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Author Topic: The difference between science and religion  (Read 4905 times)
af_newbie
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September 21, 2018, 02:48:49 PM
Last edit: September 21, 2018, 03:15:51 PM by af_newbie
 #181


Teaching children that God created universe in 6 days, and that Earth 6000 years old is child abuse.  But I digress.


Actually the latest science says that a religious upbringing improves children's health into adulthood.

Religious upbringing may be protective factor for health, well-being in early adulthood
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2018/09/17/raising-kids-with-religion-or-spirituality-may-protect-their-mental-health-study/#68c6ba2c3287


Belonging to a social club, meditating and exercising all have the same effect, without a boogie man or Santa Claus.  Not sure what your point is.

I would not hire anyone who believes that Earth is 6000 years old, or believes that the religious scriptures are the "word of God", no matter how happy and social they are.

People who believe those things lack critical thinking skills and have poor judgement.


You can't do anything without God - not even belong to a social club - because He penetrates everything if only for the purpose of holding it all in existence. Go to the Scientific proof that God exists? thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.0 - to see that God exists, and how He controls everything.

People who do not understand that the Earth in its present, general physics form is only about 6,000 years old, might have skills that make them worth hiring, even if they have a different religion than you.

Cool

So I guess his 1755 earthquake in Lisbon (on All Saints day when all people were in church, the tallest buildings in the city) was a practical joke.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake

Nice going God...

Need I go on?  AIDS in newborns, flesh eating bacteria, cancer, birth defects...The list is endless of "his" creations.

The sooner you realize that there are natural forces at work, not the supernatural the better, for your own sanity.  Continue to ignore the obvious, it does not matter what you folks believe, the nature will continue to evolve, regardless of your belief in the Jewish Zombie myth.
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September 21, 2018, 03:45:13 PM
 #182

So I guess his 1755 earthquake in Lisbon (on All Saints day when all people were in church, the tallest buildings in the city) was a practical joke.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake

Nice going God...

Need I go on?  AIDS in newborns, flesh eating bacteria, cancer, birth defects...The list is endless of "his" creations.

The sooner you realize that there are natural forces at work, not the supernatural the better, for your own sanity.  Continue to ignore the obvious, it does not matter what you folks believe, the nature will continue to evolve, regardless of your belief in the Jewish Zombie myth.


Of course there are natural forces at work and yes they are a source of tragedy and suffering. In the larger scheme, however, such evils are the result of our ignorance and natural frailty they are also a very small relatively unimportant portion of the true evil that humanity suffers from.


The Three Kinds of Evil
https://www.ou.org/torah/machshava/the-god-papers/34-the-three-kinds-of-evil/
Quote from: Rabbi Jack Abramowitz
There are three kinds of evil in the world. The first is based on the fact that man is a physical and temporal being. Because of this, we are subject to physical ailments, whether based on weaknesses in our own constitutions or exposure to harmful agents in our environments. But creation and destruction go hand in hand; the same temporal nature that requires us to ultimately perish is also what enables us to come into existence. We therefore see that our physical nature, with all its limitations, is the result of God’s kindness. And, despite our limited natures, evils of this type are relatively rare. Most people are in fairly good health and physical defects are rather uncommon.

The second type of evil is the kind that people inflict on one another, such as by physically abusing others. These are greater in number than the first kind of evil but they are still not ubiquitous. It’s pretty uncommon for a person to scheme to rob or kill his neighbor. Large numbers of people can be affected by this kind of evil in wars but, again, these are relatively infrequent in the big picture of all inhabited countries.

The third kind of evil is the type that a person inflicts upon himself. This is the largest category of evils, far greater in number than those in the second class. Only a few people are not guilty of this kind of self-inflicted harm. This type of evil is spoken of by such prophets as Malachi (1:9 – “this has been of your doing”). King Solomon also wrote of it in Proverbs. For example, in 6:32 it says, “one who does this destroys his own soul,” while 19:3 tells us that “the foolishness of man perverts his way.” Solomon also discussed this topic in Koheles (Ecclesiastes). In 7:29 he tells us, “God has made man upright but they have come up with many thoughts.” These thoughts bring evil upon man.
The evils that a person brings upon himself are because of his vices, such as a desire for more food, drink and sex than is actually necessary. People engage in too much of these things, or they enjoy them inappropriately, and it causes them both physical and spiritual injury. Since the soul resides in the body, if one accustoms himself to superfluous amenities, he simultaneously conditions his soul to crave unnecessary things. This is especially bad when you consider that actual necessities are relatively few in both number and required quantities, while superfluous things are potentially without number.

People’s thoughts can become so twisted that they’re in constant agony over their inability to acquire as much silver or gold as someone else. They will expose themselves to great danger in order to acquire things they don’t really need. When they come to ruin through their own decisions, they blame God. They curse the circumstances they blame for their inability to acquire as much wine, women and song as money could buy as if the world exists solely for their gratification. Some go so far as to disparage God, saying the if He were able, He surely would have created a world more fair than this one.

Wise people, on the other hand, live their lives consistent with the words of King David in Psalms 25:10, “All the paths of God are mercy and truth to those who keep His covenant and His testimonies.” Those who keep their own role in the universe in context see God’s mercy and truth in everything. Rather than railing against God’s judgment, they seek to better understand His ways. Their needs are modest – food and clothing in limited quantities – and they are happy with their lot. In truth, all the self-inflicted injuries stem from a desire for that which is unnecessary, so that man cannot be satisfied that his actual needs have been met.

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September 21, 2018, 04:48:19 PM
 #183

1) If God created the universe, and everything in it... that includes evil

2) If God created evil, God cannot be omnibenevolent

If your god is defeated by simple logic, it probably doesn't exist
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September 21, 2018, 05:22:28 PM
 #184

So I guess his 1755 earthquake in Lisbon (on All Saints day when all people were in church, the tallest buildings in the city) was a practical joke.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake

Nice going God...

Need I go on?  AIDS in newborns, flesh eating bacteria, cancer, birth defects...The list is endless of "his" creations.

The sooner you realize that there are natural forces at work, not the supernatural the better, for your own sanity.  Continue to ignore the obvious, it does not matter what you folks believe, the nature will continue to evolve, regardless of your belief in the Jewish Zombie myth.


Of course there are natural forces at work and yes they are a source of tragedy and suffering. In the larger scheme, however, such evils are the result of our ignorance and natural frailty they are also a very small relatively unimportant portion of the true evil that humanity suffers from.


The Three Kinds of Evil
https://www.ou.org/torah/machshava/the-god-papers/34-the-three-kinds-of-evil/
Quote from: Rabbi Jack Abramowitz
There are three kinds of evil in the world. The first is based on the fact that man is a physical and temporal being. Because of this, we are subject to physical ailments, whether based on weaknesses in our own constitutions or exposure to harmful agents in our environments. But creation and destruction go hand in hand; the same temporal nature that requires us to ultimately perish is also what enables us to come into existence. We therefore see that our physical nature, with all its limitations, is the result of God’s kindness. And, despite our limited natures, evils of this type are relatively rare. Most people are in fairly good health and physical defects are rather uncommon.

The second type of evil is the kind that people inflict on one another, such as by physically abusing others. These are greater in number than the first kind of evil but they are still not ubiquitous. It’s pretty uncommon for a person to scheme to rob or kill his neighbor. Large numbers of people can be affected by this kind of evil in wars but, again, these are relatively infrequent in the big picture of all inhabited countries.

The third kind of evil is the type that a person inflicts upon himself. This is the largest category of evils, far greater in number than those in the second class. Only a few people are not guilty of this kind of self-inflicted harm. This type of evil is spoken of by such prophets as Malachi (1:9 – “this has been of your doing”). King Solomon also wrote of it in Proverbs. For example, in 6:32 it says, “one who does this destroys his own soul,” while 19:3 tells us that “the foolishness of man perverts his way.” Solomon also discussed this topic in Koheles (Ecclesiastes). In 7:29 he tells us, “God has made man upright but they have come up with many thoughts.” These thoughts bring evil upon man.
The evils that a person brings upon himself are because of his vices, such as a desire for more food, drink and sex than is actually necessary. People engage in too much of these things, or they enjoy them inappropriately, and it causes them both physical and spiritual injury. Since the soul resides in the body, if one accustoms himself to superfluous amenities, he simultaneously conditions his soul to crave unnecessary things. This is especially bad when you consider that actual necessities are relatively few in both number and required quantities, while superfluous things are potentially without number.

People’s thoughts can become so twisted that they’re in constant agony over their inability to acquire as much silver or gold as someone else. They will expose themselves to great danger in order to acquire things they don’t really need. When they come to ruin through their own decisions, they blame God. They curse the circumstances they blame for their inability to acquire as much wine, women and song as money could buy as if the world exists solely for their gratification. Some go so far as to disparage God, saying the if He were able, He surely would have created a world more fair than this one.

Wise people, on the other hand, live their lives consistent with the words of King David in Psalms 25:10, “All the paths of God are mercy and truth to those who keep His covenant and His testimonies.” Those who keep their own role in the universe in context see God’s mercy and truth in everything. Rather than railing against God’s judgment, they seek to better understand His ways. Their needs are modest – food and clothing in limited quantities – and they are happy with their lot. In truth, all the self-inflicted injuries stem from a desire for that which is unnecessary, so that man cannot be satisfied that his actual needs have been met.

If I had a son and I would disappear when my son was born, then I would tell him (in his dream) to worship me, kill other animals including humans in my name, and I would send all imaginable diseases so that he suffers pretty much all his life, send all imaginable natural disasters so that his family is killed and he suffers, and yet I would tell him to trust me, because I love him and I have prepared hell for him when he dies if he does not do what I tell him to do, would I be a good father?

Someone needs to call the Child Protective Services on this God of yours. LOL. 

This idea that God created evil to test us is as ridiculous as the idea of the God itself.  This whole notion is unnatural.  No sane human being would want to harm his/her children, yet God somehow finds it entertaining to do just that.  Is your God mentally unstable?

Think about before you regurgitate someone else's ideas.

PS. Never mind God's commands to own slaves, subjugate women, kill gays and nonbelievers or even people who work on Sabbath.  

 
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September 21, 2018, 07:44:29 PM
 #185


If I had a son and I would disappear when my son was born, then I would tell him (in his dream) to worship me, kill other animals including humans in my name, and I would send all imaginable diseases so that he suffers pretty much all his life, send all imaginable natural disasters so that his family is killed and he suffers, and yet I would tell him to trust me, because I love him and I have prepared hell for him when he dies if he does not do what I tell him to do, would I be a good father?

Someone needs to call the Child Protective Services on this God of yours. LOL.

This idea that God created evil to test us is as ridiculous as the idea of the God itself.  This whole notion is unnatural.  No sane human being would want to harm his/her children, yet God somehow finds it entertaining to do just that.  Is your God mentally unstable?

Think about before you regurgitate someone else's ideas.

PS. Never mind God's commands to own slaves, subjugate women, kill gays and nonbelievers or even people who work on Sabbath.  

 

All you are saying is that Protective Services is your God, and that they know how to raise your kids better than you do.

Cool

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September 21, 2018, 07:49:27 PM
 #186


So I guess his 1755 earthquake in Lisbon (on All Saints day when all people were in church, the tallest buildings in the city) was a practical joke.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake

Nice going God...

Need I go on?  AIDS in newborns, flesh eating bacteria, cancer, birth defects...The list is endless of "his" creations.

The sooner you realize that there are natural forces at work, not the supernatural the better, for your own sanity.  Continue to ignore the obvious, it does not matter what you folks believe, the nature will continue to evolve, regardless of your belief in the Jewish Zombie myth.


God protects his people.

God's people are the ones who believe in Jesus-salvation.

God even protects His people in death. He will give them new life in the resurrection. This life will take them to Heaven to be with Him in joy forever.

People who are not God's people will go to a tormentous destruction in Hell forever.

Cool

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September 21, 2018, 08:02:39 PM
 #187

1) If God created the universe, and everything in it... that includes evil

2) If God created evil, God cannot be omnibenevolent

If your god is defeated by simple logic, it probably doesn't exist

Ah the Epicurean paradox.

The argument that God should all prevent evil from existing is not well founded. Biblical scripture in fact explicitly states the opposite.

Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil;I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

Our understanding of evil is quite limited we suffer yes but we don't necessarily see the larger picture. For every evil act, there is a possible benevolent act that can undo its harm (if only the technology or wisdom was available).

The promise of such overarching benevolence is fundamental to Christianity which states that our evils have been paid for by another and that all wrongs will eventually be made right. The world to come in Judaism is a near identical belief if it less detailed on how said future comes to be.

Now perhaps you dismiss this ideal as fantasy. Regardless, it seems clear enough to me that the outlines of such a future could eventually be manifested into reality by any intelligent species including our own with sufficient faith, time, technology and determination. Indeed the very worship of God seems destined to bring it into existence.

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September 22, 2018, 11:26:27 AM
 #188

1) If God created the universe, and everything in it... that includes evil

2) If God created evil, God cannot be omnibenevolent

If your god is defeated by simple logic, it probably doesn't exist

Ah the Epicurean paradox.

The argument that God should all prevent evil from existing is not well founded. Biblical scripture in fact explicitly states the opposite.

You missed the point... Christians claim their god is omnibenevolent... which itself is a claim that god would prevent all evil from existing... it is not my argument, that is the Christian argument...

I have shown that an omnibenevolent god is an impossibility... that's how logic works, your god is contradictory and cannot exist

In a similar fashion, an omnipotent god is also an impossibility... god cannot make a boulder so big he can't lift it (or if he can, then he can't lift everything)... either way it is another paradox showing your god is contradictory and impossible to exist

If your god can be defeated so easily with logic... he definitely does not exist
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September 22, 2018, 11:59:47 AM
 #189

Both are parts of our life. No matter what we think about them, they regulate our daily life. Science and religions are together actually. Science is for the physical body and religion for the spiritual one. As you know, we are made of flesh and spirit. Nobody has ever proved that we are made of spirits. We can see our flesh. We cannot see our spirit. We can feel it. When we dream, we know what we can see and we understand that we are not only flesh and bones. It is thus obvious that science and religion must work together to discover and solve the mysteries of our civilizations. They must not fight but cooperate.
absolutely, for me, the difference between the two is science believe in scientific bases and studying living and non living things while religion believes that God created all living things and non living things.

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September 22, 2018, 12:55:28 PM
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 #190

For every evil act, there is a possible benevolent act that can undo its harm (if only the technology or wisdom was available).

So what you are saying, is for every evil thing your God chose to create*, there is some technological advancement that we are yet to make that will undo its harm. So basically, science will fix the evil mess your God left behind? Got it.



*Evil your God created for no good reason, by the way. He could quite easily have created a universe that doesn't include (as a tiny example):
1 - Cancer in children, causing pain, suffering and often death
2 - A parasitic worm that burrows out through children's eyeballs and makes them go blind
3 - Children being transmitted HIV from their mothers during birth

If you assume a god did create this universe, he/she/it is clearly monstrous, and deserves no respect or worship whatsoever.

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September 22, 2018, 04:54:35 PM
 #191

1) If God created the universe, and everything in it... that includes evil

2) If God created evil, God cannot be omnibenevolent

If your god is defeated by simple logic, it probably doesn't exist

Don't be too sure your logic is objective. God created man in his imaage and after his likeness. This means that since God is a creator, man is also a creator. If man being a creator decided to go against God in handling the Earth, a home which God developed for him, don't you think he will destroy the Earth and himself with his God given ability?
Why do you go through a driving test before you get drivers license???
Or diverse rigorous training and test before you get any certification or endorsement??? It's simple! It's simple. Man knows you can destroy others and yourself with those things. So the Earth is man's training ground friends and those who were able to pass the tests gets liscesed to go to heaven. Those who were not submissive to the training process wouldn't make it. It's that simple friends.
Imagine when your institution sends you to your faculty and you refuse to take lectures in your discipline, and rather go to a friend's cos you think the vice Chancellor should come and clerify some issues to you personally. No matter how excellent you argument may be you are never going to score any point in exams.
Imagine when you buy a Ford car and you are using volks wagen parts for it's maintenance you are surely headed for an auto crash or because their are different car designs you decided not to use any car cos of reasons best known to you, who looses?

There is God friends and he is democratic in nature. Was there democracy and advocacy for respect of people and their territories anywhere in the world before the emergence of America? And yet America is the only nation of the world founded by Christians, that is why they are projecting the image of God, liberalism. God is a liberal God, that is why he has allowed all the confusion that characterised his existence. But surely a day will come when he will put an end to it. Be careful friends so that on that day you wouldn't just realized how ignorant you have been of your maker. Don't even try to feel guilty or remorseful that day cos it's only logical that nothing emerges from nowhere.

Would a Mercedes car being used on raods with holes in underdeveloped Africa blame it's maker for it's ordeal? When you have an open mind, looking around you, you will see pointers to God's existence.
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September 22, 2018, 05:44:41 PM
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 #192

Why do you go through a driving test before you get drivers license???

That would be a good point, if it weren't completely nonsense. What about all the children who are born with incurable diseases and die in infancy? That's not exactly a fair test. What about the millions of people who born, live and die without having ever even heard of Christianity? They all get punished for eternity because an accident of geography?

There is God friends and he is democratic in nature. Was there democracy and advocacy for respect of people and their territories anywhere in the world before the emergence of America? And yet America is the only nation of the world founded by Christians, that is why they are projecting the image of God, liberalism.

Wrong again. Ancient Greece had democracy by 500 BC.

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September 22, 2018, 06:06:30 PM
 #193

So what you are saying, is for every evil thing your God chose to create*, there is some technological advancement that we are yet to make that will undo its harm. So basically, science will fix the evil mess your God left behind? Got it.

In the long run the moral truth is more important then the technological truth. Science is just a cooperative social system. It's really just time and effort applied in a systemic way. What matters more then science is the foundation science is built upon. What sustains science and keeps its ends directed towards the good? Get that right and the technological progress will fall into place.

If you assume a god did create this universe, he/she/it is clearly monstrous, and deserves no respect or worship whatsoever.

Why did God create a universe that allows for human suffering? Perhaps because understanding and then overcoming evil is necessary to achieve the highest good.

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September 22, 2018, 06:11:39 PM
 #194

Why did God create a universe that allows for human suffering? Perhaps because understanding and then overcoming evil is necessary to achieve the highest good.

Right. So instead of just creating humans who are capable of achieving the "highest good" on their own, which an omnipotent god would easily be able to do, he decided instead to condemn millions of innocent children to a life of torment and suffering.

Your God is a maniac, and you are morally bankrupt if you try to justify children suffering in the name of "the greater good".

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September 22, 2018, 06:23:27 PM
 #195


You missed the point... Christians claim their god is omnibenevolent... which itself is a claim that god would prevent all evil from existing... it is not my argument, that is the Christian argument...


Yes and I replied highlighting the problems with this logic.

Omnibenevolence does not demand God prevent all evil from existing.

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September 22, 2018, 06:36:18 PM
 #196

Why did God create a universe that allows for human suffering? Perhaps because understanding and then overcoming evil is necessary to achieve the highest good.

Right. So instead of just creating humans who are capable of achieving the "highest good" on their own, which an omnipotent god would easily be able to do, he decided instead to condemn millions of innocent children to a life of torment and suffering.

Your God is a maniac, and you are morally bankrupt if you try to justify children suffering in the name of "the greater good".

Are you equally torn up about the millions of animals killed in terror every day to feed humanity or the plants ripped from the ground and consumed to feed those animals?

The natural world is full of evil and good. The fundamental difference between humans and those animals is that we alone have knowledge of good and evil.

With this knowledge comes the power to transform it. To rectify and redeem the evil in ourselves and in so doing become something more then a hyper intelligent animal.

The world is not a permanent playpen for our coddling and amusement. It is a reality that calls to us and demands we grow into something better then what we are.

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September 22, 2018, 06:53:44 PM
 #197

Are you equally torn up about the millions of animals killed in terror every day to feed humanity or the plants ripped from the ground and consumed to feed those animals?

You completely dodged the point. It would also have been equally trivial for an omnipotent god to create a human that did not require to eat any living thing for sustenance.

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September 22, 2018, 07:16:38 PM
 #198


You missed the point... Christians claim their god is omnibenevolent... which itself is a claim that god would prevent all evil from existing... it is not my argument, that is the Christian argument...


Yes and I replied highlighting the problems with this logic.

Omnibenevolence does not demand God prevent all evil from existing.

If he created everything, as you claim, he is ultimately responsible.  Flesh eating bacteria, HIV in babies etc.

He is a psychopathic criminal to "create" such a world.

Actually, that is another indication that the world was not created by any intelligent being. 

No intelligent being would create the world the way your God "created" it.

No mental gymnastics can help you here.  Face it.
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September 22, 2018, 09:19:30 PM
 #199


You missed the point... Christians claim their god is omnibenevolent... which itself is a claim that god would prevent all evil from existing... it is not my argument, that is the Christian argument...


Yes and I replied highlighting the problems with this logic.

Omnibenevolence does not demand God prevent all evil from existing.

If he created everything, as you claim, he is ultimately responsible.  Flesh eating bacteria, HIV in babies etc.

He is a psychopathic criminal to "create" such a world.

Actually, that is another indication that the world was not created by any intelligent being. 

No intelligent being would create the world the way your God "created" it.

No mental gymnastics can help you here.  Face it.


But you of all people know that God created things perfect, and that it was mankind voluntarily and knowingly eating the fruit in the Garden that started the chain of destruction among people.

And here you are, knowing that God exists, and that God has provided salvation in Jesus, but making the destruction worse by not acknowledging Him, and by trying to talk others into not accepting Him.

So you prove that your atheism is simply a religion, and that science that believes unknown things (science theories) as truth, has turned science into a religion.

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September 22, 2018, 09:31:20 PM
 #200

But you of all people know that God created things perfect, and that it was mankind voluntarily and knowingly eating the fruit in the Garden that started the chain of destruction among people.

So because Adam ate a fruit, God created an insect that burrows in to the eyes of millions of children and makes them go blind.

Your God is a lunatic.

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