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Author Topic: Most Bitcoin will be clawed back due to widespread theft  (Read 14475 times)
davidgdg
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March 02, 2014, 04:08:12 PM
 #121

Will reply tomorrow

"There is only one thing that is seriously morally wrong with the world, and that is politics. By 'politics' I mean all that, and only what, involves the State." Jan Lester "Escape from Leviathan"
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March 02, 2014, 05:20:01 PM
 #122

This whole thread is built upon a fundamental misconception

You assume that there is a thing called "The Law" or "Legal System", which you conceive as being eternal, "underlying" as made out of stone.

Yet in reality there is no such thing.


You can go out on the street, pick some random person, force him by pointing a gun at his head to go to a "court" you have set up, and read to him the verdict, that his money is seized as illegal, because it belongs to the poor hungry people of Africa and was taken away from them by capitalism and imperialism. Chances are that that person will yield and hand over pocket money to you.

But in no way this makes your action legal. Nor did the person hand over the money because you where in right, but because of the gun.

Please note the important point:
You must not draw conclusions about the nature of the money involved here.
You may only draw conclusions about the nature and the meaning of the gun.


In a similar manner, you can imagine some state or legal system in the world declaring Bitcoin as illegal for reason of [insert random ideology here]. Then this state or legal system can use its mechanisms of power to seize Bitcoins whenever a user interacts with some entity under the control of this legal system.

Such actions can be quite effective for people entrapped in such a legal system, but this fact doesn't turn the provisions of such a legal system into an absolute truth. You might be drawing conclusions about the nature of such a legal system itself, but you can't use it as foundation for drawing conclusions about the nature of things like the Bitcoins involved.


The decision to handle and classify Bitcoins in a specific way is a political decision. It is pointless to use logic to derive what is the matter of fact in this respect.
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March 02, 2014, 10:57:43 PM
 #123

However, it is quite depressing to see how ignorant (tunnel vision, boiling frogs, zombies) most people are even here in these supposedly enlightened forums of libertarian white males.

I'm sure you mean well, but the things you're saying look like the exact opposite of enlightenment to most of the people in this thread.

DooMAD, I like what is linked from your signature. One mistake is you seem to assume that Bitcoin is the certain solution.

Okay it is quite clear now to me what is going on. If for example you study the linked website from DooMAD's signature and study his posts in that thread where he is debating me and factor in comments such as above, it is quite clear that the beta-males think they discovered the Holy Grail that can empower them to fight back (while getting rich at the same time!) and they are very butthurt when any one tries to tell them:

"Wait, the concept of decentralized crypto is great, but Bitcoin has serious flaws which render it incapable of giving you that win that you think you are getting".

I am here to make the decentralized cypto that will win.

I am not here to hang out with beta-male losers who can't comprehend.

Guys decide whether you want to follow the losers or the winners.

Be astute.

Signing off now. See ya at the winning coin. It will be up to you to find it in that sea of altcoin announcements. I won't be posting it here.

Clearly I'm not the one making the assumptions here.

I don't recall any of us stating that Bitcoin was going to be the only contender or that it was without flaw.  All we're saying is you've gone off the deep end by taking your "what if" scenario well beyond the realms of reality.  If they can't stop people torrenting movies and games, they won't be able to stop the flow of digital money.

While you're busy preaching to us about the flaws of Bitcoin, please try to consider the shortcomings of any coin you might deem technically superior.  True superiority is usually determined a range of different factors, but a fairly traditional factor would be an overwhelming show of numbers.  If you can get as many people using your chosen coin as are currently using Bitcoin, maybe you'll be on to something.  Until then, your guess is no better than mine or anyone else's.  That's all it is, guesswork.  No one here knows for certain what the future of crypto will be and I'm pretty sure most people here aren't putting all their eggs in one basket because of that fact.   The real beauty of crypto is that we don't have to stick with one individual coin.  In fact, there probably won't be a single "winning" coin.  If you think there will be, maybe you're the one missing the point of decentralised money.

I'm sure no one is going to mind if you want to take your "alpha" mentality elsewhere.   Roll Eyes

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March 02, 2014, 11:49:36 PM
 #124

Lots of mumbo-jumbo

however ...

BTC is not legal tender but clearly a BEARER INSTRUMENT

so, not affected in most countries

http://books.google.ch/books?id=uJxxMrf4MEkC&pg=PA244&lpg=PA244&dq=Nemo+dat+quod+non+habet+bearer+instrument&source=bl&ots=RNMPS9ew7Z&sig=6UxI9ljhlE7nsAZHMqR1dIRDdds&hl=de&sa=X&ei=CsETU8WLMMLnygP96oGwBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Nemo%20dat%20quod%20non%20habet%20bearer%20instrument&f=false

...because it is not practically possible to chase bearer instruments, that is why lawmakers all over the world agree on this (still I think a Darkcoin style currency would be a good thing; to protect innocent people from being traced in the real world after receiving tainted coins).

And it is clear why exchanges are so particular about KYC and origin of funds these days...

Case closed.

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March 03, 2014, 01:20:44 AM
 #125

This whole thread is built upon a fundamental misconception

You assume that there is a thing called "The Law" or "Legal System", which you conceive as being eternal, "underlying" as made out of stone.

He's delusional in many ways.

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March 03, 2014, 01:34:18 AM
 #126

MTGox has applied for "Civil Rehabilitation". Here is some information on possible "clawbacks"
Quote
What kinds of acts conducted by the debtor before the commencement of insolvency procedures may be deemed invalid after the commencement order is given, and thus shall be avoided in court?

A.    A court-appointed trustee (in bankruptcy proceedings and corporate rehabilitation proceedings) or a court-appointed supervisor (in civil rehabilitation proceedings) has the power to invalidate (avoid) acts taken by the debtor before the commencement of relevant insolvency procedures which are deemed to impair equality among the creditors and/or are against the concept of the insolvency proceedings.  The outline of the trustee’s/supervisor’s power to invalidate (avoid) such acts is as follows.

    First, any acts conducted by the debtor while knowing that it will prejudice its creditors, in other words, acts which reduce the debtor’s assets, may be avoided.  A typical example of this is the transfer of property with the aim of concealing or disposing of an asset at a low price.  However, if the beneficiary of such acts did not know, at the time of the act, that it would prejudice the creditors, the said act will not be avoided.  In that case, the beneficiary must prove that they had no knowledge of the possibility that such actions may be prejudicial to the creditor’s interests.

    Second, any gratuitous acts conducted by the debtor within six months prior to their becoming insolvent may be avoided.

    Third, any payment or provision of security interest to an existing creditor by the debtor after their becoming insolvent may avoided.  In other words, after becoming insolvent or the petition for commencement of insolvency procedures is filed, any payment or provision of security interest to an existing creditor by the debtor may be avoided if the creditor knew of the debtor’s insolvency at the time of the payment, or the provision of security interest.  In addition, any payment or provision of security interest to an existing creditor by the debtor within thirty days before their becoming insolvent may be avoided if the act is not a legal obligation at the time of the action.

    Where an act is avoided, the person who benefited from the act shall restore the assets of the debtor to its original state in principal, and their damage as a result of the avoidance shall be treated as an unsecured claim.  However, a right to claim for the counter-performance received by the debtor shall be paid prior to unsecured claims as administrative expenses.]Q12. What kinds of acts conducted by the debtor before the commencement of insolvency procedures may be deemed invalid after the commencement order is given, and thus shall be avoided in court?


https://www.jurists.co.jp/en/publication/tractate/article_10073.html

As far as I can see the answer in most cases is a resounding no to "bitcoin clawbacks"

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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March 03, 2014, 01:38:55 AM
 #127

As far as I can see the answer in most cases is a resounding no to "bitcoin clawbacks"

Did anyone even mention the legal fees to accomplish all this would probably be equal or higher than the Bitcoin market cap itself? lol

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AnonyMint (OP)
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March 03, 2014, 02:26:59 AM
Last edit: March 03, 2014, 03:20:05 AM by AnonyMint
 #128

I really want to sign off now, because I have programming work to do. So I hope this is the last time I need to rebutt here.

If they can't stop people torrenting movies and games, they won't be able to stop the flow of digital money.

And my point is I agree with you only if the coin has anonymity which the NSA can't subvert.

Bitcoin does not and will never have it.

Because we are talking about control of money, which is essential to governments' existence, so they will fight with every tool in their warchest. As they have been with 9/11 falseflag to foist AML and KYC laws every where. Now FATCA forced on all sovereign nations. Downloaded media has actually been a boon to Hollywood not an existential threat, and they aren't the government any way.

So as I said, you have a few screws loose in your ability to see reality. Perhaps you can tighten them.



This whole thread is built upon a fundamental misconception

...

The decision to handle and classify Bitcoins in a specific way is a political decision.

Exactly it is a political outcome and the fact of democracy is that it is a power vacuum and always controlled by the vested interests who control the money i.e. the banksters. And you thought I was disagreeing, because you conflate orthogonal issues as non-intellectual people do.



Did anyone even mention the legal fees to accomplish all this would probably be equal or higher than the Bitcoin market cap itself? lol

And you are too myopic or naive apparently to see that the real cost here is the loss of control of the money, which is an existential threat to government and vested interests. They will spare no expense and besides Japan is complicit state in their network. Haven't you seen that Rockefeller is often over there hobnobbing with the elite and government over there.



BTC is not legal tender but clearly a BEARER INSTRUMENT

so, not affected in most countries

http://books.google.ch/books?id=uJxxMrf4MEkC&pg=PA244&lpg=PA244&dq=Nemo+dat+quod+non+habet+bearer+instrument&source=bl&ots=RNMPS9ew7Z&sig=6UxI9ljhlE7nsAZHMqR1dIRDdds&hl=de&sa=X&ei=CsETU8WLMMLnygP96oGwBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Nemo%20dat%20quod%20non%20habet%20bearer%20instrument&f=false

...because it is not practically possible to chase bearer instruments, that is why lawmakers all over the world agree on this

You searched on a Germanic language Google, the english link is:

http://books.google.com/books?id=uJxxMrf4MEkC&lpg=PA244&ots=RNMPSafs85&dq=Nemo%20dat%20quod%20non%20habet%20bearer%20instrument&pg=PA244#v=onepage&q=Nemo%20dat%20quod%20non%20habet%20bearer%20instrument&f=false

This does not apply to Bitcoin because bearer instruments (e.g. physical ownership certificates without a name on them and no ledger) are an exception only because the law doesn't want to make illegal what it can't enforce, as it makes the law look impotent.

Bitcoin chain of ownership is very explicit in the public block chain (the public ledger), thus the law can very easily trace.

And remember we are talking about an existential threat to governments, so they will spare no effort.

I agree with you that anonymity is the way to defeat the government and make them go away.

However Tor, DarkCoin, CoinJoin, Zerocoin are all fundamentally (meaning can't be fixed) flawed.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.msg5474597#msg5474597
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=439357.msg5454853#msg5454853

Note I think Zerocoin has a very important role to play combined with my design for mixing, but not by itself.

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March 03, 2014, 02:34:53 AM
 #129

Because we are talking about control of money, which is essential to governments' existence, so they will fight with every tool in their warchest. As they have been with 9/11 falseflag to foist AML and KYC laws every where. Now FATCA forced on all sovereign nations.

Then we will fight in the shade, on indian reserverations.

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AnonyMint (OP)
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March 03, 2014, 02:46:54 AM
 #130

Because we are talking about control of money, which is essential to governments' existence, so they will fight with every tool in their warchest. As they have been with 9/11 falseflag to foist AML and KYC laws every where. Now FATCA forced on all sovereign nations.

Then we will fight in the shade, on indian reserverations.

And we need strong anonymity for that. We don't have it. And we won't have it in Bitcoin. Period.

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March 03, 2014, 06:12:00 AM
 #131

Because we are talking about control of money, which is essential to governments' existence, so they will fight with every tool in their warchest. As they have been with 9/11 falseflag to foist AML and KYC laws every where. Now FATCA forced on all sovereign nations.

Then we will fight in the shade, on indian reserverations.

And we need strong anonymity for that. We don't have it. And we won't have it in Bitcoin. Period.


Yes, we do.
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March 03, 2014, 09:02:42 AM
 #132

Because we are talking about control of money, which is essential to governments' existence, so they will fight with every tool in their warchest. As they have been with 9/11 falseflag to foist AML and KYC laws every where. Now FATCA forced on all sovereign nations.

Then we will fight in the shade, on indian reserverations.

And we need strong anonymity for that. We don't have it. And we won't have it in Bitcoin. Period.


Yes, we do.

Your post is ambiguous.

It is not clear whether you are saying 'yes' agreeing with the first or negating the second sentence.

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March 03, 2014, 10:42:30 AM
 #133

Price of Bitcoin has nothing to do with adoption.

Token Bubbles – Transforming the ICO Rating and Analysis Space.
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March 03, 2014, 10:45:50 AM
 #134

Quote
does this mean we really didn't land on the moon?

Kubrick also produced a lot of the nuclear weapons test films.
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March 03, 2014, 01:32:53 PM
 #135

I'm perfectly happy to have a serious debate about this. But before I do so you really do need to do some proper research. Until then, I think we're back to "ask your dad".

Stop playing hide&seek games and cite some case law.

I've already provided a resource which says nemo dat quod non habet applies in tracing into mixed funds.

Now it is your turn to cite something that refutes that. Otherwise you are just playing games.

" the original payer will have an equitable proprietary interest in the monies so long as they are traceable into whomsoever's hands they come other than a purchaser for value of the legal interest without notice."

 Westdeutsche Landesbank Girozentrale v Islington LBC [1996] UKHL 12 (22 May 1996) at p. 26 per Lord Browne Wilkinson

Your turn

Hahaha. You misinterpreted the decision. So now I know you are not an attorney. Rather the decision reaffirms the equitable interest in mixed funds even if the recipient "had no knowledge at any relevant time that the contract was void".

http://www.ucc.ie/law/restitution/archive/englcases/westdeutsche.htm

Quote
He held the money to be recoverable by the bank either as money had and received by the council to the use of the bank, or as money which in equity the bank was entitled to trace into the hands of the council and have repaid out of the council's assets. He decided that the bank's right to restitution at common law arose from the fact that the payment made by the bank to the council was made under a purported contract which, unknown to both parties, was ultra vires the council and so void, no consideration having been given for the making of the payment. The decision by the judge, which was affirmed by the Court of Appeal [1994] 1 W.L.R. 938, raised important questions in the law of restitution, which are of great interest to lawyers specialising in this field. Yet it is an extraordinary feature of the present appeal to your Lordships' House that the judge's decision on the substantive right of recovery at common law does not fall for consideration by your Lordships' House. The appeal of the council is confined to one point only - the question of interest.

Quote
The breadth of the submission

    Although the actual question in issue on the appeal is a narrow one, on the arguments presented it is necessary to consider fundamental principles of trust law. Does the recipient of money under a contract subsequently found to be void for mistake or as being ultra vires hold the moneys received on trust even where he had no knowledge at any relevant time that the contract was void? If he does hold on trust, such trust must arise at the date of receipt or, at the latest, at the date the legal title of the payer is extinguished by mixing moneys in a bank account: in the present case it does not matter at which of those dates the legal title was extinguished. If there is a trust two consequences follow: (a) the recipient will be personally liable, regardless of fault, for any subsequent payment away of the moneys to third parties even though, at the date of such payment, the "trustee" was still ignorant of the existence of any trust: see Burrows, "Swaps and the Friction between Common Law and Equity" [1995] R.L.R. 15; (b) as from the date of the establishment of the trust (i.e. receipt or mixing of the moneys by the "trustee") the original payer will have an equitable proprietary interest in the moneys so long as they are traceable into whomsoever's hands they come other than a purchaser for value of the legal interest without notice. Therefore, although in the present case the only question directly in issue is the personal liability of the local authority as a trustee, it is not possible to hold the local authority liable without imposing a trust which, in other cases, will create property rights affecting third parties because moneys received under a void contract are "trust property."

Good to see you doing a bit of research.

The Islington LBC  case concerns restitution of payments made under a void contract. Thus the decision itself was obviously not concerned with the rights of a bona fide purchaser without notice. However, the passage quoted is directly on point: "other than a purchaser for value of the legal interest without notice.". The legal phrase for such a comment is a "dictum".A dictum is a legally authoritative statement of principle in relation to an issue that does not form part of the decision itself, but which nevertheless carries weight.

Let me explain in a little more detail why you misunderstand the legal framework of bitcoin "theft".

1. The principle of nemo dat applies to certain types of property which are capable of "legal" ownership.

2. "Legal" ownership here has a narrow and technical meaning. It refers to a particular kind of right recognised by the common law.

3. If A has legal ownership of an item of property then, subject to certain limited exceptions (e.g. sale in market ouvert, sale by a buyer in possession), he retains that ownership if the property is wrongfully taken from him and even if it is transferred to an innocent third party.

4. The consequence of this is that if a third party receives the property, the original owner can sue the third party in tort for wrongful interference with goods (sometimes referred to as a claim in conversion) and can obtain an order that the goods be returned to him. This can have harsh consequences for innocent buyers.

5. Even a bona fide purchaser for value without notice has no special protection in a case where the original owner can assert a right to legal ownership in the requisite sense. Thus if I buy a stolen car then I am liable to be sued by the true owner even I bought it in good faith without realising it was stolen.

6. In limited circumstances, the law goes a step further and will even permit a claim to be brought by the original owner not only in respect of the original property but in respect of any subsequent property. This is known as common law tracing: the original property is "traced" into new property.

7. However, these rules (and allied rules for land and other types of property) only apply to things which are capable of being legally owned in the requisite technical sense.

8. This is where your analysis falls down.  Bitcoins do not fall into this category. The analogy with commodities is just that - an analogy. Bitcoins are not  tangible (or even intangible) goods in the technical legal sense and cannot be the subject of a claim for wrongful interference or conversion. They are not subject to the rules set out above. The closest analogy (though not a very good one) is probably money "in" a bank account (which is actually a contractual right enforceable against the bank) . As you well know, a "bitcoin" is simply a notional unit reflecting a ledger balance on the blockchain controlled by a confidential private key. It is far removed from tangible property to which the nemo dat and common law tracing principles apply.

9.  This does not mean that the law will fail to recognise the rights of a bitcoin owner. The dichotomy is a false one. It is very likely (though not perhaps completely certain) that the law will recognise and protect the rights of a bitcoin owner in some way.

10. How exactly it will do so has yet to be worked out in any jurisdiction, as far as I am aware. However, the protection of the rights of a bitcoin owner is very likely - in a common law jurisdiction - to be based upon the recognition of some equitable claim (perhaps deriving from the confidential nature of the private key or perhaps based upon the recognition of bitcoins as a novel species of equitable property). 

11. The significance of this is that equitable claims (of all kinds) are - unlike common law claims for wrongful interference with goods -  subject to the rights of a bona fide purchaser without notice. The quotation from Lord Browne-Wilkinson's speech in the Islington LBC case is not some novel principle. It is a fundamental principle of English (and U.S) trusts law that has been established for centuries. It applies to all  kinds of equitable claims, irrespective of the source of the equitable right.

12.  This is why the buyer of bitcoins will not be subject to the rights of the original owner unless he has notice that the coins were stolen.

13. For this purpose, "notice"  has a specific technical meaning. It does not mean there was something about in the newspapers. It refers to the making of such inquiries as are reasonable in the circumstances.

14. Ultimately what counts as notice would be a question of fact in each case, measured against the legal test. Evidence of usual market practice will be relevant. In the context of a bitcoin purchase the Court would consider what inquiries (if any) a reasonable purchaser would make.

15. The answer to that is of course that a buyer from an exchange or market place does not make inquiries as to the provenance of the bitcoins he is purchasing and it is highly unlikely that he would be expected to, even were it technically possible to do so. Thus in all ordinary circumstances the buyer of bitcoins will take free of equitable claims.

16. This does not mean that the original owner has no remedy. He will have a good personal claim against the thief (if he can find him). But the notion that the victim of a bitcoin theft will be able to bring an equitable tracing claim against any subsequent owner whose balance can be traced back to the theft, is thus false.

Thus for all usual cases, the premise of your original post is false.

 

"There is only one thing that is seriously morally wrong with the world, and that is politics. By 'politics' I mean all that, and only what, involves the State." Jan Lester "Escape from Leviathan"
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March 04, 2014, 06:14:15 AM
Last edit: March 04, 2014, 09:35:03 AM by AnonyMint
 #136

8. This is where your analysis falls down.  Bitcoins do not fall into this category. The analogy with commodities is just that - an analogy. Bitcoins are not  tangible (or even intangible) goods in the technical legal sense and cannot be the subject of a claim for wrongful interference or conversion. They are not subject to the rules set out above.

I challenge you to cite case law on this point, but you won't be able to because there has never existed before a decentralized intangible good. Satoshi invented it when he solved the Byzantine Generals problem (formerly a problem with no known solution since 1975).

The closest analogy (though not a very good one) is probably money "in" a bank account (which is actually a contractual right enforceable against the bank) . As you well know, a "bitcoin" is simply a notional unit reflecting a ledger balance on the blockchain controlled by a confidential private key. It is far removed from tangible property to which the nemo dat and common law tracing principles apply.

Not only is it not an analogy because legal tender is issued by a central authority, the future legal interpretation will be founded in the will of the majority.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=434744.msg5497044#msg5497044

That would be true if the general public agrees as they do with cash.

But the problem is cash is highly regulated and so grandmas don't just see their money go "and poof it's gone" from their bank account or when exchanging dollars for euros without some restitution.

The majority of the population is not going to accept our ideal of unregulated, decentralized wild west.

And the government has the legal authority to apply the nemo dat principle of our common law system to Bitcoin, because it is not legal tender, it is not sufficiently regulated by the government, and it is traceable forever.

We either add very strong anonymity so that the traceability is rendered impotent, or we succumb to the will of majority.

This is democracy. If you want to destroy democracy, then you must have anonymity. Period. That is all I am saying. It is fact.


9.  This does not mean that the law will fail to recognise the rights of a bitcoin owner. The dichotomy is a false one. It is very likely (though not perhaps completely certain) that the law will recognise and protect the rights of a bitcoin owner in some way.

10. How exactly it will do so has yet to be worked out in any jurisdiction, as far as I am aware. However, the protection of the rights of a bitcoin owner is very likely - in a common law jurisdiction - to be based upon the recognition of some equitable claim (perhaps deriving from the confidential nature of the private key or perhaps based upon the recognition of bitcoins as a novel species of equitable property).

It will obviously be an equitable restitution that "benefits" all Bitcoin holders. Don't you know democracy is there in your best interest and protects you.

Thus there will likely be two components to a popular and "equitable" restitution:


I hope you know the courts have been seeded with leftists. In the USA at least, this will likely be decided in the NY courts where the "Club" is in complete control of the outcome.

It will not be equitable to tell the naive masses in huge numbers "go fuck your butthurt self, your shit is gone". When your grandma loses her life savings, you too will likely start to bend your idealism towards the left.

Thus the Bitcoin millionaires will get raped and the Bitcoin middle class will get taxed into essentially a fiat system again.

Initially this might be done separately in separate jurisdictions. The chaos of this will cause the community to demand global unification. Thus Bitcoin without strong anonymity (as it stands now) is assisting the demand for global authority for governance and the dilution of national and local authority.

This is why I am reasonably certain that Satoshi was the NSA and Bitcoin was planted with this feature set and is being held at this feature set by the Bitcoin Foundation which is being controlled by powerful interest.

11. The significance of this is that equitable claims (of all kinds) are - unlike common law claims for wrongful interference with goods -  subject to the rights of a bona fide purchaser without notice. The quotation from Lord Browne-Wilkinson's speech in the Islington LBC case is not some novel principle. It is a fundamental principle of English (and U.S) trusts law that has been established for centuries. It applies to all  kinds of equitable claims, irrespective of the source of the equitable right.

The "bona fide purchaser without notice" can only exist if he is not also the victim.

And since "everyone" (in the eyes of the popular politics) will be stolen from eventually, "everyone" is both a bona fide purchaser without notice and a victim.

Thus doing nothing is not acceptable. Have you ever heard of a government which does nothing? If they did nothing, we would need governments. Governments always have to do something, so that we need them.

You are essentially asking a judge to rule that no one has any rights to restitution. No judge will stand for that concept.

12.  This is why the buyer of bitcoins will not be subject to the rights of the original owner unless he has notice that the coins were stolen.

The judge will recognize that notice is either useless or implicit as all coins would have notice. The judge will recognize that to do something equitable will require collectivism. There is no other solution which is equitable.

What we want in our ideal is a system that is not equitable, because we fundamentally understand that life is not equal. But that ideal of the Dark Enlightenment can only stand if we destroy democracy.

Do you think any judge is going to choose to destroy democracy? Ludicrous if you do.

13. For this purpose, "notice"  has a specific technical meaning. It does not mean there was something about in the newspapers. It refers to the making of such inquiries as are reasonable in the circumstances.

14. Ultimately what counts as notice would be a question of fact in each case, measured against the legal test. Evidence of usual market practice will be relevant. In the context of a bitcoin purchase the Court would consider what inquiries (if any) a reasonable purchaser would make.

Obviously if all coins are tainted, notice is futile. So either the court does nothing and abandons equitable restitution since increased regulation (to reduce theft) is technically impossible, or the court applies a fair mechanism to charge the cost of theft to insurance so as to smooth out the losses so the pain is not acute in individual scenarios, since over time all individuals will eventually be subject to (the risk of) theft. The government sees insurance as a very helpful vehicle and doesn't understand that it incentivizes an increase in that which it insures against.

This aids in the commerce in one sense, because the majority has less fear to hold and transact. So the judge will see this as a very normal and equitable way to help better the situation.

It is possible that private insurance is developed to ward off the need for state restitution. Yet remember that private insurance always ends up backstopped by the government. Because as I pointed out, insurance increases the activity which it insures against, thus it is a bankrupting paradigm. Evidence is for example the end game of Hitler's universal heath care, the coming end game of ObamaCare and universal health care in Europe.

15. The answer to that is of course that a buyer from an exchange or market place does not make inquiries as to the provenance of the bitcoins he is purchasing and it is highly unlikely that he would be expected to, even were it technically possible to do so. Thus in all ordinary circumstances the buyer of bitcoins will take free of equitable claims.

That a buyer doesn't normally do tracing on Bitcoins doesn't mean the judge will rule the de facto norm is legally correct.

The judge is going to see Bitcoins are form of unregulated cash, and compare+contrast with legal tender, since that is the closest analogy. The judge will clearly see an intractable problem due to the inability to regulate against theft because of the technical nature of it being decentralized. He will see that legal tender has much protections against theft because it is not decentralized. Thus he will see that he can't practically apply nemo dat on an individual basis and he can't leave it unregulated because that is lawlessness.

Unlike bearer instruments which are untraceable because they are physical (which is why they aren't popular, possessor beware applies because Grandmas don't use them), Bitcoins have this public ledger so everything is traceable. Thus it is empirically provable that all coins are eventually tainted. With legal tender this is true also, except the system is effectively able to regulate theft (well enough that Grandmas trust their money in bank accounts and exchanges). Yet with Bitcoins the only place that regulation can be applied is at the exchanges to/from fiat or the taxation of those who report Bitcoin income and/or capital gains.

Given those are only place to regulate, then the judge has to choose between lawlessness or applying the law at those choke points.

16. This does not mean that the original owner has no remedy. He will have a good personal claim against the thief (if he can find him).

The thieves are hackers and are almost never brought to justice. Thus it will become more and more popular to hack Bitcoins, especially as more naive Grandmas start using it. Thus you are asking the judge to defer to lawlessness. Grandmas versus hackers. Who do you think society will favor?

But the notion that the victim of a bitcoin theft will be able to bring an equitable tracing claim against any subsequent owner whose balance can be traced back to the theft, is thus false.

Thus for all usual cases, the premise of your original post is false.

You were thinking too-inside-a-box. See the broader, holistic analysis above.

My attorney father once remarked to me, "People are such linear thinkers, if A then B then C". Perhaps I inherited this out-of-the-box brain stem from him, although my mother is also a deep thinker.

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March 04, 2014, 06:22:22 AM
Last edit: March 04, 2014, 10:29:50 AM by atc1
 #137

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does this mean we really didn't land on the moon?

Kubrick also produced a lot of the nuclear weapons test films.
Grin
 But seriously,so much FUD being passes around here,it's unhealthy.

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March 04, 2014, 07:51:27 AM
 #138

How prophetic my analysis was! It is already being proposed:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=499071.0

I didn't read that before I wrote my analysis.

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March 04, 2014, 10:22:38 AM
 #139

How prophetic my analysis was! It is already being proposed:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=499071.0

I didn't read that before I wrote my analysis.

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March 04, 2014, 11:21:38 AM
 #140

How prophetic my analysis was! It is already being proposed:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=499071.0

I didn't read that before I wrote my analysis.

Your analysis in this thread claims (wrongly) that innocent purchasers of stolen bitcoins will be liable to return them.

The article you cite refers to the possibility of private insurance against accidental loss or theft of bitcoins.

I fail to see the link.

"There is only one thing that is seriously morally wrong with the world, and that is politics. By 'politics' I mean all that, and only what, involves the State." Jan Lester "Escape from Leviathan"
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