiat in the system and depends on their unproven faith that BitUSD will track the value of fiat (which I think I refuted in the thread of discussion on that, yet they are welcome to try it and see what happens).

I am thinking something like a P2P decentralized localbitcoins, with decentralized 3rd parties (with multi-signature) chosen for escrow when escrow is needed. Third parties would compete to gain reputation, but need not be their true identity. If you are not doing meetups where no third party is needed for escrow (maybe only a timeout lockup on the coins), then identity of the holder of the bank account isn't anonymous any way. And the depositor of the fiat need not provide identity, only bank receipt that deposit was made.  Apparently others are working on a similar concept for Bitcoin, but not built-in by default in the official wallet and mining client (note those are the same in a cpu-only coin).

I know the MyCelium bitcoin wallet has a localbitcoins thing builtin where it would creates a sort of marketplace for people local to you, and you would meet up with them and only transfer coins after receiving fiat... its not far off from using multi-sig and bank receipts but it does handle trader feedback for reputation and signature signing in future release...  what you are saying should  not be that far off from current implementation.

See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293472.msg5104823#msg5104823

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March 01, 2014, 11:08:04 PM
 #207

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=493115.msg5454129#msg5454129

How would you propose they return coins to the victim of a theft if his coins are now distributed as taint across 24,000 other coins?  Say Sally has 1 BTC that has 0.002% taint of a coin that was stolen from Sam.  Would they correlate Sally's human identity with her 1 BTC wallet, find her somehow, and then ask for 0.002% x 1 BTC = 2000 Satoshi's back?  And then they would find the other 23,999 coins and do the same?  And what if Sally was also the victim of a theft at some prior point in time, but the Coin Rescuers hadn't found her coins yet.  She might be upset that you're taking some of her coins, when she was a victim herself.  Do you think you could add an appeal process so that victims waiting for their settlements could defer having a portion of their coins removed?

The authorities could either start as early in the chain as possible where the stolen coin is not very distributed, especially since many Bitcoin investors hold long-term. And these big fish (if Bitcoin goes to $1 million, then BTC100 is worth $100 million) would be the most lucrative to attack as well.

And at some point in the game, the G20 could declare a class action against Bitcoin in the collective public interest. They can mandate a tax on all conversions of Bitcoin to fiat to fund a new global insurance agency, which will be responsible for paying the victims.

Since this would be very popular given so many millions of people will have been stolen from (and told by the callous community of idealists that this was their learning experience and "c'est la vie" you have no recourse), this is the perfect way to begin to institute a world government, i.e. to have a demand for a global entity. You've provided a popular demand for a function that only government can do with its mandate on the use of force, which is the worst possible thing for liberty. It is so clever how this design leverages the Libertarians to help promote global governance. Makes me want to puke. And I am not going to stand idle and watch like a deer in the headlights. I am a real minanarchist-Libertarian (actually a contentionist) not like you mofos.

This is yet another in my long list of reasons to know with relative certainty that Bitcoin was planted by the powers-that-be who have for a long-time stated they intended for us to have a world government, i.e. the powerful group behind the launch of the failed League of Nations.

Bitcoin was well designed to have this outcome, because there are alternative designs for a crypto-currency which don't have this repudiation ex post facto weakness. I will be moving my investment (not from Bitcoin since I wasn't invested in it other than my effort to research it) to one of these superior altcoins soon.

You all can stay in the NWO coin. Have fun.

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March 01, 2014, 11:36:16 PM
 #208

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=493115.msg5454588#msg5454588

Here is a set of directions for the G20. I suggest that Wall Street Journal reporter who contacted me, can refer to this post.

hmmm the gox problem.

0) figure out the exact amount of missing coins and figure out where they went

Government directs through public announcements for users to document their stolen BTC, perhaps at a global entity website. Previously filed cases with local authorities can be forwarded.

1) verify which balance include part of the stolen ones

This can be automated. It is all on the blockchain. Mixers (a.k.a. laundries, tumblers, CoinJoin, etc) could simply pollute all outputs on the mixer.

2) Contact persons in possession by finding  actual Identities without infringing on rights....for which said agency is opening it'self wide for a class privacy lawsuit

You have no rights any more as the $150 trillion global debt bubble collapses society into a pancake chaos, because too many people are trying to hide assets from the onerous taxation and confiscation coming. The society will try to tax and claw-back as necessary in order to meet the impossible (bankrupted) obligations of the government. Observe carefully post-2015.

The NSA & GCHQ can correlate your identity (read all my posts in that linked thread).

3) prove that they actually are in my possession

Irrelevant. You are liable because you possessed. The law doesn't require you to still be possession.

4) gain access to my wallet
5) try to break my password, 215 characters
6) separate stolen from legitimate inputs

Not necessary. Just confiscate your real assets and auction them to recover the value stolen. Or garnish your wages.

7) figure out which gox customer exactly owned those particular coins
Cool manage to distribute each and every coin to its owner

Already explained in #0 above.

this all assumes i am in the U.S, now, in my country the U.S has no power

Keep dreaming of your Alice in Wonderland fantasy. Meanwhile the G20 has been ramping up their coordination to go after all those Europeans who have been hiding assets abroad. They've got to pay that unpayable $150 trillion debt somehow.

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March 02, 2014, 12:24:51 AM
 #209

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=493115.msg5455202#msg5455202

Maybe you should have (sold BTC above $1000) purchased some gold at the $1150 low, since it has no traceable ledger.

Yet I speculate there will be another dip closer to $1000 after this spring rally. Gold won't blast off until after 2015.

Quote
Gold is going to rise WHEN capital realizes that we have a geopolitical problem [after 2015] and there is uncertainly on the horizon as to what monetary system emerges afterwards. This is the real issue – not inflation. Plain and simple, gold reach $875 in 1980 and the Dow 1,000. The Dow has reached almost 17,000 and gold at its peak below $2,000. From a plain numbers game, the Dow was a far better hedge against “inflation” than gold since 1980.

See also:

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/02/24/gold-all-lathered-up-but-are-we-ready-to-go/

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March 02, 2014, 01:08:30 AM
 #210

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=493115.msg5455800#msg5455800

There is no such thing as a stolen bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not property.

It is a ledger with a set of rules. Those rules are determined by consensus and enforced by the protocol. If you choose to take part in the game, you agree to accept the validity of the rules, and any future changes to the rules as determined by consensus.

With bitcoin, the rule is unambiguous: Whoever validly signs the transaction, "owns" the bitcoin.  

You cannot claim to be a legal "owner" of some bitcoin if you do not have the ability to sign (ie. knowledge of private key) because the bitcoin clients/developers/businesses never made such a promise, implicitly or explicitly, and the above rule was clear from the start.

Just because around 2010 everyone started behaving as if it was property doesn't make it property.  The mtgox victims never actually owned any bitcoins. At best, they owned bitcoin IOUs. It's sad that they were misled by mtgox's marketing and that we failed to educate them better about the above.

If you think this is all just theoretical musings,  remember this:

Indeed the above is all theoretical bullshit that won't help you in reality. The law is the law. The will and power of society is what wins because BITCOIN IS NOT ANONYMOUS. And Mt.Gox's Terms of Service was (as I documented in a linked post in an upthread post) they were acting as an agent with YOUR bitcoin property.

Any bitcoin can be "dispropriated " by consensus.  Not by the government, not by the legal system, not by the police, but only by the protocol itself.

Irrelevant, the law can confiscate other real property and/or garnish wages, because BITCOIN IS NOT ANONYMOUS.

Notwithstanding that the consensus is already controlled by a few mining pools, which can easily be expropriated by the government either overtly or covertly.

if bitcoin were property in any legal sense those protocol changes would have been Illegal!

No. They would have gone to a judge for a fair ruling, if there was enough incentive, but apparently not enough people were harmed wrongly in order to bring it to court.

PS. I don't want to condone antisocial behaviour like the mtgox heists, but the solution should come from the protocol itself, eg. in the form of multisig and timelocked transaction. It should not come from wrongly treating bitcoins as property.

I agree one of the solutions is decentralized exchange, but this won't stop all the theft and criminal activities that are tainting Bitcoin in ever increasing proportions.

Only will be true with rock solid, widespread anonymity. And Bitcoin will NEVER have that!  Never.

Tl;Dr code is law

It could be, with rock solid, widespread anonymity. But Bitcoin doesn't have this and NEVER will.

Tl;Dr Repudiation is always possible if there is not rock solid, widespread anonymity.

Tl;Dr Code is law iff the identities of the participants can not be discovered.

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March 02, 2014, 03:20:08 AM
 #211

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=493115.msg5456994#msg5456994

Irrelevant, the law has to establish a case for bitcoin, which means accepting it as legal tender, which then means, law starts then. Which will nevr happen.

The underlined quoted text is unadulterated nonsense.

Quote
Notwithstanding that the consensus is already controlled by a few mining pools, which can easily be expropriated by the government either overtly or covertly.

Unless D.O.D comes up with a new really good ASIC, then manages to overtake the network before we can notice and react. Which falls to consensus yet again, ant dev will just roll back, switch algos place some new checkpoints and we'll continue, right where we left off. They can hold their "bitcoins" which we either invalidate, or they become worthless because the community that gives them value, has moved on.

Hahaha what naive fool you are. I won't even bother to explain.  Roll Eyes

Continue on in bliss boiling frog.

... rest of your nonsense not worth responding to...

I would not be surprised if new protocols and measures are introduced along with chain size reduction.

Hahaha, yeah the Bitcoin community is going to accept adding required strong anonymity to Bitcoin and the huge risk in change of legal status.

Just try.  Wink

You will learn what inertia and vested interests are.

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March 02, 2014, 05:38:36 AM
 #212

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=491181.msg5458015#msg5458015

long bullshit post

He appears to be saying buy Darkcoins while they're still low

Indeed those who deserve the NWO coin are lathered up in their groupthink due to salivating at the sight of multiple ZEROs following any non-zero digit.

They intellectually fail to connect the implications of whether those ZEROs will ever actually benefit them or instead an illusory trap of noisome woe and gnashing teeth.

https://www.google.com.ph/search?q=denver+airport+mural











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March 02, 2014, 05:42:31 AM
 #213




Nice Denver Airport Pics.


I'm sure they don't mean anything.  lol.


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March 02, 2014, 06:27:14 AM
 #214

...buy Darkcoins...

DarkCoin isn't anonymous.

Edit: follow-up.

Edit#2: Another followup.

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March 02, 2014, 07:01:20 AM
 #215



Nothing out there will be truly anonymous and if anything actually gets created it will be snuffed out in its crib in the name of National Security and your own safety.


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March 02, 2014, 07:26:27 AM
 #216

Don't give up before you've seen the white paper.  Wink

And don't ask me when and where you will see it.  Lips sealed

Remember what we said as kids, "That's for me to know and for you to find out".

Also factor in that the NWO coin will be much more widespread, and the government has limited resources, especially as the sovereign debt bubble bursts 2016ish. They know they can't get 100% perfection, or if they don't, they will soon realize that as their resources are finite.

As I said, let them have their NWO coin and their dying industrial age economy, with 6 billion members. We only need a million or so (10 or 100 million is fine too) for it to be sufficiently widely available.

And guess who will come out the other side of this global crisis with their capital intact and with a much larger valued economy? The 6 billion zombies or the 100 million Knowledge Age winners?

Do you realize how fast we can innovate as compared to the NWO coin.

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March 02, 2014, 07:37:25 AM
 #217

Don't give up before you've seen the white paper.  Wink

And don't ask me when and where you will see it.  Lips sealed

Remember what we said as kids, "That's for me to know and for you to find out".

Also factor in that the NWO coin will be much more widespread, and the government has limited resources, especially as the sovereign debt bubble bursts 2016ish. They know they can't get 100% perfection, or if they don't, they will soon realize that as their resources are finite.

As I said, let them have their NWO coin, with 6 billion members. We only need a million or so (10 or 100 million is fine too) for it to be sufficiently widely available.

And guess who will come out the other side of this crisis with their capital intact and with a much larger valued economy? The 6 billion zombies or the 100 million Knowledge Age winners?


Well, I own NWOcoin dot com, so they'll need to find a new name.

Bhahahahaaaa.  Always one step ahead.  lol.


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March 02, 2014, 09:28:09 AM
 #218

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=491181.msg5459843#msg5459843

Most insiders and heroes here dont share your conspiracy theories.

I didn't say they do. I said they do speculate the Satoshi was NSA. Don't conflate two orthogonal things.

I'm not a cypherpunk

I am.

but I am nevertheless able to handle a device which can't being linked to myself.

Tell me more about your method, so I can tell you why you are technically ignorant of the fact that you are linked by the NSA.

I know of only two current ways to be truly anonymous. That is to access the internet from either netcafe with no cameras or from a mobile device for which you have not registered you id, and which you have not used for any other purpose (and remember the device has an id too, not just the simmpak). And you need to be careful about being recorded on the numerous cameras and ways of tracking your location, e.g. license plate tracking and every car now has tracking secretly built in. Because wireless device location can be pinpointed with triangularization.

As I've read in other threads (in your totalitarian 'self-moderated(!) thread and the mad max thread) you dont understand the concept of society, economy, debt and growth.

Hahaha. You are referring to these threads:

Economic Devastation

Mad Max outcome

"Failure to Understand Bitcoin Could Cost Investors Billions" (Bitcoin's flaws)

You think the hypercomplex society/economy (that came about solely on the basis of additional debt which is enforced by organized violence of the state) could be maintained in a barter world where crypto currencies replace growing debt. This is mickey mouse economics.

I never said that. You have reading comprehension problems. Perhaps you didn't read my other thread, where I stated that currency is fundamental to the maximum division-of-labor.

No Money Exists Without the Majority

Cryptographics will destroy society/economy. That's the reason why I support it. I dont support it for the purpose of maintaining an endlessly rampant growing economy.

Since you've confirmed you are Malthusian idiot such as the Luddites, I can now dismiss you as delusional.

Btw, the economy and society have continued to grow since Mesopotamia until now. That won't stop.

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March 02, 2014, 12:05:21 PM
 #219

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=491181.msg5461032#msg5461032

I'm perfectly happy to have a serious debate about this. But before I do so you really do need to do some proper research. Until then, I think we're back to "ask your dad".

Stop playing hide&seek games and cite some case law.

I've already provided a resource which says nemo dat quod non habet applies in tracing into mixed funds.

Now it is your turn to cite something that refutes that. Otherwise you are just playing games.


DooMAD and crazy_rabbit, I'm happy if you convince yourselves to make the biggest mistake of life. Please proceed.

nemo dat quod non habet has been fundamental to Western civilization. You proceed in your Alice in Wonderland fantasy.

Besides the USA has succeeded in forcing every major country to acquiese to our FATCA law, which is much more intrusive into sovereignty than nemo dat quod non habet norms in western civilization.

DooMAD apparently you are in the UK and nemo dat quod non habet originates from your country.

I think you guys have a few screws loose.

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March 02, 2014, 12:17:20 PM
 #220

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=491181.msg5461622#msg5461622

a mad max-type collapse of the society on the actual level doesn't lead into the mother of all dark ages in the history of the societies (collectivism), but instead into a 10-20 years lasting interruption of a prospering society (collectivism) only. Really funny.

I must concede that the odds favor your outcome, but I am hoping the Knowledge Age cyberpunks can rejuvenate production. However, it is quite depressing to see how ignorant (tunnel vision, boiling frogs, zombies) most people are even here in these supposedly enlightened forums of libertarian white males.

In either case, we need a more anonymous crypto-coin. Bitcoin won't suffice.

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