[ActiveMining] Official Shareholder Discussion Thread [Moderated]

[tempestb]

The thing you guys are missing is that the MSD states that Ken must cease operating the investment fund and acting on the investment fund.  That means Ken cannot give you a dividend.  He cannot operate the fund any longer.  Refunds are yet to be spelled out, but the cease and desist clearly states that he cannot act on the fund any more...

"NOW THEREFORE, it is hereby ordered that Respondents, their agents, employees and
servants, and all other persons participating in or about to participate in the above-described
violations with knowledge of this Order are prohibited from violating or materially aiding in any
violation of Section 409.3-301, RSMo. (Cum. Supp. 2012), by offering or selling unregistered,
non-exempt securities; from violating or materially aiding in any violation of Section 409.4-
402(a), RSMo. (Cum. Supp. 2012), by transacting business as an unregistered agent; from
violating or materially aiding in any violation of Section 409.4-402(d)..."

By transacting business as an unregistered agent.

He cannot ever pay you a dividend or offer shares or buy back shares or anything with shares.  If he does, he's in violation and could go to jail and face stiffer fines.

What Ken will have to do is abandon the original share holders, and if he wants investors he will have to get them in the traditional way.  Which he won't do.


The only reason he's going to tell you that it is business as usual is because he doesn't want to pay for your refund. If you don't ask for one, the deadline will end, and then he can close up shop without paying you.

Use your head, get your refund when the MSD offers it.  This investment is dead.  The owner is legally barred from operating it.

[tom.hashemi]

The thing you guys are missing is that the MSD states that Ken must cease operating the investment fund and acting on the investment fund.  That means Ken cannot give you a dividend.  He cannot operate the fund any longer.  Refunds are yet to be spelled out, but the cease and desist clearly states that he cannot act on the fund any more...

"NOW THEREFORE, it is hereby ordered that Respondents, their agents, employees and
servants, and all other persons participating in or about to participate in the above-described
violations with knowledge of this Order are prohibited from violating or materially aiding in any
violation of Section 409.3-301, RSMo. (Cum. Supp. 2012), by offering or selling unregistered,
non-exempt securities; from violating or materially aiding in any violation of Section 409.4-
402(a), RSMo. (Cum. Supp. 2012), by transacting business as an unregistered agent; from
violating or materially aiding in any violation of Section 409.4-402(d)..."

By transacting business as an unregistered agent.

He cannot ever pay you a dividend or offer shares or buy back shares or anything with shares.  If he does, he's in violation and could go to jail and face stiffer fines.

What Ken will have to do is abandon the original share holders, and if he wants investors he will have to get them in the traditional way.  Which he won't do.


The only reason he's going to tell you that it is business as usual is because he doesn't want to pay for your refund. If you don't ask for one, the deadline will end, and then he can close up shop without paying you.

Use your head, get your refund when the MSD offers it.  This investment is dead.  The owner is legally barred from operating it.

Ken, could we get your comment on the above please? Specifically the first part - are you able to pay dividends?

[tempestb]

Note, that even if he registered these as securities you likely will not qualify as an accredited investor in the United States.  The law basically states that you need to have about 2 million dollars in net worth to be able to invest in such securities directly.  That is something that the SEC is working on changing due to crowd funding but the laws are not in place yet.  So he'd pretty much disqualify everyone here if he registered (Which he will have to do) and not to mention, everyone investing would need to register with the SEC and likely the MSD as well for that to happen.  I can't see too many people willing to do that.

Right now, he's barred from doing anything in relation to the investment fund.  That's what cease and desist means.  It doesn't mean "pay us a fine and then go ahead and keep breaking the law."

[kokoarm]

Note, that even if he registered these as securities you likely will not qualify as an accredited investor in the United States.  The law basically states that you need to have about 2 million dollars in net worth to be able to invest in such securities directly.  That is something that the SEC is working on changing due to crowd funding but the laws are not in place yet.  So he'd pretty much disqualify everyone here if he registered (Which he will have to do) and not to mention, everyone investing would need to register with the SEC and likely the MSD as well for that to happen.  I can't see too many people willing to do that.

Right now, he's barred from doing anything in relation to the investment fund.  That's what cease and desist means.  It doesn't mean "pay us a fine and then go ahead and keep breaking the law."

Good point, I read about that recently. Yes you actually need big money already to be allowed to invest to make more money. Very strange. So even registered we can  not legally get divs? OK this is now looking simply to be an impossible situation. I'm sure a further breech of Securities law and a breech of this ruling could get Ken a really strong punishment (beyond a fine) so even paying via CC would be out. The MSD regard bitcoin as a currency, ACM to be operating in MO not Belize, and the virtual shares to be bonafide Securities. Therefore they will say CC are also shares and obviously divs will be divs. This in my opinion is the final nail. Divs can never ever be paid to anyone by Ken Slaughter. The end.

All IMHO (ie please don't delete my views which are based on facts and the law and this MSD ruling)

[JoTheKhan]

(Not sure why I got deleted but there you go.)

Am I the only one that is seeing the same repeating patterns in this thread?

Lol, we are currently exiting the mass hysteria phase and seeing that give way to the next phase. It's around now that people start calming down and listening to the voices of reason.  Before you know it we discover Ken & Co have had a breakthrough and suddenly we're sitting pretty again.  Guys, this is far from over and there's plenty of time left for ActM to succeed.

As I suggested yesterday, the boil has been growing under the surface for some time.  A couple of days ago it reared it's ugly head and all we need to do is lance it.

This recent development IS actually good news and I'll hear nothing against that.  

If there are repeating patterns there must be several breakthroughs that have really left you guys in a great position, please list some.

+1 lmao

[noah tall]

The thing you guys are missing is that the MSD states that Ken must cease operating the investment fund and acting on the investment fund.  That means Ken cannot give you a dividend.  He cannot operate the fund any longer.  Refunds are yet to be spelled out, but the cease and desist clearly states that he cannot act on the fund any more...

"NOW THEREFORE, it is hereby ordered that Respondents, their agents, employees and
servants, and all other persons participating in or about to participate in the above-described
violations with knowledge of this Order are prohibited from violating or materially aiding in any
violation of Section 409.3-301, RSMo. (Cum. Supp. 2012), by offering or selling unregistered,
non-exempt securities; from violating or materially aiding in any violation of Section 409.4-
402(a), RSMo. (Cum. Supp. 2012), by transacting business as an unregistered agent; from
violating or materially aiding in any violation of Section 409.4-402(d)..."

By transacting business as an unregistered agent.

My interpretation of the above statement is that "Ken" (or his servants) cannot sell any additional shares.  The key phrase is: "by offering or selling unregistered, non-exempt securities"  This "order" doesn't say anything about dividends, refunds, selling mining equipment, negotiating with ASIC manufacturers, setting up a data center, or anything else.  It says "no more offering or selling unregistered, non-exempt securities".

[noah tall]

"...servants..."

Only in Missouri...

[noah tall]

My interpretation of the above statement is that "Ken" (or his servants) cannot sell any additional shares.  The key phrase is: "by offering or selling unregistered, non-exempt securities"  This "order" doesn't say anything about dividends, refunds, selling mining equipment, negotiating with ASIC manufacturers, setting up a data center, or anything else.  It says "no more offering or selling unregistered, non-exempt securities".

If you read on it says he is also prohibited from 'transacting business as an unregistered agent'. I would say that paying dividends on your Securities is very much transacting a business that is required to be licensed. So he must be licensed to pay dividends and so must his shareholders.

Nope.  Agent means "offering or selling unregistered, non-exempt securities".

--EDIT--

The MSD is concerned with "shareholders" (citizens) losing money, Why would they object to the company giving money to them?

[noah tall]

'Agent' means someone who acts in a role or someone who does something.

MSD enforce the law whatever that is and it says in black and white that he can't do Securities business unlicensed. If you think issuing dividends is not doing business in Securities you would be 100% wrong. The div bit is not specifically mentioned because by nature of NOT being allowed to do Securities business it is assumed everything that follows is banned. In other words everything that is part of a Securities business is banned.

Nope.  It's purely about selling.

"by transacting business as an unregistered agent; from violating or materially aiding in any violation of Section 409.4-402(d)..."

here is the text...

Missouri Revised Statutes
Chapter 409
Regulation of Securities
Section 409-004.402

(d) It is unlawful for a broker-dealer, or an issuer engaged in offering, selling, or purchasing securities in this state, to employ or associate with an agent who transacts business in this state on behalf of broker-dealers or issuers unless the agent is registered under subsection (a) or exempt from registration under subsection (b).

[knybe]

Geeeez…


there's way too much chicken-little-the-sky-is-falling speculation going in here at the moment.

MSD will give the instructions as to what they want done sooner or later so until then there's no reason to whip yourself up into a fury.


EDIT: btw, screw the minuscule dividends. gimme my refund and I'm OUT.

[sartech]

The thing you guys are missing is that the MSD states that Ken must cease operating the investment fund and acting on the investment fund.  That means Ken cannot give you a dividend.  He cannot operate the fund any longer.  Refunds are yet to be spelled out, but the cease and desist clearly states that he cannot act on the fund any more...

"NOW THEREFORE, it is hereby ordered that Respondents, their agents, employees and
servants, and all other persons participating in or about to participate in the above-described
violations with knowledge of this Order are prohibited from violating or materially aiding in any
violation of Section 409.3-301, RSMo. (Cum. Supp. 2012), by offering or selling unregistered,
non-exempt securities; from violating or materially aiding in any violation of Section 409.4-
402(a), RSMo. (Cum. Supp. 2012), by transacting business as an unregistered agent; from
violating or materially aiding in any violation of Section 409.4-402(d)..."

By transacting business as an unregistered agent.

He cannot ever pay you a dividend or offer shares or buy back shares or anything with shares.  If he does, he's in violation and could go to jail and face stiffer fines.

What Ken will have to do is abandon the original share holders, and if he wants investors he will have to get them in the traditional way.  Which he won't do.


The only reason he's going to tell you that it is business as usual is because he doesn't want to pay for your refund. If you don't ask for one, the deadline will end, and then he can close up shop without paying you.

Use your head, get your refund when the MSD offers it.  This investment is dead.  The owner is legally barred from operating it.

Ken, could we get your comment on the above please? Specifically the first part - are you able to pay dividends?

i would like to know the answer too, YES or NO... not from trolls/haters . cheers

[noah tall]

Geeeez…


there's way too much chicken-little-the-sky-is-falling speculation going in here at the moment.

MSD will give the instructions as to what they want done sooner or later so until then there's no reason to whip yourself up into a fury.

Agree 100%.

I was just having fun tearing apart an illogical conclusion before it gets too much traction.

The order says "don't sell any more shares and we'll get back to you later with more details".

[arousedrhino]

Here is a link to a copy of the Missouri Secretary of State Cease and Desist order which was sent to Ken Slaughter.

http://freepdfhosting.com/0d53fc3f43.pdf

The amount of restitution, and the formula which will be used to determine the restitution has not yet been determined.

It is pointless to argue whether or not government or lawyer involvement is a good thing or a bad thing. It already happened.

We all should read the cease and easiest order.

Several important points should be clear. The first is, the method and formula for restitution and fines has not yet been determined. And the second is, that the Office of the Secretary of State of Missouri might be influenced by good arguments from the community of share holders on how to determine restitution.

I am of the opinion that restitution should be made in Bitcoin, not in US currency, and that it should be at the rate of .0025 Bitcoin per share, to be paid either in bit coin directly, or at the exchange rate of the time of the cease and desist order, which is about $540 per Bitcoin.  

Contact information for the Secretary of State of the Missouri is available and from what I understand, they are receptive to data which could help in determine restitution.

Where will that money come from Lorenzo?


Its one thing to have everything liquidated and distributed to shareholders evenly. Its another to make an impossible demand. There is no way he can refund .0025 BTC per share. The money was spent, not wisely but spent nonetheless.

[noah tall]

an illogical conclusion

That's a bit unfair, I'm just reading the black and white and trying to explain it to you better so you can understand it. Don't shoot the messenger, I didn't write this decree. It's not exactly illogical to say he can't make a business transaction (pay divs) when he is banned from 'transacting business' (related to Securities).

I apologize.  I should have said "reach".

I am correct however.  They did not say to cease and desist all activities.  They just want him (or his servants) to stop selling more shares until further notice.

[tempestb]

What a great deal for people trying to raise cash.  First, sell millions in unregistered securities.  Then when you get caught, you pay a $22,000 fine and continue business as usual.

Somehow I think that isn't the intent of the cease and desist order.

You can't have unregistered securities, you can't sell them either or trade them.  It's all illegal.  They don't just fine you and say, "Don't sell any more.  But ok, you go ahead and do whatever you want with the ones you sold already."

If that was the case, everyone would do it and just pay the piddly fine.

[Jasun7211]

What a great deal for people trying to raise cash.  First, sell millions in unregistered securities.  Then when you get caught, you pay a $22,000 fine and continue business as usual.

Somehow I think that isn't the intent of the cease and desist order.

You can't have unregistered securities, you can't sell them either or trade them.  It's all illegal.  They don't just fine you and say, "Don't sell any more.  But ok, you go ahead and do whatever you want with the ones you sold already."

If that was the case, everyone would do it and just pay the piddly fine.

If this were the case then crypto stocks wouldn't exist.  That means basically every btc project would have been shutdown a looong time ago.  They are still investigating, and yes arousedrino is right. Kanders office is taking all info into consideration.  Trust me nit only do I know how they think....I know how they know.   If you write to them jist be curtious and nice.  Thats all

[tempestb]

Crypto Stocks can exist.  These laws only apply to the United States.  It's perfectly legal for a REAL Belize company to sell shares of unregistered securities on Crypto Trade.

It's illegal in the United States.  Why do you think this is going on? 

[Jasun7211]

Crypto Stocks can exist.  These laws only apply to the United States.  It's perfectly legal for a REAL Belize company to sell shares of unregistered securities on Crypto Trade.

It's illegal in the United States.  Why do you think this is going on? 

If you read carefully.  I said every btc project would have been shutdown a long time ago.  Of course I thought that we all understood US based projects was understood.   Anyway there are lots of American projects taking shares now.

[tempestb]

I honestly don't know what your point is.  If you think that American operations offering unregistered securities are legal because they are still doing it, than you are wrong.  It is not.  Just like stealing cars is illegal even though it still happens.  The SEC and various State organizations have limited resources and can only investigate so many of these things at any one time.  That doesn't mean they won't get to them eventually.

[Jasun7211]

I'm saying if this was a real issue this would have been done a long time ago.  Probably in the bct tc days